• Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
permaculture forums growies critters building homesteading energy monies kitchen purity ungarbage community wilderness fiber arts art permaculture artisans regional education skip experiences global resources cider press projects digital market permies.com private forums all forums
this forum made possible by our volunteer staff, including ...
master stewards:
  • Anne Miller
  • Nicole Alderman
  • r ranson
  • Pearl Sutton
  • Mike Haasl
  • paul wheaton
stewards:
  • Joylynn Hardesty
  • Dave Burton
  • Joseph Lofthouse
master gardeners:
  • jordan barton
  • Greg Martin
gardeners:
  • Carla Burke
  • Ash Jackson
  • Kate Downham
 
Posts: 177
1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

paul wheaton wrote:what have i left out?



I don't think you've left things out, but except for the hugelbeds, I don't think there enough linear progression from 1 badge to the next.
 
pollinator
Posts: 457
Location: Utah
125
cat forest garden fungi foraging food preservation bee medical herbs writing greening the desert
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

William Schlegel wrote:"all of this is completed without imports (except seeds) from more than 500 feet away" Here is a quote from the second badge level. To do the second badge level with this requirement on my current property I would need to plant some poplars where I plan to do a future Hugel and wait! Or do it somewhere else.



I've seen this concern a number of times in the comments. I think it could be easily qualified by saying "from more than 500 feet away from the property." That puts all resources from your OWN property (or property you manage) within range.
 
master steward
Posts: 8723
Location: Northern WI (zone 4)
2515
hunting trees books food preservation solar woodworking
  • Likes 6
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Also, please keep in mind that this is the PEP program.  Which is Permaculture Experience according to Paul and is oriented very heavily towards his site.  Many of the things in PEP won't work well in other climates or an urban environment.  

That's where the PEL program could take over.  Or the PEM program.  That is, Lauren's version or Mike's version.  Lauren's might be specifically for conditions in her area of Utah.  Mine might be a really good program for cold forested areas.  Mine wouldn't have any excavator use in it (since I don't have one) but it might focus more on things like cordwood construction, foraging, maple syrup, etc.
 
Lauren Ritz
pollinator
Posts: 457
Location: Utah
125
cat forest garden fungi foraging food preservation bee medical herbs writing greening the desert
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Mike Jay wrote:That's where the PEL program could take over.  Or the PEM program.  That is, Lauren's version or Mike's version.  Lauren's might be specifically for conditions in her area of Utah.  Mine might be a really good program for cold forested areas.  Mine wouldn't have any excavator use in it (since I don't have one) but it might focus more on things like cordwood construction, foraging, maple syrup, etc.



My point is that there are many people in other environments who could easily use PEP with just a few minor wording changes. Several have said this is good for them who are in very different environments, which tells me that the list and structure WORKS for a large number of people. Without changing any part of the intent, this could reach a much broader base. By changing "within 500 feet" to "on the property" it is opened up to people who have much larger properties while maintaining the intent of not using imported materials.

My own structure would probably be PESD (Permaculture Experience Small scale Desert) rather than PEL, just because people are going to look at the L and say "who's that?" And for those who read aloud, PESD might make someone laugh.
 
pollinator
Posts: 2085
Location: 4b
498
dog forest garden trees bee building
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

paul wheaton wrote:
   - at least three sunchokes
   



I think anyone that builds a hugelkultur with at least three sunchokes is soon going to have a hugelkultur with a monocrop of sunchokes :)
 
Mike Haasl
master steward
Posts: 8723
Location: Northern WI (zone 4)
2515
hunting trees books food preservation solar woodworking
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Good point Lauren.  Having PEP as broad as Paul is willing would enable it to be completed by more people in more places.
 
Jesus Martinez
Posts: 177
1
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Trace Oswald wrote:

paul wheaton wrote:
   - at least three sunchokes
   



I think anyone that builds a hugelkultur with at least three sunchokes is soon going to have a hugelkultur with a monocrop of sunchokes :)



Not if you have a good underground rodent population.
 
pollinator
Posts: 120
Location: Central Indiana
22
kids books homestead
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I could totally get behind this, but my questions is, Sepp's grain specifically?  Does it have a name and somewhere i could acquire it?  I'm looking for something good to build my soil.  

Big side question: Have you done a separate post about Sepp's grain?  I've seen you show it off in the videos from time to time and talk about it but i wasn't sure if it had a post of its own with information about how/what it does to build soil vs others of its type, grow zones, water/heat tolerance, disease issues ect.

Thanks in advance.
 
Jonathan Ward
pollinator
Posts: 120
Location: Central Indiana
22
kids books homestead
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Forget my previous post.  I found the thread about Sepp's grain.
 
Posts: 98
Location: Frederick, MD zone7b
26
kids duck bee homestead
  • Likes 3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Reading this makes me wonder about including tasks related to enhancing pollinators and beneficial insects and birds. I saw earlier that Mike said bug hotels and such might be in animal husbandry. Is that accurate? Because planting for polinators and good bugs is an important aspect of gardening. With honeybees as major pollinators being threatened it seems critical to ensure that any education or certification or badge that is designed to promote permaculture should make sure to include them.

Save the bees!
 
Mike Haasl
master steward
Posts: 8723
Location: Northern WI (zone 4)
2515
hunting trees books food preservation solar woodworking
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I'm pretty sure that planting for the bugs will be somewhere in the PEP system.  Either in critter care or gardening.  Bug hotels could go in critter care or in woodworking.  There's lots of overlap so as long as we don't miss something, we'll be all set
 
pollinator
Posts: 469
Location: zone 4b, sandy, Continental D
128
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Trace Oswald wrote:

paul wheaton wrote:
   - at least three sunchokes
   


I think anyone that builds a hugelkultur with at least three sunchokes is soon going to have a hugelkultur with a monocrop of sunchokes :)




;-) Maybe not: If you have deer, they seem to relish the young sunchoke sprouts like I relish asparagus. I once [only once] had the great idea of growing Jerusalem artichoke in my garden. Thank goodness my soil is super sandy or I would still be chasing them outa there! It took me 3 years of really going after them to remove them from my garden.
But I really like sunchokes, so I planted them outside of the garden, thinking I could make a hedge of them on the west side of the orchard. Since they are in the sunflower family, I was dreaming that my bees would have sunchoke blossoms to work. The deer discovered the nascent hedge and they went methodically north to south and ate them all up. Later, they came back [the sunchokes] ...but so did the deer. The sunchokes eventually lost. :-(
 
Posts: 68
Location: West Michigan Zone 5
15
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Cécile Stelzer Johnson wrote:

Trace Oswald wrote:

paul wheaton wrote:
   - at least three sunchokes
   


I think anyone that builds a hugelkultur with at least three sunchokes is soon going to have a hugelkultur with a monocrop of sunchokes :)




;-) Maybe not: If you have deer, they seem to relish the young sunchoke sprouts like I relish asparagus. I once [only once] had the great idea of growing Jerusalem artichoke in my garden. Thank goodness my soil is super sandy or I would still be chasing them outa there! It took me 3 years of really going after them to remove them from my garden.
But I really like sunchokes, so I planted them outside of the garden, thinking I could make a hedge of them on the west side of the orchard. Since they are in the sunflower family, I was dreaming that my bees would have sunchoke blossoms to work. The deer discovered the nascent hedge and they went methodically north to south and ate them all up. Later, they came back [the sunchokes] ...but so did the deer. The sunchokes eventually lost. :-(




I must have  a deer and rodent deficit then, what started out as an 1.5 by 2 ft  patch has taken over about 200 sq ft of my garden.  The idea of planting them anywhere else in my yard gives me hives, but they are very pretty in bloom.
 
Posts: 132
Location: winston oregon
cattle forest garden greening the desert
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
chinampas and terraces that are strong enough for cattle and deeper/bigger than a waru waru. integration with critters.
and the deviant versions of the above and hugelkultur.
dew catchment "arrays"
interesting usages of plants. plant reacherch on guilds and such
variants of food forests frost catchements using plants and such (some of this could also be applied to earthworks)
documentation of speed of work over long periods

for another badge type content creation might be an important one

scale is quite important, like what scale operations have you created/ managed

business could cover sales and such... 1 am here so creativity is up at the expense of sanity

something about planting crops in animal pasture

systems that paul or mods approve of

you could also do a badge about programming and such for like work ethic and such

sub badges for specific niches that are within the badges... have you asked geoff about this yet or any of the other lords dukes and david holmgren some sort of more detailed certification for pdcs would be nice like what teachers you have learned from and what you learned...

yep this is deteriorating gn all
 
Mike Haasl
master steward
Posts: 8723
Location: Northern WI (zone 4)
2515
hunting trees books food preservation solar woodworking
  • Likes 3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I believe I've just completed the Gardening badge.
Ruth Stout Composting
Build a hugelcultur
Chop and drop
Staff note (Mike Barkley) :

Well done Mike. I certify this badge.

 
Posts: 44
Location: Texas Zone 9
3
forest garden trees rabbit chicken food preservation bee medical herbs homestead
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
What about starting fruit/nut/soil-building trees/shrubs from cuttings?  I just started 51 fruit tree cuttings.  It'll be a few weeks before I know how many of them "took", but already quite a few are showing new growth, and at least one already had a small root on it when I potted it up.

For Texas, Texas mountain laurel, Texas redbud, and retama (palo verde) are good, native leguminous trees.  I would like to propose a Texas version (maybe more than one--we have seven different climates in Texas) that includes growing one of those three, either from cuttings or seeds (Texas mountain laurel, in particular, is very slow-growing).  I hesitate to include mesquite because of its invasiveness.
 
master steward
Posts: 32713
Location: missoula, montana (zone 4)
hugelkultur trees chicken wofati bee woodworking
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Rosie Carducci wrote:What about starting fruit/nut/soil-building trees/shrubs from cuttings?  I just started 51 fruit tree cuttings.  It'll be a few weeks before I know how many of them "took", but already quite a few are showing new growth, and at least one already had a small root on it when I potted it up.

For Texas, Texas mountain laurel, Texas redbud, and retama (palo verde) are good, native leguminous trees.  I would like to propose a Texas version (maybe more than one--we have seven different climates in Texas) that includes growing one of those three, either from cuttings or seeds (Texas mountain laurel, in particular, is very slow-growing).  I hesitate to include mesquite because of its invasiveness.



Is this a question about a specific BB?
 
steward
Posts: 5987
Location: United States
2541
transportation forest garden tiny house books urban greening the desert
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
These are my BB's for the Sand Badge in Gardening:
Build a Hugelkultur BB
Chop and Drop
Ruth Stout Gardening
Staff note (Mike Haasl) :

Congratulations, you now have your Gardening Sand badge!

 
gardener & hugelmaster
Posts: 1959
Location: mountains of Tennessee
766
cattle hugelkultur cat dog trees hunting chicken bee homestead ungarbage
  • Likes 3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator


I finished this 7 foot hugel today. I think that completes the sand badge.

I was certified for the other gardening sand badge BBs at the links below.

https://permies.com/wiki/10/98575/PEP-BB-gardening-sand-chopndrop#951928

https://permies.com/wiki/10/98577/PEP-BB-gardening-sand-RuthStout#892748

Staff note (Mike Haasl) :

Congratulations on your first badge!

 
Mike Barkley
gardener & hugelmaster
Posts: 1959
Location: mountains of Tennessee
766
cattle hugelkultur cat dog trees hunting chicken bee homestead ungarbage
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
The brainstorm gardening badge thread seems to be hiding good this morning so I'm adding some old forgotten notes here before they get lost too.

https://permies.com/wiki/122923/PEP-BB-gardening-straw-volunteerplants

Is there a space requirement for this? Do they all need to be together or can they be spread among a few locations in & around a garden area? All the same season or can there be spring & fall examples? Do the volunteers have to be vegetables? Would unharvested peanuts that sprouted the following year qualify as volunteers? Do different types of volunteer beans count as multiple volunteers? Same question for other veggies. Can some of it be primarily animal food rather than human food? Sorry for all the questions. Trying to clarify the situation. All sorts of wild & volunteer things growing here. Not sure how to do their photo op.


https://permies.com/wiki/103224/PEP-BB-gardening-straw-hugelkultur

Does extending the sand badge hugelkultur to meet the length requirement for the straw hugelkultur qualify? Seems like it does but that might not be the PEP/PEX intention. Or does that require a whole new one? I noticed the iron badge specifically states 6 hugelbeds.

 
Mike Haasl
master steward
Posts: 8723
Location: Northern WI (zone 4)
2515
hunting trees books food preservation solar woodworking
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Hi Mike, my impression/assumption is that the volunteer and wild plants need to be near enough to one another to be considered a polyculture.  I'd also presume that three different types of bean wouldn't cut it.  But a bean, a pea and a peanut probably would.  I'd think spring and fall examples living in the same polyculture would be splendid.  I'm pretty sure fruits, veggies, animal fodder, medicine, fiber etc plants would fit the bill.  If it's a seasonality thing, I'd take pictures from the same spot with some clear landmarks so that as the plants and seasons change, the evaluator can know that you're showing off the same bit of ground.

For the hugelkulture I'm guessing you can extend an existing one.  But you have to add at least 12 more feet.  I'd almost propose that you should add a modest amount more because the existing hugel is occupying a fair bit of space that a freestanding hugel would have at one end.  Per my crude sketch, the brown is the Sand badge hugel and the green one is the Straw.  The area in yellow is why I'm thinking a longer hugel would be more fair.  But I'm not sure.
Straw-hugel.png
[Thumbnail for Straw-hugel.png]
 
gardener
Posts: 3045
Location: Southern Illinois
561
transportation cat dog fungi trees building writing rocket stoves woodworking
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

what have i left out?



How about some sand or straw level badge for composting, Hot compost, mushroom compost, bokashi style, etc?
 
gardener
Posts: 541
Location: British Columbia
370
monies home care forest garden foraging chicken wood heat homestead ungarbage
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I believe I have my Sand badge!

Chop & Drop
Hugel Building
Ruth Stout Composting
Staff note (Mike Haasl) :

Congratulations on your spiffy new badge!

 
Posts: 109
Location: So Cal - Inland Empire
23
foraging rabbit books chicken cooking fiber arts medical herbs homestead
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Please help! I don't know what grains are considered Sepp Holzer grain. I searched to get to this thread and have looked for the term and just can't find it. Could some kind soul either explain or redirect me!? Thanks tons in advance!
 
Mike Haasl
master steward
Posts: 8723
Location: Northern WI (zone 4)
2515
hunting trees books food preservation solar woodworking
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I'm thinking any perennial grain would likely satisfy Paul but I'm not sure.  Sepp's is a rye (as I understand it).  There's a decent supply at Wheaton Labs and the last person who needed some made an arrangement with Clay Bunch who's living out there and he was able to mail some to them.  Maybe send him a PM (Purple Mooseage) and see if he can hook you up?
 
gardener
Posts: 398
Location: Nara, Japan. Zone 8-ish
274
kids dog forest garden personal care trees foraging
  • Likes 4
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
As per Mike's suggestion from the what-would-get-you-doing-PEP thread, I humbly submit for your consideration, at your leisure, a BB proposal:

!!!This is a Badge Bit proposal. This BB is NOT part of PEP. Doing this BB will not count towards any badges or any PEP levels.!!!


Reasoning: Why I think this BB should be added to the Sand Badge BB list for PEP Gardening, and why I think this BB applies to Paul's situation at Wheaton Labs.
 
Gardening currently has only three choices of BBs, while other aspects have many choices. Natural building has 6. Round woodworking has 11. Food prep has 18. Foraging has 8. Etc. BBs to do with seeds exist at the straw, wood and iron levels already.(Seed Saving, Grow perennials from seed, Land Race)

To be self sufficient in your permaculture gardening endeavors, you must know how to propagate your own plants on your own. Propagation skills get more plants in the ground, helps people share or sell their surplus of plants, and lets you keep producing your own tender plants every year by overwintering propagative materials indoors.

At Wheaton Labs, correct me if I'm way off, I assume people start seeds in places other than directly in the ground, divide plants to populate newly cultivated areas, and keep cuttings indoors to winter? 

To make the BB more permaculture-y, restrictions of "no new plastic, no new heat, and no grid electricity can be used to propagate for this BB". 

If this BB sounds like a good addition, I pledge to rewrite a final draft, research and add relevant links, pictures, and videos. I pledge to complete the BB for quality control and so there is an example. 

If this BB is not a good addition to PEP Gardening, feel free to tear it apart as an example to others :). 

!!!This is a Badge Bit proposal. This BB is NOT part of PEP. Doing this BB will not count towards any badges or any PEP levels.!!!

------------------------- 
Proposed BB draft. 
-------------------------

This is a badge bit (BB) that is part of the PEP curriculum.  Completing this BB is part of getting the sand badge in Gardening. (crossed out for now because This BB is NOT part of PEP.)

In this BB, you will propagate plants using two of these three methods: from seed, root division, and rooted cutting. 

Propagating your own plants is a valuable skill allowing you to share and trade plants and make new plants to fill in your property or neglected land. Propagating yourself saves money. Propagating from plants already in your area ensures they are adapted to your climate. Propagation skills allow you to grow plants that aren't adapted to your climate by bringing seeds, cuttings etc. indoors over the harsh winter. 

-Place holder for fancy links, pictures and videos-

A permaculture perspective to propagation would strive to reuse materials every year or use only natural materials. We would try not to use new heat or grid electricity. 

-Place holder for fancy examples from permies of how to get around this restriction-


To complete this BB, the minimum requirements are:  

!!!This is a Badge Bit proposal. This BB is NOT part of PEP. Doing this BB will not count towards any badges or any PEP levels.!!!

Choose two:
From seed: two species of your choice. Resulting in 10 viable plants for each species (total of 20 plants). research on your own, methods to germinate your chosen species and explain the method you chose.
Root division: make one plant into five. Choose a plant that can be divided. Examples: sunchokes, hostas, rhubarb, iris, echinacea etc. Research on your own the best time of year to divide your chosen plant. 
Rooted cutting: make one plant into five. Choose a plant that can be rooted from a cutting. Examples: rosemary, tomato, mint, willow etc. Research on your own the best time of year to take cuttings from your chosen plant.

Restrictions:Use no new plastic. Use no on grid electricity. No new heat. Use willow water if needed for rooting. 

To show you've completed this Badge Bit, provide the following:  

!!!This is a Badge Bit proposal. This BB is NOT part of PEP. Doing this BB will not count towards any badges or any PEP levels.!!!

From seed:
Explain the germination method you chose for your two species.
-Picture of seeds before germination and supplies you will use.
Explain where your materials came from.
-picture of seeds sprouting.
-pictures showing ten healthy plants from each species with true leaves.

Root division: 
-Picture of plant before division
-Picture showing dividing
-Picture showing mother plant and four new divided plants (five plants total)

Rooted cutting:
-Picture showing plant before cuttings
-Picture showing new cuttings
-Picture showing cuttings with healthy roots and foliage on at least four cuttings. 

!!!This is a Badge Bit proposal. This BB is NOT part of PEP. Doing this BB will not count towards any badges or any PEP levels.!!!

------------------
End of BB Draft
------------------

A straw level might add layering, air layering, and grafting.

So what do you think?
 
Mike Haasl
master steward
Posts: 8723
Location: Northern WI (zone 4)
2515
hunting trees books food preservation solar woodworking
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Nice write up Amy!  We could use your skills on the PEP team if you're interested?  Actually anyone who's passionate about PEP can join the team and help move the program forward.  We had a zoom call today where we worked on the Wood level Community badge.  

As bad luck would have it, we happened to look at the gardening badge today.  Paul's non-exact words were something along the lines of "I like the simplicity of the current Gardening badge".  

While they do start some plants from seed at Wheaton Labs, I think it's not the preferred method.  So I doubt there'd be much interest in the seed starting bit.  Maybe the propagation ones...

We're focusing on getting the current badges that are undefined to be defined.  And we need to type up hundreds of BBs for the ones that have been defined.  So we're trying to put our energy there.  Wanna help?
 
Amy Arnett
gardener
Posts: 398
Location: Nara, Japan. Zone 8-ish
274
kids dog forest garden personal care trees foraging
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Mike Haasl wrote:
As bad luck would have it, we happened to look at the gardening badge today.  Paul's non-exact words were something along the lines of "I like the simplicity of the current Gardening badge".  



Got it! Absolutely no wiggle room in gardening...:).  I'm trying to come up with community classes and weekend workshops we could do at our place and thought some might be a good fit for PEP as well. I think I'll make a small PEX-AA (slowly) for our place as I like the PEP format and permies is a good place to develop and share ideas.

Thanks! I'm happy to help some in my spare time. Drafting BBs is good mental exercise.
I targeted gardening because it's what I have the most confidence in experience-wise, but maybe there is something else I can chip away at.
 
Mike Haasl
master steward
Posts: 8723
Location: Northern WI (zone 4)
2515
hunting trees books food preservation solar woodworking
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Yay, thanks for understanding!  The thread where we talk about typing up BBs is PEPPERS in action.  Since we made that thread, the term PEPpers has evolved to mean people doing PEP but that thread is for the folks who want to help by typing up BBs.  We double check the BB write-ups so you don't have to know too much about them to do it correctly.  If you do want to try some out, read that thread and post there once you've done one so we can check it over.  Thanks!
 
gardener
Posts: 1198
Location: Denver, 6a / BSk, rental house dweller, going back to Wheaton Labs soon
720
hugelkultur kids forest garden trees books wofati cooking bike rocket stoves
  • Likes 4
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Hi, I believe I've earned my Sand Badge in Gardening:

###My BB Links:
- Hugelkultur: https://permies.com/p/1165783
- Chop & Drop: https://permies.com/p/1141114
- Ruth Stout Composting: https://permies.com/p/1154457
Staff note (Mike Barkley) :

Looks good. Enjoy the gardening sand badge!

 
permaculture is giving a gift to your future self. After reading this tiny ad:
BWB second printing, pre-order dealio (poor man's poll)
https://permies.com/t/147624/BWB-printing-pre-order-dealio
reply
    Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic