How much less honey does 'natural beekeeping' produce?

The advantages of natural beekeeping are highly tempting: healthier bees, less diseases, minimal work, less or no cost to set up.

So how much honey does it produce compared to conventional beekeeping? I have no idea if it's say only 5% as much or 50% etc.

I can't keep a standard beehive in my yard as neighbours and my own family will complain. But if I can disguise a natural one, like Sepp's one made out of a log, maybe I can sneak it in.

that sure depends. on how you measure (e.g. per hive, per hour of work, per money spent). on what sort of hive you're using. on your management practices. on the provenance of the bees.

given those variables and others, I would guess a range of 0% to 250%.

Can you give a definition of natural beekeeping?

If its just disguising the hive, then the ability to harvest the honey would be the factor, as i see know reason why quantity would be lower. Also, there are ways to get solid combs of honey without larvae in it. Stacking boxes and queen excluders are used for this. I would suspect that without these manipulations you will be straining out a lot of larvae from your honey. In a natural hive, are you able to see the comb in detail to see if its honey vs larvae, then return it if its not suitable for harvest?

I'm a first year beekeeper so i am theorizing a bit. What i can say is that the beehive is not the nuisance your neighbors think it would be. I can walk up, sit in a chair 6ft from hive and watch them come and go. Its kind of relaxing.

Honey production of a "Natural" hive is quite dependent on how large the cavity is for comb production.
I have a hive in a tree on our land and the cavity (about 5 feet long inside the trunk that is 30" diameter) is full of comb.
I don't harvest from this hive since it was there when we bought the land, I feel it is theirs.

I have a top bar hive I set up for any swarm that found it to their liking and I have a 25" diameter tree trunk hive that I created by taking the top of the tree and then cutting a closing lid and hollowing the trunk down about 2 feet, I left some "bars" across the top part (the lid) so there was something for comb to be built on.
This year we had a swarm find it to their liking and there is now 3 comb sections about a foot long inside this hive.  Since I have Anaphylaxis I rarely bother the bees, but I've noticed that I am allowed by the bees to gently open the hives when they are calm (I've learned what calm bees sound like from a big honey keeper who doesn't even wear a hood).  We buy our honey (raw) because I don't think our bee hives would be as strong over winter without all they can get in our area, and my being stung several times would be life threatening to me even with my auto injectors.

This site has great information on natural bee keeping

natural bee keeping trust

A big part of it depend on the internal volume of the "natural" bee hive.
Lets say that you were able to get some 21inch diameter tree logs and you hollowed out some rectangular space and drop some regular sized frames in it.
I think that the production levels would be identical.

Now if instead of using full frames you only used top bars and the bees had to "turn honey" into frame then that extra work would eat into honey production.

If by natural you mean that you will not place a barrel of "unlimited" sugar water syrup (or worse corn syrup+water) 100ft away so that they can just "fatten up" the hive then your production would obviously differ.

But to simple get to the point I would say that you will get 50lbs of honey vs the usual 200lbs per hive

Even at a quarter the production of a normal beehive, 50lbs/20+kg of honey a year from a natural give is more than enough for a family.

People in tropical Australia are happy getting just 1 kg/2lbs from native stingless bees.

What interest me ATM is the 'Kenyan beehive' style. They look much more beautiful too!

Conventional hives are dependent upon materials and resources that won't always be available. Therefore, longer term, conventional beehive production falls to zero. Natural beekeeping selects for stronger bees that can survive without mite medication, artificial feeding methods, manufactured foundation, etc. I think it's great that you're considering a log hive.

As for a concrete answer to the question, I have no answer. All I can say is not to expect any honey harvest whatsoever, at least for several years. Your losses will be highest during that time, and your production even once you've settled in may oscillate quite a bit.

This topic is worse than an argument about the world becoming vegan.

The advantages of natural beekeeping are highly tempting: healthier bees, less diseases, minimal work, less or no cost to set up

As a hobby bee keeper for 50 years there is almost no proof of your claims.
- harvesting requires destruction of the comb structure to get honey,
- then the bees have to divert resources to rebuilding the comb.
- there is no less disease in natural hives, if the diseases are around, they will attack all hives.
- beekeeping does not require a lot of work, yes it needs some, but compared with other forms of production its pretty good.
- In Australia, native bees produce honey which can be collected,
but - they produce very small amounts
      - Only live in warmer [Northern ] climates here

Conventional hives are dependent upon materials and resources that won't always be available. Therefore, longer term, conventional beehive production falls to zero. Natural beekeeping selects for stronger bees that can survive without mite medication, artificial feeding methods, manufactured foundation, etc. I think it's great that you're considering a log hive.  

I have never seen such diatribe ever
- Conventional hives are made from flat timber which I am sure will be around for many years. It is painted to last longer to save destruction of more trees.
- Both forms of beekeeping selects stronger swarms and hives
- I have never medicated a hive
- artificial feeding is only needed if the apiarist has taken too much honey, which could occur in either regime.
- manufactured found nation is not needed, but it makes it easier with proper hive management it can be avoided.
- hollow logs are used by birds and other wild life, using them for hives deprives the use of those logs by others and I would not like to think of the destruction required to get hollow logs out of a forest.
- My hives are 60 years old
- how long does a hollow log last?

I am going to say this;
Modern forms of beekeeping may well be the most environmentally efficient method of harvesting honey.

Hi John,

I think that maybe things are different between our countries, and maybe there's been a misunderstanding about what I mean personally by "conventional" vs natural beekeeping.

Where I live, "natural" beekeeping means someone who doesn't treat their bees with anything, and who collects swarms instead of buying nucs or packaged bees. This doesn't preclude people from using langstroth, warre, topbar, log hives, or woven hives.

In the United States, conventional beekeepers do all sorts of crazy things (in my opinion). We literally ship packaged bees across the continent, and it's not uncommon for conventional bees to be trucked up and down the coast during the growing season with minimal access to diverse forage. Conventional beekeepers here also open their hives very frequently, use miticides, and religiously feed their bees sugar and artificially gathered pollen. I've even heard of operations near me that feed soda pop after taking all the honey away in the fall. Their bees have become dependent, in my view, on all of these things and materials. The issue for me isn't the type of hive they're kept in, though I wish people would better insulate whatever hive they're using here in the Northwest. It really does reduce losses here.

Whoa!
James I am stunned at what you have told me.
Thanks for the feedback.
Here, natural beekeeping is using those old style conical hives etc.
Conventional beekeeping is using  'langstroth ' hives etc and work them in a 'sustainable way', that is they don't need extras to stay active.
I can see the \the beekeepers you speak of can't be beekeepers, they sound like Slave drivers etc.
We ship Queens around, but that is to improve the quality of the hives, shipping whole swarms seems odd.
I guess we are seeing 'market forces ' at work with some of those producers, who seem to be able to cover sloppy processes with profit.
Thanks for the heads up.

My opinion is how much honey any given colony makes is not a matter of what type of container it lives in but how much food (nectar) is available for them. Some years are better than others. Some locations are better than others. Feeding them sugar will result in them storing sugar, not actual honey. Maybe it's time to educate your family & neighbors. Pretty hard to hide a backyard beehive in any form. Do you intend to harvest at night without a suit?

This whole thread depresses me. A lot of good stuff has been said, but there is a lot of cultural subtext in the language being used that is worth exploring.

What is conventional beekeeping?

100 years ago there was just beekeeping. People managed bee hives in their local area, and the largest honey producers had maybe 100 or so hives. A limiting factor was transport - hives are heavy and difficult to move. Transport allows a beekeeper to move hives with the local honey flows.

In the past 50 years “conventional” beekeeping has been overwhelmed by what is better called “commercial” or even “industrial” beekeeping. One beekeeping business may own 5000 hives. This is particularly true in the USA. Their income is primarily from pollination contracts (almonds) which can bring in more per hive than the honey. To fulfill these contracts the bees MUST be fed and medicated, then trucked large distances vectoring diseases across the continent.

Meanwhile the small time Beekeepers kept on doing their thing, while the rhetoric associated with the large commercial interests came to be considered “conventional”.

The fact that beekeeping has had to be rebranded as “natural beekeeping” is pretty much a direct reaction to that rhetoric.

Now, as far as the original question goes:
Treating for mites can increase yields - it removes a source of pressure on the hive.
Feeding sugar increase yields - the beekeeper can remove more honey each autumn and replace it with sugar syrup.

Neither of those things are necessary. Both of them are potentially harmful. In particular, treating for mites removes the pressure of natural selection on your colonies allowing weak hives to survive and breed. Natural selection is essential for bees as a species to evolve a collective resistance to varroa. When an individual beekeeper treats they are putting their own desires - greater honey harvests, survival of their colonies - above the needs of the species as a whole.

I could write for hours on this... but please do not consider the conventional commercial management methods something worth emulating.

(Edit - corrected typo that was changing the meaning)

Well said Michael. Right on target.

Feeding honey increase yields - the beekeeper can remove more honey each autumn and replace it with sugar syrup.

He obviously meant to say feeding sugar though. My approach is moving towards not harvesting much honey until after winter when the plants start blooming again. Only take what you know for sure the bees won't need. Experimented with that last year & it worked great. Harvested almost none this year so far.  I'm 100% confident there is plenty for the bees until next spring.

Natural methods for things tend to cost little to no money.

If I can collect bees from a swarm, make a primitive long wooden box with bars resting along the top, and let the bees figure everything else out, that's my understanding of an alternative more natural non-mainstream method. And it costs peanuts. The photos I've seen of Kenyan hive boxes are of people not using smokers or outfits.

I've read that in hives without frames the bees  will make the comb according their own needs in size, shape and quantity. This makes them stronger and with less room for pests to hide or disease to flourish. Hence less quantity but healthier colony.

A bit like chickens on a third world farm I once visited that couldn't afford to have drugs or cleaning liquids for disease and mite prevention (even the malaria-infected humans on the farm didn't have that luxury) yet the chickens lived healthily just roaming the farm without any gates or interference.

Feeding honey increase yields - the beekeeper can remove more honey each autumn and replace it with sugar syrup.

He obviously meant to say feeding sugar though.

Good catch - fixed it

Tim Kivi wrote:Natural methods for things tend to cost little to no money.

If I can collect bees from a swarm, make a primitive long wooden box with bars resting along the top, and let the bees figure everything else out, that's my understanding of an alternative more natural non-mainstream method. And it costs peanuts. The photos I've seen of Kenyan hive boxes are of people not using smokers or outfits.

I've read that in hives without frames the bees  will make the comb according their own needs in size, shape and quantity. This makes them stronger and with less room for pests to hide or disease to flourish. Hence less quantity but healthier.

I’ve never seen any evidence - at all - of a particular hive design that helps bees manage disease loads. There is a lot of supposition out there that certain practices may help - like foundationless beekeeping - but there is certainly no consensus and many Beekeepers do very well using “conventional” hives.

The hive design chosen, therefore, is of primary interest to the beekeeper, not the bees. Bees will happily nest anywhere from hollow trees, to old truck tyres and petrol cans.

By all means choose any hive design you want, but go into it with your eyes open - top bar hive take more work to manage. Foundationless beekeeping is difficult for novices to get right.

The one thing which I know helps unequivocally is the genetics of the bees, and their inherent adaptation to local pests and climate. THIS is the biggest reason to avoid conventional beekeeping - the bees tend to be “mass produced”, shipped and have limited selection for disease resistance. Locally caught swarms have a better chance of having those traits, but are considerably more time consuming to catch - if you ever even get one at all.

It's safe to say everyone here is all about doing things naturally. Local swarms or some long time local bees from a nearby natural beekeeper would certainly be a great start. I would suggest two hives simply because it gives you backup & resources. Might prevent a year of downtime. Go for it.

very informative video,thank you

hello, just built a log style hive and having very  little hands on knowledge of bee keeping ,i was attracted to at first just keeping or rather just having bees take up residence so i could observe and learn , then build another hive for later swarming and some modest honey gathering, i have just in the past few days made contact with a keeper and trained herbalist , for some tips and guidance, back to this thread , i dont read anywhere that the intention was to chop down a natural hollow log tree but rather to re create one himself it seems. My little  section of the planet doesnt have any large diameter trees being harvested and mostly once i have spotted a blow down or felled tree that could be big enough--i get there to late to save and buy a long enough section ---its all chainsawed up into firewood---so i set about making my own log styled hive , heres a bad picture of it starting out --i cant find the camera that has the midway process and the completed hive up in a tree---yet. I used the rejected pallet wood strips from a sawmill --sold off very cheap --maybe free in your parts---these are untreated and roughsawn , the former around which the log is created is a salvaged piece of plastic pipe---13 inches or so outside diameter and 5 feet long---the strips where all cut to match length at 48 inches there abouts.Held in place by a few  bungee cords until the plywood capped ends where nailed up --then the tube former slid out---then built another layer of planks about 4 or 5 inches spaced out from the first layer and filled it with hempcrete insulation---the top and bottom are plugged with insulted  removable lids ---yes it damn heavy --but not meant to be disturbed but could be inspected if necessary ---my calculation of internal size is 100 liter or so---no bees yet ---i just missed the swarm season and failed to attract any thing yet---besides i have not seen a honey bee around my place for years ---they are a few miles away though--so i might have to buy in a nuc next season.

some more of them

Interesting improvised design. I like it.

Just a few thought before you get bees in it.

1) Do you intend to harvest honey, or is this just a manufactured wild colony?

2) If you plan to harvest honey, what it is your plan to get it out of there? Expect the wx and honey of a strong colony to weigh more than 100kg. You won't be able to safely lift it from the tree.

3) If you want to attract a swarm, look into adding some kind of swarm lure. Old dark brood comb works well, and you can buy pheromones to do the same job (lemon grass oil, but it is a tiny dose and slow release).

4) Many cultures install log hives horizontally, hanging from branches. They can be lowered to access them. Horizontal hives have advantages when harvesting honey as well. If the entrance is at one end, the brood nest will tend to be at that end and the honey will tend to be stored at the other end. You can simply open the back end and cut a few combs away without disturbing the bees in the brood nest.

5) I don't know your climate, but here in the UK insulation makes a big difference year round for climate control. Adding an outer skin of some sort will help them. Look up WBC hives for an example of traditional hives with outer removable covers.

Good luck with them. Let us know how it goes when you have been in there!

hello, yes the hive could only get heavier if occupied---hopefully-----but so are those big natural loghive i think ----the top and the base of mine are removable ---they are not too heavy but i would nt fancy doing it unless more experienced and suited up and until i have the rest of the plan of the project completed---i am collecting lumber and bits to make a stairway and platform around the hive then some metal brackets to attach or lifting eyes onto the lid---there are enough close by branches /trunks  for another piece of this over complex  backyard engineering  project ---a swing out gantry with pulley block or small block and tackle to hang off above the hive. At the moment i have used my teleporter/telehandler  with 18foot extention jib to do the lift. But its not my first intention to harvest honey ---rather to harvest swarms and build up another 2 hives or so --also up in the trees but further along the line. Have looked at chainsawing out logs but i am a bit of a "big girls blouse" with trying that out --i dont fear cutting trees down with them but that process of plunge cutting nose first gives me the wobble. Have seen a better way --for me that is ---on an american site where guy cuts and carves out stumps into office desks and makes furniture --he has a jig holding the chainsaw on a centered pole screwed into the log end and can slide into the log and turn a series of plunge cuts , and then by rotation into a clean cut circle plug to be removed ---only for a relatively straight trunk and big enough diameter.Did place some bees wax on the lid  plus some lemon balm oil on a cotton ball  inside the hive ---but no result ---think i was just too late ---first week of june  when it was up in place. I think if you want a hive build one up high enough--- paint it up all nice arty style like some of those eastern european ones and then  it wont be a scarey object and its out of the way of anyone touching or disturbing it ---bees dont bother people if left to their work .

Looks like a well made hive. Very cool. Might require some tweaking & learning but ultimately it should work well. Good luck!

thanks , i would welcome ideas on tweaks for it , but i wont be adding in frames , would have liked to build in an observation window---but at the time i had nothing suitable to hand and my young son helping me was eager to get this finished and in the tree  ---we were on holidays and i had a few more projects to get done ---hes the driving force behind this one as identifying the bees and similar has become a hobby for him---i have thought about buying one of those cheapish cavity/plumbing type cable cameras and using it for inspections---as i dont think a permanent installed mini lens camera would last inside a hive---they would proberly propolis or wax it over

tony uljee wrote:i have thought about buying one of those cheapish cavity/plumbing type cable cameras and using it for inspections---as i dont think a permanent installed mini lens camera would last inside a hive---they would proberly propolis or wax it over

Yes, they definitely would.

They need ventilation so that moisture doesn't condensate & freeze them to death. Not huge airflow, just enough to allow evaporation. I use screened bottom boards on most hives in summer. Not 100% necessary. Bees handle heat better than cold.

No specific tweaks beyond that. I just know from experience that v1.0 of anything usually needs minor changes & adjustments. Only you can really determine what those might be.

Good luck with these log hives. Want to experiment with that also. Another thread concerning feral bees vs native bees has me seriously reconsidering my approach though.

Mike Barkley wrote:They need ventilation so that moisture doesn't condensate & freeze them to death. Not huge airflow, just enough to allow evaporation.

Insulation factor of the walls, and especially the roof, is a much more important factor when it comes to condensation. In particular, you need to stop it dripping from the cold roof.

If you have a centrifugal extractor with a comb cage, you can extract honey without breaking the combs.

My topbar hive produces as much as a commercial langstroth but because I manage it naturally, I only harvest the bars after 15th bar. Also, first 2 years do not expect much from a topbar hive.

If I was harvesting all the honey and squeezing them into 2 combs with a follower board and feed back sugar syrup for their winter and bee-bread on spring (because syrup is not enough for 4-5 months), I could have gotten as much as a 2 box langstroth.

Any hive type; be it Langstroth, Topbar, Warre, Perone, Flow, log, naked or other variations can be used towards a more holistic and natural approach given that you let the bees to be bees naturally. What matters is your relationship with the bees not the equipment you use.

I have written an article here about it.

would love to keep the conversation  going and post more up but i feel a bit guilty for being a new comer /beginner and going off the original topic started by Tim

can I ask if there are anyone from australia or new zealand?
This is regarding bee keeping of manuka honey.
I am sent overseas to work in HongKong and you look at the prices for these manuka honey in hongkong. The price in HKD, which i translate into USD roughly $50 USD per bottle (500gram or 17.6 ounces). I know hong kong is expensive, look at this too manuka honey in singapore.
Again roughly $40 USD for a small bottle.

does the beefarm in New zealand or australia (if there are any beekeepers) using organic or natural way that is they are producing so little honey such that it is so expensive?
I cannot imagine why else new zealand honey is so expensive at $50 per bottle.
i have not visit the new zealand nor australia but i do hear that they are more natural and organic there.

or perhaps someone can clear my confusion why the beekeeping in so expensive there?

Manuka honey is so expensive because it has to be certified as coming only from the Manuka bush, you can find it on amazon for far less than the prices you posted though.

A recent study done in ireland has reported that our honey made during the heather bloom has same properties as manuka---doing some extra reading i found a similar health property --as claimed for manuka--- was reported for honeys made from the chilean hazelnut and the quilla blossums ,and in arabia for acacia honey ---could we be victims of a great advertising campaign from an industry ?

Another reason the cost of Manuka is so prohibitive, is the matter of shipping costs & import/ export taxes. Each can be ridiculously expensive, on its own; in combination, it can be downright bank breaking.

tony uljee wrote:A recent study done in ireland has reported that our honey made during the heather bloom has same properties as manuka---doing some extra reading i found a similar health property --as claimed for manuka--- was reported for honeys made from the chilean hazelnut and the quilla blossums ,and in arabia for acacia honey ---could we be victims of a great advertising campaign from an industry ?

We certainly are.

Also rhododendron honey in Black Sea region and Apis Dorsata honey from Nepal all have medicinal properties as well as hallucinogenic. Georgia near Turkey and Corsica Island in Mediterranean have chestnut honey, Tasmania has leatherwood, Greece and Turkey have pine honey. These are some of the "very best" honeys I've tried and my goodness those are some flavors to die for (if you get the real staff) and make mead.

The thing is, NZ honey production industry is "working" to do research, promotion, advertising etc. to get Manuka honey known. They are trying with their teeth and nail to have an industry. What are other countries doing?

On the other hand, may be it is for the better that the others are not advertising much so that some things can stay unadulterated and pristine.

Bryant RedHawk wrote:Manuka honey is so expensive because it has to be certified as coming only from the Manuka bush, you can find it on amazon for far less than the prices you posted though.

oh thats true. i googled a bit and realised manuka bush does not grow elsewhere other than NZ and some parts of australia, maybe thats why

tony uljee wrote:A recent study done in ireland has reported that our honey made during the heather bloom has same properties as manuka---doing some extra reading i found a similar health property --as claimed for manuka--- was reported for honeys made from the chilean hazelnut and the quilla blossums ,and in arabia for acacia honey ---could we be victims of a great advertising campaign from an industry ?

this is so true....
marketing pushed up the hype and prices so much

It dawned on me a couple weeks ago that wooden spools for large diameter wires like the power companies use would be easy to convert to an artificial log hive like Tony built.

Yep, and it has been done. Both intentionally and unintentionally. However they can be hard to get hold of as the companies frequently have deposits on the spools to return them. Might be different where you are, of course. Also, the spools are designed to be a thin and light as possible, while still being sound enough for the job of holding wire etc... You would likely find that they were not adequately insulating for the task, and would be hard to waterproof as well, being made of thin slats.

Almost a year to the date , bees have moved into my hive---i had been trying the 2 previous months with lemon balm oil and then some artificial lure chemical---to attract a swarm ---with no results---but then i tried another way ---(more by accident than purposely or carefully thought out)---radical and ----bloody expensive ---wife ,4 kids and myself went on a weeks foreign holiday. Now i did check the hive before we left ---nothing stirred---got back from holiday in the morning ---went straight to check the hive ---and bees were coming and going all the time ---it worked. Yes it would have been cheaper to purchase a nuc , but at least with this method i got to eat lots of affordable seafood on the algarve and keep the wife and kids happy ,get in some swimming  plus get a bit of a tan .

tony uljee wrote:-i had been trying the 2 previous months with lemon balm oil and then some artificial lure chemical---to attract a swarm ---with no results

lemon GRASS oil is used as swarm lure, not lemon BALM oil.

As for waiting nearly a year...  the first post in this thread was in August last year. At least around here, August is after swarm season. It is rare to see swarms as late July, and those that do swarm that late rarely survive winter. It is, therefore, no surprise at all that you needed to wait until the following swarm season to catch bees. After all, you can only catch swarms when they are there to be caught!

In most of the northern hemisphere outside of the tropics, swarm season basically runs May/June/July.