in search of natural clothing - especially winter gear

So...when/if Paul has the HUSP portion of his land activated, and I want to enter or hang out there, I would need COMPLETELY natural clothing that could get me through Montana winters. Paul needs this kind of gear, too.

I have no idea where/how to find clothing like this. There is organic cotton clothing, and perhaps silk or other long johns, but is the thread it was sewn with acceptable? Are the dyes natural and chemical-free? What about a coat and shoes? Would the coat need to be leather and fur with ligament stitching? Where would I find that?

What natural boots or shoes would you recommend? Again, the stitching, or any glues and such would have to be 100% natural.

The easy part is probably sweaters, socks, hats, scarves and gloves. There are naturally-dyed wool and other yarns and folks willing to knit. Though I don't knit and could still use some leads, here, too.

I googled an image for buckskin clothing and found this pic from Brain Tanned Deerskins.



This one was just an example only (a shot in the dark!) - I haven't even read their website yet. Which brings up another point: the clothing doesn't have to look native. As for me, simpler is better - no tassels (unless that's part of the buckskin construction?), beads or headdresses for this gal! I'm also thinking Paul isn't exactly a Tonto-wannabe. This is more about the purity of the clothing, not so much attempting to emulate indigenous or ethnic traditions, though often traditional cultures do have inherent wisdom in their ways.

I'm hoping some permies have some recommendations or know of some resources to reduce the amount of my ignorant thrashing about.

Interweb resources are fine (though shipping leather could get expensive!) and both Seattle and Missoula are local options.

my experience is only through weaving. I always tried to use organic hemp and cotton. The hemp I used was wonderful and the quality got better and better but it was grown in Romenia and shipped here. The organic cotton was grown here but my understanding was that the mills for cotton are in China now so all of the fiber is sent there and shipped back as yarn or woven goods. There are beautiful color grown cottons in shades of rust and greens I think grown in Arizona. The problem I had as a weaver was finding fibers I was comfortable practically rolling in and breathing at affordable prices. And I never liked working with wool...but it is easier to grow and process locally and takes natural dyes so much easier than cotton or bast fibers. I think llama, angora most of the protein fibers would be more HUSP appropriate...you could probably find someone raising sheep at least who would trade for wool or spun wool and someone else to weave or knit. Renaisance fair folks and some re enactors might have connections to something close to what your looking for.

Jocelyn left out the story behind this.

I wanted to get her a coat for Christmas. Something good for montana when it gets really cold. Maybe some gloves and other layers too. The full package to be comfortable outdoors on the coldest days.

As I was looking around, a few things came to mind:

1) I hate shopping

2) layers are the best

3) most of the layer based stuff at places like REI feature petroleum based fabrics

4) I went into a store that claimed to sell organic clothes and they had petroleum based fabrics there too.

5) It seems that the inner most layers should probably be a type of silk and then middle layers would be a type of high quality organic wool. Would the outer layers also be wool? And then the trick is to come up with soft wools rather than itchy. I was thinking alpaca would be a good choice.

6) If I do the shopping on the internet, I started to worry that I might get something really lame that cost way too much.

7) Then I started to worry about selecting something that jocelyn would not like the look of. And if it came from the internet or from far away, it might be difficult to exchange.

So I presented her with a lame piece of paper that offered the husp-ian outfit of her choice.

Can we do something with zero petroleum? All natural and all organic (or beyond)? What might be some choices?

Judith Browning wrote:my experience is only through weaving. I always tried to use organic hemp and cotton. The hemp I used was wonderful and the quality got better and better but it was grown in Romenia and shipped here. The organic cotton was grown here but my understanding was that the mills for cotton are in China now so all of the fiber is sent there and shipped back as yarn or woven goods. There are beautiful color grown cottons in shades of rust and greens I think grown in Arizona. The problem I had as a weaver was finding fibers I was comfortable practically rolling in and breathing at affordable prices.

Awesome experience, Judith. Though it sounds like you don't have a good source for made or woven goods like this, is that correct?

Judith Browning wrote:Renaisance fair folks and some re enactors might have connections to something close to what your looking for.

Great idea!

paul wheaton wrote:
So I presented her with a lame piece of paper that offered the husp-ian outfit of her choice.

You are pretty dang cool!

When exploring fabrics for when it is cold, I remember the expression "cotton kills". So probably best to avoid cotton.

Wool is great. It retains most of its insulation value, even when wet.
there are several companies making Merino wool long johns.

Goose down cannot be beat.

I have known people to coat outer garments with bee's wax for water-proofing.

Here's Corn Creek Fiber that has the most compelling colors and textures in their photos. Again, I haven't really researched them (I should be working today!) so I don't know much about what they do. They are currently doing a Jan. 2013 fiber giveaway on FB.

I will check with our local fiber guild...but maybe that would be the place to find in Montana, a weavers guild or more likely a fiber guild. There are wonderful weavers making classy and soft clothing but I am out of the loop anymore.

John Polk wrote:Wool is great. It retains most of its insulation value, even when wet.
there are several companies making Merino wool long johns.

Goose down cannot be beat.

Do you have any suggestions for companies or folks that make the long johns or layers with goose down?

John Polk wrote:I have known people to coat outer garments with bee's wax for water-proofing.

Cool. I went to cross-post this in ancestral skills forum and found this thread on tanning hides with hemlock and a permie commented that hemlock makes the hides tougher and more waterproof than brain tanning.

soft wools rather than itchy

I am not an expert on woolen fibers but I have a sense that a lot depends on the quality of the wool and how it is processed.

Cashmere is the warmest I believe and if the manufacturing is high quality most people do not find it itchy.

Merino wool is softer than most, plus it is a longer fiber.
The long fiber means fewer 'ends' sticking out of the fabric = less itchy.

It is also costlier, so shops that do quality work are about the only ones buying it.
Somebody making crappy fabric isn't likely to buy premium raw materials.

Most of the Merino wool is coming from New Zealand.

If the bounderies for this are absolutely no petroleum products involved at all and no synthetics and no chemicals then I think the only option is to have someone local raising the animal for fiber and spinning the yarn, making the fabric and everything. My point in my first post, not completely expressed (my excuse is I was playing trucks with a two year old at the time) was to do with the impossibility of finding any manufactured yarn or finished goods that at some point doesn't involve long distance shipping. I know that I have read of some rare businesses in the fashion industry attempting to use very GREEN inputs and even using some natural dyes. Sorry I'm no help with actual sources. I love this line of thinking though.

Minus -15 this morning and I looked at what I had on,only my hat and gloves would be natural. Guess I need to think more local about my clothing. Gloves knitted by a lovely 90 year old neighbor. The hat crocheted by a gal who always had her booth next to me at a Saturday market. They would be the size of a bushel basket and when she washed them in hot water they become a dense waterproof thick felt. I love that hat.

Judith Browning wrote:If the bounderies for this are absolutely no petroleum products involved at all... <snip> ...the impossibility of finding any manufactured yarn or finished goods that at some point doesn't involve long distance shipping.

I think Paul meant no petroleum in the actual clothing itself. Yes, avoiding the use of petroleum by no shipping would be far, far better; but I think until we have a dramatic collapse or huge shift in one sense or another, we just don't have these kinds of cottage industries in all communities. So, ironically, I think shipping would be okay - for now.

Per John's suggestion, I googled organic merino wool long johns and found American companies selling European goods. While some offered a "natural" color, the colored versions looked like conventional (i.e., chemical or petroleum) dyes and there was no word on whether the stitching is polyester or what.

In the end, even with "allowing" shipping, it might still come down to hiring a local craftsperson. Like Robert's hat and gloves.

search for alpaca socks on the web. if they can make those well, they can make anything well.

just bought some peruvian alpaca on the eBake, shipped out of florida.
machine woven, so tight and good lines.
i sell clothes, and understand what it takes, but don't like it too chunky.
some nice stuff out of utah, but not sure of cuts, as you say.

http://myworld.ebay.com/putuco?_trksid=p2047675.l2559

have had great luck with Terramar silks, not so much with their woolies.
womens pointelles and heavier all good.

for hard work , still like the old terramar wool w poly lining, it is best wicking stuff i ever had.

I went to my local meeting the other evening and a family was there talking about their alpaca ranch. They mentioned that a lot of pet alpaca owners bring their animals to the various ranches where once a year they have traveling shearers. The ranchers sell their fleeces commercially, but the pet owners very often have no outlet for the fleece and will give it away.
I was fortunate to inspect some garments made from this wool and it is awesome stuff. Very soft, doesn't itch and doesn't smell like wet dog when it gets wet. The felted wool is like micro fleece. It's definitely on my list for warm weather gear next time I'm shopping for it.

Here's a beautiful sustainable cashmere goat farm in Tuscany.

Chianti Cashmere Goat Farm

Up-cycled wool clothing is worth looking into. Etsy is a good place to start looking for this type of stuff, even undies: http://www.etsy.com/shop/sartoria?ref=seller_info. I like Ibex wool wear a lot. For a down layer, I'd inquire at a quilt/sleeping bag manufacturer: http://www.nunatakusa.com comes to mind. Their jackets will be shelled in nylon standard, but small gear shops like this do lots of custom work, and substituting a high thread count cotton should be easy enough. That cotton will likely be Egyptian, and who knows what that means about it's place of origin, but natural is natural the world over, no? Shoes: check out http://topaz.no/english/ for inspiration. Remember that there is such a thing as natural rubber. Or, perhaps less practical, but... http://www.etsy.com/shop/daphneboard. That itchy wool is a good outer layer, as is the traditional British waxed canvass. I've been wanting to try my hand at making Kaki-shibu (fermented green persimmon juice) for treating light-weight cotton clothing to make it more hard-wearing and water repellant. I think that a thin, windproof outer layer is really important, and these kinds of coats can get too heavy: it's the air that keeps you warm, the fabrics are just there to manage it. Meaning: a heavier coat can make you colder. I suppose I'm just too attached to my old goretex: 'taint natural. Naturalized maybe, after 10 yrs. but that's no help here. Good luck; I think Mr. Wheaton might have to lay low on the frugality forum for a bit...

Have you looked on LocalHarvest.org for sources near you?

For wool, only the part touching your skin can't be itchy. Coarser wool for an outer layer will be fine and won't pill as much so will stay more attractive. If you can find it natural, it may still have the lanolin in it, which will help make it waterproof as well. I have a wool sweater that got kind of felted from washing it un-carefully and I put in a zipper - it's wonderfully comfortablei as a coat! Another thing about wool - you don't overheat in it as fast as a lot of other fibers. You'd want to thoroughly felt knitwear or put on a windproof layer tho, that's the one drawback to wool - it lets the wind right in if it's knit.

As for goose/duck down - if you wanted to try making your own you may find the feathers on local harvest as well. A friend used to harvest feathers from her geese - she waited until they moulted then the feathers just came right out - no need to kill the goose.

Angora goats are easy to keep and have a lovely fleece which is easy to spin, soft, warm yet durable. A few goats will keep you in knitwear, bedcovers, socks and the fleece can also be carded and used to make a lovely filling for a quilt. Angoras are very tasty and you can cure the skins and of course the goatshed contents are great for the garden.



Kid's wool is perfect for underwear



The adult fleeces make the most comfortable socks ever



and fantastic bedcovers



Dyed with onions skins, chestnut skins etc







Border collie inspired sweater



I've kept Angoras for over twenty years and I consider them to be a great permaculture animal - every community should have a few.

Irene, Absolutely beautiful! I am seeing in black and white on this kindle but can "see" the softness if not the color in your work and that sweet little goat. I am crocheting some of my natural dyed wool right now so I know how wonderful a color onion skin is but I don't know chestnut as a dye...shades of brown I'm guessing.

layers are the way to go. Before petro-clothes the system for backcountry attire was silk undies, cotton middle (several layers), and wool outers. A. R. Harding wrote many great books in the 30's on "living in the woods", this was from Land Cruising and Prospecting. My wife is currently knitting me a wool hat that is in the grease and still has the natural lanolin in it, making it quite water resistant. Next will be the sweater. Which will be my rainy weather gear.

If you can't find locally made items, you can buy some Icebreaker wool layers which are the most durable pieces I've seen that are widely available. You can see them at the Trailhead downtown. They are expensive but last for YEARS.

There are a few other huge benefits to natural fibre clothing for living in the bush in the winter....it's way safer to use around woodstoves and open fire, and less likely to be spark damaged, much more durable for bush travel, and much more quiet-moving if you need to be hunting.

Leather mukluks over wool felt liners are much warmer than boots, and work well with traditional snowshoe bindings.

Leather outer mitts over wool inners, the leather is handy when handling bush tent woodstove drafts and hot pots, etc....kid style strings on the mitts that run over your shoulders are super handy and allow you to vent and cool easily when needed.

Don't write off cotton...tight weave cotton canvas is the traditional (post-contact) material of choice for anoraks and snowpants, and makes an excellent breathable snow resistant / windbreak layer over top of wool.

The traditional anorak pattern with sash is highly adapted and functional for winter travel and living.

Connover's 'snow walker's companion' is a great reference with a focus on fairly traditional gear and clothing..including a pattern for sewing an anorak.

There are also good, practical suggestions on'wintertrekking' that emphasize natural fibre and leather.

So many excellent ideas, links and just stunning pictures from Irene! Thank you folks. I'm drinking it all in.

John Polk wrote:Merino wool is softer than most, plus it is a longer fiber.
The long fiber means fewer 'ends' sticking out of the fabric = less itchy.

I pretty much use Merino exclusively for that reason in my spinning, weaving and knitting - it's a very soft and lofty wool that's useful in a lot of ways for clothing purposes. I second all of the posts on using wool - it's great for layering, still retains some warmth when wet, and is a natural renewable fiber. We're moving out to the Cascadia region (Puget Lowlands) this summer, and I'm planning on making a lot of homemade wool clothing for use during the winters there.

I based my layers on readings of the original Everest expedition gear and Nessmuk, adapted to what I could afford and find locally. It worked in South Dakota.

I buy 90% of my merino at Goodwill/Salvation Army. Good sweaters for $5. Make the top layers easy, and a source for reknitting if you are skilled.

I pay full price for merino bottoms and socks. Hat, scarf, and mitts from a friend that can knit. The hat is my wool from my sheep and I will defend that hat with my life.

For wind and waterproof outer layers, I waxed my own cotton pants and coat. Google how to. I also would buy oversized wool dress pants and boil them down to size, making them shockingly warm for the weight and price.

I have nearly eliminated petroleum based clothing simply because the above works better for the money, not for any noble reasons.

Here's a video about a 150 mile wardrobe, which was kind of along these lines. I actually really liked her clothing, especially her alpaca raincoat.

That's a wonderful video Galadriel, it's very moving for me.

Where I live hardly anyone makes their own clothes or thinks of using sheep/goats/plants for textiles. That will change one day I hope.

Cheers.

"Why Buy Alpaca?
Alpaca fibre combines a number of extremely desirable attributes into one fibre:

Alpaca fibre is silky, soft, supple, and smooth to the touch. It is prized for its silky and luxurious feel.
Alpaca is found in 22 distinct natural colours from white to black.
Alpaca is unusually strong and resilient. The strength does not diminish as it becomes finer.
Alpaca is as soft as cashmere and warmer and stronger than lamb’s wool.
Alpaca is easily dyed any colour and always retains it natural luster.
Alpaca contains microscopic air pockets which creates lightweight clothing with great warmth.
Most people can comfortably wear pure alpaca next to their skin.
Alpaca contains no lanolin and is hypoallergenic.
Alpaca is usually 16 to 30 microns fine making it not itchy.
Warm, breathable and light weight."

From the Midnight Sun Alpaca website - http://www.midnightsunalpacas.com/index.html
This is a local farm for us Yukoners from Whitehorse.

I would add to that: If they can be happy up here in the Yukon (-30c all this week) they will probably keep you warm!

Awesome video, Galadriel! I would love the coat shown at the end.

Galadriel, thanks so much for sharing the Rebecca Burgess video....she would make a terrific visiting author or podcast guest...

I like Bamboo for comfort. It feels like silk/cashmere. I used to sell the fiber for hand spinners, also t shirts but my supplier sold out to another company. I am wearing a t shirt right now that is made from 70% bamboo and 30% organic cotton. The bamboo is organic also as there are no chemicals used for growing it. Also, it is not the bamboo that the pandas eat so we are not wearing their breakfast! Just Google bamboo cloths or better www.duckduckgo.com they do not track you like Google.

Well Paul, you guys are actually really lucky to have one of the best small fiber processing mills in the US near you (by western US standards, anyway), and it is one of the few making an effort to be sustainable. It is 13 mile Lamb and Wool Company www.lambandwool.com in Belgrade, Montana. This is where I send my fiber to be processed when I am not processing it myself (I raise suri alpacas).

If I were wanting to make a locally produced winter coat, I would buy fiber from one of the many local fiber producers in your area (I can put you in touch with people if you like, or if you want to extend your fibershed a bit I would be happy to trade some of our suri fiber for something that you might have to trade), and I would have it processed at 13 Mile, and I would make it or have it made into one of these. (It is Hungarian, and I think it is called a tzur, or something like that.) Somewhere in my fiber arts library I have a book which tells how to make them. I think the easiest way would be to have felt made (or make it yourself) and then cut and sew it into shape. (You can create patterns in the felt itself, or embroider them on after it is felted.) They are supposed to be very warm and weatherproof.

There is a very interesting book called Cut My Cote, by Dorothy Burnham which shows how a lot of traditional garments were made, which has a lot of really interesting info in it on traditional clothing-making.

The image didn't seem to attach. Lets see if this works:

Renate Haeckler wrote:Have you looked on LocalHarvest.org for sources near you?

Renate - thank you. Found some local (in my neck of the woods) alpaca and more local mills (yay!) through this site.

Felicity Fibers alpaca source in Snohomish, WA
Evergreen Fleece Processing in Woodinville, WA

Deb Berman wrote:Well Paul, you guys are actually really lucky to have one of the best small fiber processing mills in the US near you (by western US standards, anyway), and it is one of the few making an effort to be sustainable. It is 13 mile Lamb and Wool Company www.lambandwool.com in Belgrade, Montana.

Deb - SO awesome. And close to Bozeman where will we will be in March. Organic fiber, and meat, and predator friendly - plus other cool info on their website.



There are so many links in here to commercial products, which are very accessible, but most of them look like synthetic dyes, synthetic trim and notions, etc. despite the main fabric being natural or even organic. Thank you for the ideas, though these aren't quite the end goal.

Huge kudos to the idea of re-using or upcycling fabrics and clothes from the thrift store, too; though again, with re-purposed goods, the dyes could be synthetic, the fibers not organic and the notions could be petroleum-based.

It's looking more and more like this will be an artisan custom project similar to the clothing in the video Galadriel posted.

Every day Jocelyn tells me stuff going on in this thread. And in the last couple of days it seems worth bringing up several times a day. And Jocelyn has mentioned this to me about three times:

I think Mr. Wheaton might have to lay low on the frugality forum for a bit...

My response to this is rich:

222: it used to be that montanans would choose between frugality and being warm in the winter. I think I have crushed that in three different ways: wofati, rocket mass heater and my 87% off the electric heat bill article. It took time to fully understand, time to network, time to research, time to share ... but now we have solutions that are warm AND frugal. I see this space as being similar. But until you start to contemplate it, you cannot find a way to have both.

223: I think it might turn out to be really easy to have both once you factor in health care. Even if you travel a very expensive path. Is wearing petroleum based clothing making folks sick? granted, most folks are far less concerned about this than i am. So I put this point up for me and those that are like minded.

224: Why do I keep seeing pea coats where people are excited about their "vintage" and they point out that these are 60 years old? That would suggest that some clothes will last quite a long time. While other clothes have an extremely short lifespan.

225: While a good husp-coat might cost $700, it might last 50 years while a a cheaper coat might be only $70 but last one season. My current winter coat is now eight years old and I paid $150. But it is very utilitarian and a bit worn. I think with mending I should get another eight years out of it. but it falls short of what is acceptable for husp.

226: I wonder about the possibility of a path where a person is well aligned with permaculture and nature and chooses to avoid the rat race. So, there they are, on land and they desire winter gear. They have lots of time in the winter - being free from the rat race. And lots of passion to live symbiotically with nature. Could such a person create all of their winter gear for no cost? And what they end up with - might they value that more than $5000 if they were still in the rat race? So it kinda seems like, at zero cost - that seems frugal.


There are many schools of thought down this road. I like the idea that after a few years there could be a path that is HUSP-esque, frugal and luxuriant. This will be a challenge, but it won't be impossible.