Robert Ray

I'm middle aged so I figure I've got 30 seasons left, 30 gardens to plan, 30 tries to make it better. Just don't call me a Hobby Farmer.

Exactly, forward movement. Scale is also a factor, Apartment, house, 1/2 acre, 5 acres. What is in my physical control am I utilizing my kingdom to it's full extent?, or moving towards that. Am I a good steward. I believe I am more than a common gardener, I don't like being called a hobby farm, I want to reach a higher plain or be identified as being at what I consider a higher plain of a permaculturist.

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I get my e-mails on MSN. It's a bit weird some come through on Edge since I changed over a few months ago but my MSN butterfly seems to pick up some that don't show on Edge. I changed my e-mail to a Proton acct.

At what point can I say I am living a permaculture lifestyle?
In another thread I have been told that in some areas it is impossible to live a "permaculture lifestyle".
What does that mean?
A backyard permaculture practitioner that is making an effort to supply a portion of his/her food would that be a "permaculture lifestyle?
Do I have to produce 100% of my food?
When am I a permaculturist?

There are all kinds of timed shower valves out there here is a simple shower head one. https://www.showermanager.com/
There are actual valves some electric some not.

Chris,
I have never said anywhere in this thread that 8500 feet was a location to garden, if so please show me.
I did point out that CRMPI has had a permaculture site at 7200 feet for over thirty years. I also mentioned that there are people doing amazing things above 40 degree latitude.
I have given you personal testimony of the ability for a family to live in a northern area without outside importation of animal protein.
Breckenridge at over 9k and Vail @8k in elevation are areas that are probably unaffordable as well as undesirable. "nearish Vail" is a bit open to interpretation.
Your comments gave a blanket dismissal of a huge area that contains areas of possibilities.
Canada has a large lentil and garbanzo bean production so beans are a northern crop. Relatives still farm in Canada.
Please if you can show me where I have said anything that suggested all areas are acceptable.  One can't expect a business to be profitable once it starts, you have to recoup costs develop a customer base and pay for inventory. For one to think that in a northern clime right off the bat you can live off of a garden is improbable.
Permaculture is not relegated to just a garden it is a system that can include animals. My circle of permie friends do. The amount of land would be the limiting factor. Chickens, ducks, quail and rabbits require a small footprint for meat and acceptable within many cities. Some cities are looking ahead and allow goats. Even here at our altitude of 4500 bees are common.
To suggest that I would encourage permaculture everywhere is insulting.
I stand by my claims that you can implement permaculture and increase production with some of its methodology north of Colorado and at higher elevations and can be supported with examples.
Maybe our disagreement is our definition of a permaculture life? Does a partial attempt at living with a small foot print and supplying food have merit? Should one even try? Is a percentage of food production what defines a permaculturist.

Chris,
I am living proof, offspring of a family of seven in Canada lived off of a garden without purchasing or adding meat as a primary protein source. My 94 year old mother begs to differ with your assessment.  Permaculture doesn't relegate not adding animals to the mix and many do. If we are talking back yard permaculture on a city lot you're right it wouldn't feed a family of seven. The effort to reduce environmental impact by locally producing even part of your own food and increasing the yield with permaculture methods, which are not just organic or traditional, is worthy. We will disagree on viability and that it won't work North of the equator. Do you think permaculture has any redeeming qualities?

61 degrees lattitude Matanuska AK
That's a lot of cauliflower rice/pizza crusts, not near enough crocks for that much sauerkraut, a lot of squash soup.  

We're hijacking Paul's thread and have crossed political discussions outside of the cider press. So let's refrain from politics outside the Cider Press. I'm as guilty as the rest of you. I'll move future political posts to the cider press, for those of you that have Apples and Pie we can carry on the discussion on politics there. For those of you that don't have enough Apples and Pie you will have to obtain Apples and Pie to continue in the political conversation.