Quick DIY Yurt for Cold Climate by Wheaton Labs Standards

I'm looking to build something to live in for this winter without chucking money to the gick production monstrosity. I'm drawing up plans from various inputs with little margin for error beyond going into survival mode, so would appreciate anyone shouting 'hey dumbass' if there is something my plans are missing.

It doesn't seem like building a platform is in the cards for the first year. I'm going to go with an earthen floor along with a rocket mass heater of some sort and count on large quantities of old, downed wood to provide heat from a central heater with a pebble style circle around the center. I'm using this website to come up with the lumber and fabric numbers I need. I chose 24' diameter and 58" tall walls to go with the 67" bolt of duck cotton I ordered.

One question that came up was about cutting the Uni (Rafters) with a 1" dowel at the end to fit the Toono (ring). Is there any reason to not just drill a hole in the Uni and stick in a dowel? I'm thinking that would make for an extra part to keep track of when deconstructing and moving, but wondering about comparable strengths...

I'm reading recommendations to keep the walls short for strength and presumably keeping heat down low. Any reason not to dig down for an entrance to fit a full size door?

I'm hoping to burn extra wood to compensate for a cold earth floor, but any suggestions on mitigating that heat? At the RMH Jamboree I was being encouraged to dig drown around the perimeter and install insulation (foam boards?) around that trench edge. I figure I'll do that at least for drainage, but anything to do for insulation down there that isn't gicky?

On the door issue, no reason not to dig down if drainage can be worked out (a roofed vestibule of some kind), but also consider building up a lower wall out of earthen materials of some sort, say to 3' of height, so that your actual yurt wall of 5' height gets added to that. Now everything is somewhat more standard.

Possibly a raised floor height of 1' or more above grade or whatever drain problems the site has, some kind of material below the earthen floor (lava rock for insulation, etc.), rubble/trench foundation walls (circular), earthbag up to 3' above floor, yurt after that ...

Depending on dirt characteristics, maybe the excavation dirt lends itself to use in the earthbag, saving fill material costs.

Only use insulation sheets from the perimeter out about 3' to 6', to provide a frost-heave protection system; might also improve (block) cold characteristics.

I would argue with the code folks that all the earthbag work is also "temporary" (no concrete in sight), as is the yurt, depending on how you finish the earthbag walls; or, call it an AG structure, and have a chicken running around in there ...

Hey Coydon,

   I'm considering building a yurt and first and foremost find your post and the responses to be informative, so thank you..Might I ask, have you considered your goals for insulating the yurt and possible approach?



quote=Coydon Wallham]I'm looking to build something to live in for this winter without chucking money to the gick production monstrosity. I'm drawing up plans from various inputs with little margin for error beyond going into survival mode, so would appreciate anyone shouting 'hey dumbass' if there is something my plans are missing.

It doesn't seem like building a platform is in the cards for the first year. I'm going to go with an earthen floor along with a rocket mass heater of some sort and count on large quantities of old, downed wood to provide heat from a central heater with a pebble style circle around the center. I'm using this website to come up with the lumber and fabric numbers I need. I chose 24' diameter and 58" tall walls to go with the 67" bolt of duck cotton I ordered.

One question that came up was about cutting the Uni (Rafters) with a 1" dowel at the end to fit the Toono (ring). Is there any reason to not just drill a hole in the Uni and stick in a dowel? I'm thinking that would make for an extra part to keep track of when deconstructing and moving, but wondering about comparable strengths...

I'm reading recommendations to keep the walls short for strength and presumably keeping heat down low. Any reason not to dig down for an entrance to fit a full size door?

I'm hoping to burn extra wood to compensate for a cold earth floor, but any suggestions on mitigating that heat? At the RMH Jamboree I was being encouraged to dig drown around the perimeter and install insulation (foam boards?) around that trench edge. I figure I'll do that at least for drainage, but anything to do for insulation down there that isn't gicky?

I wouldn't bother with putting rigid down along the perimeter, the heat will still suck out and down into the ground rapidly. You could use rigid foam and lay it down inside like a pad, then cover with scrap plywood or drywall for a temp floor. If you want to avoid the insulation, if just for a season, I would use a nice thick layer of woodchip or sawdust which will give a nice insulation, nice smell, and nice softness to the floor. Definitely would cover with scrap plywood or drywall as it would be a fire risk and you wouldn't want sawdust getting into everything.

Another option, that is also very cheap or free, is to use a bunch of wine or beer bottles. I did this for a portion of my house and have seen it used effectively in a superadobe dome. Would need to have an earthen floor overtop though which would require some more work.

Unfortunately have limited net access at the moment and little time to respond point by point to comments/questions, but here is another thread that inspired my efforts. Particularly note the Permie-style use of snow for insulation.

I ripped the khana and uni yesterday, cutting to length today. Will probably spend the next week or two drilling out the khana and cutting tenons in the uni. Still need to figure out how the uni will interface with the khana as the site I linked isn't very detailed in that regard...

If you don't install a thermal break between your living space and the cold, cold ground beneath your feet, you will have a miserable winter. It can be a deep layer of dry moss, wood chips, sawdust, corn stalks, you name it. If it's gross, put a few inches of dry soil on top. Then build a floor using pallets. But you MUST create a thermal break.

Edit: I feel my post was more "should-y" than I would like. The thermal break is still a big deal IMHO. There are tons of closed-cell carpet underlay being landfilled every day. Closed cell means it doesn't absorb water, so it keeps its insulating value. Perhaps diverting this from a landfill, temporarily, might keep your feet warm while meeting your specification of "not throwing money at gick?" Luck!

Progress is slow but steady, may have time to post pics soon. Right now I am getting ready to start on the canvas, looking at thread options. The site I'm going from recommends #69 bonded nylon thread. It doesn't sound like I need any greater strength to work with 12oz canvas, but I'm wondering about a non synthetic option? I guess the main problem would be aging and UV resistance? Is cotton/silk thread unworkable? Any other options? Forget if I mentioned it, but instead of polypro rope to tie the lattice together, I bought a bunch of 'Manilla Hemp' rope. It is more difficult to tie and takes longer lengths to account for inflexibility, but is supposed to be moisture resistant enough to last a looong time. At 1/4 inch it is a bit too large for the sewing machine though...

I was going to suggest a layer of sawdust for underfloor, as well. Like Douglas says, pretty much any dry stuff will work, though. Cattails came to mind for me since I live next to a swamp :D

When we lived in our tent while building our house, we put pallets down to keep the tent off the ground and avoid water problems. On top of the pallets, we put a few layers of cardboard so we wouldn't fall in between the slats of the pallets. It worked well. Maybe you could do something similar, although I think cardboard is a no go for Paul.

I think if you don't do something to insulate yourself from the ground you'll be very uncomfortable.

Jan White wrote:Cattails came to mind for me since I live next to a swamp :D

Yes! Excellent suggestion. Cattail stalks/leaves have an internal spongy cellulose layer that provides insulation. When I was experimenting with primitive bushcraft, I used it to sit on and keep me off the frozen ground. It's a widely available, sustainable resource.

On the ground issue, will there be a noticeable difference between surface sod, the 6 or so inches of soil under it, and the almost pure sand sub strata under that? As in digging out the sod and /or soil and replacing with sand?

On another note, I have everything ready to put the rafters up with the ring. I tried last week with one other person, but getting a 38" ring of 2x6s 15' in the air proved to be a task. I'm not sure the plans I followed for a 16 ' yurt are going to scale up to 24- the 7/8" rafters were looking really sketchy even though I doubled them up. The trouble actually ended up being with the knots securing them to the top of the wall lath. Simple knots pulled tight with a pliers made the manilla Hemp tighten like bolts for the hinges on the lath, but the rope going through the end of the rafter has to tie through the lath on the edge - my basic square knots didn't hold well. Yes there a better type of knot that would hold tighter without the space 'behind' it filled?

Coydon Wallham wrote:

I guess the main problem would be aging and UV resistance? Is cotton/silk thread unworkable? Any other options?

I'd check out some of the hand-stitching threads here on permies. I personally have not found the average artificial thread particularly UV stable. Unless you buy something from a reliable source that says it is, I'd even take the packaging with a grain of salt (or maybe the whole box of salt!)

I gather that hemp was used for ropes on sailing ships, so maybe you could search online for smaller stuff. A quick search came up with this page: https://www.etsy.com/market/hemp_sewing_thread  but many items on this page are *not* hemp or even natural, so it's definitely a problem.

Certainly, I've heard of them "waxing" linen thread which I believe is for strength, but possible also for ease of sewing - again lots to research.

Also some dyes seem to be more colour-fast than others, suggesting to me that colour-fast ones would protect the fibers more than ones that fade quickly. The problem is that the quick search I did came up with research that showed the fibers and dye protecting the humans underneath - not the fabric or dyes themselves. However, there are forms of zinc that have been used for decades to block the sun, so maybe covering the stitching lines with a mixture of beeswax and zinc oxide would be a physical barrier as well as waterproofing after the stitching?

What kind of machine are you planning to use? Most home level machines are going to struggle with the weight of fabric. Using a hand-awl would be time-consuming, but it will tolerate a much thicker material than a typical home sewing machine can manage.

Great project! Looking forward to pictures.

Coydon Wallham wrote:On the ground issue, will there be a noticeable difference between surface sod, the 6 or so inches of soil under it, and the almost pure sand sub strata under that? As in digging out the sod and /or soil and replacing with sand?

I doubt that would help: replacing the organic sod/soil with sand would make it colder, not warmer. The transfer of heat into the subsoil would become more efficient, not less.

But: I didn't know you had sod underneath! How deep is the actual sod layer? Dry sod blocks have insulating value -- but they must be allowed to dry, and be kept dry. Moisture migrating up from the subsoil will kill their insulating value, and the thermal break they can offer. How wet is the subsoil?

Jay Angler wrote:I'd check out some of the hand-stitching threads here on permies. I personally have not found the average artificial thread particularly UV stable. Unless you buy something from a reliable source that says it is, I'd even take the packaging with a grain of salt (or maybe the whole box of salt!)

I gather that hemp was used for ropes on sailing ships, so maybe you could search online for smaller stuff. A quick search came up with this page: https://www.etsy.com/market/hemp_sewing_thread  but many items on this page are *not* hemp or even natural, so it's definitely a problem.

Certainly, I've heard of them "waxing" linen thread which I believe is for strength, but possible also for ease of sewing - again lots to research.

Also some dyes seem to be more colour-fast than others, suggesting to me that colour-fast ones would protect the fibers more than ones that fade quickly. The problem is that the quick search I did came up with research that showed the fibers and dye protecting the humans underneath - not the fabric or dyes themselves. However, there are forms of zinc that have been used for decades to block the sun, so maybe covering the stitching lines with a mixture of beeswax and zinc oxide would be a physical barrier as well as waterproofing after the stitching?

What kind of machine are you planning to use? Most home level machines are going to struggle with the weight of fabric. Using a hand-awl would be time-consuming, but it will tolerate a much thicker material than a typical home sewing machine can manage.

I have access to one of these centurions, a Singer 78-1, supposedly designed for boat sails and other heavy canvas: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6m5VGbTU9w

Apparently the regular flat backed needles I picked up won't work, need to figure out how those are categorized. (looks like 16x99 diamond needles and 138  thread according to the video)

Any idea if 4 stitches per inch would be good enough, or should I have more?

It sounds like the best natural thread for outdoor use would be linen, but it is only available waxed that I can find, and sellers assure me it is for hand sewing only. I've been told by someone who has tried it that cotton thread will almost certainly start breaking in spots within a year. I think I'll just go with synthetic on my first attempt here to have something I don't have to redo next year or spend more time researching right now when the RMH needs attention.

Douglas Alpenstock wrote:I doubt that would help: replacing the organic sod/soil with sand would make it colder, not warmer. The transfer of heat into the subsoil would become more efficient, not less.

But: I didn't know you had sod underneath! How deep is the actual sod layer? Dry sod blocks have insulating value -- but they must be allowed to dry, and be kept dry. Moisture migrating up from the subsoil will kill their insulating value, and the thermal break they can offer. How wet is the subsoil?

We dug up most of the sod while leveling the site. There are spots of soil and sod around, but mostly I have dug up sand and spread it over the top of everything. There is a bunch of the sod piled up next to the site for a couple months, but it has been under snow off and on, currently under more than a foot...

Coydon Wallham wrote:Unfortunately have limited net access at the moment and little time to respond point by point to comments/questions

I understand that your web access is limited and it sounds like you've got your hands full, but I'm really hoping that you're taking photos as you build and that you'll be able to share them later. This sounds like a cool project, one that I wish I had undertaken.

Thanks for the reassurance that the machine you're going to use is up to the task!
Coydon Wallham wrote:

Any idea if 4 stitches per inch would be good enough, or should I have more?

You will really need to do a couple of samples. You may know the items below, but others will likely read this thread so I'll mention all that I'm aware of:
1. Too many threads and it can be like "perforating" a fabric and make it more likely for the fabric to fail.
2. Too wide a stitch length and you start to loose strength.
3. Several rows of stitching in parallel will be stronger than a single row.
4. You need to consider what order you stitch seams in - all the fabric on one side has to physically fit through the "throat" of the machine.
5. In a perfect world, make sure you've got extra table space, or even a second person, to support the fabric to make it easier to put through the machine in an even, consistent way. This is particularly an issue when sewing plastic tarps as the fabric is so slippery. However, in the case of canvas, its weight will make things tricky. I've never done a large project with heavy canvas, but I would definitely consider practicing on something smaller first if you can, even if it's something like a cover for some small outdoor thing that deserves protection. (Spare tire on the back of a truck for example?)
6. In case you haven't thought of this, you're going to need a *really* strong pair of scissors to cut the canvas to size/shape. Hopefully the machine loaner has some. Possibly a new blade in a rotary cutter will do it, but I found it got out of control more easily than scissors when I tried it for the first time. For the size of projects I've been doing, I've found it easier to stick with scissors. A really long straight edge would be helpful too, I expect.

As you get started, feel free to ask questions. You're doing a really great project and there are many people here on permies willing and able to give their ideas and describe their experiences for others to learn from.

I'm ready to start cutting and sewing on the roof, but realizing the calculator numbers I've been relying on to this point (the offgridpermaculture.com site I linked to above) are full of errors. Looks like I ordered a bunch of extra fabric because it said to buy enough for 27 segments for the roof. By my calculations, each segment base of the pie triangle (lane?) will be 67" minus whatever fabric is used for the seams on the side and hem at the end, meaning 14 sections will put me a bit over the 905" needed for the circumference of the outer wall. Anyone able to play along at home with these numbers and verify I'm not flaking out here? Any feeling if those 14 sections and my calculated extra 33" will account for seams/hems/canvas shrinkage, should I go with 15 or 16?

The bolts of fabric are actually 68" but some of that is frayish looking stuff on the salvage edge (top and bottom of the bolt fabric, right?). I could also use tips on how to incorporate that edge into my seams if my description is clear enough, cut it clean first or just fold it under...?

Coydon, I have recovered umbrellas before, but usually I had some of the old panels to make a pattern from. I don't feel I have enough info to answer your questions.

If I could see the numbers as part of a picture, I'd be in a *much* better position to comment. I tried looking at the website you mentioned, and they do have a diagram there, but it's not clear to me which of your numbers match what on the diagram or why you figure you'll have so many fewer triangles than the calculator said it would take. If you can't draw a diagram on your phone, can you draw one on paper and take a photo and post it?

It's *really* important to have the triangles match the slope of the dome. It appears that the instructions have you sewing two right angle triangles together at the right angle edge (which are also the "salvage edges" ). Then those triangles have to match the slope of the dome or the roof won't lie smoothly. If it wasn't so big, I'd suggest you do a mock up out of old bed sheets if you're near a thrift shop.

I think I'd need a bunch more info.
1. You told us the diameter is 24' - do the rafters overhang the wall or match it?
2. How long are the rafters and do they meet at the top of the cone? How many rafters are there? Are they evenly spaced?
3. The link instructions have you sewing two right angle triangles together to form an isosceles triangle. Is the goal for those isosceles triangles to match the shape/size from one rafter to the next? If so, the width of your fabric needed to be 1/2 the distance between two rafters, minus several seam allowances (as a beginner sewer, I suggest you be generous with the width of the seam. They're using 5/8", but with heavy cotton, I'd go 3/4". You might think 1/8th won't make much difference, but I really think it will.

Jay Angler wrote:Coydon,

It's *really* important to have the triangles match the slope of the dome. It appears that the instructions have you sewing two right angle triangles together at the right angle edge (which are also the "salvage edges" ). Then those triangles have to match the slope of the dome or the roof won't lie smoothly. If it wasn't so big, I'd suggest you do a mock up out of old bed sheets if you're near a thrift shop.

I suggest a scale model - or part model using bedsheet/shirt cotton. Maybe 1/12th scale would work well if you're working in imperial? It could be a really cute project that you could sell as a dolls house afterwards....
Measure twice (or three times) cut and sew once!

I now have a bit of time to work out the canvas dimensions and my seam skills. The owner of campingyurts.com offered to talk to me on the phone about concerns. His opinion is that, beyond the straight up math errors at offgridpermaculture.com, their idea that basic dimensions will simply scale up by length is a poor one. The thicknesses I used for my rafters and wall lattice would be undersized, even for a 20' yurt. He said I should be okay as long as I was there to manually remove snow all winter, but unattended it stood a fair chance of collapse with weight from snow build up, doubly so with the missing lath/Uni from the calculator errors.

(Trying to attach pics of where we got to a few days ago)

On top of this, one lath broke during assembly and I noticed soon after a nearby one did also. As Richard at campingyurts pointed out, the diamonds in the lattice work need to be 90* square or tall diamonds to get full support from the wood, so being short those 5 mount points makes the wall short and is losing strength being over stretched. On top of that, a helper thought the tension band should go at the top of the wall so it got tied in there with the ends of the uni. I read yesterday that it should go 6-8 inches down, presumably to use the spring of the lattice work. I noticed during last night's thunder storm that the wall where the broken pieces are has started to buckle out and down instead of slightly in like it should be. Now I need to figure out how to bring the roof ring down without damaging anything so I can do repairs.

Jay, I think you have the basic understanding there. The rafters should overhang about an inch, so it is theoretically a 24' 2"circle, but this depends on how tight the knot is tied and how the wall is flexing (see pic at bottom).

The last two inches of rafter at the top are tenons that fit into a 38" diameter ring (See pic last post). The seams joining the pie slices will only go a bit past the start of the ring so that the tip of each slice can wrap around the inside of the ring, attaching back under itself. But the fabric will be sized as if it were all being sewn into a perfect cone. So instead of the 19" from edge of ring to center, it will be the cosine of 19 and the 41* angle of the rafter. I don't see any reason for that level of precision, willing to bet the extra distance there is maybe a coupe inches, and the tenons aren't precisely measured that close anyway. Call the total length 15' 7".

Sewing together seams shrinks the working piece by 5/8" per side. The fabric shrinks 3-4% according to the mfg. Richard said his yurts experienced this much more dramatically lengthwise than by width. I'd give it at least 5% shrink when calculating the long aspect of the pie slice. Finally, the ends of the roof need to extend past the rafter ends enough to be secured by another tension band.

Seems to me if you have the right outer diameter and length to the tip, you have geometrically defined the cone shape. When I tried to calculate these numbers in a spreadsheet yesterday, 197" was looking okay, but that was before Richard mentioned shrinkage to me. Now I'm on a smartphone and getting burned out by the interface, so will come back to double check it later...

Coydon Wallham wrote:

As Richard at campingyurts pointed out, the diamonds in the lattice work need to be 90* square or tall diamonds to get full support from the wood, so being short those 5 mount points makes the wall short and is losing strength being over stretched.

OK, your picture looks positively scary to me ( I figure we need all the permies we can get, so I *really* don't like loosing any due to accidents - being staff, I'm allowed to nag about safety first.)

Sooo... First you need to get the rafters back down to the ground then hopefully answer the following questions at least to yourself.
1. Could you bring your diameter in from 24' until the walls were vertical diamonds? I live in infrequent but very wet snow country, and the two yurts I've seen both had vertical diamonds.

2. Had you intended to put a uni rafter in every hole I can see in the ring, and simply hadn't got that far before deciding there were problems? If so, do you have the budget to buy more material and glue and screw to every rafter a second 2x4 vertically so you end up with a rafter that's approximately 1and1/2" wide by ~ 6and1/2" tall. Whatever the Camping Yurt guy recommends for safety. I'm not an engineer - I'm a sewer, but I'm seriously worried that you're under-engineered. Someone built an overhang on our barn out of 2x4s and several are broken. It's the vertical height (2x6 or 2x8) that gives strength for snow load in this sort of situation. Apparently round wood is stronger than dimensional lumber also, so you can't go by pictures of native yurts as they aren't really comparible.

3. As back-up, have you considered putting 3 vertical supports from the ring to the ground? Even if that's just to get you through this winter and then fix the problems in the spring. Ideally they would be adjustable because the yurt may settle and compress due to snow and soft ground.

Jay Angler wrote:OK, your picture looks positively scary to me

To be clear, those pictures are just some in progress shots sitting on my phone that I grabbed when I had the chance. Most of the uni rafters are now in. I had all of the uni prepared for all 58 holes, but by following the calculation numbers at the offgrid site I came up 10 lath short and no place to connect the uni to the wall. Adding those to the wall would provide 5 more points to mount those final 5 uni. I have the extra lath cut and drilled also as backups to replace broken ones, so I have everything ready to complete it to that level. An extra 10 lath will also raise the wall up to where it should be with 58" walls (it is sagging in spots now down to 50") with square or taller diamonds in the lattice. The plan all along has been to put at at least 2 supports up to the ring in the middle and to build some sort of loft off of the side of them. I was waiting to feel out how the RMH would take shape to design what and where that would be.

Right now I have a 15' of 2x4s screwed together with a 't' piece at the top wedged under the ring for emergency support. I think the next step is to build the 8' loft frame to have something to stand on and help take down the ring. I'll take apart the wall where the two broken lath are in order to repair them and add the extra pieces. One option that Richard suggested is a second door frame at the back to take up some of the space of the extra lath, as well as a way to break up the wall into sections for the canvas to have less effect as it shrinks (he was worried about how extreme shrinkage on a continuous 76' run of canvas would be). I like that idea, but I'm fighting the cold with the calendar so looking at the minimal way to get a solid structure up. At that point I can at least run propane heaters in the space to get above freezing for the rest of the work.

Jay Angler wrote: I'm not an engineer - I'm a sewer, but I'm seriously worried that you're under-engineered.

Now I'm concerned about your self esteem. Going pooless shouldn't be that bad...

Speaking of seriously though, I should make sure I have the mechanics of the sewing down so I'm ready when I get to that stage. I think it was you that recommended the french seam. This is helpful because it doesn't require the bulk of the fabric to be pushed under the machine arm. Richard says he uses a flat felled seam on his yurts- the same as is commonly found on the side of denim jeans. He didn't say why he uses it, but did say it wouldn't be water proof without 2 sided tape on the back of it (he thought that would be true of any seam).

Did you look at the seam style used at the offgridpermaculture site? They claim those came out waterproof without further treatment. They also said it wouldn't be much problem to slide the fabric for one pie slice through the arm of a robust sewing machine, that it was just the last seam where you complete the pie that this becomes difficult. If that seam would give better water resistance, I'd use that for all the pieces up to the end, then do the last one with a french stitch and treat that with wax...

Yes, going with flat felled would be good - it gives you two rows of stitching which adds strength.

I'm not sure how they're using the double-sided tape. My experience is that sewing through any sort of sticky tape is annoying because it gets the needle sticky, so if you're going to try it, ask what brand they use and be prepared to have to clean the needle after every seam.

I think the seam style on the link you gave is a flat felled - looked like a variation of it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GYCKrJ5yhw
Good explanation of the French and Flat felled, although I'd expect with thicker fabric, you'd need more seam allowance, and I certainly wouldn't be trimming to 1/8"!

I'm not sure how jeans side seams are sewn. They look similar to flat felled, but I honestly don't know if that's the way they're done.

How's your progress going?

This site may have been of help if you are not enclosed yet.
https://simplydifferently.org/Yurt_Notes?page=1
They have the calculations you are looking for.

James Sullivan wrote:How's your progress going?

This site may have been of help if you are not enclosed yet.
https://simplydifferently.org/Yurt_Notes?page=1
They have the calculations you are looking for.

It seems like a very thorough site, but all the measurements are in totalitarian, verry confuzing...

I actually think the guy at the site I was using might have referenced this one and lost some stuff in translation.

Given the amount of work I now have to redo and the sustained plunge of temperatures below freezing, I've suspended the dogged pursuit of tent life for the next two months in favor of a cabin rental.

I figure I can still make headway on the canvas indoors. I had a heck of a time cutting the first piece. Spent close to an hour trying to cut a 197 inch long rectangle from the bolt. I ended up pulling off the cross threads in an attempt to make the end 'square', but even after doing this on both ends it does not measure square. I'm assuming it has gotten partially wet and shrunk at different rates along different parts of the fabric. Not sure if it is better to just use the longest section that matches my number and go ahead with that, or try to soak the whole thing and hope it shrinks uniformly. The workshop I am working in is difficult to get above freezing, not sure how I would soak 50 yards of fabric and dry it...

Coydon Wallham worte:

The workshop I am working in is difficult to get above freezing, not sure how I would soak 50 yards of fabric and dry it...

Coydon, I fear that you're making an assumption that the fabric was square to begin with - been there, been caught by that!

Your goal of soaking the fabric and trying to "shrink it" - not just "dry it" - is an interesting challenge. Think in terms of trying to wash 25 pairs of jeans at once???
My friend once borrowed our cement mixer to wash some dirty heavy-weight shop coveralls, but I'm not convinced it would hold what you're washing.

How much spare fabric do you have? Enough that you can cut off the side-wall fabric with 2-3 feet extra and wash it separately? I've no sure idea of how much it will shrink, but it could add up to a lot over that many yards. The company you bought it from *might* be able to give you an estimate. The benefits though, are that the tighter you make the fabric now, the better it will repel water and the less chance it will shrink enough to tear on your frame after installation.

What you need is an industrial scale laundry - a laundromat that takes large duvets or things. A large hotel might have such a machine - or if they send that sort of thing out, be able to tell you where it's sent to.

Once washed, again, an industrial scale dryer would be ideal - it's the hot drying that does the work of shrinking. That's pretty much the only thing I use our dryer for! It's my "pre-shrinking machine".  

Hopefully someone will think of a good idea to help.

Dealing with a wet backpacking tent is a small nightmare, dealing with a wet yurt is outta your mind insane.  

My big tent (23 foot bell) is a little over a hundred pounds dry.  Manageable for two, barely.  It is a monster to deal with when wet. The old way of overlapping panels has advantages, it may weigh more overall but each piece is MUCH easier to deal with.

All right, back on the horse. I disassembled last year's effort when things started to thaw this spring. Probably should have waited until they were actually thawed because I snapped a few lath breaking them out of the ice.

I cut the rafters down to size for a 16' yurt, redid the cut end for mounting shape, and treated all the exposed wood with tung oil. I cut out all of the broken lath pieces and replaced them. The weaker links are out of the chain, should be all the stronger now. The rope knots they were tied with from last year have all expose a bit of slack. The wall feels a bit sloppy, but it holds. I went through some of the old knots, loosened them using an awl as a marlin spike. This seemed to work well, but took a long time per knot. I decided to see how it would hold with the slack and size up the roof fabric. I can retighten them when I move the frame to it's final spot for this winter.

As part of replacing the broken lath, I separated the wall into two sections and built a second door frame. I'll have a front and back door now, and the two halves of wall will be easier to handle, especially considering the first attempt was the entire 24' yurt wall in one shebang!

Besides figuring out the little assembly tricks over the next few days, I'm planning out the foundation. I haven't really found any conclusive info about what would be best. The two options I'm looking at right now are to lay out a pallet frame and build off of that, or to put the RMH on or slightly in the ground and work on an insulation scheme down there.

The pallet layout with RMH on it and a simple pebble box mass would be the default, though I'm not sure how that would go with making some sort of masonry for a bench or anything besides just the pebble boxes. IF the pallets can take that weight, the result is going to be much bulkier and obtrusive in the small yurt.

If I can put the RMH on the ground or slightly in it, I could integrate it as a split level arrangement. I could perhaps do this with the pallets, but it would be much more finaggling shape the pallets and the ground insulation question remains.

One confusing point here is that I have been told not to use sand in the RMH boxes because it is insulative and will not draw heat from the pipes. I'm also being told that the ground, which is 95+% sand below the 6-8" layer of topsoil is going to quickly suck away all the heat from anything touching it.

My thought was that something like the rigid insulation board around the perimeter going down a foot or two would help isolate the interior ground a bit, and the sand would slow the heat transfer away from there to keep the overall floor a good deal warmer than the frozen tundra outside.

If I were to put everything on top of pallets, what could be done under/inside the pallets to insulate there and keep rodents from overrunning the place? I'd consider using some non-WL wholesome materials for insulation, as long as they don't offgas into living spaces and can be removed cleanly and easily in the future. I figured the rigid insulation might be like that, could be dug out of the earth in a few years without any deterioration?

From your first entry I see this,

gick production monstrosity

What does it mean please?

John C Daley wrote:From your first entry I see this,

gick production monstrosity

What does it mean please?

A manifestation of collective consumer culture based on the belief that we need to bring comfort to the masses by utilizing materials and practices that are degenerative to the long term health of many humans and our collective environment. It is generated from businesses and political groups that profit by marketing to petty greed and exploiting externalities to produce ubiquitous forms of pollution.

I find "gick production monstrosity" rolls off the tongue a bit easier though...

Coydon Wallham wrote:

what could be done under/inside the pallets to insulate there and keep rodents from overrunning the place?  

Stainless steel 1/4" hardware cloth on the ground and up the sides sewn together with wire so there's *no* way the little rodents can chew their way in!!!
Can you tell I'm having rodent problems??? Seriously - exclude them from the beginning because there are very few ways to eliminate them if they've decided they like your digs.

From my experience sewing tent roofs to cover a 28' x 18' portable building with a 2x4/6 framed hip roof (three iterations over a 30 year period), simple 1" overlapped seams triple stitched along the selvages running vertically work fine without leaks. This is the same as commercial canvas rental tents before they went to plastic roofs. I did use flat felled or similar seams for the hip ridge seams, as they were cut on a significant diagonal and I didn't want fraying to be an issue.

I used a very heavy waxed canvas for the first version, which shrank at least 10-12 percent in length and required sewing on extensions twice to reach the edges of the roof frame. It was a nightmare, but I did sew it with my old (1950s) Singer sewing machine.

For the second and third versions, I have used sunforger boatshrunk canvas, much lighter and easier to handle. It has stood up to serious thunderstorms in an open field with the roof flapping like mad. The second one did not shrink to speak of, but the most recent one did shrink about 8-10 percent in length, and I think stretched a couple percent in width.

I'm starting to think that I'm not doing a very good job with the "quick" part of this project...

The roof frame is up and I tried the mostly-sewn canvas on it. I calculated the run of the roof based on the theoretical dimensions, and added about 5 inches of 'slop' for shrinkage or whatever. Unfortunately I am still working off the website I started this style of yurt construction from, trying to account for all the errors and lack of detail there. I failed to account for the end of the rafters that extend past the wall lattice for a slight over hang. More importantly, his instructions on making the roof canvas don't mention the need to secure the overhang at the bottom of the roof to the wall with a strap/rope, or I would have included more than 5" for overhang.

I'm going to sew on an additional 'slice' to the roof fabric 'pie' before closing the circle. I'm not sure if this will allow the outer diameter to expand far enough to allow the overhang, or if the result will be loose fitting enough to sag between the rafters or something. The basic length of the roof run will be the same, but there is the extra fabric at the top 'point' of each pie slice that is just serving as extra to secure the top around the ring which I hope will allow expansion of the entire diameter.

I need to do the wall now also, which is primarily just unrolling the right length of fabric from the bolt as it should already be sized properly top to bottom. I'm not clear on the need to hem or not. Do factory cut edges hold okay? Will placing grommets to secure it to the door and rafters need a hem for reinforcement?

Coydon Wallham wrote:I need to do the wall now also, which is primarily just unrolling the right length of fabric from the bolt as it should already be sized properly top to bottom. I'm not clear on the need to hem or not. Do factory cut edges hold okay?

Factory "cut" edges? Normally, if you've got a whole bolt, the edges would be what we call the "salvage" where the warp turns and goes back through the weft. It *may* shrink differently than the body of the fabric, but not likely by enough to cause you grief with this project. If I'm correct that you don't plan on moving this yurt regularly, there shouldn't be much tendency for the edge to wear, so I suspect a hem won't be needed.

Will placing grommets to secure it to the door and rafters need a hem for reinforcement?

I would strongly recommend some sort of reinforcement. Hemming would help, but more so would buying something like wide twill tape and sewing that on. In twill tape, rather than the threads just running in two directions at approximate right angles, it's like a braided edging with more angles involved. A friend recently salvaged some shade cloth, and there was a heavy twill tape all along it's edge with rivets through it. If my explanation isn't clear, I can try and remember to take a picture of it this morning.

Jay Angler wrote:Factory "cut" edges? Normally, if you've got a whole bolt, the edges would be what we call the "salvage" where the warp turns and goes back through the weft. It *may* shrink differently than the body of the fabric, but not likely by enough to cause you grief with this project. If I'm correct that you don't plan on moving this yurt regularly, there shouldn't be much tendency for the edge to wear, so I suspect a hem won't be needed.

I would strongly recommend some sort of reinforcement. Hemming would help, but more so would buying something like wide twill tape and sewing that on. In twill tape, rather than the threads just running in two directions at approximate right angles, it's like a braided edging with more angles involved. A friend recently salvaged some shade cloth, and there was a heavy twill tape all along it's edge with rivets through it. If my explanation isn't clear, I can try and remember to take a picture of it this morning.

I have very little textile experience, so appreciate any basic clarifications offered. This yurt is mostly about the ability to relocate a few times as needed at this point. When I build further ones I will tweak them to make at least one that would be an easier frequent travel assembly. I'm worried now about stress on the fabric from wind and snow load.

The latest advice from Richard at campingyurts.com, a very helpful and knowledgable yurt expert, is to avoid grommets:

sew 1” strap loops onto the hem and use that to tie down. It will hold better. Sew a box with a cross in it.

I agree with Richard - I've had too many grommets fail. However, notice he used the term "hem" so that suggests he recommends folding over the fabric at the edges.