Financial Realities vs Waste

Spinning this off from another thread that we were derailing.
The background of what we were saying:

Dan Boone

       Anne Miller wrote:
       I had heard of melting plastic bottles, etc. into bricks so roofing tiles is along those lines.  I don't really have a need for bricks or roof tiles.



   My instant reaction to this is "OMG, I could use an infinite supply of cinder-block-sized bricks to build garden edgings, raised beds, and tree protection structures."

   Of course making them from plastics raises other issues to be considered, including fuel sources, process emissions, and product stability.  All of these have implications for zero-waste thinking, also possibly good solutions, so it's complicated.

   Pearl Sutton
   and, rereading this thread, Dan Boone's comment about making cinder block sized landscaping bricks REALLY appeals to my weird little world... I may be doing that one! I hate seeing waste, can do things like make bricks easy, and have been trying to figure out what I'd like to do for a few areas that need about 12 inch high dirt retaining walls by the driveway.

Then we posted as follows below

Dan Boone wrote:

Pearl Sutton wrote:and, rereading this thread, Dan Boone's comment about making cinder block sized landscaping bricks REALLY appeals to my weird little world... I may be doing that one! I hate seeing waste, can do things like make bricks easy, and have been trying to figure out what I'd like to do for a few areas that need about 12 inch high dirt retaining walls by the driveway.

Oh, if you do, please be sure to share pictures and let us know what you learn about the practicalities of your process!  I would be excited to hear about this and see photos.
I have not tried it yet.  As usual, I have more ideas than time or ambition.

If I do, I'll tell you how it worked :) I too have more ideas than energy, but that is just a cool idea.

I feel I should point out that on the Paul Wheaton eco scale he puts "contemplating zero waste" and "eliminating 95% of toxic gick" on roughly the same level.  I won't speak for him (in fact I already know we differ) but it's fair to say there are two different ways to look at the "melt a bunch of soft/fragile plastic into a hard/useful structural brick" notion.  My own view is that if you can find a way to do it for a reasonable amount of hassle, with a reasonable amount of energy expenditure, while liberating no unreasonable amount of pollution, you've reduced the erodible "threat surfaces" of all that yucky plastic waste, replacing it with one solid durable useful object that will have a (relative) tiny surface area from which to shed toxins and much less opportunity to break down into forty zillion tiny pieces in your garden soil or somebody else's landfill, river, or ocean.  

But you will still have a (presumably roughly cubical) object made out of toxic gick that sits in your yard shedding some small-but-measurable-by-science amount of toxins into your environment.

Yeah, that is an issue, and that might make it so when I have energy to do this, I don't. Or I may have found a better option in the free stuff that comes my way category. I'm told the land here reliably produces two crops of rocks a year, so I may end up doing something with rocks. Or bricks or blocks if any show up. or melted glass. But if that little dirt edge doesn't get restrained with something solid, I'm going to end up having to use machinery to level it periodically, and that is a bad option in my eyes. Anything that can be done right needs to be. And some kind of edging is required, I have no energy to keep messing with it for years. I'd honestly prefer bricks or rocks.

 My own ethics suggest that if it's a choice between this, and sending plastics for which I am otherwise responsible "away" (when, truly, there is no "away") that I ought to suck it up and do it.  But maybe the edge of the driveway is indeed better than around my edibles.

I doubt I'd put bricks like that around my edibles. That's not likely at ALL. But the cars, trucks, and tractors are already going by there, it's already not food space in my eyes. And there IS no "away." which is really the problem in the world.

the dilemma does raise the question of why am I responsible for all these plastics?

Oh, I'm NOT!!! I'd be getting the plastic out of the recycle bins. I buy VERY little in plastic. However, getting any out of the waste stream might be good. It sickens me to see what gets thrown out.
Like I said, it's an interesting idea, and I need something there to retain dirt. I'm tossing it in my back pocket, if I don't end up with something I prefer, it might be a viable alternative :) And the waste I see sickens me.

At risk of being rude to Paul, sorry, no insult intended, he is not a physically small, health challenged female doing it basically alone (with 80 year old mom) on a low budget. We have different things we are willing to/required to tolerate to make our lives work. And different parameters of what it needs to do when it's done. One of mine is the driveway has to be smooth enough for a non-powered wheelchair. That means no dirt drifts across it. His is no toxic gick, and that's high on mine, but I HAVE to be able to access my land, even if my health crashes again. And I don't think that's high on his needs/expectations list. I'm hoping I never need it. But I'd be a fool to not design for it. If I do need it, I will not be able to change it at that point. My health has been horrifying since 1996, I'm currently doing well, by my standards, not using my canes often etc. But I also know how fast that can change, and has changed in the past.

I'm hoping bricks show up! Weird things do show up in my world. I hunt them down and drag them home! Anyone got bricks they'd bring me? :)

Pearl Sutton wrote:

the dilemma does raise the question of why am I responsible for all these plastics?

Oh, I'm NOT!!!

Well, I am.  I buy stuff in plastic packaging because I want/need the stuff, and I buy plastic items (mostly containers, mostly used at garage sales) because they are incredibly cheap and fill some need in my life.  Although this has become rare as I have accumulated more and more heavy metal and crockery and glass containers, to the point where the few things I get in plastic these days are typically very thick and industrial (like food-grade plastic barrels) that will likely last longer than I do before deteriorating into fragments.  But I have a ridiculous hangover in my container garden of plastic garden pots (designed for that purpose and recycled containers repurposed) from when I first started gardening, and many of these are now fragile/deteriorating and making me PAY for my foolishness in bringing them onto the property.  It seemed like a good idea at the time; indeed it may have been a good idea at the time as my alternatives were few/none; but it was not without its costs and I have a significant measure of regret now.

And I live in a household with other people who buy plastic shit willy-nilly and don't see an issue with it.  That's not going to change.  Bottled water, soft drinks, deli salads, whatever.  Heck, I often have to buy fresh veggies in those plastic clamshells if I want to buy them at all; I can't just slag off the people in my family without owning my own behavior.  I'm not willing to eat a more restricted diet in this food desert I live in because of the packaging of the limited selection of stuff that actually is available.  It doesn't, I think, make sense.  

Pearl I also think you make some really good points about making your life work on a low budget.  I could drive two hours each way and buy those same veggies at Whole Foods and bring them home in a paper sack, but (a) I can't afford the gasoline or the triple-retail price of the veggies, and (b) in avoiding the plastic waste I'll burn more petroleum than is embodied in the plastic, so I'm not sure it's a net ethical positive even if I was rich enough to do it.  I sometimes feel there's a strain of rich-people condescension in some corners of the permaculture movement.  It's utterly possible to be a perfect permie peasant (a gert) if you're blessed with sufficient land and health and able-bodiedness and past history of cultivation to have all your  food systems in place, but failing that, you can't live a life free of toxins eating perfect organic food unless you are really rich.  And sometimes people who are really rich and do spend a ton of money on stuff like plastics-free food storage and serving gear come across as if they are sneering at the less-than-perfect peasants who can't afford to eliminate every scrap of plastic from their domestic arrangements.  I don't think it's conscious or intended; I think it's just privilege.  The cost of eliminating risk (from toxins or anything else) increases on a curve; and some people get into an obsessive "I want to eliminate every last bit of risk" mode than only rich people could ever manage, because poor people are like "I'm out ... if I had that kind of money, I'd have bought a new tractor" long before they ever get there.

Pearl Sutton wrote:I'm hoping bricks show up! Weird things do show up in my world. I hunt them down and drag them home! Anyone got bricks they'd bring me? :)

I am still waiting for a truckload of glass bricks to fall into my lap!  I live in bad hailstorm country; I am never going to get a decent greenhouse unless I can engineer it to withstand some pretty serious severe weather.  And with new glass brick going for eight bucks a brick, it's out of my league.  But I'm hoping for the right deal on a bunch of used/demolition/cruddy ones...

Would bottle bricks work for you?



On topic, everyone here uses a computer or phone and most use a car of some kind, yet I have encountered condemnation and snobbery over material choices here.
That said, I have profited from being challenged to try more natural solutions.

I'm city located and NOT keeping or bringing home materials is my challenge.
I have concluded that I'm more motivated to be independent of employment than ecologically sustainable.
Fortunately, these goals are largely in sync.
Reducing waste is low hanging fruit in both cases.

Here is what one guy that has no access to recycling does:

https://www.instructables.com/id/TRASH-ROCKS-Eliminate-Unrecyclable-Trash/

Dan Boone wrote:
I buy stuff in plastic packaging because I want/need the stuff, and I buy plastic items (mostly containers, mostly used at garage sales) because they are incredibly cheap and fill some need in my life.

 
I recycle/reuse other people's trash for the same reason.

the few things I get in plastic these days are typically very thick and industrial (like food-grade plastic barrels) that will likely last longer than I do before deteriorating into fragments.  

 
One of  the wisest things I ever read about plastics is that they are great for some uses, but single use disposable items is NOT what they are good for. My opinion is things like IBC's and barrels are useful, things like cheap water bottles are not.

But I have a ridiculous hangover in my container garden of plastic garden pots (designed for that purpose and recycled containers repurposed) from when I first started gardening, and many of these are now fragile/deteriorating and making me PAY for my foolishness in bringing them onto the property.  It seemed like a good idea at the time; indeed it may have been a good idea at the time as my alternatives were few/none; but it was not without its costs and I have a significant measure of regret now.

 
I may end up at your stage of regret at some point. I try to choose pretty carefully what I bring in, and watch it for deterioration, and send it back to the recycle bins I found them in before they run amok. But I may end up regretting what I'm doing. Currently it's my best option.

And I live in a household with other people who buy plastic shit willy-nilly and don't see an issue with it.  That's not going to change.  Bottled water, soft drinks, deli salads, whatever.  Heck, I often have to buy fresh veggies in those plastic clamshells if I want to buy them at all; I can't just slag off the people in my family without owning my own behavior.  I'm not willing to eat a more restricted diet in this food desert I live in because of the packaging of the limited selection of stuff that actually is available.  It doesn't, I think, make sense.

We don't buy it willy nilly, and we try to choose well what does get bought in plastic. A LOT of why I'm getting things growing is so we don't have to MAKE that choice. Design our lives better from the ground up, so it's not required in the first place. But, there are only two of us (me and mom) so it's pretty easy to keep current stuff under control. A larger household with differing goals is a different issue.

:::And now we get to where I was about to totally derail the other thread:::

Pearl I also think you make some really good points about making your life work on a low budget.  I could drive two hours each way and buy those same veggies at Whole Foods and bring them home in a paper sack, but (a) I can't afford the gasoline or the triple-retail price of the veggies, and (b) in avoiding the plastic waste I'll burn more petroleum than is embodied in the plastic, so I'm not sure it's a net ethical positive even if I was rich enough to do it.

Exactly!! There are goals, preferences, and reality. Reality is I can't do that either. This is why I am going the direction I am right now. My goal is no toxins. My preferences are as few toxins as possible. My reality is low income at the moment.

I sometimes feel there's a strain of rich-people condescension in some corners of the permaculture movement.  It's utterly possible to be a perfect permie peasant (a gert) if you're blessed with sufficient land and health and able-bodiedness and past history of cultivation to have all your food systems in place, but failing that, you can't live a life free of toxins eating perfect organic food unless you are really rich.  And sometimes people who are really rich and do spend a ton of money on stuff like plastics-free food storage and serving gear come across as if they are sneering at the less-than-perfect peasants who can't afford to eliminate every scrap of plastic from their domestic arrangements.  I don't think it's conscious or intended; I think it's just privilege.  The cost of eliminating risk (from toxins or anything else) increases on a curve; and some people get into an obsessive "I want to eliminate every last bit of risk" mode than only rich people could ever manage, because poor people are like "I'm out ... if I had that kind of money, I'd have bought a new tractor" long before they ever get there.

(I personally really dislike the word privilege, I think it's really being over used these days.)
What I see in what you say is a variant of Paul Wheaton's Eco Scale. https://permies.com/t/3069/a/41858/the-wheaton-eco-scale.jpg I LOVE that scale, to me it is a visual of one of the scales we all live on. But it's only one. The Eco-scale. We all have a multitude of scales we live on, including our relationships with other people, with animals, with jobs, with medical preferences, with our health, with our diet, and with our finances. (And so many more!) The best part of Paul's scale for me is the things at the top, Observations 1 & 2. Other people who are ahead or behind you on the scale are approved or disapproved of. We get annoyed at people who are far behind us, we feel like we are being sneered at by people ahead of us, or they are just crazy weird. The reality is we are all where we are on all of our scales. There is no one scale we all can be charted on. Where I am at on my toxin removal scale is intertwined with where I am on my financial scale, which ties into where I am on my job scale, and where you are on you "converting your household to less waste" scale. The reactions to people above and below us on the scales is human nature, unfortunately. No group has a monopoly on it. Everyone does it to one extent or another.

As a less than perfect peasant, I dig in the recycle bins, where the people who are at the stage they know the plastic needs to do something besides get trashed put their stuff. I consider it a resource, to be harvested for my own use. I use where they are to get me where I want to be. One of these days I'll have all my food stored in glass. Today, it's too heavy for me to move some things if they are in glass, and the plastic things I like the size and shape of are free. So that's where I am. Later maybe I'll be farther along, either in health, finances, or I will have accumulated enough glass in sizes I can deal with to put all my food stuff in.

As a person designing/building a house, I look at the serious passive house people, and I take the concepts and modify them down to what I can afford to do. There's a school of thought in the sub-passive house world called "the good enough" house, where you do the 95% that is easy to do in all the areas if you think about it more than is usual, and a bit more where you can, and you call it good, realizing you are 8 miles above a basic tract house at that point. An example there is windows: super cheap ones leak a LOT of air; average double paned from Lowe's leak a lot less, but still leak; the next real step up in air leakage is about 4x the price. I'm stopping at average, and putting in excellent shuttering, curtains, and air flow systems designed to account for the fact my windows will leak air. My systems are function stacked, they are doing other things also, so it's an affordable solution to the issue. If I get rich, I'll change out to the great windows. But I'm not starting there, I can't.

It seems to me we, as humans, get all snarled up in either "I can't do enough about it, so I just won't do anything" or "I will throw enough money at it to make it go away, or at least get out of my sight." I like to walk the line of learning what I CAN do, right now, today, and doing it, and keeping in mind the design of what I want to be doing in the future, and shifting toward it as I can. To me it's a systems design thing, and that is what attracts me to permaculture, the living system design that is the pattern of what you work toward. And you start work on a permaculture design by looking at the goals, the preferences, and the reality of the land you are working on. I think we need to look at all of that with the rest of our lives too. Do I do it perfectly? Hell no! But I'm on a scale someplace, and trying to move up it.

So back to financial realities vs waste. I am at "gather other people's trash as a resource" on some scale someplace. So I put energy into doing it as effectively as I can, and mixing it with my other systems that mitigate the damage as much as possible. If I make plastic bricks, I will be using them in an already designated toxic zone (the driveway) and I will make them out of as well chosen plastic as I can find, and put on the exterior the most effective sealant I can. And if and when I can replace them, at least the blocks will degrade less messily where they end up going. And if I can come up with something higher on my scale before I get to these things, I will happily bypass them.

So my questions to others who read this is: Where are you on your own financial realities vs waste? Where would you like to be? Do you have a plan to get there? Are you taking steps to minimize the damage along the way?

Pearl Sutton wrote:Exactly!! There are goals, preferences, and reality. Reality is I can't do that either. This is why I am going the direction I am right now. My goal is no toxins. My preferences are as few toxins as possible. My reality is low income at the moment.

That's a great way of putting it!  I differ in worldview enough that I have to express it another way, though.  Everything we do has both a cost and a benefit, including toxin-reduction.  And chemicals we consider toxins (a) cannot be eliminated entirely to the last molecule at any reasonable cost nor (b) do am I convinced they need to be, since even the most deadly poison is harmless if your body encounters only a few molecules of it now and then ("the dose makes the poison").  But the cost of avoiding/removing/eliminating toxins goes up on a sharp geometric curve the closer you get to zero.  It's much easier/cheaper to get rid of the first 10% of the pollutants and poisons in your life than it is the next 10%, and so forth; with that last 10% being incredibly difficult! We all know this.  Which is why, if you're income constrained, it makes sense to stop and think sometimes: does it make sense to incur costs in this area of my life to avoid/reduce another lower level of toxins when I might profitably invest that money in some other area where I could avoid/reduce more?  That's why it doesn't make sense to drive four hours round trip to Whole Foods to buy veggies that aren't packaged in plastic.  

But we all know rich people who don't account for externalities who think that trip does make sense.  "OMG, I don't want to bring plastic onto my property, I'll burn all this oil out on the highway where I don't have to breath my own exhaust, to avoid that."

Pearl Sutton wrote:
(I personally really dislike the word privilege, I think it's really being over used these days.)

That's totally fair, and I agree with you.  But it can be useful.  You knew at once what I meant, didn't you?

Pearl Sutton wrote:What I see in what you say is a variant of Paul Wheaton's Eco Scale. https://permies.com/t/3069/a/41858/the-wheaton-eco-scale.jpg I LOVE that scale, to me it is a visual of one of the scales we all live on. But it's only one. The Eco-scale. We all have a multitude of scales we live on, including our relationships with other people, with animals, with jobs, with medical preferences, with our health, with our diet, and with our finances. (And so many more!) The best part of Paul's scale for me is the things at the top, Observations 1 & 2. Other people who are ahead or behind you on the scale are approved or disapproved of. We get annoyed at people who are far behind us, we feel like we are being sneered at by people ahead of us, or they are just crazy weird. The reality is we are all where we are on all of our scales. There is no one scale we all can be charted on. Where I am at on my toxin removal scale is intertwined with where I am on my financial scale, which ties into where I am on my job scale, and where you are on you "converting your household to less waste" scale. The reactions to people above and below us on the scales is human nature, unfortunately. No group has a monopoly on it. Everyone does it to one extent or another.

I agree with you about there being a bunch of different scales, and them being intertwined, but differently for different people.  However, I think the negative reactions I'm talking about are more than that, which is why I did -- carefully and with malice aforethought -- deploy the word privilege.  I think few would deny that there's a strain of thinking in permaculture that we are gonna save the world with this stuff.  And the disapproval for people not high enough on the scale is not just "human nature" but informed by this notion that "we are trying to save the world and YOU ARE NOT HELPING!" Which is fine as far as it goes, but when it collides with the geometric scale of cost for getting rid of that last iota of toxins (especially when we are down in that quantum of "a few molecules" where the compounds are difficult to even measure and in "dose makes the poison" terms it's hard to make an argument that the stuff is even toxic, so we are only avoiding them because of the precautionary principle anyway) then having rich people appear to forget that not everybody is rich and being shouty and sneery with their "YOU ARE NOT HELPING" when I'm just trying to scrounge up a plastic tub to keep the moles out of my tomato roots so that I can grow a tomato that isn't green and square and soaked in ethylene gas, yeah it gets old.  And I don't think it's just the eco-scale stuff.  I do think privilege plays a part.  Because I am making the call that having the blue food grade plastic that the calf-feed cubes were distributed in on my property and near my tomato roots is putting less toxins into my life (and into the broader world) than buying truck-farmed tomatoes grown with pesticides half a continent away, which is the only other option I can afford.  And invariably someone will say "Why don't you just go to the farmer's market or buy organic?" as if I didn't (a) live in a food desert where every effort at functioning farmers markets fails and (b) could afford the gasoline to reach the kind of premium supermarkets where organic is available.

Meanwhile, to get fully back on topic, I took that calf feed tub out of the waste stream for ... however long they last, I have not had one disintegrate on me yet.  Other people's garbage; specifically, a old rancher with a heart problem having a "living estate sale" who had a whole pile of them marked "free, take all you want."  My SUV smelled like cow shit for the rest of the summer, but it was totally worth it.

Pearl Sutton wrote:One of these days I'll have all my food stored in glass. Today, it's too heavy for me to move some things if they are in glass, and the plastic things I like the size and shape of are free. So that's where I am. Later maybe I'll be farther along, either in health, finances, or I will have accumulated enough glass in sizes I can deal with to put all my food stuff in.

Ha!  I am on that journey too.  I have a midden/pile of empty plastic dollar store screw top quart plastic cannisters no longer in use, looking for a future use or home.  (I like to give stuff away in them, especially to people who I don't particularly like.)  Because I keep finding antique blue Atlas-type wire-bale or screw-top-with-ceramic-insert canning jars (in sizes from pint to half-gallon) at garage sales for a dollar.  And I bought a whole bag of replacement food-grade silicone gaskets from eBay/China to replace the old natural rubber seals they used to have on the wire-bale jars.  So, slowly, I move to glass.  

Pearl Sutton wrote:As a person designing/building a house, I look at the serious passive house people, and I take the concepts and modify them down to what I can afford to do. There's a school of thought in the sub-passive house world called "the good enough" house, where you do the 95% that is easy to do in all the areas if you think about it more than is usual, and a bit more where you can, and you call it good, realizing you are 8 miles above a basic tract house at that point. An example there is windows: super cheap ones leak a LOT of air; average double paned from Lowe's leak a lot less, but still leak; the next real step up in air leakage is about 4x the price. I'm stopping at average, and putting in excellent shuttering, curtains, and air flow systems designed to account for the fact my windows will leak air. My systems are function stacked, they are doing other things also, so it's an affordable solution to the issue. If I get rich, I'll change out to the great windows. But I'm not starting there, I can't.

House I live in has original 1974 windows and enough other issues that windows are not going to get to the top of the priority list any time soon.  My wife doesn't mind leaking air during the summer cooling season (and it's her house) but come winter when she starts feeling drafts she gets very obsessive about winterizing the windows on an individual basis with winterizing kits and lots of tape.  I'm talking a treatment that would make an Egyptian mummy proud.  Rather than fight it, I've just worked it into my "other people's waste streams" routine -- you would be amazed how many unused winterizing supplies go for fifty cents or a buck during the middle of a hot summer at garage sales.  This year I got one of those huge twenty dollar kits full of that microthin clear film that you tape up and shrink with a hair dryer; I hate the stuff because it's a fragile one-season solution at best, sometimes it's a one-blizzard solution if humidity starts to peel the tape.  But I paid fifty cents for it and it will make her happy and we will definitely save more than fifty cents in unburnt natural gas during however long it stays up.  I couldn't justify buying it as a new product, but as a waste stream intervention?  I'm fine with it.


I'm really happy that you broke these issues out into a stand-alone thread.  It wasn't fair what we were doing to that other one.  But I do think it's a crucial discussion.  There is a ridiculously huge amount of waste material being generated in our society at all levels, and sort of by definition it's mixed (or just inherently is) pollution depending on how you look at it.  I do feel there's a tendency for wealthier permies to argue for, or follow and adopt as a lifestyle, a sort of "get it off me! get it away from me!" approach to all that waste.  And I do understand that urge.  But much of that waste is also resource.  And I believe passionately that the principles of permaculture not only have room for, but actively demand, using those resources where it makes sense.  Poorer permies are, I think, forced to this realization fairly naturally; we look around for what's available instead of rejecting all that is distasteful and then reaching for our wallets to fill the resulting resource-voids.  

Do we sometimes learn hard lessons the hard way in the process?  I certainly did, when it comes to using flimsy plastic buckets as garden tubs; I'll be picking up those fragments for the rest of my life.  So I'm not saying to do it mindlessly.  But I think it has to be done, and I know that anyway it will be done regardless of what I think.

P.S.  I am eternally grateful that somebody here on Permies (I know longer remember who or in what thread) warned me about landscape fabrics, plastic carpet, plastic-weave dogfood bags, and all the other plastic woven textiles that often get used for mulch or other outdoor purposes but which eventually wind up disintegrating in the soil as horrible wads of plastic fibers.  I never made that mistake and don't have that problem anywhere on my property.

This is why I love this site, I came here to learn about growing food, I’m learning so much more. This conversation has been great, I’m not sure what more I can add to it.

I think a scale for this sort of thing makes a lot of sense. Dan makes a lot of sense when saying removing the first 10% of gunk in your life is easier than the next and then you get into diminishing returns. Also I like this line:

Dan Boone wrote:But much of that waste is also resource.  And I believe passionately that the principles of permaculture not only have room for, but actively demand, using those resources where it makes sense.

I had a moment of “get it off me” when it comes to plastic stuff in my life just last week. I was thinking that we probably shouldn’t be using plastic cooking utensils. Then bought new metal or bamboo ones to replace them. Looking at it like it’s on a scale, that action wouldn’t be as high on the scale as replacing those items with ones bought at a flea market. Or finding them in another person’s bin. I had the financial means for it in the moment and didn’t think much past it. I was also more concerned with not having plastic stuff leach into my food, than contributing to waste streams. I would have went further, and replaced our tupperware, plastic wrap, food bags, toddler’s sippy cups, etc with non-plastic stuff. But there I would have been spending a lot, so have stalled on that. And after reading through this thread, I won’t just buy new replacements.

Continuing to think of this as a scale, I don’t think I’m at the level Pearl is with going through other people’s recycling bins. I’m not trying to say anything bad about it, and actually in the context of this discussion, it seems like the right thing to do. You’re turning a waste output into a useful input. I know that in my brain, but I have a hard time convincing myself to do that. I’m still trying to convince myself to pick up the bags of leaves that will be appearing on the side of the road very soon. I’m sorry to say that stigma is holding me back on that.

Thanks for this discussion, it’s given me a lot to think about.

Also, as an aside, a “living estate sale” sounds surreal and awkward. But makes a lot of sense.  

Jeffrey Carlson wrote:I’m still trying to convince myself to pick up the bags of leaves that will be appearing on the side of the road very soon. I’m sorry to say that stigma is holding me back on that.

I can't do that either, although I mourn the waste when I see those bags.  Partly it's the extreme taboo against trespassing that exists in these parts; you don't set a foot onto property not your own, not for any reason, not unless you're going up the center of the driveway to knock on the door.  And that taboo is enforced with dogs and firearms.  The other part is my own hangups about what I might find in the bags beside leaves: dead animals, cat litter, trash ... mostly it would be things I could pick out or compost, but the risk of surprise grossness is an additional deterrent for me.  

Dumpster "diving" I am happy to do, if the dumpster is in a parking lot or other public-access place and nobody much is around.  But I wouldn't literally get into one for anything short of major treasure.  I'm tall and have long arms, I do walk-by visual inspections and snag treasures from anywhere in the upper half without much difficulty.  I would need a small athletic minion to do any actual diving.  Damn my decision not to have children!  (Can children be rented?)

Jeffrey Carlson wrote:Also, as an aside, a “living estate sale” sounds surreal and awkward. But makes a lot of sense.  

Yup.  A lot of old ranchers have them when they are ready to sell the cows and move somewhere closer to the grandkids.  They have barns full of tools and crap that's worth a lot of money and frequently there's some kid with a sentimental attachment to the land so they aren't selling that, but they can't leave it all sitting in unattended buildings either.  

The other version I see is when the person having the "living estate sale" is clearly suffering from heart or lung disease and runs the whole sale from a chair, with helpers.  That's always surreal and sad, but it seems to be motivated by a "getting my affairs in order" impulse.

First, I'm really enjoying this thread. I'm probably not as good at reusing things as I should be, but stuff gives me anxiety.

Second, I think a living estate sale is an excellent idea. We don't do it that way in our family exactly, but we all purge and pass along things prior to our deaths. I don't want to leave that burden to my children. Fortunately, I'm in the process of selling my home and moving out of state, so I'm taking this time to divide up anything the kids want. My kids and my ex are all setting up house, so most everything is wanted, the rest gets donated. I dislike selling to the public. I would rather give it away.

I get frustrated with my kids who are not at the same level as me, but I try to remember that if I spend all my time annoyed with them over this stuff, I won't have time to enjoy them. Life is too short.

There are two particular waste areas that bother me in our household that I have had to try to find balance with.

My husband orders a lot of motor parts for his business, so we end up with the packaging.  I reuse or recycle the plastic and cardboard where I can, but there is still other packaging waste.  I just try to remind myself that the mail truck comes anyway so at least we arent wasting gas running to the store.  Also, his workshop is at home so there is no work commute.  I dont like the package waste, but the reality is we need income and there are some positives at least.

The other area is my chickens.  I have to get the "cheap feed" at Tractor Supply in the plastic bags.  I can at least reuse the package as trash bags (they can hold the other package trash🙄) for trash and recycling.  The cost of organic feed is out of my reach.  I try to look for the reality vs financial factor as my chickens have a huge run and get to free range several hours a day so they can supplement their diet with good stuff.  I have friends who freeze and save their kitchen waste for me (mostly produce and bread) and they are supplemented with stale bread and wilted produce that are left end of week from a friend who volunteers at the food pantry. I figure although I cant get them the better feed, the other parts help balance out.  Also important is they can have happy chicken lives more so than if I just bought high quality eggs vs even having the birds.  I wouldnt know what the commercial birds really ate anyway, even if I could buy high end meat and eggs.  They also provide toward bug patrol, fertilizer and entertainment.

I have really enjoyed the discussion on these financial and waste threads.  There are a lot of important areas to examine.  Thank you for all the ideas.

Pearl Sutton wrote:
One of  the wisest things I ever read about plastics is that they are great for some uses, but single use disposable items is NOT what they are good for. My opinion is things like IBC's and barrels are useful, things like cheap water bottles are not.

True, in my opinion.  And this is a real good thread, with one major theme being useful plastic manufactured things and plastic packaging.  Anybody know of a good North American public movement to dial-down our societal acceptance of plastic packaging?  (Please provide online links if you know of something well organized.  I’d like to 1. learn; 2) dialogue and share what I’ve learned how to do.)

China has been the major recipient of recyclable materials — metals, paper, cardboard, glass, and plastic.  But the Chinese are now forbidding shipments of recyclables from Canada and the U.S. if the separation (purity) isn’t something like 98% complete.  And that’s complicated by the fact that many blister-wrapped retail items are sold in a package that’s part cardboard and part plastic.  It’s causing huge problems for community/regional recycling systems globally.

When I find a used or throwaway metal container of a size I can use (and “food safe” ones only, for garden and food related uses), I acquire it… I buy it if it’s cheap enough.  I try to avoid plastics by buying screws, nuts, bolts in bulk, by taking home foods we can’t grow in cloth bags, not plastic.  Etc.  But when I buy some needed small hand tools, or replacement parts for vehicles, machines & equipment, partial-plastic packaging can be unavoidable.

I’d think that in the non-food realms, many items & kits could be delivered in cardboard packaging, with the retailer simply having a unit of the item on display (secured in place for anti-shoplift reasons).

Stacy Witscher wrote:First, I'm really enjoying this thread. I'm probably not as good at reusing things as I should be, but stuff gives me anxiety.

Second, I think a living estate sale is an excellent idea. We don't do it that way in our family exactly, but we all purge and pass along things prior to our deaths. I don't want to leave that burden to my children. Fortunately, I'm in the process of selling my home and moving out of state, so I'm taking this time to divide up anything the kids want. My kids and my ex are all setting up house, so most everything is wanted, the rest gets donated. I dislike selling to the public. I would rather give it away.

I get frustrated with my kids who are not at the same level as me, but I try to remember that if I spend all my time annoyed with them over this stuff, I won't have time to enjoy them. Life is too short.

At least your family purges by passing it along. Before my mother died, her dementia for some reason inspired her to throw away (in the garbage) pretty much everything she owned -- including the family photo albums! I got frustrated with her a lot, because to some extent she did the Baby Boomer thing of having been a hippie in her younger days, but then swinging to the "square" side later. It made me wish I had known her before I was born. I'm just glad I salvaged the books I wanted when she gave up reading but had not yet purged.

But speaking of financial realities, there are cheap ways to cut down on plastic, too. Get a couple forks, spoons, butter knives from a thrift store, instead of plastic disposable ones. Or even if you get a plastic set free at the deli counter, reuse it. Maybe you get five or six uses out of it before it breaks -- that's still only 1/5 or 1/6 the waste you would have produced using a fresh set each time. I have been known to reuse paper cups several times, until they wear out; disposable plastic cups can usually be reused a number of times before they crack, too. In the Dominican Republic, it is an easy thing, when I need cutworm collars for my tomato plants, to pick up more than enough discarded plastic cups along the road.

Dan Boone wrote:
P.S.  I am eternally grateful that somebody here on Permies (I know longer remember who or in what thread) warned me about landscape fabrics, plastic carpet, plastic-weave dogfood bags, and all the other plastic woven textiles that often get used for mulch or other outdoor purposes but which eventually wind up disintegrating in the soil as horrible wads of plastic fibers.  I never made that mistake and don't have that problem anywhere on my property.

Oh man, I wish I'd seen them before I made the mistakes of  

(1) Smothering weeds with cardboard that still had tape on it. I'm still finding tape.
(2) Trying to smother 500+ sqft of bindweed with black plastic tarp. The rain pooled on top, the ducks swam in the puddles. The weight of it all drove the tarp down on top of the salmonberry that was growing there. The salmonberry grew up through the holes. The plastic broke down further in the sun. The whole area is littered with black plastic that crumbles when I try to pick it up, and I can't even get to it most of the year due to all the salmonberries. I polluted 500 sqft of prime growing area. I hate myself. I thought I could prevent the spread of the bindweed by tarping the area off for 5 years, the bindweed would be shaded out and cooked out, and I would be able to take the sheeting off easily and have a nice organic garden. Instead, I have impenitrable blackberries, salmonberries and red elderberry that I have to leave up because not all the bindweed died, and no way to really remove the plastic. It's a nightmare.

Because I am making the call that having the blue food grade plastic that the calf-feed cubes were distributed in on my property and near my tomato roots is putting less toxins into my life (and into the broader world) than buying truck-farmed tomatoes grown with pesticides half a continent away, which is the only other option I can afford.  And invariably someone will say "Why don't you just go to the farmer's market or buy organic?" as if I didn't (a) live in a food desert where every effort at functioning farmers markets fails and (b) could afford the gasoline to reach the kind of premium supermarkets where organic is available.

I feel the financial/privilage struggle, too. My husband, having always been poor (the kind of poor where he went hungry and his family got power shut off and learned to never answer the phone because it was probably a creditor) gets really ANGRY at "rich people" and is often talking about how "only rich people can afford to be healthy" and "that's only for rich people" "only rich people have time to have nice gardens because they can sit outside and weed instead of having to slave away at a job." There's a LOT of anger there. Having grown up working poor to upper middle class (my Dad worked at Boeing the whole time, so his wage increased), and I always had what I needed and learned that wants were wants, not needs.  In many ways, I was privilaged: I got to learn money managment skills, I had stability, I had support to go to college almost entirely debt free, I never had the emotional/physical stress of being hungry, I was surrounded by people who knew how to get a career (vs a community who believed there was no point in trying).

There's more to "privilage" than just money...but now I'm the one derailing a thread! Back on topic!

It's really hard to balance finances with being less-toxic/wasteful when there are kids involved. There's free/cheap toys everywhere that are EXACTLY what they want, and often really fantastic except that they are plastic. Like, I wanted to get my kids a marble run to teach my kids physices, as my son kept thinking things rolled up hill. On the one hand, you have this kind of marble run, costing over $100. That's generally the cost for for any of these types. Some are more.



Pretty cool looking, but not that many different types of ramps or anything. On the other hand, you have this one



It costs $14.99. It has more pieces, more ability to customize, more fun ramps and even a loop-the-loop. When I taught preschool, another teacher had one, and the kids LOVED it. There's no way I could spend over $100 on the toy...so I bought the $14 one. It's still one of their favorite toys. I love the thing, too. But, now we have a bin full of plastic, and the kids are absorbing toxins when they play with it, and I just want to scream.

I want my kids to have learning opportunities. I want them to be able to play with the FREE toys that we were given or that were mine when I was a child. But, they're plastic. But, wood/cotton/wool/metal toys are stinkin' expensive. And, they're often not nearly as cool as the ones in the store. A wooden car toy is not nearly as neat as a Hot Wheels, and the Hot Wheels car costs $1, and the wooden car $14.

And, sure, I could make my own...but there's a reason these toys are stinkin' expensive: they take a lot of time and expensive materials to make!

So I learned to make toys. For example, today my daughter wanted to pretend to cook hot dogs like Dada was, so I felted up a hot dog to put in her pan. I can make dragons and fairies, and people say I should charge a high price because they look nice...but I just don't know. There's so many kids out there who's parents wish they could buy them nice, non-toxic toys...and they can't. So they buy or give plastic ones to their kids. Even the "cloth" baby toys are almost always made out of plastic (polyester). It's terrifying how much plastic we have in our house. Plastic-based diaper covers are a lot easier to use and cheaper than wool ones...but now I have plastic diaper covers that have fallen apart.

And then there's snacks. When you're busy  with kids, it's really easy to give them--and yourself--packaged foods. I walk with my kids usually 1-2 hours per day. The love to walk, and they don't scream and fight when we're walking, and we get to build bonds with the neighbors...but it means that they're HUNGRY. And, so I often stick a pack of locally-made peperonii sticks in my pocket. We eat through a pack a day, And every day there's a new plastic wrapper in our trash. Ah! And, we like to eat yogurt. Sure, we can make our own (and we do), but it takes hours to heat up a gallon of milk and cool it...and that's hard to fit in with little ones. So we make special yogurt for my husband due to his diet, and I eat yogurt that I get on sale at the local Grocery Outlet. It's 79 cents for yogurt that is usually $3...but I'm stuck with a multitude of little yogurt containers. AH!

Jeffrey Carlson wrote:I would have went further, and replaced our tupperware, plastic wrap, food bags, toddler’s sippy cups, etc with non-plastic stuff. But there I would have been spending a lot, so have stalled on that. And after reading through this thread, I won’t just buy new replacements.

I've taken to adding all these things to my birthday/Christmas lists for my family. We all exchange lists, with the thought people don't have to use the list, but that it lets the other person pick what they like to give off of the list. So, I ask for silicone spatulas, and glass jars and canning lids and wooden/metal/cotton toys for the kids. Speaking of which these pots and pans were the BEST gift. They are DURABLE. I heat up food in them on the wood stove. I put snacks in them for the kids to eat outside. They can't break them. They're fun, and they double as dishes, and they're fun for bath/water play.  This Tea Set is also amazing. The kids can't break the cups. It's what I give them water in outside, and inside too, half the time.

Stacy Witscher wrote:Second, I think a living estate sale is an excellent idea. We don't do it that way in our family exactly, but we all purge and pass along things prior to our deaths. I don't want to leave that burden to my children. Fortunately, I'm in the process of selling my home and moving out of state, so I'm taking this time to divide up anything the kids want.  

We're going through this with my grandparents right now. They're 89 and 92, and want to move to an assisted living aprtment. So they're passing along most of they're stuff to they're kids and grandkids, from tools to blueberry bushes. I'm heartbroken and grateful all at the same time. I'm gonna go cry now...

Jason Hernandez - I'm so sorry that your mother did that. My grandmother did the same thing with the family photo albums, but years before her dementia set in. She got despondent one night and threw out all of my mothers childhood photos, shortly thereafter my mother moved her out here with us in California.

Nicole - I know that it can be painful to go threw all this stuff. I think that's why so many people just don't do it. But I think it's good, good to feel and reminisce with the ones we love before they are gone. And anything the kids can use means less stuff they have to buy.

I don't want to derail the whole post, but I suspect a lot of the companies that practice the policy of matching each sale with a donation in kind, are run by people who had the same dilemma that you're struggling with, Bombas socks, for instance. Maybe something in that line would be a workable solution for both selling your dragons and making these high quality toys available for less affluent households.

As the OP, I have NO problems with this thread getting derailed good places!! Feel free! With my blessings :)

I see nothing in this I wish wasn't there. This is the sort of discussion I was hoping to start!

Nicole: There are lots of stainless steel things at restaurant supply places, and Indian grocery stores, sometimes oriental import shops in general. The lower end ones are cheaper and WAY more interesting, places like World Market, I won't even walk into. If you have any in your area, check them. Those little sets you have are neat, but look expensive. I have little stainless things I guarantee I paid MUCH MUCH less for.

One of the things I really like about this forum is how much we learn from each other, whether its success, experience or even from problems.

Not having kids, I didnt pay much attention to what toys are made from.  Which doesnt make sense since I avoid plastic where I can in my own life.  The one thing I did notice was the sheer number of toys the kids in my life have. Partly since my sister mentioned how many junky toys they get from grandparents at any and every occasion.  So before learning about the value of permaculture, we had gotten away from giving stuff and doing stuff with them instead.  Great report card, let's go fishing. Simplifies their lives and as a bonus gives parents some time of their own.  I appreciate reading Nicole's perspective of toys.

Nicole, I understand how difficult it can be when parents and grandparents downsize.  Be very glad they are giving you this gift. When my mom was sick, she wanted to let go of nothing and she had kept a ton of stuff of my grandmothers.  After she died, dad wanted to keep everything.  Then his parkinsons took a massive downturn and the house and contents had to be disposed of. It took my sister and I a couple years to get through it all and we both still have some bins of stuff stored to finish going through.  There were items we had no idea what they were or what the attachment was.  There are things and pictures we wish we had the stories behind. Besides the time involved, there was a huge amount of things that went to waste. Not saying Goodwill was a waste, but I mean that things were saved "for special" and never used.  Try to write down or record the stories behind your grandparents pictures and gifts if there are any.

Dan Boone wrote:I am still waiting for a truckload of glass bricks to fall into my lap!  I live in bad hailstorm country; I am never going to get a decent greenhouse unless I can engineer it to withstand some pretty serious severe weather.  And with new glass brick going for eight bucks a brick, it's out of my league.  But I'm hoping for the right deal on a bunch of used/demolition/cruddy ones...

Well, wow, it's been a while since 2018 when I wrote this, hasn't it?

I walked up on a garage sale today and sitting on a table full  of junk was a single glass brick, with a sign: "Big pile, $25".

I asked the lady "How big of a pile are we talking?" Remember, in my area $25 would buy you 3-5 bricks, max. She took me around the corner of her house and sure enough, stacked against her chain link fence was a "big pile" of decent bricks, with a few cracks and chips and dinged corners but very useable.  Long story short, I got the first 126 bricks for my tornado/hail/derecho resistant greenhouse for less than twenty cents a brick, and they are stacked nicely in my yard.

I knew it would happen someday.  The garage sales always fill my shopping list, but sometimes it takes years.

I think I will need at least one more score like this to actually start building, but this is enough that I can at least start *designing* without it being a complete fantasy undertaking.  It's a lot more fun to think about what to build when you've got at least some of the materials sitting in a pile waiting.

Great score Dan!  I never thought of using those glass bricks in a greenhouse.

I'd love to have an actual glass greenhouse but will be constructing one out of greenhouse plastic, PVC and wood this fall and hope by the time it reaches the end of its life, I'll be able to afford something more substantial.  My rationale is that I'll have a few years of growing under cover under my belt and will have a better idea of what size I'll need for growing for my family and to sell also.  

On the topic of kids toys, I became a mother late in life and have a child with some learning delays.  95% of her toys are thrifted or yard sale finds and the ones we buy new are either wooden puzzles or a specific stuffed animal she likes.  Yes the majority are plastic but buy buying them used and either selling or donating them when she's through with them keeps them in circulation and helps out another family who can't afford everything shiny and new either.  

Nicole Alderman wrote:
I feel the financial/privilage struggle, too. My husband, having always been poor (the kind of poor where he went hungry and his family got power shut off and learned to never answer the phone because it was probably a creditor) gets really ANGRY at "rich people" and is often talking about how "only rich people can afford to be healthy" and "that's only for rich people" "only rich people have time to have nice gardens because they can sit outside and weed instead of having to slave away at a job." There's a LOT of anger there. Having grown up working poor to upper middle class (my Dad worked at Boeing the whole time, so his wage increased), and I always had what I needed and learned that wants were wants, not needs.  In many ways, I was privilaged: I got to learn money managment skills, I had stability, I had support to go to college almost entirely debt free, I never had the emotional/physical stress of being hungry, I was surrounded by people who knew how to get a career (vs a community who believed there was no point in trying).

Funny. I have exactly the opposite belief. Neither side of my family had money. On one side were poor, hardy & fiercely independent Appalachians and on the other, dirt poor folks from the Piedmont. But if the poor didn't hunt, garden and forage, they didn't eat! I don't see how working all the more to put food on the table is privileged or only for rich people. The blackberries we picked in the summer was the jam we had with biscuits in the winter. Fall was hog killing season. I never had a store bought turkey until I was 13 and I didn't understand that taste. Grandpa always hunted the turkeys we ate. Gardening and putting up food helped everyone get through the winter. We collected a year's worth of black walnuts in 4-6 weeks. We fished year-round. Pretty much everyone had to endure hard, low wage jobs. The stories they would tell about coal mines were eyebrow-raising. So I would throw out there that it is the height of resourcefulness when the poor actively garden, forage, & hunt. I grew up breaking down the year by knowing when we were going to forage what, harvests, and hunting/fishing. None of it was by those who instead of doing whatever it took to try to make a little money, sat around and enjoyed watching flowers grow. It was all part of the struggle. I do agree with another poster who said the term privilege was batted around far too casually these days.

echo minarosa wrote:

Nicole Alderman wrote:
I feel the financial/privilage struggle, too. My husband, having always been poor (the kind of poor where he went hungry and his family got power shut off and learned to never answer the phone because it was probably a creditor) gets really ANGRY at "rich people" and is often talking about how "only rich people can afford to be healthy" and "that's only for rich people" "only rich people have time to have nice gardens because they can sit outside and weed instead of having to slave away at a job." There's a LOT of anger there.

Funny. I have exactly the opposite belief. Neither side of my family had money. On one side were poor, hardy & fiercely independent Appalachians and on the other, dirt poor folks from the Piedmont. But if the poor didn't hunt, garden and forage, they didn't eat! I don't see how working all the more to put food on the table is privileged or only for rich people. The blackberries we picked in the summer was the jam we had with biscuits in the winter. Fall was hog killing season. I never had a store bought turkey until I was 13 and I didn't understand that taste. Grandpa always hunted the turkeys we ate. Gardening and putting up food helped everyone get through the winter. We collected a year's worth of black walnuts in 4-6 weeks. We fished year-round. Pretty much everyone had to endure hard, low wage jobs. The stories they would tell about coal mines were eyebrow-raising. So I would throw out there that it is the height of resourcefulness when the poor actively garden, forage, & hunt. I grew up breaking down the year by knowing when we were going to forage what, harvests, and hunting/fishing. None of it was by those who instead of doing whatever it took to try to make a little money, sat around and enjoyed watching flowers grow. It was all part of the struggle. I do agree with another poster who said the term privilege was batted around far too casually these days.

I wonder if part of the difference is rural poor vs urban poor. My husband and both his parents were urban poor, growing up in the city, moving from rental to rental constantly. My husband never lived anywhere longer than a year--no time to put down roots or build a community. In contrast, neither of my parents' parents were rich--but they were rural.  My Grandparents were likely considered poor from the stories told. But, they had resources in the land to use: hunting, gardening, fishing, farming, tools, etc. If you live on land, you can create tools from wood on your property, grow things on your property, forage in the nearby "unowned" wildlands, etc. And if you don't do those things, you don't eat--just like you said, Echo.

I think urban poor feel like they have no resources of their own. They don't own their land, or even home. To get things, they have to scavenge from other people's toss-offs (dumpster diving), or guerrilla garden, accept charity, or spend their day laboring for others (often without earning enough to pay all their bills). I think being dependent on others for shelter, food, items, etc, lends itself more easily to feelings of depression. There's not as much to take pride in, or to claim ownership of, or to feel in control of.

When I look at the PEP program, this difference really shows up. A lot of the activities require land: places to forage, large areas for gardening, places to harvest wood to create tools, etc. Someone who is urban has to ask to get access for all of those things. It's an additional barrier that rural people don't have. The PEA program attempts to make the skill-building accessible for everyone, even those in apartments. But, you still have to purchase or scavenge or be gifted stuff that those on land could potentially access for free.

Having lived in a major metropolitan area all my life, and now having moved to a rural location, I would agree with Nicole. It's vastly different.
Much of my family is/was upper middle class but that support can be taken away in an instant. I was thrown out of the house at 17, pregnant and alone, lived on the streets for a while. It definitely changes you. I have since been brought back into the fold, but you never forget.

Being poor in the city takes different strategies but it all still takes time. Personally I find side hustles to be best, on the books you have no income, but they are needed to survive. In the US, if you can't make enough, you are better off making nothing.

My father, who is losing his memory, recently started recounting a story that was new to me.
He talked about what happened when his family moved from the projects to their own home.
Soon after they arrived his father had him and his older brothers turn over the entire yard.
The garden went in, and his parents changed.
They still worked long hard jobs, but now they came home and went out among the plants, instead of collaping a in a chair.
They all ate better but his parents also felt better, and that affected the entire family.

He tells me about this when I bring him vegetables and berries from my yardens.
We talk about how gardening makes me feel and he tells me about how it affected him.
He loves vegetables,  except for greenbeans, which he sometimes ate 3 times a day.

The Piedmont side of the family isn't rural...well...a handful are/were. The rest lived in towns both small and large. In town, many people kept chickens. My grandfather moved frequently (same rental situations you mentioned). I can't remember all the low wage jobs he had but when I was little I remember helping him sort and count change left or having been stuck in washers and dryers at the laundromat he worked at. Windfall!  ;)

The urban/suburban lifestyle still allows for foraging. Most of my family has done it. Sometimes it's even preferable because there are fewer people doing it. Back then, no one in my family had bicycles. You hauled home your finds in wagons, on your back, whatever. Most people approached about the removal of black walnuts jumped at the chance to have them removed. I'm solidly urban and see vacant lots used for crops, also disturbed stream edges, and rights of way. I see fruit and nut trees not used by ANYONE though.All one needs do is show up and gather--easiest foraging there is. But now there are free meal options all over and most foraging is no more.

All that said, pride seems to be hit or miss. If I use garbage as an example, there are places in the poorest parts of town that are spotless, and places in the richest part of town that are dumps. Even within neighborhoods it's hit or miss. Some poor neighborhoods...entire blocks are trash heaps. Others are where I see people take control of the situation and clean up far beyond their own homes. It's a choice to live in crap. I clean up my block several times a week. It does chap my tail to have people in the worst parts, and they're the frequent dumpers, just watch as they sit on stoops and complain about their surroundings (true story and regular occurrence). If 10% of them stepped up, it would always be spotless. One woman in a motorized wheelchair the next block over carries a reach extender for picking up garbage as she travels down the sidewalk. I don't want to sound like this is victim-blaming but I also don't want to obscure personal choices either. And I'm definitely not ascribing my observations to your husband's situation. Everyone's paths are different as are the walking hazards. I just feel like there is too much overgeneralizing and too much resentment of "others".

On a similar note, I overheard someone say they would like to start a garden but they didn't have any money and didn't think it was anything they could ever afford. I waited until the guy was alone and plugged him in to resources as well as let him know what could be scrounged for free. I met him later to give him a mess of seeds and plants. He seemed thrilled. Pretty sure I was more thrilled than he was.