Paul Wheaton's hugelkultur article thread

Westley Wu wrote:Paul, first of all thank you for all your Hugelkultur content on richsoil.com and here on permies!  I’ve been doing weeks of reading to build our garden here in Northern California.  In short I’ve spent the weekends this summer building a 25ft. long terraced / raised bed veggie garden (to defend against the multitude of rodents everywhere around us) along the contour of a pretty steep slope.  Now it’s time to fill it Hugelkultur style and I’m running into issues - can you help?

We live right in the redwood forest, which is beautiful but all the recommended wood for Hugelkultur are in scarce supply naturally for acres in each direction.  And the local firewood companies only sell Oak, Almond, Walnut, and Eucalyptus.  The same goes for the litter/branches/twigs layer - most tree company cuttings are California Pepperwood, Oak, Bay Laurel, or some sort of coniferous tree.  All of the above are highly allelopathic, which is the challenge I’m facing.

So far I’ve managed to find a few dead Maple limbs but that’s all, and logs on the forest floor that are well decomposed so I collected them thinking they’d be OK, I think most of them are Oak.  I’ve resorted to putting freshly felled Oak logs on the bottom, then the decomposing maple and oak logs.  Am wondering if that will produce fertile soil for vegetables?  or will the Oak stunt all our plant growth?  And what should I use for litter?  I have a truckload of woodchips from a local tree company that’s been decomposing for 1-2 years, it was “green” (with leaves) which they said was a mix of oak and other trees.  Nothing grows out of the pile though...but I do see strands of white fungus mycelium growing to a depth of ~6” and the twigs deep down have moisture and easily break in my hands vs. “snapping” or being sharp like fresh woodchips.  Would this be a good next layer for the Hugel bed?

Or can I use the overly abundant redwood litter?  We have a 2 year old compost pile (about a cubic yard) but the brown matter has largely been redwood litter (we were not aware of allelopathy until this summer, and besides we don’t have any other brown matter around).  Is it a good idea to add this compost on top of the wood and litter layers?  I would remediate 50/50 w the clay soil I dug up from the postholes and then use purchased topsoil.

Would greatly appreciate your expert thoughts and ideas!  Anyone else who’s on the forum, we’d also welcome your feedback!

Westley, I think that your compost would be a great addition (there must be lots of redwood and evergreen digesting microbes), along with any local soil (no matter how clayey. In my experience in the land of redwoods the speed of arriving at good veggie soil is closely tied to the ammount of imported hummus and looser topsoil. What you have going on sounds like it will be working great after a few years of trying and irrigating. Compost and manure will help. I would love to see pictures over the next few seasons, good luck!

allelopathy is a huge problem while the plant is alive.   I am not sure how much of a problem it is after the plant has died.   I think it depends greatly on the type of allelopathy and a greater picture of the biological gobbledygook of the plant.  Unfortunately, the desire for hugelkultur is relatively new, so there are some bits and bobs we have not yet figured out.

But!  The good news is:  for all of these species, you will notice that they are not piled up 200 feet tall all over the place.   So somehow they are rotting!   And since juglones is not on the periodic table of the elements, there is a good chance that it will break down when exposed to the right fungi and/or bacteria.  

Paul and Stephen, THANK YOU!!!  🙏🏻💜💕

Will give it a go.  Gonna layer our rotting woodchips followed by our compost mixed 50/50 w the clay soil, and finally topsoil.  Will post the results.  Thank you again.

OK, after all this excited commentary I have a question. Please let me know if this needs its own thread.

I tried hugelkultur at one point, on a very small scale. I dug down about a foot, layered small logs with brush and leaves, and covered it over with soil. I kept it well watered all summer (or so I thought) but when I went back and dug into it a year or so later there was no sign of rot or decomposition. Everything was just as it was when I buried it except that the logs were covered with fungus hyphae. No fruiting bodies, but the hyphae, and the soil around the logs was bone dry. The logs had moisture in them, but weren't giving anything back. It appears that they were just sucking in all the moisture they got and holding it.

I concluded that this works in areas where there is a great deal of water. Did I do something wrong, or am I right in determining that this isn't a good option for an arid climate? Most of the people I know who do hugelkultur in this area actually have sprinklers or drip lines on the mounds, which I think negates the purpose.

Lauren, my Hügelbeets will be of an age comparable to yours, and although I saw many good effects, I also an increased drought problem on the Hügels. Even one that had sank quite low became bone dry.

Main advantages to my Hügelbeets, as I see them:
• bringing more oxygen in my compacted clay soil, so plant's roots can develop better;
• root weeds become extractable, as they have a less strong foothold in the loose material that makes up a Hügelbeet;
• a less suitable environment for those nasty deep rooted weeds to develop in the first place;
• the ability to absorb excess water during wet periods;
• my clay soil gradually becomes more loose and workable;
• increase of soil life - breaking down organic matter and increasing soil fertility;
• it's a great way to deal with of lying around wood and organic waste.

My downsides:
• steep sides - soil comes tumbling down anytime you're doing something;
• it's a bit hard to predict how much they'll sink in over time, and re-building has consequences for perennials already there;
• increased drought during dry periods.

The drought problem should be a temporary one. I'm guessing my Hügelbeets are still too airy on the inside. I didn't pack them tightly, there will be huge gaps inside which won't hold on to water. I'm hoping, as the beds sink in and the organic matter continues to decompose, the ability to hold on to water and keep it available for plants increases.
Also some young fruit trees and bushes I planted should provide some shade over time.

I'm puzzled about the amount of stories that say; 'Look, I built a Hügel, and now my watering can is in retirement.' Your experience doesn't surprise me at all, Lauren. All this dryness won't help the Hügel breaking down quickly. Assuming you'll continue working with it, try to keep it tight on the inside and grow broad-leaved things on top if you can, like pumpkins and rhubarb, of which the leaves will provide shade.  

Lauren Ritz wrote:
Did I do something wrong, or am I right in determining that this isn't a good option for an arid climate?

My experience with hugelkultur in a dry environment has been that it does not work on a small scale.  I made a few small mounds, which dried out.  My conclusion, based on the success demonstrated at Wheaton Labs, is that the mounds need to be very large - much larger than most people could build without earth-moving equipment.  I have had much better success with buried wood beds, which, while they did not eliminate the need for irrigation, significantly reduced it.  https://permies.com/t/52077/Buried-Wood-Beds

I agree with you Tyler. We must bear in mind that hugelkulturs were evolved in a very different climate and require some adaptation to succeed in other situations. I too have found that sunken hugels (I understand that the technical term is grubel kultur but am pretty sure that nobody would understand what I meant) are much more successful.  Here we can go for six months without meaningful rain in summer. So I dig knee deep trenches, fill them with wood appropriately layered, and plant nitrogen fixing cover crops for the first year in time to catch the winter rains. It works beautifully and reduces irrigation for vegetables from once a week to once a month. My old roses survived the drought last year in this way without a drop of irrigation and this in their first summer before they could be thought to have established themselves.

I notice that fruit trees will survive a drought in a buried wood bed but if you want them to bear well they should also have at least a monthly irrigation in a dry climate.

My understanding (maybe wrong) is that they originally developed in areas with excessive groundwater (not to mention excess wood), as a sort of raised garden to keep the roots out of the muck.

For full size (7 feet tall) hugelkultur....

You will need to irrigate like you normally do the first year.  Irrigate less the second year, and no irrigation is needed the third year.

So for things that grow on the top of the Hugel is it ok to just climb to the top and pick them?  Or in the case of something like sunchokes just climb up, turn the soil to get the tubers then pat it back into place?  Obviously, if i have one central path up to minimize trampling might be better or some form of scaffolding?

Jonathan Ward wrote:So for things that grow on the top of the Hugel is it ok to just climb to the top and pick them?  Or in the case of something like sunchokes just climb up, turn the soil to get the tubers then pat it back into place?  Obviously, if i have one central path up to minimize trampling might be better or some form of scaffolding?

If your hugelkultur is built to be 7 feet tall, after one year it will probably be six feet tall and all the stuff at the top will be pretty easy to reach while standing on the ground.

“Ziplining” two cubic yards of compost down to the hugel.  It’s 80 5 gallon buckets, and would’ve been more than climbing up and down the old world trade ctr, carrying heavy buckets.  So I built this rig, had to keep the line high enough to stay above the ground all the way down, w the weight of four buckets at a time.  You can see 3 green and orange buckets down at bottom, I’m sending the fourth here.  This might come in handy for moving other objects in the future so I think I’ll keep it.  Have three wine barrels I got for rainwater storage that need to go down there.

Just wanted to share my experience with hugelkultur.

Ligustrum lucidum (tree privet) has been deemed one of the worst economic pests in the world. The seeds are easily dispersed by birds, the plants are hardy and fast growing, it will germinate in shade and sun, and on rich and poor soils. It's rapid growth in disturbed areas sees it close out the canopy taking light from competition and destroying entire ecosystems around the globe. Methods to control this tree include dynamite, roundup, diesel and fire, extensive digging, and more. All of these typically fail and the privet comes back from shoot growth off submerged roots to create a thicket that is far harder to remove.

I have killed and successfully converted several large L. lucidum specimens to hugelkultur beds, and am in the process of killing more. I use no poisons, no explosives, and no scorched earth.

Cut your privet tree so that 1 foot of it is protruding from the ground. Wait a couple of months and new shoots form. Remove them. Repeat. Two years later the tree is dead. If you leave nothing protruding the tree will grow off the root system and create a far worse problem. Landscaping practise is to level the stumps, this is problematic. If you are steward of a property, you should be present. removing shoots takes minutes per tree total over the two years period, for total success. Upon cutting the privet down immediately plant with trees you'd prefer. Let the new plants feed off and compete with the privet's dying root systems.

The cut down materials are used for hugelkultur. I called them 'tree graves' but as you now have an official term for this, I cede the name. I lay these out at the base of the original tree as I want visitors to see the dead privet stump besides the prolific abundance growing out of the beds they created.

I believe most woody weed pests can be killed using the methods as described above. If you are not present on the land, leave it alone till you are ready to take responsibility for it. A privet forest is better than scorched earth.

In my yard I already had 8 trees cut down with 2 more to come down.   I had multiple ~5 black walnuts on 3 sides of property S, E, and W.  I set up my garden in the N ~away from the house.  I know I can plant beans where the black walnut was, but not peas or nightshades.  I know what I can and cannot plant in the walnut zone pretty much.  Generally trying to stay away from it.   I cannot say I am using hugelkultur since I have no soil on top of all this wood.

Nice idea, dig down a foot into soil, hold this soil, then lay down the wood, then pile soil on wood.  I was burning wood/paper 4 days in this week. :(  Maybe I can go to work start digging then dump all the wood chips in the hole and cover with the soil.

paul wheaton wrote:Over the last five years this seems to be the thing that I am having the hardest time describing to people.  

Please build your hugelkultur beds in layers.  Some wood, then some soil, then some wood, then some soil, etc.  

Please do no make a pile of wood and then heap dirt on top of that.

If I might be so bold, possibly someone could change the pictures in the Richsoil article?  That is where I first learned about hugelkultur, and the pictures there on how to build them look to me exactly like the pictures here that show how not to build them.  That may be contributing to the confusion.

As promised, sharing photos of the completed Hugel, just in time for the rainy season.  Hoping to plant fruit trees on the slope above, but worries the gophers will kill them.  Next up is the deer fence.

Westley Wu wrote:As promised, sharing photos of the completed Hugel, just in time for the rainy season.  Hoping to plant fruit trees on the slope above, but worries the gophers will kill them.  Next up is the deer fence.

Good Luck, It looks like a severe slope.  

You maybe could have put metal mesh at bottoms of beds for gophers.  

Yikes you would have to back up, like I did for planting garlic a bit too deep.

Thank you Mike, yes I did put 1/4" mesh at the bottom (pic), but it was the bane of my existence.  Doing the "flashing" at each corner and edge was not easy if one doesn't want to leave gaps and holes that could grow over time, esp. w the weight of logs and dirt going in.  Laying it down on the irregular slope and bare earth was a problem.  If I had to do it again, I would construct a flat floor of some sort to fasten the mesh to, but the initial idea was to allow bypass between the earth and the soil in the box for worms, moisture, etc.  Maybe a hybrid with wooden slats.

What did you mean by backing up after planting garlic too deep?

Westley Wu wrote:Thank you Mike

What did you mean by backing up after planting garlic too deep?

I had them about 6-8 inches down.  But I dug them up, and planted about 3-4 inches, saw about 33% put up shoots, until I covered them with chopped leaves.   I also accidentally stepped on the garlic bed with one foot print.

Tyler Ludens wrote:  I have had much better success with buried wood beds, which, while they did not eliminate the need for irrigation, significantly reduced it.

This makes more sense to me from what I've read and experienced with living in Western Colorado's semi-arid climate. I apologize that I forget the source I read this from, but I have seen some indigenous growing methods for arid climates that sink the growing beds in the ground instead of raising them. As others have said any small raised area will quickly be dried out by the hot summer winds and sunshine, while a properly protected depression (say by a small berm planted with more drought-tolerate species on the windward side) will create a more temperate microclimate.

Question- If a hügelkultur is assemble adjacent to a house foundation, do you think it would reduce moisture getting into the basement.  In my daughters house we've made internal adjustments to reduce excess moisture, but I wonder if this would help too.  Then my next question, would it encourage mice and insects to enter the home more than average?  The place I was thinking to do it is about 4 feet by 10 feet against her house.  I thought to dig down a foot and then raise it 3 feet above ground level, but but it would be more triangular than round since it is against the foundation.

I agree Paul, there are many benefits to gardening with raised beds. The idea of using extra or left over wood, branches and logs and turning them into something useful is a great one. I find that many people do in fact just throw it all away. There are many awesome ideas to consider when you have extra pieces of wood. I would check on pinterest.

Hi! I’m not sure if I should post about my project here or start a new thread in Hugelkultur.

I am starting this year to work on a few projects on an approx. 1 acre suburban property in Olympia, WA, zone 8. Rainy most of the year and increasingly dry summers. This year’s goals include building a compost bin and starting to compost, testing and improving the soil, and just generally observing the site.

However we have an old rotting maple tree and the tree expert said it needs to come down, which will happen in about 3 or 4 weeks. I would like to try to do a Hugelkultur here (picture attached) with that wood. It doesn't have to be perfect, everything is an experiment at this point. I have been reading threads and trying to get ideas (I haven’t read every page on this thread yet.)

I don’t want it to be tall—I’m thinking four feet and then I know it will shrink. I saw Paul’s post about layering wood-soil-wood-soil etc, not just pouring soil over a pile of wood. I guess doing a sunken Hugel allows the wood to collect more moisture and wick it upwards, right? Does digging 2 feet below ground level sound about right?

I have read about rodent problems when the hugel is too dry? Or will there be rodents regardless?

I understand 'no watering' is an ideal and 'less watering' is usually the reality? Or less watering at the beginning and no watering after 2 or 3 years if you do it right?

Is layering with soil and the sod on that old pile going to be enough? It’s not the season for grass clippings, what else can I use? I can get free horse manure nearby.

Is this the right time of year to do it so it can soak in the rains before summer?

I need to see what’s actually under that mound and do some soil tests. I don’t know what that pile was. It might have been bark mulch. Since the soil is likely not good, and compost won’t be ready til next year, I guess I might need to add some stuff. The local food coop carries worm castings, remineralizing soil booster, and some kind of biodynamic compost. Any pointers?

I’d like to grow annuals: cucumber, watermelon, and summer squash. And some nitrogen fixers. Lupin because I already have seeds, and whatever else (I'll look at good companion plants for these veggies). None of the nitrogen fixing berry shrubs are ones I’m familiar with so I don’t know about planting things I’m not sure I’m going to like and I don't want to make this a permanent fixture until I know it will produce good results.

Am I missing anything? What can go wrong? I would appreciate any advice from people that have tried hugelkultur in my growing zone. Thanks very much for reading.
Margaret

In the VA piedmont, we removed the wood left over from logging oak, from what is now a growing area, to a long mound intending a hügel. But we haven't the soil, other than red clay, or the time to haul that much of it and so the long mound of wood remained and then in the next year sprouted blackberries nearly everywhere on the mound. We continue to throw branches onto the mound, and when available extra red clay, as well as organic matter, mostly the large bushy weeds.

I think this hügel will go through succession, as we add soil and biomass, and possibly the seeds, roots, etc., of useful plants, though it is and will remain for some time more wood than soil. So far it's proven to be a good producer of blackberries... we'll see what happens in the future.

Chris McClellan directed me to this image today and asked me "how do you clean the glass?"  And I got the impression that it was a short term display, so I think that is not a problem.   But if was a long term display, then I think it is still not a problem.   Don't you want to see all the life happening to the wood?   So I'm thinking it is wise to first have the problem and then decide what to do.

But this brings up another point.   There is a problem with this display and I think it is my fault.  Because of my article.  

Many years ago I showed Sepp Holzer my article and he said "too much wood!" and I agree with him.   Recently we've been working on a book and we are talking about hugelkultur - and there are new images and we don't show so much wood.  

The moral of the story is that in this image there is too much wood.   There needs to be more soil!  And I suspect that this is my fault!

Plus - is that air between the wood?  There should not be air between the wood - it should all be soil.  I've seen people doing that too - where they make a pile of wood and then put soil on that.  There should be heaps of soil on wood contact.

Dc Brown wrote:Cut your privet tree so that 1 foot of it is protruding from the ground. Wait a couple of months and new shoots form. Remove them. Repeat. Two years later the tree is dead. If you leave nothing protruding the tree will grow off the root system and create a far worse problem. Landscaping practise is to level the stumps, this is problematic.

Thanks for this good news. I have been leaving a foot protruding as a marker, because I thought I would need to come back sometime and dig up the roots. Now I will just snip the new growth.

One thing I would add for newly awakened privetphobes: If you do nothing else, go after the trees that are producing berries.

Hello Permies!  I'm new here having spent the last few days reading this fascinating informative thread...WOW and thank you!!!  I'm brand new to permaculture but a long time home gardener.  This winter I listened to a Paul Wheaton podcast as I was interested in learning more about permaculture and am proud to declare myself as a new Hugelkultur Experimenter...WOOT!  My husband thinks I'm nuts but I have faith that, given time to see what our experiment does, he'll be nuts too :-)  I'm 100 miles north of Paul Wheaton in NW Montana and excited to build a food forest adjacent our newly constructed home using two techniques: Hugelkultur and traditional raised box beds.  So this is a great opportunity to see which outperforms the other.

We're constructing the Hugelkultur now.  With our Kubota tractor we dug a 60' long 5' wide trench averaging 18" deep along our north fence line.  The soil here is 90% sand with good potassium and phosphorus but no N.  Fortunately we have composted horse manure rich in N but deficient in phosphorus so a mix of the two should help balance nutrients and to add organic matter for the soil babies.  We laid a layer of dead birch in the bottom of the trench, added sandy dirt, and washed the dirt in for good contact with the wood.  This first layer is still below ground level so I asked hubby to add more birch trunks (we have lots of birch that are dying back at the tops and too near the house for comfort) to fill it in more, along with branches and sticks.  His response: By the time we add 2 feet of horse manure/straw and compost to it, the mound will be 6 feet tall.  I smiled and said YES!  

He brought up a good point though.  How do we keep the soil/compost from falling off the sides?  I'm thinking we need a cover crop ASAP but our average frost free date is May 13th (.  Should we a) plant buckwheat or clover on it now then plant our veg/flower seeds  later in May or b) just go ahead and plant the veg/flower seeds now?  We're putting uncomposted manure/hay in the core of the bed and topping with a foot of layered compost & sand so perhaps the heat generated from that will keep everything warm enough to germinate seeds earlier than what we're used to?    

Planning on planting the hugelbed as follows (but please let me know if there are better ideas or ones I've missed):
Top of the bed:  asparagus, strawberries, squash, cucumbers, flowers, beans
Mid-bed (south facing): tomatoes, peas, beans, herbs, flowers, spinach/lettuce, 2 hazelnuts (these are good to zone 5 so am giving them a windbreak with the hugel and adding some large rocks nearby to absorb heat)
Mid-bed (north facing):  spinach/lettuce, brassicas, elderberry
Bottom of the bed (south): onions. beets, current, flowers
bottom of the bed (north):  annual sunflowers, other??

We plan to mulch the top with wood chips and the sides with straw too, once we get the plants/seeds in.

So my main question is:  early cover crop (clover / buckwheat) or go ahead and plant now?   Am concerned the clover/buckwheat will be invasive and choke out everything else later on?  Thanks in advance for your advice!

paul wheaton wrote:Plus - is that air between the wood?  There should not be air between the wood - it should all be soil.  I've seen people doing that too - where they make a pile of wood and then put soil on that.  There should be heaps of soil on wood contact.

We just started building our first HK and I wasn't really clear on this point.  Thank you Paul!  

To get good soil/wood contact at the base of the bed, we layered excavated sandy soil on top of the birch base logs and watered it in really well to fill in the gaps then let it all soak in overnight.  The logs and limbs are solidly imbedded in soil (yay!).  Today we stuffed branches and old corn stalks into the remaining gaps, topped it with fresh horse manure and hay and tromped it all down into the remaining nooks & crannies around the base logs.  This added some lovely worms to the bed too.  Nearby we dug a separate trench for raspberries and dumped that soil on top of the HK manure and BONUS!!! found a thick layer of mycellium which I spread over the HK bed and saved a bucket full to later innoculate the outer layers of the HK. The HK is now at ground level. Next steps are to lay more birch logs and top those with layers of composted horse manure and native sandy soil as thick as we can get it (fortunate to have a lot with our 5 horses).  Hubby is resistent to building the bed more than 4 feet above ground (concerned it may encroach on the  nearby fence as soil washes down) so we will make do with a constructed height of 6' (2' below ground, 4' above) and see how it goes.    

Lots of growies right away helps to hold the soil upright.  

Also, longer logs and branches on the inside helps.  

Also, making those longer logs and branches on the inside go side-to-side sometimes (not always just lengthwise) helps.  

This video does a great job of explaining "angle of repose" and how to counter it



The reinforcement material in our case is the wood.

paul wheaton wrote:Lots of growies right away helps to hold the soil upright.  

Also, longer logs and branches on the inside helps.  

Also, making those longer logs and branches on the inside go side-to-side sometimes (not always just lengthwise) helps.  

This video does a great job of explaining "angle of repose" and how to counter it

The reinforcement material in our case is the wood.

Thank you for sharing this, plant roots and other layers add strength also I figure!

Wow, this thread has almost one million views!

harvesting a few potatoes