alternatives to buried hardware cloth for digging predators

Hello permies! We definitely have coyotes and foxes around these parts and want to keep our yet unborn chickens safe from them. It seems like every solution I've seen either involves pouring massive amounts of concrete or burying hardware cloth in soil. The first solution seems very permanent, which I sort of like, but I also like the idea of not needing a jackhammer if I ever wanted to repurpose the space. I also generally like pouring less concrete and using materials that are already around.

Burying hardware cloth seems a common answer as well, but I imagine in a few decades there would be very little left of this material. I also feel the pain of a future land steward cursing my name on his or her way to get a tetanus shot. This has led me to consider an alternative.

What if the hardware cloth was only buried very shallow in a trench with rubble?(chunks of rock, brick and concrete around 4 inches across) This trench would drain, increasing the life of the metal, and any digging below might be stopped by the large rocks if they were packed densely enough.(see option 1)

Another higher security alternative might involve creating a solid lay of paver blocks on their side held in place with rubble. I could even fasten the hardware cloth above ground with concrete fasteners and washers.(see option 2)

Either way there would be less chance of lead in the soil, and if I ever changed my mind I could pry the rocks out with a shovel. Does anyone have any experience with predators that might inform this sort of approach? Do you think the first option would be sufficient to deter a coyote or fox?

That would be almost as difficult to remove later as poured concrete.  The only aspect you'd save would be the jackhammer or explosives.  You won't even save any effort on the digging and the installation vs concrete.

The buried hardware cloth is so popular because it works, it's cheap, and it can be removed fairly easily if necessary.  The downside is it doesn't last very long.  Hardware cloth is much more durable than chicken wire, but it won't last "decades".  Years, sure.  But even 1 decade is probably optimistic, unless you have very well drained soils and/or a very dry climate.

If you don't want to do that I'd recommend a hot wire 6" (and maybe also at 18") above ground level.  Any predator that wants to dig under your fence is likely to get shocked and won't want to come near your fence.  Weed suppression is going to be critical to success for that, but for canid type predators it's highly effective.  Lower ground clearance predators like weasels and minks may or may not be deterred.  Rats probably won't be deterred.  But opossums and raccoons probably will be.  

Thank you Andrew. I agree this would be pretty difficult to remove and install. I suppose my main reason for considering this option is the use of materials I already have laying around rather than pouring new concrete.

Yes hardware cloth seems pretty temporary to me, and though I do like to consider end of life scenarios with anything I build, this chicken setup is meant to stay in place for the rest of my life as far as I can forsee.

I also wonder about large chunks of salvaged concrete slab(2 feet wide) or flagstones going out rather than down. Could a fox find the edge of this and dig underneath in a way that would be easier to figure out than buried hardware cloth with hidden edges? Is there any reason out or down is better, with rocks or hardware cloth?

Out is what's usually used with hardware cloth.  Partly because you don't have to dig much or even at all.  You can lay it out, bend it so it can be attached to the fence, and then just cover it with an inch or three of dirt.  Critter tries to dig right at the fence, hits the metal and goes back a foot or so, digs again and still hits the metal.  At that point they usually give up because digging more than a foot or two from the fence becomes more work that it's worth (unless they're truly starving).  Same principle applies to your pavers or salvaged concrete.  I don't see any reason to go down given the extra work involved.

Our digging predators are nocturnal.

The chickens have a fenced run which has a few inches of mesh turned out in a skirt. We went all out protecting their coop, which has a concrete slab floor, and concrete block for the footings of the walls.

We felt this gave us pretty good protection for the amount of material used - certainly compared to making the whole run fox/badger proof.

I would second the idea of an electric fence. Even some sort of mesh like from Premier 1. Many animals will get shocked by an electric fence when trying to dig, which should deter them.

I'm not sure about coyotes and foxes specifically, but a movable pen, besides being better for the land, (in my experience) will make many animals more hesitant, because it is something "new".

A dog.

Possibly a goose? A goose could probably take on a fox, and a few crazy ones have chased coyotes. But at the very least it would make a racket and give you a chance to rescue the chickens.

Try putting it in a high traffic area. I live in rural Maine and while it's not super high in predators, I have noticed much less sign the closer you get to the play areas, the house/garage, and other areas where we humans are frquently. In theory the smell of humans will keep the animals at bay, or at least make them more hesitant. This won't work in really high concentrations of predators, but every little bit might help.

Another option might be to make a moveable or at least off the ground coop. Most predators will try to get the chickens at night. If you create a coop off the ground, and make it super tight with small enough hardware cloth and whatnot, the chickens should be safe at night and there is no metal/concrete/pavers in the ground.

**Edit - Michael beat me to it. Protect the coop and not the whole pen.

Thanks for the answers ya'll. While I do appreciate the additional alternatives presented here, I am definitely looking for a physical digging barrier. We live in a semi urban area, so while most of our digging predators are nocturnal, our main run must also be a fortress from above and below. We have hawks, as well as the occasional loose domestic dog(probably the biggest risk honestly). Our neighbors just lost a hen to an under fence break-in around 4pm, and we wouldn't like to see the same thing happen here. We will have a larger, lower security area where chickens are only allowed while we are in the garden, but will want our main run to look something like this:

Chicken Winter Greenhouse

Electric fences sound great in theory, but seem to require disciplined vegetation management outside of the chicken destruction zone, and to be honest, my partner and I have discovered that's just not who we are... plus as Andrew Mayflower said.... weasels? The chickens my parents had when I was growing up were all murdered by one in spite of the zippety zap.

We do plan on raising the coop off the ground for moisture reasons, but think the under coop area would be a great place for the chickens to find shade, and perhaps dust bathe as it will be sheltered from rain and sun, so we will want it enclosed as well.

Our space is a little small for a movable coop, plus we're pretty intent on being able to stand inside the coop... to keep us honest about the conditions our birds are experiencing.

I think we might go for different solutions for different parts of the boundary in the end. Burying rocks downward around areas where we need to minimize our footprint and out in others, perhaps resorting to the hardware cloth if it proves to be too much work.

I must wonder though, when people use hardware cloth do they make a point of replacing it regularly? I would be worried that it would eventually be nonfunctional and I would have no idea until I lost my entire flock to someone's escaped dog who wasn't even hungry. I suppose the poky bits left behind might still be a deterrent, but this really isn't the type of legacy I want to leave, and I've certainly been willing to scratch my hands up when I was determined for one reason or another.

Either way it's been great to discuss some finer points of predator protection with ya'll. Thanks especially to Andrew. Descriptions of real predator behavior was the main thing I was looking for. I imagine domestic dogs would behave somewhat similarly to foxes or coyotes in that situation as well. I wonder if they would give up sooner because they were less motivated by hunger, or later because they aren't as worried about wearing themselves out and not being able to catch their next meal. They also probably wouldn't be as afraid of humans if they had never killed a chicken before.

There are a *lot* of factors to consider and I'm really glad, Dietrick, that you're weighing your options. However, I'm going to encourage you to look at the big picture!

1. First for the record, in some locations, you will either prepare yourself mentally to loose some birds, or you will build Fort Knox with all the embodied energy and end-of-life issues that entails.

2. Alternatively, "knowing the enemy" goes a long way, but as others have stated on permies, chickens attract predators, so you need to have some plan for predators that might come along after the build. However, learning about the hunting practices of the enemies you know, will help you out-smart their instincts. For example, we occasionally have issues with mink. Mink prey on rats. They do so by finding a rat tunnel, following it and killing every rat in there, and then going back to this "larder" for the next week as they need/want food. So if mink get into your coop, they'll kill every bird - it's not that mink are evil - it's just that's their niche. So one of our key approaches to managing this risk, is to keep rats away from out chicken feed. For our adult chickens, their feed is hung above their perches. A friend simply removes feed at night into a metal trash can. We feed pellets and train the girls to clean up after themselves. A different friend feeds crumble which is harder for chickens to clean up and she's got a major rat problem.

3. Know your eco-system: Andrew Mayflower lives in the Pacific Wet Coast zone - warm enough to rust stuff all winter long! We've stopped using anything but stainless hardware outside for exactly that reason! If your eco-system is similar both putting in lots of rocks for drainage, or compromising and doing a deep concrete wall with hardware cloth above are both better options than putting in a whole concrete floor over a large area, but I'd be looking at 18" deep. But if you're willing to do a trench system, consider putting 2'x2' paving slabs on edge (if you can lift that large - I'd need help myself) *and* put a row of at least 18"x18" flat along the outside edge, so you're covering the diggers from two ways.

4. Consider that chickens dig - and dig - and dig... I've read they dig at the edges supposedly because of the lead from galvanized metal, however, Hubby found an article which suggested that that risk is exaggerated by some. I think they dig there because there's more moisture there and they are more likely to find bugs and worms that were foolish enough to try to sneak in for a poo snack, because I've found they dig out concrete just as much as wire. (Whether I'm right or wrong, if you're worried, grow Sunflowers to absorb the lead and then land-fill the sunflowers.) For one run, I was lucky enough to score some damaged aluminium ladders which I covered with hardware cloth, and put down along the inside edge so the birds couldn't dig near the foundation that was there. The tend to fill it up with dirt, but I made them in 3-4 ft sections so they're easy to lift and clean out.

5. As suggested by others, but I'll state clearly  - there's "run" space and there's "coop" space. For some chicken systems, you can build Fort Knox as a raised structure with metal flashing and wire over windows, and extremely secure doors, and then do a series of paddocks to rotate the birds through where either your version 1 or 2 will probably be good enough for day time. Having the birds move from place to place is a really simple, healthy way to decrease predation!  I have some "mini-hoops" I use with baby birds made of PVC pipe 4'x8' which I move a square every day and I've not had a predator issue. I have Noisy Ducks that often go to Dog Exercise Pen fencing (about 4 chunks of it - so a big space) with nothing but beach umbrellas for aerial protection and so long as they're only out from 10 am to 4 pm and they move regularly, they've been fairly safe. However, if a cougar came along and was really hungry, they'd be toast and even a pair of mink would easily get them, but multiple paddocks has been too hard a sell with Hubby although I'm getting closer to convincing him.

6. We do have a pair of geese on duty during the day. They're not near the Noisy Ducks, and I'm not convinced they'd protect everyone, but they definitely help.

7. Our brooder does have an attached run. I used the angled out wire with big rocks on it system, with lots of little rocks under it for drainage. That said - day use only, the brooder's secure, and we also don't have birds in it for more than 3 weeks normally.

Hopefully, that gives you some ideas.

I'm making my chicken run from an old trampoline frame. It stands 36" tall so I bought 48" chicken wire for a skirt. I'll pin that down with rocks and tent pegs. I intend for this thing to me portable,  as well. I'll cover the top with some plastic mesh like they use in construction. Between the legs I'll hang some swings and roosts.
My hen house will be about 6 to 10 inches off the ground primarily to give young pullets a place to hide from aggressive older chickens. I'm still working on that design, but it too has to be portable for just me to move. I have very little help.
I've also been toying with the idea of a circle run in which the henhouse pivots on a pipe set vertically in concrete. The run will attach to the henhouse and its area is a quarter of the entire circle area. The hens would strip the quarter of the circle they were in down to dirt. The run would be picked up and everything rotated 90°. The hens would have new grass to scratch up. Fast growing grass would be planted in the bare area just left by the hens. Theoretically, that grass would be up pretty high by the time the run is rotated back in a month or so. Not sure how that will work, but I see no downside. It could be scaled up  or down to fit. I'm still working on the henhouse design.
Hope this helps!
PS...I had a picture of the trampoline frame I'm working on but I had purged my phone just yesterday. The top goes on tomorrow and I'll post a picture or two.

As far as aerial predation is concerned, I think giving the birds places to hide is more important than necessarily excluding access from above.  I've got about 3 dozen hens, 3 heritage turkeys (at the moment, one hen is broody and sitting on at least 5 eggs), a dozen BBW turkeys, and 123 (at last count) broiler chickens.  

So far (knock on wood) I've only ever lost 3 broilers to aerial predators (no hens or turkeys).  First year of raising broilers a raven came in and killed those 3.  I used bird netting to protect them the rest of the time for that batch.  Talk about a PITA.  The next year I tried the bird netting but it was such a PITA I gave up, and tried stringing flagging tape over the area.  Since I rotate them around the yard, that was less of a PITA than the bird netting, but still a PITA.  When the turkeys decided they wanted to mix with the chickens I found that they were actually highly effective at protecting the chickens from the ravens, even without anything covering the pasture.  So now I always get BB turkeys a couple/three weeks ahead of the broilers and run them together once the broilers are ready for pasture.  

Keep in mind, I live in probably the most densely populated area for bald eagles in the country, at least for their spring/summer distribution.  We have no shortage of hawks, falcons, and owls here too.  The hens have their coop, and a big cedar tree they can hide under, the heritage turkeys are just too big to be vulerable to other birds, and between the shelter, the trees, and the turkeys the broilers have lots of ways to stay safe from avian predators.

I have had some devastating losses from coyotes.  Lost 6 chickens in a single incursion, and then a couple years later 7 turkeys.  Our fencing has been improved dramatically as a result.  We went with a full property perimeter fence.  "No climb" woven fence 4' tall, and then hot wire to 6.5', plus a hot wire at 6" above the ground.  

After years of trying all this sort of thing, we came upon a really simple solution that was the most predator-proof bird enclosure we'd ever made and the most affordable, simple to put in place, and also removable!  We have the same predators you talked about.

For the base, my husband put in 1.5' concrete pavers.  Big heavy squares.  He made the pen fit the squares perfectly, no gaps. On the outside, he lined it with squares, too, and put a little dirt over those.  The pavers are so heavy that nothing can dig under and push them up.  Predators tend to dig close to a fence and so if there is something to discourage them they stop.  Those pavers were great and reusable!

It was also easy to clean.  We just hosed it down.  We had ducks in this case - if I was using it for chickens I'd put litter in and collect it for the garden.

Many animals tried to get in.  We'd hear them in the night, rattling the cage. They finally gave up.  I think the only thing that could have busted through it with enough effort would have been a bear, but it would have gone straight through the chainlink and hardware cloth that made up the structure.

When we moved, this was all very easy to take apart and leave the space close to how we found it.  And the whole thing setup was portable.  We brought it with us from Oregon to the SW.

I have 5’ cattle Panels around my chicken coop on three sides.  I orig put 5’ plastic 1/2” fence like chicken wire. It lasted awhile till something started chewing holes in it.  My biggest predator is my own dogs.  I raise mini schnauzers.  I have two that want to climb out of their yard.  They have killed a few chickens that flew over the fence, and were foraging close to the dog fence.  Since I have put a Hotwire at the top of my dog fence.  
Now I’m having a problem with snakes and squirrels.  I’ve seen a snake that had just swallowed three eggs.  And squirrels holding eggs in their little grubby hands.  There are quite a few rats around due to a huge tree that fell.  The grass has grown up under the tree.  I’ve called tree guys several times but so far no one has shown up. I know the rats are attracting the snakes.  
I have a roll of flashing maybe 16” wide, I bought for something else that didn’t work out.  I was thinking of using it instead of hardware cloth to bury around my coop.  We have coyotes but because of the dogs, they don’t ever come up this close.  But who knows if they get hungry enough???
I’ve replaced the plastic chicken wire with real 1” chicken wire 2’ tall and some 2’ tall hardware cloth, over 2”x4” welded wire. 6’ tall extended above my 5’ cattle panels with rebar post. The cattle panels are strong and I feel like they prevent large stray dogs from getting through.
I have quite a few breeds of rare bantams and several breeds of regular sized chickens.
I lost a Birchin Cochin bantam hen that was setting on a clutch of eggs.  I noticed an egg missing two days in a row.  Before I figured out what to do, my hen was dead with no signs of struggle.  I think she fought a snake and lost.
I recently was trying to cut the tree up with a chain saw and a huge snake came out of the tall grass.  I couldn’t catch it… it had to be 6’ long.  I’m not one to usually kill non poisonous snakes but if he is going to get my eggs and kill my hens he’s got to go.  
Im thinking of using some pavers and flashing at the bottom of the coop and up the corners.  
My automatic coop door is a complete dud. Any further suggestions I would appreciate.  I have rat snap traps, but are afraid a dog/cat/chicken  or person might step on one. Those things look like that could take a toe off!  

Andrew Mayflower wrote:As far as aerial predation is concerned, I think giving the birds places to hide is more important than necessarily excluding access from above.  I've got about 3 dozen hens, 3 heritage turkeys (at the moment, one hen is broody and sitting on at least 5 eggs), a dozen BBW turkeys, and 123 (at last count) broiler chickens.  

So far (knock on wood) I've only ever lost 3 broilers to aerial predators (no hens or turkeys).  First year of raising broilers a raven came in and killed those 3.  I used bird netting to protect them the rest of the time for that batch.  Talk about a PITA.  The next year I tried the bird netting but it was such a PITA I gave up, and tried stringing flagging tape over the area.  Since I rotate them around the yard, that was less of a PITA than the bird netting, but still a PITA.  When the turkeys decided they wanted to mix with the chickens I found that they were actually highly effective at protecting the chickens from the ravens, even without anything covering the pasture.  So now I always get BB turkeys a couple/three weeks ahead of the broilers and run them together once the broilers are ready for pasture.  

Keep in mind, I live in probably the most densely populated area for bald eagles in the country, at least for their spring/summer distribution.  We have no shortage of hawks, falcons, and owls here too.  The hens have their coop, and a big cedar tree they can hide under, the heritage turkeys are just too big to be vulerable to other birds, and between the shelter, the trees, and the turkeys the broilers have lots of ways to stay safe from avian predators.

I have had some devastating losses from coyotes.  Lost 6 chickens in a single incursion, and then a couple years later 7 turkeys.  Our fencing has been improved dramatically as a result.  We went with a full property perimeter fence.  "No climb" woven fence 4' tall, and then hot wire to 6.5', plus a hot wire at 6" above the ground.  

Need to update this.  Our ravens figured out that the turkeys weren’t really a reason not to attack the broilers.  By the time we found a solution we’d lost 40 of 100 broilers.  I assume hawks probably participated too.  Solution was fishing line strung every 10-15 across their area with 12-18” flagging tape tied to loops in the fishing line every 10-20’.

Also, lost a heritage turkey hen to an eagle.  At least I assume that’s what it was based on the very deep puncture wounds that killed her (sadly not outright -took a couple hours for her to die while I tried to save her).

Opossums have my biggest problem lately.  They love to raid my turkey’s nests for the eggs.  One hen died defending her nest.  And I have just 1 poults that’s hatched so far.  Got lots of eggs in the incubator as I now take them as soon as I find them so the opossum can’t.  No fencing will keep them out unless I remove all trees within 20’ of the fence.  Which I can’t do.

FWIW, large volumes of mangled rebar can be had for free. Pounded into the ground, they be an effective deterrent, and they will last for decades. And since they have now been double recycled (as all rebar is melted from other steel), you can claim double permie points. My 2c.