• Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
permaculture forums growies critters building homesteading energy monies kitchen purity ungarbage community wilderness fiber arts art permaculture artisans regional education skip experiences global resources cider press projects digital market permies.com private forums all forums
this forum made possible by our volunteer staff, including ...
master stewards:
  • Anne Miller
  • Pearl Sutton
  • Nicole Alderman
stewards:
  • Mike Haasl
  • r ranson
  • paul wheaton
master gardeners:
  • jordan barton
  • John F Dean
  • Rob Lineberger
  • Carla Burke
  • Jay Angler
gardeners:
  • Greg Martin
  • Ash Jackson
  • Jordan Holland

the first 100 Otises

 
steward
Posts: 32847
Location: missoula, montana (zone 4)
hugelkultur trees chicken wofati bee woodworking
  • Likes 5
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
The time has come to create the list.

We have had about a dozen people say that they are an Otis and now we have one person that is currently changing their will and they need details.    

I think we need an anoymous list for the Otises.   We have already learned that when an Otis publicly states "I would will my land to a PEP4 person" they get swamped with people saying "will it to me instead! Aw c'mon!  Why not?  I'm awesome as proven by the fact that I can type and I really want free land!"  So we need to show that there is land being offered and to give some vague idea of the property.  And at the same time, keep some of their particulars private.


Public Information

If a PEP4 candidate cannot be arranged, will a PEP3 candidate be acceptable?  PEP2?

What country?

Acres?

General climate notes

Structures (more than one home?  Barn?  Outbuildings?)

Tractor?

Vehicles?

Funds?  

Level of interest in willing land to a PEPper:

   o definitely
   o maybe
   o probably
   o it depends on the PEPper
   o currently thinking about it
   o need to learn more about PEP and the possible candidates
   o other

Transaction timing:

   o the PEPper gets my land after I have died
   o the PEPper comes before I die and they are written into my will on the day they arrive
   o the PEPper comes before I die and if it seems like a good fit, then I write them into my will





Private information

name
email
phone
address



This is the time to figure out the questions.   What other bits of information should be added to this list?

 
paul wheaton
steward
Posts: 32847
Location: missoula, montana (zone 4)
hugelkultur trees chicken wofati bee woodworking
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
My guess is that by the time the first person completes PEP2, they will get six or seven Otis options.

By the time the first person completes PEP4, that person will probably get a hundred Otis options.  

I guess what I am trying to say is that I think that the desire for PEPpers is already quite big.     My guess is that for the first ten years there will be 50 Otises for every PEPper.   Maybe after that it will settle to something closer to 20-to-1 or 10-to-1.

---

At the time, we are still hammering out details for the curriculum and changes to our software.  But it is clear that we are long overdue on organizing the information on the Otises.  

 
master gardener
Posts: 2114
Location: southern Illinois.
513
goat cat dog chicken composting toilet food preservation bee solar wood heat homestead
  • Likes 3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I appreciate the consideration of climate in your list.  What one person sees as intolerable another will see as perfect.  While you do not see a shortage of Otises, you may still wish to consider the marketing ...or at least validity aspect.  I understand that once the property is transferred it is transferred and conditions are difficult to enforce at best.  That said, I can see a real benefit to a PEP 5 (for lack of a better term) which would be a light follow up of the candidates experiences for the first year after they obtained the property.  I can see where this could be a real benefit for attracting future Otises.  I would hope that the person receiving the property would be happy to engage in such a project.
 
pollinator
Posts: 138
Location: Idaho
67
  • Likes 9
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Before I would ever consider willing property to a PEPer, they would have to show that they could keep the land running financially, which would mean some kind of a financial plan. I could easily see a scenario where someone shows up with no money, gets the land, then can't pay taxes and other bills and has to sell it.

They would have to show that they want, and can afford to live there at least 10 years. Affording to live there can be from their own resources, ongoing employment, or from a solid plan to make money from the property in a way that's in line with the ethics of the initial owner (me). Having a plan would benefit the PEPer too. How will they pay the capital gains tax from receiving the property? Are there any outstanding tax liens on the property or personal property? We got bit by the last one when we bought Ag property with an old business on it. We resolved it but it was a pain in the ass to deal with.

I'm not trying to toss cold water on this process. I find it's better to think through all the facets before making a move as big as this so that it succeeds. Unintended consequences are usually expensive and can derail the best intentions.

 
John F Dean
master gardener
Posts: 2114
Location: southern Illinois.
513
goat cat dog chicken composting toilet food preservation bee solar wood heat homestead
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Hi Robin,

I suspect the fact that someone is willing to complete the PEP provides a significant filter.  Inheritances are treated differently state to state.  And, of course, conditions can be placed in the will.
 
Posts: 77
23
  • Likes 3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
The possibility of friction from potential heirs might need to be addressed in the legal jargon. A relative lusting for a million-dollar property could appear from the woodwork to contest the will:

"Your honor, out of nowhere this smooth-talking Guy From The Internet shows up and within a month svengali-ed my client's dear 'ol uncle into rejecting the loving nephew what personally cared for his every need in his declining years!"
 
paul wheaton
steward
Posts: 32847
Location: missoula, montana (zone 4)
hugelkultur trees chicken wofati bee woodworking
  • Likes 3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I think Robin's needs are covered in the commerce badge.
 
steward
Posts: 8855
Location: Northern WI (zone 4)
2544
hunting trees books food preservation solar woodworking
  • Likes 3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I'd say that "Private Information" could also benefit from:

      Otis's assessment of the likelihood of a contested will

I think that a key component will be a questionnaire for PEPpers as well.  Once you're to PEP1, you get to fill it out.  The primary question in it is where you would be happy to live.  Maybe down to the county level or enclosing areas on a map for Yes or No.  Then if an Otis has willed their land to any suitable PEPper, the field of PEPpers can be narrowed down to ones that would actually want to live in that spot.  

You could offer me all the best homesteads in Texas and I'd graciously decline all of them (no offense, I just can't handle the heat).
 
John F Dean
master gardener
Posts: 2114
Location: southern Illinois.
513
goat cat dog chicken composting toilet food preservation bee solar wood heat homestead
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Hi Dc,

Self appointed heirs are always a potential risk.  This is something to be discussed with an attorney as the will is written.  I suspect that if the will has been in place for a number of years, it will be more difficult for challenge on the basis you identify.
 
pollinator
Posts: 161
Location: Melbourne, Australia
98
hugelkultur forest garden fungi trees books cooking food preservation writing
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I think your list covers the most important basics. However, in the public information, it may also help to have a description/explanation of current developments (Like if they are implementing rotational grazing, or have an established food forest, etc.) and maybe even what developments they want to see come to pass. How much of the development is going to be open to the PEPper and how much to the current land owner? What are their expectations of a PEPper, seeing this could help people tell quickly if they may be a potential match, like if it is expected that they never keep animals on the property for food then it would be something many people would not want to agree to.

Also, is there a way/place to rent out land/property or otherwise test potential PEPpers? I would be highly interested in this myself. I listed my property for rent on permies and thus far have mostly just been flooded with emails from people wanting to get to stay there for free and my property has been treated very unkind by tenants who even had their PDC certificate and years of experience. So I agree very much with the problems of:

We have already learned that when an Otis publicly states "I would will my land to a PEP4 person" they get swamped with people saying "will it to me instead! Aw c'mon!  Why not?  I'm awesome as proven by the fact that I can type and I really want free land!"  



I think all of this is a wonderful idea and you guys are doing a great job trying to find ways around the obstacles. I do wish I had been at my farm to have gotten badges myself now that the program exists!
 
Mike Haasl
steward
Posts: 8855
Location: Northern WI (zone 4)
2544
hunting trees books food preservation solar woodworking
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Hi Aimee, I'm glad you like the program!  The easiest way that I think you could select PEPpers would be to set a minimum requirement for their accumulated PEP badges.  The badges are made up of BBs (Badge Bits).  Before a PEPper gets to PEP1 there are intermediate badges like BB10 and BB60.  Perhaps limiting the rental to people with BB40 or PEP1 might be a way to find people who are serious about PEP and maybe line up better with what you're after.  Or if you care deeply about a few badges, require the Sand or Straw badges for those aspects.

We don't have a special place for those sorts of rental offerings so I'd just put it in the normal rental forum for now.
 
Mike Haasl
steward
Posts: 8855
Location: Northern WI (zone 4)
2544
hunting trees books food preservation solar woodworking
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Or, since we don't actually have a rental section...  How about:
Land shares or
Permaculture Real Estate
 
Aimee Hall
pollinator
Posts: 161
Location: Melbourne, Australia
98
hugelkultur forest garden fungi trees books cooking food preservation writing
  • Likes 3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Thank you Mike, I actually had mine listed under permaculture real estate. I may list it again as it is about to be available but I am now wary. I found a tenant on permies and it will have cost me significantly more to have had them there the last 6 months than if I had left the property empty. They are very nice, but every tiny thing turned into a huge mess unfortunately. I will be paying the bills on that particular experience for another year and a half. Part of why I find the idea of the requiring certain badges, etc. particularly appealing.

Hopefully in the next year or so, I will be able to return to the states and get the property back into really good shape. It looks like I am going to be in Australia for several years and finding the right tenants to care for the property is very important to me. At last report, most of my well established perennial vegetables like air potatoes, leeks (elephant garlic), sea kale, turkish rocket, jerusalem artichokes,  etc are all gone!

Most people who are renting are not so interested in the land and its potential. Most of the messages I got were looking to stay on my property free of charge and that is beyond my means, and I imagine the means of most folk. Even the rental agency is only now starting to appreciate that it is the land and its care which is most important to me, where most people are most worried about the house/out buildings. Though I may be weird in this situation as I am in so many others. Thank you very much for your suggestions, you are always exceptionally helpful and awesome! =)
 
paul wheaton
steward
Posts: 32847
Location: missoula, montana (zone 4)
hugelkultur trees chicken wofati bee woodworking
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Aimee,

A few years from now, would you be willing to knock a big chunk off the rent for somebody that is PEP1 certified?  Maybe even a bigger chunk for somebody PEP2 certified?

 
Aimee Hall
pollinator
Posts: 161
Location: Melbourne, Australia
98
hugelkultur forest garden fungi trees books cooking food preservation writing
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Yes, I am.

I had been knocking a big chunk of for someone from Permies already in my posting, so getting someone pep certified would be great. I have to tell the real estate company who those folk are because it is market listed at a higher rate of course.

The house costs me $1,200 a month (plus all the upkeep expenses that come along, and of course the rental company gets 10% of anything for renting it but as I am abroad they are a definite must. So it has actually averaged out to about $1,500 a month in expenses.) and for someone qualified I would be willing to charge quite a bit less, because I hate to see what I have put SO much work into being torn up.
 
If you want to look young and thin, hang around old, fat people. Or this tiny ad:
Food Forest Card Game - Game Forum
https://permies.com/t/61704/Food-Forest-Card-Game-Game
reply
    Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic