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survival tips thread

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posted 15 years ago

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Well, not sure if this falls under 'general homesteading', but I've noticed that folks have had some really great survival tips elsewhere in this forum. let's talk about it more here!

there was one place where someone said that children, who are more instinctive, are more likely to survive out in the woods than an adult who's overconfident and thus makes stupid mistakes

and then in another forum, someone just mentioned the warm jell-o stays warm longer in someone's belly than warm water. if any warm jello is handy....

i guess i have one to add. my brother-n-law and i were just talking about food shortages. he thinks if we have a shortage many people would just be unable to ration. being that we can live for three weeks without food, he's all about the one-can-o-food-per-day ration if not less. we can survive just fine with much less food in our bellies than the average american can conceive of...

Divine Earth Gardening Project

Leah Sattler

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posted 15 years ago

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for me the most likely survival situation isn't a lost in the wood scenario so i think differently.

inability to ration foo is why when stockpiling reserves it is important to stock things you would normally eat in the amounts you would normally eat. and once again the guy who thinks "I am a trained survivalist, I don't need cans of soup, I need a bow and arrow"

is the guy least likely to make it imo he thinks because he can distill water and make fire with flint that he doesn't need all those sissy reserves. I personally stockpile more and have more convenience foods than we typically eat. in a desperate or extremely stressed situations comfort foods, easy foods, etc... will be much more appealing than something that you have to work hard at preparing after shivering in the cold or wandering scrounging for food all day. survival time is no time for worrying about whether brownies are good for you as long as you are eating a basically healthy diet. and its no time to try and stick to idealistic notions. for example I have a bag of "seven" I keep in the garage. if the shtf and some bug is decimating my garden I will use it even though I am adamantly against the use of pesticides in my garden plot. additionally you will likely be burning more calories for a variety of reasons in a deperate situation. surviving a real shtf scenario is as much about knowing how to keep yourself hopeful and wanting to survive (as well as those around you) as it is about knowing how.

long term shtf scenario should have you planning for long term survival. although you need to cultivate fruits and vegies for variety and nutrients focusing on calorie crops is important. and wildcrafting for greens is nice but dandelions aren't going to fuel your body adequatly for a 10 mile hike or lugging water buckets to the animals that are crucial to your survival. unless you have fields of crops than grain crops are not your answer. potatoes.

I am in a rather high state of anxiety now with the economy the way it is and my using up my stocks to move to a house that likely will not have any established garden. My freezer is less than 1/2 full now and my pantry is 1/3 plundered except for a few long term staples. eeeeekkkkk.

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Susan Monroe

Posts: 1093

Location: Western WA

posted 15 years ago

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All very true, Leah.

Survival is probably one-third each of mindset, knowledge and preparation.

And when people think of 'survival', they often think of wilderness survival, and think they don't have to even think about that because they never go into the wilderness. They don't think of the wilderness areas they pass through, like driving from Yakima to Olympia. The chances are excellent that, even if it's midwinter, they don't have extra clothing, a sleeping bag, firemaking supplies, a metal pot, bottled water or any granola bars in the car.

There's urban survival, like what do you do if you were shopping in Seattle and the Big One hits. many of the overpasses are down, buildings have collapsed (including your apartment). What do you do then?

And there's accident survival, like a plane crash. A cold wind blowing, you're dressed for a business meeting, and have no gear except your purse and briefcase. Now what?

There's evacuation survival, from a dam breaking, flooding, wildfire, toxic tank leak (truck or rail car), and you have to go somewhere else temporarily, a relative's home, a campground, a Red Cross shelter.

And there's survival at home, the best option, in my opinion. I feel that I would be better off living in a small tent and having access to my stuff (books, tools, bedding, etc) than leaving it all behind (my last option).

Although situations may differ, some things remain the same, and that tends to be the priorities:
- First aid
- Shelter
- Fire
- Water
- Signal
- Food

If you have a small pack with a couple of mylar emergency blankets, a Bic-type lighter and some tinder, a metal cup and some beef jerky and granola bars, you would be ahead of practically everyone else in the country.

Even the stuff in your purse can be valuable. Half a tampon (fluffed out) with lip balm or gel sanitizer can get a fire started if you've got a lighter or other firestarter with you. A compact mirror or rear-view mirror can signal a plane, as can the lit-up face of a cell phone.

Signals in threes is an international distress signal -- three blasts on a whistle, three gunshots, three fires in a large triangle.

But the most important survival tool is between your ears.

Sue

Leah Sattler

Posts: 2603

posted 15 years ago

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Susan Monroe wrote:

But the most important survival tool is between your ears.

Sue

the truest statement yet.

I read "the road" by cormac mcarthey (sp?) a few days ago. shudder. you want to talk about survival......its fiction but still......I had been wanting it and I finally found it in a paperback (cheap

)

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Susan Monroe

Posts: 1093

Location: Western WA

posted 15 years ago

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Many of the survivalist folks are big on Bug-Out Bags, kits of useful stuff if they had to leave home and escape to the wilderness or something. Not likely, for most people.

More likely would be the need for a Bug-Home Bag, with things to help you get home from a bad situation.

How many times do you read about 'experienced hikers' who left all their gear in camp and went on a day hike that turned into a 6-day survival test? It's the old It-Can;t-Happen-To-Me Syndrome. Well, it CAN happen to you... anytime. Usually at the most inconvenient time.

Plan ahead and you'll be ahead.

Sue

Leah Sattler

Posts: 2603

posted 15 years ago

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I have put together a simple BOB before but let it fall apart, I don't want to be one of the "it can't happen to me" folks but I do think that a bug out scenario is one of the least likely ones. Its different depending on geographic area too. I have trouble envisioning a true bug out scenario other than one at gunpoint, and at that point I would be standing my ground with them at gun point , not asking "may I please grab my BOB after you rape me and before you take me to a camp mr. militia man?". even things such as forest fire or flood evacuations are not imo a true survival issue regarding a BOB, unless it his on a huge scale, really really annoying but not "survival". Far more likely is something that cuts you off from medical help and food and water long or short term enough to be a serious problem. I do think it is especially prudent for those with medical conditions requiring medication to have such a bag obviously. I suppose in a long term cut off from help situation where your house burned down in a rural area then a BOB might be essential. maybe I should put it back together.....

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Susan Monroe

Posts: 1093

Location: Western WA

posted 15 years ago

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For me, the BugOut Bag would be for things like a toxic spill. I live a half-mile from a RR crossing and less than that to the highway. Any bugging out would probably be short-term, like go away until the leaking chlorine tank disperses when the sun comes up, or a major fire coming in my direction.

But going out in conditions like we've got in the PNW right now, well, it would make sense to carry some things, just in case. My sister took a sleeping bag, foam pad and small pillow, as well as a change of clothes to work yesterday. She said if you can't get out, you have to stay at the hospital and sleep on the cold floor. The member of the Providence hospital chain where she works isn't exactly what you would call well-run. Their annual disaster drills are like old Three Stooges movies.

People really need to plan for things that would be likely to affect THEM, not anyone else. If Mt. Rainier blew, would most people have the stuff to deal with a massive ash fall?

Any emergency plans should be tailor-made for each family.

Sue

Leah Sattler

Posts: 2603

posted 15 years ago

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yesterday evening i watched a show on public television about a guy who spends a portion of each winter camping in yellowstone (photographer). of course the winters can be pretty brutal.he camped with only his coat, and winter wear, and a down sleeping bag. he had a tarp that he strung up essentially making a back and a roof. they didn't cover much about what he carried for food. but seeing that makes me think even more that it is a mind set more than anything. most people, having only those things and in the wilderness would die of panic! of course the guy obviously knew his way around and that alleviates a large portion of the panic factor I suppose. what an awsome experience that would be!

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Matt Ferrall

Posts: 561

Location: Western WA,usda zone 6/7,80inches of rain,250feet elevation

posted 15 years ago

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I was just reading about the power outages in MO and how the amish saved the day for alot of people.One community talked about how every morning the amish would bring them coffee.Well It seems like they are probably able to weather a storm like this or even an entire winter but beyond that,I see some problems to their survival statagies.Like many permaculture sites,survival seems to meen "survival for a while until the empire gets rolling again and we can go back to the store".True survival seems like it would aim for something a bit more self sufficiant.
Permaculture seems to include lots of these off farm inputs.Plastic for greenhouses and hoses for instance.Given this,I can only imagine what a permaculture future would look like.News articles about birds dieing from injesting greenhouse plastic,the Uv protectant turns out to cause breast cancer ect...Your new toxic prmaculture paridise!!If this is the future we are promoting then by all means people-stay inside and get your food from the store for the planets sake!(I guess this is based on my premise that decetralized industrial society is acually more toxic than centralized)
well actually Ill elaborate on that.I believe that one giant tractor is more efficient than 10 little tractors and more efficient than 100 rototillers.Even with the added costs of distributing the produce.How much fluid is leaked/spilled filling 100 rototillers.How many trips to get gas or parts.How much time for 100 peoples learning curves and maintnence instruction.How much sprawling infrastructure to support our ability to be self sufficient!
Many permie sites ive been too depend on chippers,rototillers,green houses,electicity(pumps ect..),mills,industrialy produced and imported grains,hay,and straw,resourse intensive metal for barns and fencing,and plastic for all sorts of stuff.If they are off the centralised grid then they are usually on the (just as toxic)alternative grid(I have lived on strictly solar for 9yrs and after years of research got dissilussioned with that too-LEAD batteries ect....)
Now if(and I know this could not happen right?)a permiculture homestead dependent on these things were to not be able to get them or had them stolen,how would its production compare to conventional agriculture(if they both were in the same boat)and how would it compare to a more wild(less dependent)managed system?How would it compare over a week,a year,indefinitely?This is why I think rewilding has alot to offer permacuture.It focuses our direction away from dependance on our ecologicaly devestating industrial society.(I originally thought thats what permaculture was supposed to be about but after 15yrs in the movement,Im pretty sure permaculture is just gardening and animal husbandry-same ole stuff just a new package)
Sure take what you can salvage from the system.Salvage is going to be huge in the future!But I prefer to use it in the direction of lessening my dependence.Like using this library computer to get ideas that manifest inthe physical.
OK so my responses on this site might seem like personal attacks sometimes but really I just gotta say this stuff because I feel the need to defend permacultures name.More and more people are going to be interested in how to survive on this earth as the economy starts to slip.I think its our resposibilty as supposidly the "cutting edge" of sustainability to pioneer examples that are truly sustainable.I dont want to imply to some poor person that if they want to be sustainable,the first thing they should do is go buy a greenhouse from some giant corporation.oh yea,and they will also need at least 50k for all the crap for sale in MOther Earth News and 100k for all the infrastrucure to house and maintain it all.Then they too can become self sufficiant.1st world self sufficient!
Hey people,you can grow food just fine without all that crap,just not basil and tomatoes!
Why build a beautiful landscape dependent on the house of cards infrastrucure.You can tell me what grows good where you are at but if it includes all this stuff then the information is practicaly useless to me.Of course you can grow citrus in the Pacific NW with a heated greenhouse!In a survival situation,am I going to have time to hand water plants?or repair the hydro system?It ultimately breaks anyway so then what?

There is nothing permanent in a culture dependent on such temporaries as civilization.

www.feralfarmagroforestry.com

Leah Sattler

Posts: 2603

posted 15 years ago

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Mt.goat wrote:
survival seems to meen "survival for a while until the empire gets rolling again and we can go back to the store".True survival seems like it would aim for something a bit more self sufficiant.

I always chuckle when I see "survival guides" that say to have 3 days supply of food and water. it is obvious that is just a tactic to use while awaiting rescue.

!(I guess this is based on my premise that decetralized industrial society is acually more toxic than centralized)

I agree, with that premise, and since I think it is highly unlikely that even 20% of the modern world will ever be willing to go backwards as far as modern conveniences go I think a utopian view is fun to think about but seriously unproductive.

How much time for 100 peoples learning curves and maintnence instruction.

well if learning curves are not allowed I don't think any of us should be here

Many permie sites ive been too depend on chippers,rototillers,green houses,electicity(pumps ect..),mills,industrialy produced and imported grains,hay,and straw,resourse intensive metal for barns and fencing,and plastic for all sorts of stuff.If they are off the centralised grid then they are usually on the (just as toxic)alternative grid(I have lived on strictly solar for 9yrs and after years of research got dissilussioned with that too-LEAD batteries ect....)

This is why I think rewilding has alot to offer permacuture.It focuses our direction away from dependance on our ecologicaly devestating industrial society.(I originally thought thats what permaculture was supposed to be about but after 15yrs in the movement,Im pretty sure permaculture is just gardening and animal husbandry-same ole stuff just a new package)

permanent agriculture. that is what it is to me. sustainable agriculture. meaning it doesn't really matter what you use in the present as long as it is not preventing future agriculture. I think all the details of what does and does not prevent future agriculture is debatable and will continue to evolve. some things are trendy but unrealistic somethings are truly toxic and something are only regarded as so or are only toxic in large quantities like appleseeds.

Sure take what you can salvage from the system.Salvage is going to be huge in the future!But I prefer to use it in the direction of lessening my dependence.Like using this library computer to get ideas that manifest in the physical.

using the library computer is less dependent? to me you are depending on the good ole gooberment to provide you with access to the web. I can gaurantee the enviromental impact of the computer at the library is more than a home one. manufacturing is the same it jsut has to go through more sticky hands and red tape before it gets there

OK so my responses on this site might seem like personal attacks sometimes but really I just gotta say this stuff because I feel the need to defend permacultures name.

if you don't take things as personal attacks then assume others won't. permaculture doesn't need to be defended it needs healthy debate (that I happen to enjoy). if it becomes a permanent set of ideas then it will no longer be viable and will seek to become a dictatorship with a few self rightious people telling everyone else what to do/not to do. that is a recipe for alienating people to the whole concept and prevent the use of the permaculture name and ideas to truly make a difference in this world.

Why build a beautiful landscape dependent on the house of cards infrastrucure.

the point is to build a better infrastructure that is not a house of cards. permanent sustainable agricultural infrastructure. even if you use the other take on the definition...permanent culture....then that is not what you are talking about and certainly not what you are defending. you seem to be more concerned with promotion of an individualist mindset to become sustainable, not " culturist" ideas. and that is ok too. but never utilizing outside resources and "rewilding" is not a culture of like minded people it is a person living alone in the woods.

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paul wheaton

author and steward

Posts: 51905

Location: missoula, montana (zone 4)

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posted 15 years ago

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Survival .... wow, this can mean so many different things ...

I guess all of this stuff that we are trying to figure out really comes back to a form of survival prep. I tend to think of it as more of "safety" which then breeds "freedom."

Once in a while we talk about TSHTF and the mad max world. But I think more about a space where things bounce between kinda good and kinda bad. Maybe another depression is gonna happen. So I guess I see the mad max scene as a remote possibility.

In the meantime, I think about things like a full farm eco system. Something with minimal input and maximum harvest. Something with community. Since 90% of the food would come from this imaginary farm, then the farm would be safe from economic downturns - at least all of those shy of the mad max scenario.

I like the idea of a path that has certain comforts.

So then it becomes a bit of a juggle between all of the different aspects.

And then work in the aspect that all of this gets a lot easier when you are surrounded with like minded folk. So then you explore ways to help that happen ...

For now ... get the idea of where you want to go ... then look at the materials you have on hand to help find the smoothest/quickest path to where you want to be ...

My books, movies, videos, podcasts, events ... the big collection of paul wheaton stuff!

Susan Monroe

Posts: 1093

Location: Western WA

posted 15 years ago

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That's good, Paul.

We can only control a very small part of our general area, and 'control' is really just a general term.

We do the best we can with what we've got, mentally, physically and emotionally. Sometimes we've got more of one than the others.

We can teach others if they want to learn, but we can't force it on them, no matter how strongly we feel. If a neighbor wants to know how to grow tomatoes and you think she should grow all kinds of things, start with tomatoes. What the other person wants IS important. What is important to you isn't necessarily what is important to the next person.

You do what YOU can. Start with that. Someone near you may be watching and think, "Hey, that looks like a good idea! Could you help me learn to do that?"

There is always resistance to force of any kind.

Sue

Brenda Groth

pollinator

Posts: 4437

Location: North Central Michigan

posted 15 years ago

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being involved in this train of thought for about 40 years i have had a lot of ideas on survival..and some have gone by the wayside..however, i find that other than the deep woods of winter, i can eat just about eveything in our woods and yard if i have to, not that it tastes good, but it is edible..and we have enough wood around to keep us from freezing even if our wood boiler cirulation won't work as we have a fireplace we can use if we have to..

i guess that was why i was so excited about the aegopodium, no maybe it doesn't taste good, but it grows like crazy, we have cattails in our pond, daylillies by the hundreds, food every where we turn that we grow for beauty or other reasons besides our food crops, that we can eat if we have to, and yes if i had to i might eat DOE too..but i wouldn't want to..and the hundreds of bunnies, possum, coon,etc that roam our yard.

the hard time is winter..so around here if we keep seeds for summer and enough food to last the winter and earliest spring, we are pretty much all set if something should happen, i also have a greenhouse and a glassed in s facing porch where i can grow crops inside if i have to..and i am lucky to live in the middle of nowhere off the beaten path and have protection..we always keep enough canned products and boxed products that we could prepare in our fireplace if we had to to survive many many months..for a lot of city people water will be a problem, and here it might as we used to own property with a flowing well which we don't now as we sold it in oct..so one of our future plans is to put down another flowing well on the property we still own..then there isn't much of anything we will need that we don't have..

i think thinking through every day what you would need is a fantastic idea for everyone..and if you live in a NY apartment, i feel so bad for you.

Brenda

Bloom where you are planted.
http://restfultrailsfoodforestgarden.blogspot.com/

Matt Ferrall

Posts: 561

Location: Western WA,usda zone 6/7,80inches of rain,250feet elevation

posted 15 years ago

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Yea water is going to be huge.Most cities here on the west coast have open water sources so if there is a nuclear war in the world they are all going to be drinking the fallout.This christmas,I gave my neighbors well buckets that I got at Lehmans non-electric for about 50$ each.They are 3" wide so they can fit down a standard well casing with a rope or chain.They plug up their bottom when you lift and carry 2 or 3 gallons.You have to pull out the pump first but if the power was out for a long time,they would really come in handy.
I agree that its good to plan for all possibilities.I have 6mo of food on hand at all times but also am learning primitive skills in case I have to flee to the hills.As well,I am learning firearm skills and hopefully archery at some point.

There is nothing permanent in a culture dependent on such temporaries as civilization.

www.feralfarmagroforestry.com

Matt Ferrall

Posts: 561

Location: Western WA,usda zone 6/7,80inches of rain,250feet elevation

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yea as soon as civilisation stops forcing me to experience it then I'll stop resisting.

There is nothing permanent in a culture dependent on such temporaries as civilization.

www.feralfarmagroforestry.com

Susan Monroe

Posts: 1093

Location: Western WA

posted 15 years ago

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I don't think we're looking at a nuclear war as much as we're probably staring a major depression right in the face.

One of the long-time regular guys on another forum (not permie) is bright, knowledgeable, a scientist and not a cry-wolf sort of person. Today, he said ""Hit the red button, folks. My long-term financial adviser over at Morgan Stanley just told me to double my stocks of rice, beans, and ammo and to push my retirement back ten years. Something dark and terrible is coming."

Water is a really big issue, even here in WA. Yes, it does rain nine months of the year, but usually during the other three months we get NOTHING. I'm looking into building a homemade tank of about 5,000 gallons, made from fence wire, chicken wire and concrete. All I need is the money. But there is no natural water within a mile, and the river that is about a mile away is heavily contaminated -- people are advised not to eat the fish in it. City water here, no well.

If anyone has any brilliant (and cheap, very cheap) ideas, please post.

Sue

Ken Peavey

steward

Posts: 2482

Location: FL

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posted 14 years ago

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In a survival situation the first thing most people do is ration their food. Survival is hard work, it takes a lot of calories. Having a long term food storage plan is leaving the fringe and entering the mainstream. With the recession, making ends meet is all the more important. Buying in bulk makes good sense even in good times. Having a pantry stocked with a wide array of products is convenient and practical. In the event a crisis prevents, that stored food can make the difference between getting by and going hungry.

Seed the Mind, Harvest Ideas.
http://farmwhisperer.com

Posts: 34

posted 14 years ago

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Susan Monroe wrote:
I don't think we're looking at a nuclear war as much as we're probably staring a major depression right in the face...

I think so too. Hyper-inflation, with dramatically rising energy and food prices.

We've stored some staples like beans, wheat, salt and honey. We've learned how to do it economically, using PETE bottles and oxygen absorbers.

But we think that what's more important than storing food is being able to garden and forage. We enjoy those hobbies anyway, now we're just getting more serious about them, especially the latter. We're surrounded by food that most people just don't recognize as such.

Other things we've done or are working on:

Investing in the equipment to be more efficient foragers - crawfish traps, blueberry rakes, hand-crank nutcracker, etc.

Adding organic matter to improve our soil. That's like money in the bank.

Planting more fruit trees and bushes.

Building a predator-proof chicken coop.

Keeping bees.

The staples we have stored would be a bland survival diet by themselves. But we have the tools and knowledge to add everything from chanterelles to venison. And it's not just a hypothetical plan, we do it now and have fun. The best way to learn to eat wild is to eat wild.

Seth Pogue

Posts: 81

posted 14 years ago

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Build a monolithic dome ecoshell into a hillside, serves triple purposes of root cellar, radiation shelter, bulletproof protection from apocalypse zombies. If you're in the Missoula area contact me and I'll build you one turnkey, 30' dia., 700 s.f, $9k.

Fred Morgan

steward

Posts: 979

Location: Northern Zone, Costa Rica - 200 to 300 meters Tropical Humid Rainforest

posted 14 years ago

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I think perhaps one of the things that helps you figure out whether you could make it or not under a certain situation is to try it. One of the most memorable times of my life was when I was 18 and I decided to camp out, by my self, in the forever wild part of the Adirondacks (Around Stillwater lake, if anyone is curious) I was armed to the teeth and I am pretty good with a rifle.

One thing I learned really fast (besides have a 4-wheel drive vehicle when you go off road.

) was that where I am complete comfortable camping with people, is pretty scary, alone.

And the fish aren't biting when you are hungry... I swear they can smell your hunger.

I often hear about people talking about how they will raise all their food, and fish and hunt. You would be surprised how many of them have never had a garden, and rarely fish or hunt. The skills you need you don't want to be learning while you are starving - or freezing.

Sustainable Plantations and Agroforestry in Costa Rica

Seth Pogue

Posts: 81

posted 14 years ago

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Could be a good idea to be scared when camping alone in NY in a placwe where someone can drive to.

That's why I vastly prefer to go on foot, deep into the wilderness, where you don't have to worry about seeing another person, and the fish are always hungry.

Posts: 175

Location: Suwon, South Korea

posted 14 years ago

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Kelda O. wrote:
many people would just be unable to ration. being that we can live for three weeks without food,

There are many tips useful for permaculture in the survival literature. But I question just how realistic the proverbial "Rule of Threes" is. Yes, you can live for three weeks without food, but by not eating you are lowering your resistance to disease and hypothermia and becoming depleted of energy, all of which makes finding food even more problematic. I wouldn't change the ranking of priorities, but I wouldn't delay finding food either.

Fred Morgan

steward

Posts: 979

Location: Northern Zone, Costa Rica - 200 to 300 meters Tropical Humid Rainforest

posted 14 years ago

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Seth Pogue wrote:
Could be a good idea to be scared when camping alone in NY in a placwe where someone can drive to.

That's why I vastly prefer to go on foot, deep into the wilderness, where you don't have to worry about seeing another person, and the fish are always hungry.

Let's say you couldn't really drive there, which is why I had to hike out six miles to the ranger to get help getting unstuck...

ops:

And the spooky part wasn't the people - lots of wildlife, some of it large.

Sustainable Plantations and Agroforestry in Costa Rica

Posts: 34

posted 14 years ago

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Got hired a couple years ago to fly a tiny bushplane from Seattle to New Hampshire. Took ten days to do it. Stayed as remote as possible except when I needed gas. This is what I had on me for survival gear. Notice especially the variety of firestarters and tinders that can all be used with one hand. The tarp everything is displayed on was folded up and I sat on it. My sleeping bag and food were behind the seat.

Lisa Paulson

Posts: 258

posted 14 years ago

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I think a lot of practical and resourceful ideas meet and cross over from being a prepper type to surmount situations to being a permaculture enthusiast . Being prepared for what ever comes your way be it peak oil and the economy or a natural disaster, to simply anticipating what could come up with the food supply being largely in the hands of big business, I think there are those basic principals needed to survive , above, to have thought out and even put into your lifestyle practice . That is why I have sought out forums to learn from. The environment is very important to me, both nature and a healthy environment for my family. And I do not see a lot of very practical or resourceful people in my vicinity , even though most have their own acreages and in my acqaintances , few have a food garden let alone a chicken , so online is my education which I then apply.

I am slowly working on the permaculture aspects but in other ways I am a prepper, we live in an area of high probabilty of earthquake on the west coast so I am learning to make changes to accomodate challenging situations. I just see it all as living conciously with thought and appreciation with survival in mind as an outcome! Okay, practical and cheap ideas, buy heavy black contractors garbage bags and have some handy . I have one in each BOB, truck, workshop, bike pannier, a case in my house with good quality duct tape. Many practical uses from improvised raingear when you least expected to need any, to transporting a find like seaweed for my compost, i suppose you could drape one over a bush and collect condensation for drinking water in an extreme situation, or use it for sanitation as sickbag in rush hour traffic. I think there could be a whole thread on how you could use them.

My latest thing has been experimenting with cheap solar garden lights I bring in for
night lights in the bathroom, night lights in each bedroom easy to turn off once snuggled into bed but if there in an emergency we have a back up light source, like when grid power goes down in a storm at night (yeah we have candles and flashlights too) I want to hang some pretty sconces so I can grab a solar light and hang it by the door so i can see where to put the key in the door knob at night.
Practical and good for the environment and you can use them to recharge small rechargeable batteries for other things.

Kirk Hutchison

Posts: 418

Location: Eugene, OR

posted 14 years ago

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Most people think of being stuck in the woods in a survival situation. I think of being stuck in the city and trying to get to the woods!

Fred Morgan

steward

Posts: 979

Location: Northern Zone, Costa Rica - 200 to 300 meters Tropical Humid Rainforest

posted 14 years ago

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Kirk Hutchison wrote:
Most people think of being stuck in the woods in a survival situation. I think of being stuck in the city and trying to get to the woods!

There is some truth to that. The TV show, survivor man (or whatever it is) were the man is dropped into a situation and has to survive was hilarious to those of us who know the jungles of Costa Rica. Drop me in a jungle here and I will come out fatter.

It is amazing how much food is in a jungle if you can recognize it.

Sustainable Plantations and Agroforestry in Costa Rica

Posts: 34

posted 14 years ago

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Fred Morgan wrote:
There is some truth to that. The TV show, survivor man (or whatever it is) were the man is dropped into a situation and has to survive was hilarious to those of us who know the jungles of Costa Rica. Drop me in a jungle here and I will come out fatter. It is amazing how much food is in a jungle if you can recognize it.

I went through jungle survival school in the Marines. We all lost weight and were very hungry the whole time.

Kathleen Sanderson

pollinator

Posts: 1558

Location: Zone 6b

210

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posted 14 years ago

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I've been trying to be prepared for financial collapse, which is probably coming sooner rather than later. It's difficult to do everything that needs to be done when you are just one person with a very limited income, but I have accomplished some things.

Solar powered battery charger -- will charge four AA, AAA, C, or D cell batteries. I need to get more rechargeable batteries, but have enough to last for a while. They'll run several small LED lights, including the two headlamps that I use for working outdoors after dark. Would also run my small short-wave radio.

Bicycle for transportation, and a cargo trailer for it. Spare tires and a spare chain and a tool kit.

Some stored food, but we don't have much space for that and need to depend on the garden, the chickens, meat rabbits and dairy goats.

A hand-cranked clothes wringer and a couple of scrub boards, also a set of laundry tubs (I know from experience that laundry is one of the more difficult things to deal with when the power is off, if you aren't set up for it).

A hand pump for the well -- thankfully our well isn't very deep. This isn't installed, but I'm hoping to get that done in a few weeks when I'll have some help here.

What we DON'T have is a long-term means of heating the house if the power went off permanently. We have a kerosene heater that will work for intermittent outages, and I've got fifteen gallons of kerosene stored, but would rather be able to use that in our oil lamps. I'm starting to clear out and clean up the garage, which is frequently used as hay storage and sometimes as animal housing (newborn goats kids go in there, and right now, I have a broody hen with six chicks in a cage in the garage). It has a gravel floor and isn't insulated or finished on the inside, but it seems like the logical place to build a rocket stove so we'd have some place to go to get warm and to cook stuff.

I do have 'bug-out bags' but as others have said, it's unlikely that we'd ever need to use them for that. A more likely use is as 'get-home bags,' and really the only reason I can think of that we might need that is in case of an EMP strike -- that's being talked about, but who knows how likely it is to ever happen. On the other hand, the bags could turn out to be very useful in the event of any unexpected delay in getting home, no matter what the reason. Someone on another forum said they'd used theirs when a family member had an unexpected visit to the emergency room and then a stay in the hospital where the person didn't have time to run home and grab a change of clothes. Said the food and water in the bag came in handy, also. So it doesn't need to be the end of the world before one of those bags becomes useful....

Just like your stored food may be useful even if TEOTWAWKI hasn't happened yet -- I know several families who survived on their stored food when the family breadwinner lost his/her job for several months, or was disabled and the other family members were so busy caring for them that they couldn't go out and get a job. In some cases, the stored food made the difference between keeping and losing their home.

Kathleen

Daniel Zimmermann

Posts: 122

Location: Sacramento

posted 14 years ago

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The ultimate prep for most "survivalists" is an independent homestead away from the Big City. Homesteading implies a rural or semi-rural life and self sufficiency in as much as possible, meaning a little knowledge in every aspect, from firearms to auto repair to food growing to veterinarian medicine to.... you get the point. None of this is far from the permacultural ideal.

Previously known as "Antibubba".

John Sizemore

Posts: 97

Location: West Virginia/ Dominican Republic

posted 13 years ago

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IMHO a permaculture farming situation, while dependent on a few industrial inputs would still fare well in the end. By the time a place was set up with the swales for water collection and perennials were up and established then the need for outside input would be reduced or eliminated.
Sure the market garden portion of the farm might lose out however the ability to feed the household would not be dependent on industrial inputs. Also within a few months of a protracted crisis, the ability to use a pumpkin as a barter currency may be higher than imagined.
The use of chippers and so forth is not in itself a requirement for the operation but rather a means of quickly introducing fertility in the soil.
Raising potatoes using the Mollison method does not require tilling the soil. Growing squash can be down under a tree using a hand spade.
I am the first generation of my family to live on the grid. I have a hard time understanding the fear of off grid living. If a family is homesteading already and preserving food by canning, freezing and drying then they already have several months of food stored away.
If they have the ability to grow mushrooms then they can create a protein source from waste material in as little as four weeks to supplement the stored away food.
Organic material that is not edible can be transformed with worm farming to poultry feed. The first winter would be the hardest as the masses would be hurting and that is the crisis point. If someone had a variation of the Sepp Holtzer seed mix then a simple afternoon in any green space the spring after the collapse could feed a city the following winter.
So with some small level of planning and enough communication with like-minded people, the SHTF could be the new green revolution and a transition into a new economy. Twelve to twenty four months later the new economy will stabilize into a new social norm.
On bugging out for me it is not an issue like many areas. I am in the Appalachians where there is any number of relatives households with in a day or twos walking distance that I can hole up with. Every house here has a wood stove or other means of heating someplace in the house whether in use or not. Power outages always seem to come with sever snow.

I am the first generation of my family to grow up on the grid eating out of the super market. I hope to be the last.

Michael Newby

gardener

Posts: 697

Location: Mount Shasta, CA Zone 8a Mediterranean climate

152

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posted 13 years ago

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Kathleen Sanderson wrote:

A hand-cranked clothes wringer and a couple of scrub boards, also a set of laundry tubs (I know from experience that laundry is one of the more difficult things to deal with when the power is off, if you aren't set up for it).

Here's an easy solution to the laundry: 5 gallon bucket w/ lid, cut a hole in the lid that will fit a broomstick handle.

Fasten a small (2-3") cross piece on the bottom of the broom handle. Your washer is complete!

Just put clothes, water and soap of preference in the bucket, put the broom handle cross piece down in the bucket, slide the lid over the broom handle and fasten to the top, now mash that broom handle up and down like your churnin butter.

I have to admit I didn't come up with this idea, just found it somewhere on the web where I can't find it again...

"Instead of Pay It Forward I prefer Plant It Forward" ~Howard Story / "God has cared for these trees, saved them from drought, disease, avalanches, and a thousand tempests and floods. But he cannot save them from fools." ~John Muir

My Project Page

Posts: 5

posted 13 years ago

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I have to admit that I do have a "BOB" for my wife and children only.... I carry what is now being considered a "bug-in-bag" for the event that I may have trouble getting back home to the wife and kids. Now that bag contains the following: 2 pairs of pants, 2 shirts, 4 pairs of socks, 3 pairs of underwear, Simple medical supplies, an "all-in-one super tool", and interchangeable blade knife (3 different blades + a saw), sever lighters, water proof matches, 2 flashlights(1 handheld, one headlamp) a second pistol (first one never leaves my hip), ammo for both guns. And I think thats it... Now I know it sounds like a lot, but I will tell you that I have all that fit into a regular size back pack... Nothing fancy, I take this bag with me EVERY time I leave the house... Hope this helps.

John Polk

steward

Posts: 7926

Location: Currently in Lake Stevens, WA. Home in Spokane

350

posted 13 years ago

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Don't forget about your critters. If you don't have food and water for your critters, eggs and milk will cease flowing. In a SHTF situation, predator problems will also increase: your neighbors will quit feeding their dogs, who may now start looking at your chicken coop. Hell, your neighbors may become Gypsies themselves and start looking at your hens! You cannot have too much hay or straw, even in summer. (When gas gets up to $8-10, you may be reluctant to drive 40 miles to buy hay/straw.)

Always keep plenty of cash around the homestead: your ATM card will be useless while power is down.

A glass Pyrex measuring cup makes a perfect candle holder: It is fire proof, has a convenient carrying handle, won't obstruct the light, and protects it from wind, plus it will safely save any wax.

Tyler Ludens

pollinator

Posts: 11853

Location: Central Texas USA Latitude 30 Zone 8

1258

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posted 13 years ago

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John Polk wrote:
Hell, your neighbors may become Gypsies themselves and start looking at your hens!

This is why we should be prepared to help our neighbors raise their own food!

Idle dreamer

Terri Matthews

Posts: 529

Location: Eastern Kansas

posted 13 years ago

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Extra food in the cupboard, vegetables in the garden, fruit on the trees........

I will let the BIL of the OP manage on a can a day. I intend to do better than that.

To each their own!

Brenda Groth

pollinator

Posts: 4437

Location: North Central Michigan

posted 13 years ago

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i have a lot of wild food books that identify edibles in the wild, but also there is a good book I'm reading right now called Cornucopia that lists about every edible food in the world..and gives you ideas of how to eat them.

I'm finding you can eat a lot of what you throw away in your own garden, like the leaves and stems and flowers of almost all annual crops (not potatoes or tomatoes)..but things like peas, squash, melons, and even leaves of some trees, pits of some things like plums, seeds of a lot of plants..

i am taking extensive notes and plan to try some of these plants every year to make sure I know what ones i like to eat before there is an emergency and food isn't available.

most of your garden flowers are also edible ..at least parts of most.

Brenda

Bloom where you are planted.
http://restfultrailsfoodforestgarden.blogspot.com/

Posts: 114

Location: South Carolina Zone 8

posted 13 years ago

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Okay there is short term emergency survival and then there is long term survival.

The short term can be broken down into away from home such as lost in the woods, small airplane crash, etc and natural disasters (usually while at home or in a shelter). Both of these take some of the same skills and yet are vastly different. I am as prepared as I can be for the natural disaster survival being inland outside the evac zone but still in a hurricane zone. Surviving for a few days to a week (and longer I was without power during Hugo for 9 weeks) would be easy for me. I don't think much at all about surviving a natural disaster because it is simply a part of my life I could have to deal with any given year. In the event of an away from home survival situation I usually have a small kit as well as (in the situations I would be in) a gun for hunting or rods for fishing. Thankfully I have never had to use these things to survive but I have practice camped but there is a mental difference between practice when you know you can go home and reality and I will only know how well I will do when it happens (hopefully it never will).

I think though what this thread is more about is long term survival. To me this means beyond the time my canned and preserved foods run out. In this instance we are not talking survival but altering your lifestyle. In this I am as prepared as possible because I know how to grow my own veggies, raise my own animals,and even hunt and gather wild edibles (plant and animal). Having already lived for 9 weeks without electricity I know exactly how much we take it for granted and how little we actually need it to survive. The biggest thing as has been mentioned is safe drinking water. I like to make sure I have at least 2 sources of fresh water on or near my property and more is better. In this regard I have a deep well (not useful without power but working on a pump rig would give me something to keep my mind occupied while I and doing more mundane things), I have a large fishing pond, and the water table in this area is fairly high even mid summer and I have an old fashioned hand pump as well as pipe to sink a shallow well. Of course the water will need treated but simply having it available to treat is what is key.

I am very prepared for survival and have thought about things trying to ready myself for the eventuality I see coming. In other words folks the grid goes down, fuel runs out, and it all goes to pot I am prepared even more so because I also have the ability to protect and keep what I have which I feel you will find most important of all when it truly shuts down.

Kirk Mobert

pollinator

Posts: 172

Location: Point Arena, Ca

posted 13 years ago

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I agree with Peter K. here..
Short term survival isn't really the issue, short term survival is relatively easy.

For the long term, "survival" isn't good enough! What's needed is "thrive-al", to thrive during the permanent, SHTF scenario.
I think the key is community, people don't thrive doing it alone, the "rugged individualist" thing is all a myth. In my mind, no matter how ready you might be (or think you are), without a healthy community of people working together, your walking on thin ice. All you need is one mistake or accident, in a DIY permanent living situation, a broken leg or sprained ankle can snowball into death. Considering the blockaded shooter mentality, you find that there's always a faster draw, or a gang to face. AND, no matter HOW competent you might be, you just can't do it ALL effectively.
In my way of thinking, if yer not planning to THRIVE, yer planning for a short, miserable life alone.

The Amish seem to have this one worked out... Maybe a path in the right direction would be something like the Transition Town movement.
??

Build it yourself, make it small, occupy it.

Posts: 114

Location: South Carolina Zone 8

posted 13 years ago

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Donkey I agree it will take a community of individuals (and families) prepared to survive and thrive and by defend what I have I did not mean lone shooter with man traps guarding his property. What will happen is some folks with live and thrive by working together and others by a pack mentality. These could be roving gangs or even not so roving preying off others if they let them. Not to mention the simple facts that I feel there will be a rise in predator and nuisance animal populations (deer, raccoons, etc can be considered that to anyone growing crops) as human population goes down and under survival conditions we will no longer be king. I intend on not letting anything prey on me or my community and that too is a part of working together.

This whole discussion is a good but I feel a reminder is needed of how bad things can and will actually get if there is a meltdown and it all goes to hell. First off lots of people will die from simple things such as a small scratch. Without antibiotics there will be no way to treat infections (unless you are well versed in herbal remedies). Heck in short order many people will die simply from an allergic reaction to say a bee sting because of lack of things such as epinephrine. In other words folks when it happens there is going to be a mess because it will not take long before disease and famine reduce the population. The question is are you ready to survive and thrive or will you be a statistic. Personally I don't think many outside of those who have been in an area hit by a hurricane, earthquake, or other widespread natural disaster has a clue what to expect when the most basic modern services are cut off (for example no 911 for medical emergencies). Even survivors of such things only have an idea because when these things happen we have a government and nationwide, heck worldwide, community that shortly steps in and comes to the aid of others. When the big hammer falls this support will be cut off because everyone nationwide and perhaps worldwide will be dealing with it. Keep in mind help is not coming so are you ready when the only help you can expect to rebuild, survive and thrive is you and the individuals you may or may not know within WALKING distance of you?

I'm just a girl, standing in front of a boy, asking him view this tiny ad:

Special fundraiser JUST for the permaculture bootcamp!

https://permies.com/w/bel-fundraiser