Please reassure me - bindweed and thistles

Now I should love the thistle being my national Scottish emblem BUT it's totally invading the grass areas here in France making the grass almost no-go areas for our children.  The geese ain't keen on it either.  Nor are they keen on bindweed and that keeps on popping up in the veg patch as well.

I'm now trying to follow Paul Wheaton's lawn care regime for the cheap and lazy but I need some reassurance that by chopping off all the green bits by hand the plant will vanish ( I realise that other seeds may drift in).  I'm not scared of hard work but I just don't want to waste my time endlessly going round chopping off the tops (there are hundreds of them).

And what about hoeing in the veg patch?  Does it just chop up the root of the bindweed such that it laughs and goes on to make yet another plant.  It's choking everything in the way of good food.

Where I used to live, I had a hell of a problem with Canadian thistle.

Then I got goats.  And those goats had more goats.   

Anyway, the goat ate the thistle.  They ate it before it could go to seed and then they ate it down to the ground, eventually killing the plant itself.

It wasn't an overnight fix; in fact, the whole process took several years.  But by the time I moved from there, there was no thistle.  Not much else, either, including my fruit trees and rose bushes they managed to get into.   

Two bonus tips:


1)  You have kids!  Good!  If they get in trouble, tell them "you owe be a can full of thistles!  Get picking!"

2)  The tips in the article will help a lot, but not 100%.  So this will beat them 100%.  Break your lawn into ten zones, numbered 1 to 10.  One day, go an pull all the bindweed and thistle from zone 1.  You might think that on the second day you will go and pull the bindweed and thistles from zone 2, but you would be wrong.  Go and pull them from zone 1 again.  It should go much faster because you did such a thorough job yesterday.  THEN go to zone 2.  On day three, pull the thistle and bindweed from zone 1, then zone 2 and then zone 3.  ..... I've done this and it does work.  100%.

Ok Cinebar, I was thinking about goats anyway and this makes me even more keen.  But I think they'll wreck the orchard so...

Ok Paul, I hear what you're saying and my gloves are at the ready for the orchard.  One question - does this go on forever? Like every single day having to go out and pull thistles and bindweed, or do they give up in the end?

And the other unanswered question in my original post - what about hoe-ing in the veg patch?  Ok, I'm taking off the green top growth but am I just spreading the plant even further?

I tried getting a few thistles thistles out of my yard (I also wanted to eliminate them for barefoot playing).  I initially tried the 'chop them off' method and they just reappeared in great numbers nearby. After a bit of asking around I was informed that they are rhizomatous and that when you chop the top off it just sends a rhizome off a ways to try somewhere else. this appeared to fit what I was seeing in my yard.....  chop one.....3 more appear a few feet away. It was suggested to me that when I find a thistle to dig the whole bugger out of the ground making sure to get every bit of root so there was nothing left. that is the only thing that worked for me.

They give up in the end.

And I'll second:  goats and pigs will eat thistle.  I'm not sure about chickens.

And don't worry about the other weeds.  They are very easy to deal with.  Focus on bindweed and thistle.

Hoe-ing:  I haven't fired up a hoe since I was a kid.  If you use lots of mulch (and if you are not, we should talk) then very few weeds will pop up.  And most of those weeds will probably be beneficial to your garden and I would leave them.  But bindweed and thistle, I would pull.  And the pull easy in a well mulched garden.

As for Leah's method for digging it out:  When I pull from the garden, I usually get a fair bit of root too.  It just comes out when I pull.  But when I pull from the yard, I don't worry about the roots.

Ok I'll persevere.  There's someone in the background that wants wants to Glyphosate them 

The hoe-ing/mulch bit.  Well currently we don't have much to mulch with other than going out and buying stuff which is not where we want to be in this trying-to-be-as-self-sufficient-as-possible sort of situation.  We do have grass mowings but someone said they rob so much nitrogen out of the soil whilst they're breaking down that they're not such a great idea for the veg patch.  The soil is in crap condition anyway.  The old guy who lived in seemed keen on 'inputs' in the chemical form.  There's been none of those for 2 years now since we bought the place but it takes time to build up mulching materials.

I'm under the impression that grass clippings return nitrogen back to the soil (and air) while breaking down. The problems lies in that they tend to mat down and inhibit the flow of water and oxygen into the soil. They also tend to get hot from decomp if layered too thickly. Another thing about using your grass clippings in your garden, is that you're robbing your lawn of mulch and nutrients. While I'll occasionally harvest some grass to heat up the compost pile, I do so sparingly and rotate the areas that I utilize for this. I have a patch of cowpea and buckwheat mixed. I plan on using the straw for mulch and reseeding with the harvested seeds. Another idea is planting a winter wheat in your veggie beds. Mow it down prior to planting your veggies in the spring. If you let it go to seed, you can thresh it and have seed for next year. Or you can just spend more money on new seed. I have a 1/4 acre lot, so I have room for several beds. I can grow a grain/legume mix in one during the summer and rotate through the beds each year. Over winter I'm going to try growing winter varieties and see how that works. I don't know how much room you have, so you may need to modify that a bit. You can use the remains of any of your garden plants as mulch. Just make sure that a particular plant doesn't have properties that hinder the growth of seed or plants. Hope it helps.

That's brilliant info Jeremiah.  I was going to start doing some green manures this winter so that has just boosted my enthusiasm.

heninfrance wrote:
Ok I'll persevere.  There's someone in the background that wants wants to Glyphosate them 

Glyphosate will not kill these two.    Since glyphosate is generally so effective at killing all vegetation, a beginner would think that glyphosate would work - but the trick that glyphosate does will kill the plant back a little - but not kill it outright.

The technique I have described will be more effective than glyphosate.

I wonder if it would do any good to drive a digging bar or similar into their rhizomes.  Even if it didn't completely kill the plant, it might be easier on the back than bending over.

Apparently, bindweed doesn't like acid soil (http://westernfarmpress.com/mag/farming_product_drops_ph/).  Has anyone tried using biodegradeable acid, like vinegar or lactic acid?  I bet the kids would enjoy pouring the hooch from sourdough starter on the plants to see what it does to them.  Might it be worthwhile to try soil-acidifying plants nearby, especially ones that exude natural herbicides?

Lastly, have you considered growing something like alder to enrich your garden soil and produce mulch?

OK polyparadigm, enlighten me.  Alders? Do they enrich the soil just by being there?  Their mulch comes from coppicing???

We have LOADS of laurels and they grow like stink - blasted things.  The annoying thing is that the laurel hedge has got lots of small trees in it - things like oak and hornbeam - and I'm wondering if their progress is being hampered by the laurel??

Alders are not legumes, but have evolved root nodules that function similarly, to host nitrogen-fixing bacteria (alders use Frankia, legumes use Rhizobia, among other differences).  These are big nodules, up to fist-sized, and keep exuding nitrogen long after the tree dies.

Like other pioneers, they produce lots of seeds and grow quickly; like other plants with unusual access to nitrogen, they are unusually careless about dropping nutrient-rich tissue.  The male catkins are reputedly edible (not palatable, but edible...) to humans, and high in protein; these fall off yearly, as do the leaves, so you would get mulch even if you didn't coppice or prune.  Birds and mice also eat their seeds, bringing more soil enrichment to the table.  It might make sense to coppice with an extractive mindset, killing them off gradually as the soil improves.

I didn't realize you already had "LOADS of laurels [that] grow like stink - blasted things".  That sounds like a ready source of mulch to me!  Especially if you think thinning them would help your oak and hornbeam trees.   My suggestion to plant more weedy woody things seems silly now.

Do you suppose the laurel branches in question are narrow enough to go on your garden beds directly, or would the thick stuff need to spend some time rotting on garden paths first?  I sometimes run a knife down a branch a few times before cutting it off, as a more ergonomical way of separating the fine mulch from the coarse mulch.  And as regards very coarse mulch, I'd suggest Paul's article on hugelkultur if you haven't read it already.

polyparadigm wrote:
I wonder if it would do any good to drive a digging bar or similar into their rhizomes.  Even if it didn't completely kill the plant, it might be easier on the back than bending over.

Rhizomes are underground.  Hard to hit without being able to see them.  Plus, their rhizomes can run mighty deep.

Apparently, bindweed doesn't like acid soil

Bindweed runs rampant around here and the typical ph is less than 6! 

paul wheaton wrote:

Bindweed runs rampant around here and the typical ph is less than 6!

Yowza.  The article I linked to doesn't say how far the pH was lowered, and it does talk about a bare patch afterward, so maybe it needs to be unreasonably low (I bet pH of 1 would do the trick!), or maybe acid just helps roundup to penetrate this particular plant.

Good to know, in any event.

Vinegar will probably work to kill bindweed, as we use it for a weed-killer in the driveway (gravel driveway).  But in my experience, bindweed, once established, covers so much territory that you'd probably have to soak the entire yard to get rid of it (and then it would probably still come back in a year or so!).  Bindweed is a much worse pest than thistle, IMO, at least as far as gardening is concerned.  My goats will eat it, and so will the chickens, but only small quantities, so that's only a partial solution.  And we have an entire acre heavily infested with bindweed, so pulling it is going to be a very slow solution!

Kathleen

I suspect that vinegar might defoliate some of the bindweed, but it won't kill the whole plant. 

And while vinegar might work against most plants, I think for bindweed, pulling will be far more effective. 

And ... I would like to say that I think vinegar is something I would generally avoid.  It seems like it is a good stepping stone for folks to move away from glyphosate.  I think the next stepping stone is to keep in mind that pouring acid on your soil (which is what vinegar is) isn't really good for the rest of the soil organisms.  Better ways would be to plant things that would outcompete the problem plants - or bring in something that would graze the problem plants. 

there is a really great tool called a weedhound that you might be able to locate and buy online..it has 4 nails sticking out of the bottom and you can use it to easily pull out any plant that has a taproot..like thistle, dandilion..etc.

it won't damage the rest of the property..and works like a charm..i love mine.

as for the bindweed..you gotta get ALL of the root..and really keep after it..it will come back from the slightests bit of root left in the soil

Unfortunately, my bindweed is in many beds, and even if digging deep enough to get every piece of root were feasible, it is coming in from privage property beyond my borders.  I'll continue to pry it up, but am going to try this technique, using the wads of roots to carry the diluted glysophate as far into the plant as possible.... maybe to crown of the plant?  I can dream!   But, I hope at least to knock it back farther and farther from year to year.

paul wheaton wrote:
  Better ways would be to plant things that would outcompete the problem plants. 

I actually took some photos today to demonstrate how this works but it seems I'm too dumb to get them on here. The pictures show the effectivnes of garlic and curants as weed control in a large raspberry patch. Some areas growing with garlic are virtualy weed free and I havent pulled a weed or mulched in over 3 years.

BDAFJeff wrote:
I actually took some photos today to demonstrate how this works but it seems I'm too dumb to get them on here. The pictures show the effectivnes of garlic and curants as weed control in a large raspberry patch. Some areas growing with garlic are virtualy weed free and I havent pulled a weed or mulched in over 3 years.

Ohhh how exciting, garlic as a weed deterrent.  Tell me more. 

And hey, I know what you mean about the photos - I've not had the time to learn how to do it either.

Jeff, do/did you have bindweed? It seems to be in a different catagory from 'normal' weeds, and the probably the only thing I'd poison.
My neighbours have it on the far side of their place and it makes me very nervous. I've asked if I may go over and poison it.
People think I'm nuts wanting to manage someone else's weeds, but the stuff has no respect for fences!

Leila wrote:
Jeff, do/did you have bindweed? It seems to be in a different catagory from 'normal' weeds, and the probably the only thing I'd poison.
My neighbours have it on the far side of their place and it makes me very nervous. I've asked if I may go over and poison it.
People think I'm nuts wanting to manage someone else's weeds, but the stuff has no respect for fences!

Yes I did have bind weed and I still do in paches but the paches with garlic have no weeds. Just raspberries and garlic. In the garden I'm talking about here I  curantly have currants, raspberries, chives, leeks, garlic, jeruselem artichoke, mint, potatos, rhubarb, comfrey and some annuals. The main problem is that there's a patch of this and a patch of that, what I need to do is mix it all up a bit more and then I'm sure my weed problem will be gone. What is a weed any way why can't scarlet runner beans be weeds they're just like bind weed only you can eat them. I plant alot of them in my raspberries they're the new bind weed if you ask me. Don't be afraid to work up a small patch but when you do don't just plant 1 plant, plant like 10 different ones. Here's what I do . I plant pots with anuals and perennials mixed up, so next year rather than having weeds where the annual was I have leeks or mint ect. Oh I almost forgot "Pig weed" (chenapodium) is easy to pull and you can eat it boiled or raw. I recomend letting it go to seed so that next year it will be the main weed. When its about a foot high you can pull up tons of it and eat it or just throw it right there not as good as no weeds but better than bindweed. IMO "chenopodium guasuntle" is'nt a weed at all it's one of my favorit crops as fodder and for people too. It also holds up beans.

Excuse me for hijacking Alison, but Jeff's bindweed experiences look really useful to me as well.
I've got tons of walking onions I could plant along my fence to try and put the bindweed off from coming under.
The area's already my permanent insect patch, and it would be great if it also acted as a bindweed barrier!

Onions are shade tolorent so if you put larger plants with onions under them the onions will get a head start on the larger plants in the spring. Onions alone will not compete with weeds, but if you plant a thickly spaced mixed pach of scarlet runner beans currants and onions or something along thoughs lines then you will have better weed control. 

So the 'currants' bit is like red currant, black currant bushes etc?  And they are perennial.  Do the runner beans use the currants as frames?  If so, don't they swamp the currant bush?

Yes they will pull the branches down a bit but the currant will survive also when the currants are ripe the beans probably woult be too big yet. My gardens are not very asteticly pleasing, if that's what your trying to get at. Growing a garden like mine in the city is not likely to sit well with the "working class heros" next door, unless you have a tall fence.

To me, 'swamp' refers to  plant 'b' overwhelming plant 'a' to plant 'a''s detriment.
I made the mistake of planting runner beans up a too-young plum tree. Seemed like a nice trellis at the time!
In the future, scrambling things will only get to scramble over relatively mature plants!

Guess what Ayurvedic practitioner Todd Caldecott says about Bindweed (Convolvulus arvensis)??

In the "Himalayan" Tradition of Ayurveda, this is the plant that they also call Ashwagandha!!  If you look up this herb in Ayurvedic texts, you will discover it is an amazing healing herb!!  It is especially helpful for what Ayurveda calls "Vata" Dashas, and many who live in MT could suffer those conditions, since it is cold and dry here.  Use the ROOT medicinally.

http://www.toddcaldecott.com/index.php/herbs/learning-herbs/395-ashwagandha

if you have problems with thistle means usualy land is degraded by grazing of sheep and goats. with years they eat good plants and avoid bad, this helps plants like thistle to grow and spread without being bothered. i take them out with root whenever i see them. guess it works in the end.
for convolvulus - same case, its poisonous, animals avoid it, but i dont see it as problem, its not big plant and doesnt take much from soil. also covers soil so better this than nothing on top and soil goes dry in few days.

You know, I've heard before that bindweed is poisonous, but my goats like it, and I've never seen any sign of ill effects from them eating it?  They were starting to eat thistle, too, when I had to go back to dry-lotting because our other forage was gone. 

But as for bindweed being harmless in the garden, I disagree, at least here.  It's fairly harmless in the areas that I don't water, but any ground that gets watered gets absolutely drowned in bindweed.  It's hard to keep up with it (short kudzu, lol!).

Kathleen

goats can eat pretty much anything. plants that can easily kill us like belladona goats eat without problem.
thistle i didnt notice goats eat, probably they dont if they have enough of better food.
you can extinguish bindweed after harvest. cut off roots and cover with something like cardboard untill spring. after 2 or 3 years will probably work.

Ashwagandha is not bindweed.

I have both in my garden. Unfortunately, the ashwagandha, while surviving, is not thriving.
Wish I could say the same about bindweed.

Here is a pic of ashwagandha
http://www.mskcc.org/mskcc/_assets/content-image/304764.gif

http://www.helpfulhealthtips.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/ashwagandha.jpg

astroherbalist wrote:
Guess what Ayurvedic practitioner Todd Caldecott says about Bindweed (Convolvulus arvensis)??

In the "Himalayan" Tradition of Ayurveda, this is the plant that they also call Ashwagandha!!  If you look up this herb in Ayurvedic texts, you will discover it is an amazing healing herb!!  It is especially helpful for what Ayurveda calls "Vata" Dashas, and many who live in MT could suffer those conditions, since it is cold and dry here.  Use the ROOT medicinally.

http://www.toddcaldecott.com/index.php/herbs/learning-herbs/395-ashwagandha

You are right, they are different plants.  Field Bindweed is the Ashwaganda of the Himalayan tradition of Ayurveda, not the usual (Southern India) tradition.  I am sorry that wasn't clear from either my post or from Todd Caldecott's website entry on this topic.