• Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
permaculture forums growies critters building homesteading energy monies kitchen purity ungarbage community wilderness fiber arts art permaculture artisans regional education skip experiences global resources cider press projects digital market permies.com pie forums private forums all forums
this forum made possible by our volunteer staff, including ...
master stewards:
  • Anne Miller
  • Pearl Sutton
  • r ranson
  • paul wheaton
stewards:
  • Leigh Tate
  • jordan barton
  • Greg Martin
master gardeners:
  • Carla Burke
  • John F Dean
  • Jay Angler
  • Nancy Reading
gardeners:
  • Beau Davidson
  • thomas rubino
  • L. Johnson

Renting or buying woodland

 
gardener
Posts: 1495
Location: Hudson Valley, New York
802
trees bike woodworking
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I’m in Mid Hudson, NY, close enough to NYC that land prices are crazy high. (When I look on Zillow the price for an acre without a house isn’t much different from an acre with a house.).

Is there land available that can’t be built on and therefore cheaper? If so, how do I find the listings? Searching just brings up Zillow etc or place called Forest VA or Woodlands CA etc.

Do people rent woodland? What I’d really like is a woodland I can manage, harvest lumber, grow mushrooms . . .etc. (This is a total pipe dream)
 
Posts: 1
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I'm in Alabama and there are plenty of rural woodlands, pastures, etc. that are rented out all the time. You can try farm listings as well. Are you interested only in the mid Hudson area? I know there are quite a few old, former camps in the areas around the catskills. Good luck on your search!
PS if you're into saw milling there are some great units on trailers such as the Norwood or woodland mills line.
 
gardener
Posts: 4752
Location: Southern Illinois
1078
transportation cat dog fungi trees building writing rocket stoves woodworking
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Edward,

I wish I had news for you, but you know your real estate market better than I do.  In my area, the southern most tip of Illinois, empty land can go for 5k-6k per acre.  My area is pretty rural, 90 miles from St. Louis, and has a fair amount of poverty.  So in my mind, that is expensive, but I am sure it is cheap to you.  I don’t really know the prices you are looking at, but I am starting to get an idea.

I don’t suppose moving is an option is it?  And by moving I mean well outside of anything influenced by NYC.  It’s probably a reach, but really rural areas are probably the only places you can find the land you are looking for.  I could be mistaken though, again, you know your area much better than me.

Eric
 
master gardener
Posts: 4632
Location: southern Illinois, USA
1495
goat cat dog chicken composting toilet food preservation pig bee solar wood heat homestead
  • Likes 3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Of course, much depends on your definition of outrageous.   What you are seeking appears to be pretty basic. The big question is how much  lumber  do you wish to harvest?   I would suggest that you keep your eyes open regarding land and farmers in your area.  If you locate a spot, ask the owner about renting it.   Expect to be turned down. Do leave contact information.

I doubt if anyone with wooded land will rent to you so you can clear cut their woods.   But if you are offering added income for property that is not otherwise being used, it might work if  the cutting of trees is limited.   I picked up 5 acres adjoining mine from a farmer who everyone told me would never sell to me.   The property was wooded ….so it wasn’t being farmed ….he had a grand daughter getting married ….so it was a reasonable source of fast cash for him.   I had told him I was interested maybe two years earlier. I told him to name his price …I would not try to lower it. I would simply say yes or no. One day he showed up at my door with a very reasonable offer.
 
Edward Norton
gardener
Posts: 1495
Location: Hudson Valley, New York
802
trees bike woodworking
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
So here’s my reality.
1.2 acres on a very busy state road : $125k
0.65 acres with a stream : $55k
0.42 acres on a busy road : $75k

So all priced with the assumption that you’d build a house.

As for moving . . . I’ve just moved from NJ commuter belt. Technically, still NYC commuter land with a 90 minute train to Grand Central, which is where my wife works.

Ideally, I’d like something with in half an hour bike ride from home. (Told you I was dreaming).

I’m not interested in clear cutting for commercial gain. I’d like to harvest green wood for domestic projects. Clear some space for a fruit forest. Turn dead wood into mushrooms or firewood. Mostly leave as is - zone five.

I’ve built a good relationship with the farmers at my local CSA, so I’ll start a conversation with them. I think this is going to be a word of mouth solution.

Southern edge of Catskills is half an hour by car but prices are nuts since Covid.
 
John F Dean
master gardener
Posts: 4632
Location: southern Illinois, USA
1495
goat cat dog chicken composting toilet food preservation pig bee solar wood heat homestead
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Hi Ed,

At those prices, you are going to really want to garden badly.  But,  the land I am suggesting, is not for sale. The owner is not presently interested.   You would be trying to sell yourself ….   And provide an unexpected source of rental income.  Of course, another option is to look for a community garden in your area.


And yes. you understand, this is a word of mouth issue.  

Another thought. I have long worked off the theory that most retired people could use some added income. Do you know any retired folks with a large yard?
 
pollinator
Posts: 864
Location: Porter, Indiana
115
trees
  • Likes 3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I've been looking for land in the Chicago suburbs, and last year I tried attending a tax sale. It turns out that there is a lot of land people consider to be garbage, and they don't pay their taxes on that land. You don't care if it's un-buildable, or a weird shape so there's a good chance there's something you'll like. One downside is how long the process takes. I "won" a property last October,  but the current owners have until this October before I can get the deed to the property. Each state is different, so the timeline in New York may be different than Indiana.
 
Eric Hanson
gardener
Posts: 4752
Location: Southern Illinois
1078
transportation cat dog fungi trees building writing rocket stoves woodworking
  • Likes 3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I grew up in Central Illinois (nowhere near NYC) where subdivided lots frequently went for about $25k in the 90’s.  I don’t know what they go for now but the prices you mentioned don’t seem outrageous for residential lots.

My guess is that you will need to find and outside of residential areas to find the prices you want.  I am sorry if this takes you out of the area you were looking for, but keep your eyes open, maybe something will pop up.

Eric
 
John Wolfram
pollinator
Posts: 864
Location: Porter, Indiana
115
trees
  • Likes 4
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Following up on my last post, here is an example of a property I might bid on this year at the county's tax sale if I loose out on the property I won last year (i.e., if the current owner pays all back taxes, my attorney fees, and an extra 15%).

In this example, the property shown below is a 3.5 acre detention pond that's about about a 10-15 minute drive from me. As a detention pond, it fills up during heavy rains and then drains pretty quickly. Based on the contours map, it looks like about 10-20% of the property wouldn't flood. To most people this property would be completely worthless, and I doubt anyone else would bid the $5,700 owed on this property, but I'm envisioning flood tolerant trees (pawpaws probably) in the lower area and an assortment of other fruit trees in the areas that don't flood.
Detention-Pond.jpg
Potential Property
Potential Property
Contours.jpg
Contours map
Contours map
 
master pollinator
Posts: 637
Location: Western MA, zone 6b
335
cat dog forest garden foraging urban food preservation
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Oh, I love looking at the potential in land that others would pass up and believe to be undesireable.  I hope you get it so I can follow posts on what you DO with it!  
 
pollinator
Posts: 1871
Location: Massachusetts, 5a, flat 4 acres; 40" year-round fairly even
212
4
kids purity trees urban writing
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Edward Norton wrote:I’m in Mid Hudson, NY, close enough to NYC that land prices are crazy high. (When I look on Zillow the price for an acre without a house isn’t much different from an acre with a house.).

Is there land available that can’t be built on and therefore cheaper? If so, how do I find the listings? Searching just brings up Zillow etc or place called Forest VA or Woodlands CA etc.

Do people rent woodland? What I’d really like is a woodland I can manage, harvest lumber, grow mushrooms . . .etc. (This is a total pipe dream)


I would write a generic business plan, just half a page, and split profits with someone.  In my real estate search I found many people hold onto woods for decades, partly for privacy and quiet, partly for conservation, partly for investment, partly because they can’t agree as a family what to do with it.  

If you want to discuss on the phone I’m heading out for a chore and I’ll purple mooseage my number.
 
John Wolfram
pollinator
Posts: 864
Location: Porter, Indiana
115
trees
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Here is the tax sale list for Dutchess County, NY coming up in October:
http://test1.dutchessny.gov/Departments/Finance/real-estate-tax-auction.htm

The 10 acres on Noxon Rd looks about perfect for what you're interested in. It's wooded, there is a stream running through the middle so it's likely un-buidlable, and there is easy road access.
https://gis.dutchessny.gov/parcelaccess/parcelaccess_map.htm
 
pioneer
Posts: 95
Location: Barre, MA and Silistra, Bulgaria
16
kids foraging bee
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Hey, Edward.  I have a 300 acre farm in central MA with quite a lot of woodland.  I am currently offering a landshare/lease for folks who want to have a go at permie farming for 3-5 years.  I operate in a gift economy, so I'm open to all kinds of arrangments.  For years, I've offered grazing for grass fed beeves in exchange for haymaking and meat.  I have another fella interested in taking over that arrangement.  I have a gal interested in a duck operation.  Everyone is going to have to work together so that their operations serve one another and mine.  Should be a fun experiment.

You can PM me if this sounds like something you might be interested in.  You'd have to bring your own tiny house, or find a home in the village to buy/rent.  Heck, you might find something you like here anyway. :)

Cheers!
 
Edward Norton
gardener
Posts: 1495
Location: Hudson Valley, New York
802
trees bike woodworking
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Joshua Myrvaagnes wrote:I would write a generic business plan, just half a page, and split profits with someone.  In my real estate search I found many people hold onto woods for decades, partly for privacy and quiet, partly for conservation, partly for investment, partly because they can’t agree as a family what to do with it.  

If you want to discuss on the phone I’m heading out for a chore and I’ll purple mooseage my number.



Thanks for the kind offer - I’m a long way off doing anything yet!
 
Edward Norton
gardener
Posts: 1495
Location: Hudson Valley, New York
802
trees bike woodworking
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
So this was a total pipe dream and when my wife caught onto what I was doing . . . Got a gentle reminder of the Money pit period property I’m supposed to renovating, the large mortgage we’ve just taken out and the son we’re partially financing through college.

I have spent four long sweaty months toiling inside. In the last few weeks, I got to play out side, moving chip, bucking logs, building a temporary workshop and I was happy with my 0.1 acres of urban dirt. I don’t mind renovating, it’s my 9 to 5 and justification for not going back to work. Long term though, I want to be outside and making stuff. Which is why I went down this rabbit hole.

John Wolfram wrote:
The 10 acres on Noxon Rd looks about perfect for what you're interested in. It's wooded, there is a stream running through the middle so it's likely un-buidlable, and there is easy road access.



Those links are great. That piece of land . . . Amazing. You missed out that it’s also bikeable - it’s on the Hudson Valley Rail Trail which is part of the long distance route from NYC to Buffalo and Montreal opened recently: Empire Trail I have cycled and hiked right past that parcel. It’s about 45 minutes by bike from where I live but only half of that is on roads, the rest is along the trail.

Folks are absolutely right about what looks good for permies and looks rubbish for anyone else. That land has so much potential.

Nissa Gadbois wrote:Hey, Edward.  I have a 300 acre farm in central MA with quite a lot of woodland.  I am currently offering a landshare/lease for folks who want to have a go at permie farming for 3-5 years.  I operate in a gift economy, so I'm open to all kinds of arrangments.  For years, I've offered grazing for grass fed beeves in exchange for haymaking and meat.  I have another fella interested in taking over that arrangement.  I have a gal interested in a duck operation.  Everyone is going to have to work together so that their operations serve one another and mine.  Should be a fun experiment.

You can PM me if this sounds like something you might be interested in.  You'd have to bring your own tiny house, or find a home in the village to buy/rent.  Heck, you might find something you like here anyway. :)

Cheers!



Nissa - that’s wonderful what you’re doing. I have permission to down tools and join you in December for your Urban PDC so lets talk then. I think you’re about a three hour drive from here.

I really should put this to the back of my mind for a couple of years and start saving.
 
On my planet I'm considered quite beautiful. Thanks to the poetry in this tiny ad:
Permaculture Playing Cards Poster now available!
https://permies.com/t/177901/Permaculture-Playing-Cards-Poster
reply
    Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic