"Water to "see" what grows/weeds, and fertility?"strange advice -need feedback/rehab soil plants

Daniel Schmidt wrote:Instead of fighting a losing battle I can save my money for better goals. I don't want to keep dumping money into something because 'I have already invested too much to lose', sometimes the learning experience is worth the cost. I want to expand on successes now and I can revisit my failures when I have more knowledge to tackle them.

Tyler Ludens wrote:I can't recommend highly enough "Rainwater Harvesting for Drylands Volume 2" by Brad Lancaster.

Daniel Schmidt wrote:I understand being buried under a mountain of information. It can be important to remember that you can't learn it all. I think it was Emeril Lagasse that said he could spend his whole life cooking and still not learn 10% of what there is to know about it. Not that it stops me from learning, but I can only know so much. Most of my knowledge is with other areas such as construction and alternative energy. I started growing native trees before I started gardening. Of course my beach trees getting 5 feet of rain a year at about 10' above sea level is quite different from your area.

I'm not completely sure what nitrogen fixing trees would be best for your climate. I have been looking up several of them and not seeing clear information of climate range. I would think just about any that you can get cheaply that aren't wildly invasive would get some roots in the ground and build soil. The catalog from that 'Plants of the Southwest' place would probably be most useful. The people there could also be helpful with identifying your native plants that start to pop up. Bring them some pictures and ask for help. I really wish I knew enough about my local weeds to be able to say 'that growing there means the soil is alkaline/acidic/compacted' and so on. Even if I did, it much of it would only be useful only in my region.

Me either, other than some of the more "obvious" ones. That being said, (and perhaps lighting the fire under me today) I purchased "Trees for gardens, orchards, and Permaculture" by Martin Crawford
author's link here: http://permanentpublications.co.uk/port/trees-for-gardens-orchards-permaculture-by-martin-crawford/

and from the first 30 minute skim, to my pleasure, I have noticed a few areas that talk about species that will play nice with the arid/lack of water/soil here.

I bought "Growing Food in the Southwest Mountains: a guide to high altitude, semi-arid home permaculture gardens" by Lisa Rayner (great book, very detailed, focuses somewhat intensely (and I understand she lives there) on her slightly differing climate of Flagstaff, Az, (and wish a little more was said on the variances that occur, say, for my climate-but I am learning ALOT and I recommend the book regardless)

She talks about trees, (I mean, I'm preaching to the choir here, Permaculture loves trees/shrubs! I am sure it is equally an issue in every climate zone/mircoclimate, it isn't a given, even if at the same elevation, that one nitrogen fixer is going to "work"/like living there- I like the advice on using my eyes and doing some homework to see what is happening around me already, or even in the immediate area. This requires me to get out that great "Plants of the Southwest" color catalog, and perhaps a horticulture of the Southwest encyclopedia and walk/drive/wander around.
I know I need to do this more than I have. but yes, the mountains of info, or even the 25+ books I have read portions of, but not finished, can get a little overwhelming, and there is something to be said about getting some personalized, general advice. (that was my intention, but I am totally fine with hunkering down and putting on my student of the land hat/nose in a book for hours)


"I would look into the work Geoff Lawton has done. If you haven't already checked it out, he has an amazing series of videos at geofflawton.com. Of course now I can't remember if it was there or on YouTube where I saw it, but he talks about starting out with 90% nitrogen fixing trees and 10% fruit, nut, and other trees. After they get established you start to chop and drop or lose some trees, either way you will be releasing nitrogen and carbon into the soil from the tree roots. The same with bushes or any other nitrogen fixing plants. They create the habitat and over time the percentages should reverse so you end up with 10% nitrogen fixing trees and the rest will be fruit, nut, and other (hopefully some native) trees. He also talks a lot about using fungi that take up toxic gick to create long chain carbon molecules which render them inert. The whole toxic gick factor is really problematic. Perhaps trying to seek out the spaces with the least harm done to them, and growing over top of them, as opposed to digging in to the soil, can get you started. Maybe raised beds made with plain untreated wood would give you several seasons of growing herbs and annuals. Mulching and creating good fungal habitats could possibly mitigate some of the harder hit areas. Lab testing sounds like a great idea."

I have been watching, buying, and experiencing a lot of what Mr. Lawton shares. I think he's great, and though it is not on point with this subject exactly-(and not to veer off) but I do admire his commitment to implementing Permaculture in areas of conflict and true suffering. Kind of the best of both worlds, you're putting in a system that works, and can be proven by Positivism (which is very powerful) yet you're giving people who have had everything taken away, and very little chance without some intervention (possibly due to nefarious intervention(s) like armed conflict) a chance.


Fungi, in the southwest, is kind of flummoxing. The lack thereof, (generally) was one of the reasons why I managed to convince my non-permie, (but certainly conscious, interested, and supportive) husband to move from the urban jungle to rural NM was that he has Asthma, and a lot of allergies, and the lack of molds/dryness he thinks is great. That being said, I see Lichen and moss even on my property on dead wood, and other evidence of fungi here and there-so I know with some research, I can find some fungi friends that will be into helping me out and hanging out on my land. I did contemplate approaching a couple I read about who sell their fabulous fungi (some very fancy varieties) at the Santa Fe farmers market, and live south of Santa Fe, what they thought, though from reading about their cottage industry/farmstead it seems like this was a major intervention and infrastructure, not something they just encouraged on their land naturally. I will update if I do this.


Don't get too attached to the idea of forcing a particular plant to work. If you have consistent success with some and not with others, then maybe they weren't meant to be there. Here in Florida everyone wants a citrus tree. Unfortunately there is an invasive insect here with bacteria that slowly kills citrus. I can see them dying all over and new ones for sale all over. It's quite the racket they have going selling expensive trees with no hope of long term survival. I lost $50 before figuring out the problem. I got other trees like figs and pomegranates for much cheaper and they are doing awesome right now. I came to similar conclusions in my garden. Instead of fighting a losing battle I can save my money for better goals. I don't want to keep dumping money into something because 'I have already invested too much to lose', sometimes the learning experience is worth the cost. I want to expand on successes now and I can revisit my failures when I have more knowledge to tackle them.

Tyler Ludens wrote:I can't recommend highly enough "Rainwater Harvesting for Drylands Volume 2" by Brad Lancaster. Storing rain in the soil is the most important thing in the Southwest, and rainwater harvesting earthworks need to be in place before it makes any sense to try to improve the soil. It took me a long time to learn this, the hard way.

There's also a lot of free information on Brad's website: http://www.harvestingrainwater.com/

Joseph Lofthouse wrote:

Tyler Ludens wrote:I can't recommend highly enough "Rainwater Harvesting for Drylands Volume 2" by Brad Lancaster.

Me too. The thing I missed when I first started out was the recommendation to "do small things first". Simple things that can be done in a moment, like turning a fallen log or twig to lay on contour. That way it can capture water, soil, and plant matter that might otherwise wash away. Or throwing the prunings from trees into a ravine instead of into a hugelculture. Let the ecosystem do the labor of burying the wood. It already dug the hole... Slightly harder things that take a few minutes: Like making a check dam with a bed of rocks a single layer deep. Building small little bunds just tall enough to redirect water to where it might be more useful.

Joseph Lofthouse wrote:In my experience, it takes about 3 growing seasons for a field to return to normal productivity after being treated with glyphosate.

S Bengi wrote:I would 'clear cut' strips into the lawn and plant some nitrogen fixing grass/shurb.
Then the following year I would clear cut another strip and plant some 1) mint/thyme family, 2)onion family, 3)carrot family.
Then final strip I would plant my 'productive fruit and nut trees'.

S Bengi wrote:The mint family includes: lavender, thyme, rosemary, oregano, winter savory, marjoran, hyssop, catnip, lemon balm, (basil and summer savory), etc
It is a huge family and you can pick and choose, which one you want. I enjoy using mint as chop and drop mulch. And if nothing else will grow without irrigation I would welcome mint, there are also specific cultivars, that grows slowly.

Jo East wrote:Been implementing perm ideas on our acreage in the Manzanos for twelve years. Made every mistake in the book. My advice--start with the soil. Mine was/is pretty alkaline, devoid of organic matter, overgrazed for hundreds of years. The central 15 acres was meadow, a vast plain of bare soil, scoured by the wind, rock hard clay, sporting a few tussocked blades of grama. I thought it would take a lifetime to bring it back. We started laying wood on the ground and covering it with chips. We put in swales, chip basins, straw, tons of manure. If it rotted, it got spread. I planted natives, and put in seed, but where the soil had not been improved, the planting failed. Plants that survived are half the size of plants put in much later in improved soil. Mulch is crucial. At our altitude, the soil takes longer to warm, another reason it can take years to establish roots. Wind is a killer. Take advantage of microclimates. Watch out for critters--pocket gophers, rabbits, and ground squirrels can be devastating. Had my fruit trees girdled the last two years in a row--inside the fenced garden. Regrafting again...

Worst weeds to stay on top of--bindweed, horse nettle, thistle, kochia, goat head, dock, Siberian elm. The devil to get rid of when they're established.

With all that being said--we're making progress. Wrested enough from the critters last year to do some canning. The herb garden is coming along. Have a nice ornamental garden, mostly natives. Even some roses. I start a lot from seed, hoping that plants grown at altitude will do better that ones brought up from abq. Every 1000 ft up is a another zone.

Plants of the Southwest is a wonderful resource, but keep in mind that abq is a concrete heat island. I see zone 7 & 8 plants growing there, so not everything at the nursery will be suitable. Despite what the revised heat maps say, I buy for zone 4 unless I know the plant transcends the recommended zones. Irrigation gets better as roots go deep, but this can take years. Even drought tolerant natives must be irrigated in the first years.

I'd put in the biggest water catchment you can afford if you're serious about planting. We have about nine thousand gallons. We have a good well, but when the wind don't blow... The Soil &Water conservation District here matched our investment. State forrestry has some great programs too. Good place to get lots of seedlings. The extension service is a wonderful resource. Both abq & Santa Fe have nice botanical gardens that will give you good ideas for local plant material.
Could go on, but don't get overwhelmed. One foot in front of the other. >>


Thanks for your thoughts, and experience(s)- It sounds like we are in the same Boat...err trench....... Due to the epic rains here in Northern New Mexico, we have a plague like grasshopper infestation. I am awaiting my Semosphore, and other OMRI listed treatments, as the growing season hasn't really gotten into full "swing", and they are everywhere, and insane. (Also beginning to eat everything, despite following various protocols (including clearing stretches of land down to dirt to "stop them in their tracks" from migrating to another area.

I have been a bit 'mum' on Permies the past month (miss it!) mainly because I got an amazing opportunity to intern for Flowering Tree Permaculture. I spend the other days, working on my land, and working ( I am an antiques/vintage dealer online) so pretty pooped out. I am excited to share things that I have been learning from Roxanne Swentzell, not only are we doing an earth building project with Adobe, but we planted one of her fields with Amaranth, traditional Pueblo red corn, beens, squash, and sunflowers. It is mostly going to be a gorgeous sea of RED!.

I did get totally overwhelmed at my place, and am trying to stick to the "Zone 1 first" approach to getting things into shape. Luckily, I have met some amazing people, who are educating me on various aspects of permaculture and orchard-keeping, as I slowly chip away at getting things.... better.

I am so, on the catchment- It was down pouring the other day, and I was going on and on to my husband "Look at all this WATER, we could save this Water!" and he agreed, that we are going to put those in before summer's end (hopefully sooner) I also am trying to do research on Greywater systems, I bought a few books, but one was way too "plumber" for novice me- I am a bit scared to contact a fellow in Santa Fe who does permaculture, but also greywater, as I read a couple reviews online that his fees were astronomical. Anyone have any greywater "hacks"- (or is this just a really bad idea?) I live in a very old Adobe, and the plumbing and well systems (etc) seem to be pretty basic and easy to navigate- (that is if you have the expertise) I am wondering if I could get a contractor or local plumber to install a system of sorts for me-if I had the correct info, or guides.

I'm happy to hear that you HAVE a meadow, and wildflowers, and they are self seeded.

I am definitely really going hardcore, and I have made a lot of progress, though the 16 hour days (alone, my husband is not a premie-he's supportive though and nice) Roxanne, after a day in the fields with Flowering Tree, reminded me that her homesite, at the stage it is now, (It looks like a lush rainforest in the midst of brown mesa/desert scrub) totally wild (and beautiful) and shows you what you can do! However, she said gently that her oasis- is a 35 year work in progress-gently reminding me to not burn out......
okay back to sheet mulching.


I am persistant, but I have already realized, that you do have to "live" with your land a bit. I had read pretty much every book on "high desert gardening" etc out there, and tons of blogs, articles-so I knew that gardening in Northern NM is hard, and often really frustrating. I have had so many hilariously awful experiences (my entire seedling collection almost ready to plant.....blows away when we get a freak 45 mph wind storm, etc etc) I am journaling, and I hope to put some of these thoughts down. If only, to commiserate with others, who are .......trying!
that's the most important thing- and though it might sound kinda corny, when I finally saw some of the "Orchard/Farm Mix" seed from Plants of the Southwest peak out from the sea of brown........I was filled with joy.


one foot in front of the other,

Jo East wrote:Semasphore works well esp in early spring to get the babies hatching. The bigger they get, the less effective it is. Daughter in abq put it out early, but held some back. Should have spread it all. Next door too. Good years, bad years-- but it's always something. Aphids were horrendous this spring, greenhouse nightmare! But hit my fruit trees too, tho don't usually get on anything but roses outside.

Forgot what I was going to say-- grey water. If you have the space, just run it out the door, a hay bale basin in a bed will soak up a lot.  Move the drain from time to time. We Put in a massive branched drain ( with pro help), but it failed within three years. A really big chip basin would work well, surround it w fruit trees. We're redoing the system, putting in a worm composting toilet, and re routing the grey water to a bed planted for the bees. Problem is freezing weather...

Jen Gira wrote:

Despite feeling pretty deflated at my ultra lame growing season (due to various high desert (and those who know em know em, ugh) challenges and pests) I saw the wonder of Permaculture in action. In a period of a week.

Tyler Ludens wrote:

Jen Gira wrote:

Despite feeling pretty deflated at my ultra lame growing season (due to various high desert (and those who know em know em, ugh) challenges and pests) I saw the wonder of Permaculture in action. In a period of a week.

That's one of the most encouraging things I've read in days!  I'm so glad things are looking up.  It has been/is being a tough year for a lot of us, so, don't feel alone with that deflated feeling (my household has had to start buying vegetables - so sad!).

Jen Gira wrote:
Tyler, I am in no way doing Permie stuff on your level, but hope to!

Ericka said "when we have a unusual heavy monsoon season all kinds of plants come up in the high desert, theses seed can be dormant for 50 years.

Daniel said, "Spreading your resources too thin could end up not being enough to sustain trees and hinder other long term goals. ...

When it comes to planting trees, I think doing one small guild area at a time is a good way to go. Trying to buy or sow hundreds of trees at one time could end up sucking up a lot of water and have a rough time advancing. Building one manageable area at a time with a handful of trees and nurturing an entire ecosystem of different layers of under story plants and the beneficial fungi and insects will work toward creating a stable system that can start to take care of itself. If you have enough mulch to put 1 inch over an acre, or 8 inches over 1/8 of an acre, chances are the smaller area with more mulch will retain more water, grow more fungi, have more insect habitats, be less prone to losing plants due to drought or strong sun, on and on.

Joseph said, "In my life, I don't use the meme that water can be wasted... If doesn't disappear when it is used... If flows downwards into the soil, or into a body of water, or into a water table, or it goes into the air and cools the environment, before settling out as dew, rain, snow, etc... In the desert, more water ==> more generation of biomass. Presumably, more biomass ==> healthier soils.

I think that the "Water it and see what happens" advice is brilliant.  ...