vegans even 'sort of' - lets talk -

Loving the new vegan forum here at permies. I am not totally vegan but seem to be moving more in that direction all of the time. Animals are a necessary part of the growing equation even if it is wild animals that come through and fertilize the area.

We have a few hundred starlings that pass through my back yard once a year. When they leave EVERYTHING is covered in little bird poops. I don't mind though, it is free fertilizer and I'm sure they clean up a bunch of bugs and other critters at the same time. They have never been destructive to my plants.

I think they come here because of the very tall safe canopy of the old pecan trees and the small water features on the ground.

So far there have never been problems with them bringing in desease to my chickens so I think I want to continue to keep this a hospitable rest stop for them.

One of the main issues that I see in the vegan community is the concern about exploitation of animals. There are many ways that we can gain the benefit of the animal input in our gardens/farms while at the same time actually benefiting and providing increased habitat for the non-human animals around us.

I'm hoping that we can explore those ideas here.

I'm a recipe hog too - would love to hear some of your favorites.

Hi there Jeanine, nice to meet you!
I'm a vegan, have been for quite some time now, I'm a permaculture newbie. I've noticed that veganism/vegetarianism is somewhat frowned upon by some permaculturists. I find this odd because I am a vegan because I think there is something wrong with the way we currently produce food, and this very same idea has lead me to permaculture. I think that animals raised in a true permaculture environment is a huge improvement from the kind of industrialised mainstream animal raising, and I am very happy for meat eaters to do this. But if I do end up implementing permaculture myself I can't see myself changing my vegan ways because it would still interfere with my personal beliefs of how animals ought to be treated. I would be happy to encourgae wild animals into my garden and utilise their manure, but not keep animals to intentionally cause their deaths ultimately, I believe animals have a right to exist in their own right and live a life that nature intended them to live. I DO agree with the permaculture idea of nature being a system and animals being a part of that system, but I don't necessarily believe that farming animals of is a natural process. Hope I'm making sense here, it's a bit hard to explain!

I like that you don't consider the starlings a pest as many people would. I agree with you that a mutually benefial relationship with animals is ok, I don't think animals animals have to be eaten, you could just encourage wild life or some people have animals as pets. I know that there would be a calorie loss by not eating them, but that value could be made up by the joy of their company and using their manure long term?

I am also a recipe freak!! Can't get enough lol

I am a 'sort of' vegetarian. It is nice to have a place dedicated to alternative diets. Most farmers get offended by my "pro-life" animal and anti-gun beliefs.

Hello!

I am new here and a vegan! I love and support permaculture, but currently we do not have our own land. We have an apartment balcony and a community garden plot (where permaculture is frowned upon). I am totally ok with animals in permaculture. Wild animals are the best as that proves you are actually doing something correct to attract them there in the first place (kudos to you)! I think if we had land I would try and help sustain some of the heriloom breeds of animals that are going exticnt due to bad farming practices, but I would not eat them...and if someone were to buy them, I don't want to know if they are going to eat them. I happen to prefer eathworm castings to any other manure, but that is my preference and what we have had success with and we can make it in the laundry room!

We are hoping to get permission to build some bird houses and bat boxes on our community garden plot to attract the free manure producers as well. We are still waiting on that.

I too love recipes and if you are interested, I have a vegan recipe pin board that you are welcome to visit for eating ideas. http://pinterest.com/joynesssparkles/cruelty-free-food/

Nice to meet you!

I'm not a vegan but I like to cook vegetarian and vegan entrees/snacks.
I liked some of your pinterest recipes. Quite cool.

What a great idea.

Hey folks,

I'm an ovo-vegetarian (no meat or dairy) although I did toy with the idea of going completely vegan a while ago from an environmental/animal welfare point of view. However, I learned about Permaculture and the importance of animals in a food growing system and decided to stick at vegetarianism. While we don't have animals on our smallholding, my folks (who're vegetarian) might get chickens and/or ducks in the near future for eggs and pest control and I'm toying with the idea of getting bees. When I eventually move out and get my own place I'll consider veganism again.

Anyway, my question is - how, in a vegan PC system, do you ensure that the benefits of animals on your land are otherwise provided by wildlife or another mechanism?

Sam

Sam White wrote:
my question is - how, in a vegan PC system, do you ensure that the benefits of animals on your land are otherwise provided by wildlife or another mechanism?
Sam

As I mentioned above we have a few hundred starlings pass through our place every year and when they leave the place is covered with poop. Free fertlizer. They have never stripped fruit from my trees or touched my tender greens. I do think it may be due to the very tall canopy of old pecan trees. The birds do come to the ground and drink or bathe in one of 5 water features so having water and shelter (the tall old trees and thick trees/shrubs on fence line) is probably why they stop here every year. They also eat lots of something on the ground but I don't know what it is - it has never been my plants.

We also have a bunch of robins that hang out seasonally and they do actually dig holes - I was blaming the squirrels but I caught the robins in the act. So the birds are providing fertilizer and eating insects.

The water features provide LOTS of habitat: Several hundred tadpoles turned frogs so far this year, water for bees (lots of bees hang out there), birds, lizards, snakes. The snakes are desperately needed here to control the voles who eat about half of what I plant. Snakes don't dig holes like dogs do so I am a big snake lover.

Worms -- the Bill Mollison (and Ruth Stout) method of tucking kitchen scraps here and there under the surface of garden beds means that your worm castings are spread pretty much evenly around your garden. I used to spread WAY TOO much money on bags of worm castings as the 'superior' form of no-burn fertilizer. And all the while there were worms out in my yard just waiting to be fed. Now, some years later there are worms in just about every place I put my hand in the dirt – that equals fertilizer. This, to me, is much easier than tending a compost pile.

No, it is not a heavy duty fertilizer but at the level of gardening that I am doing it seems to be sufficient. I have SOO much green matter in the form of banana, canna, and edible greens leaves that there is always plenty of food for worms, bugs and microbes to eat. I also eat a lot of raw food/juices so that is almost daily ‘trash’ for the garden.

I do alternate small beds leaving one small bed to go to weeds and leaf trash – all winter or all summer. When you peek under the leaves you can see that the soil is all crumbly from worms. Also this gives a home for the solitary bees to hang out so I’m also setting aside a space there for the pollinators.

There are so many ways to provide habitat for wildlife I’m sure it will take me a life time to learn them all. Maybe we could start a new thread just for wildlife habitat for the vegan garden.

Hey there! I am 100% vegan in my diet, and I cook almost everything from scratch. No "junk food" and I keep everything low fat. The effect this has had on my life is something I can't even begin to put into words.

"Vegan" is a bit of a loaded word. I wish that it weren't. I tend to call myself plant-based because "real vegans" are offended that I really only pay attention to it diet-wise. But, I'm all about keeping animals on your property and using them for dual purposes - "earning their keep" if you will. Give them a good life, use their poop or their wool or their amazing digestive capabilities, whatever. That's cool. But nope, I'm not interested in eating animals or their products. Not even organic or free range. I know people will be up in arms over this, but really - animal protein has been damaging to my health and there's no way I'm going back, thanksverymuch.

I'm personally surprised that more permaculture folks aren't plant-based in their diets, because life becomes so simple when you don't need to raise animals to eat. You immediately lower the number of animals you'd need overall, for one, and that means fewer resources, time, and energy devoted to their care. I think if I had to choose animals to keep, it'd be pigs, chickens, and sheep. Possibly a horse or two if the property was quite large. Pigs for their ability to chew up icky land and turn it into awesome land (and because I LOVE PIGS!!), chickens for their ability to keep fruit flies from decimating fruit populations and for their great manure, and sheep because I'd love to try to spin wool and knit with it as part of my interest in sustainability. It'd be a relatively small gathering of animals. Cats and dogs are a given because that's just how I am. And, I understand that cats & dogs are carnivores and need to eat meat, but I'd probably just source this locally.

As for recipes, I love love love love Lindsay Nixon's books. You can check her out at happyherbivore.com

Kylie thanks for the recipe resource. I'll check it out.

I can totally understand about having animals to help out with the chores but not eating them.

I can't say that I will never ever eat chicken again but even if I don't I will always have them at my place. I just love having them around. Maybe they are my familiar and I didn't even know it. Plus, as you say, they keep the bug population down.

I have done a terrible job harvesting my muscadines this year and they keep the ground clean for me. Plus it really tickles me to see them jump up and clip the tender new leaves on the vines. They are trimmed perfectly to about 3 feet off of the ground.

The geese and I are deveoping an love/annoy relationship. They annoy me so I pick them up and carry them around for a while 'loving' on them - which annoys the hell out of them so they stop annoying me for a while. But I think they secretly love it 'cause they always come back for more.

I want to change my diet, but Im not sure will I make it. Did you have a difficulties at the start?

Ivon, we all come to this path for different reasons.

Some for health benefits, some because it can be a very inexpensive way to eat (I didn't have money for much meat when I was raising a family) and some because we do not like the way that factory farmed animals are raised and so on.

Why you decide to choose a vegan diet can influence how easy or difficult it might be to stay on it.

I personally feel that I must be responsible for the animal from beginning to end if I am going to eat it -- and gradually I am losing my taste even for that. Plus after a couple of years of being mostly meat-free I just don't feel well when I eat meat - so there is another way that makes this type of eating easy for me.

I have a strong desire to do that only because of animals. I feel that my body is healthier and stronger when I don't eat meat. But I can't stop eat fish and cheese so easily, I like them very much:(

Ivon Carter wrote:I have a strong desire to do that only because of animals. I feel that my body is healthier and stronger when I don't eat meat. But I can't stop eat fish and cheese so easily, I like them very much:(

There are a couple of ways to approach veganism - you can be a "junk food" vegan or you can focus on eating whole foods.

If you don't mind being a junk food vegan, you should check out cheese substitutes such as Daiya (I think I've spelled that right). Really good stuff. Not appropriate all the time if you're looking to avoid processed foods. Also, you can use nutritional yeast to give a cheesy flavor.

For fish, try making Happy Herbivore's Mock Tuna Salad. You could eat that whenever you get a craving for fish.

It takes about a month for your taste buds to transition and for you to stop craving certain things. You'll not only get used to it, you'll love it!

You can do it!

Thank you for this great thread! I have been vegetarian for 22 years now. I was vegan for several months and never felt better, but "fell off the wagon" for a cheese pizza and got lazy. I had read "Diet for a New America" and my world view changed forever. Now, I am ready to re read some of the books on my shelf and re start...I am what you would call a "junk food" vegetarian.

I love the term "plant based". It is more in line with my way of thinking.

As for the permaculture aspect, though raised vegetarian, once my sons were out on their own, they honed their own beleifs...one is a strong advocate of fishing and hunting for food. I guess we will balance each other out in the scheme of things.

Cynthia Hobbs wrote:Hi there Jeanine, nice to meet you!
I'm a vegan, have been for quite some time now, I'm a permaculture newbie. I've noticed that veganism/vegetarianism is somewhat frowned upon by some permaculturists. I find this odd because I am a vegan because I think there is something wrong with the way we currently produce food, and this very same idea has lead me to permaculture. I think that animals raised in a true permaculture environment is a huge improvement from the kind of industrialised mainstream animal raising, and I am very happy for meat eaters to do this. But if I do end up implementing permaculture myself I can't see myself changing my vegan ways because it would still interfere with my personal beliefs of how animals ought to be treated. I would be happy to encourgae wild animals into my garden and utilise their manure, but not keep animals to intentionally cause their deaths ultimately, I believe animals have a right to exist in their own right and live a life that nature intended them to live. I DO agree with the permaculture idea of nature being a system and animals being a part of that system, but I don't necessarily believe that farming animals of is a natural process. Hope I'm making sense here, it's a bit hard to explain!

I like that you don't consider the starlings a pest as many people would. I agree with you that a mutually benefial relationship with animals is ok, I don't think animals animals have to be eaten, you could just encourage wild life or some people have animals as pets. I know that there would be a calorie loss by not eating them, but that value could be made up by the joy of their company and using their manure long term?

I am also a recipe freak!! Can't get enough lol

Hi, all. I haven't been here in quite a while, primarily because there was not a lot of support for vegan permaculture. But, for some odd reason, I checked back here today and found they had added a vegan forum. Well, that was just my ticket, so now I'm adding my two cents to the conversation.

I find myself in complete agreement with Cynthia, here. I feel certain that permaculture can be done successfully without (intentional) animal imputs, in fact I have both seen it and done it. I too welcome animals into my garden. They are their as part of the balance of nature. I do not feel the need to sustain them, they are perfectly capable of sustaining themselves without my assistance. Neither do I feel the need to "employ" or exploit them. I just share the earth with them. If some here feel differently, they are certainly free to believe as they desire.

I too, am a whole-foods vegan, although for health reasons, I must abstain from gluten containing grains. I also avoid anything GMO related, for health purposes. Yet, while my veganism may have started as a way to improve my selfish/egotistical health, it rapidly unfolded into a whole new dynamic; my relationship with nature as a whole, and animals in particular. I spiritually grew, from an "all about me" mentality consuming anything I damn well pleased because no one else mattered, to a person who desperately wanted to share the earth in equality and fairness, to stop bringing harm to my fellow creatures and live in harmony with the entire natural dynamic. It has become abundantly clear to me that the massive scale of industrialized meat production is destroying the planet, the economy, our health, not to mention our relationship with all the other life forms with whom we share a very tiny blue ball. Others may shy away from the word "vegan," thinking it implies some sort of lunatic fringe imagery. I embrace the term! All the way down to my eco-friendly, vegan shoes! LOL!

And now I'm going to run off and hide, because I'm pretty sure someone's going to shout my down for saying all of this! Lol!

Ivon Carter wrote:I want to change my diet, but Im not sure will I make it. Did you have a difficulties at the start?

Ivon, I would start with the documentary called Forks over Knives. The documentary is free if you already have a NetFlix account. Otherwise, it's totally worth renting, or buying it from Amazon or a bookstore.
It will teach you the healthiest vegan diet on the planet, and arm you with all the reasons why you should. The people who put the documentary together are about a dozen medical doctors armed to the teeth with facts and decades of research. You'll be able to stand your ground forever on the support of their cookbooks, videos, facebook groups, "approved" list of other's cookbooks, etc.

I'm relatively new to permies, I've been vegan for about a year now, and vegetarian for almost 2. Stoked to see that there are some vegans on here because, yes, veganism does seem a bit frowned upon in the permaculture world. Regardless, these forums are loaded with useful information and awesome people.

That being said, I have been thinking about my future, and somewhere down the line possibly creating/maintaining a food forest. My initial thought that I wouldn't have animals because because I'm a vegan and I wouldn't do anything with them aside from caring for them...which I now realize is ridiculous. It makes sense to have animals in a functioning ecosystem, which is ultimately what you're trying to achieve with a food forest. I guess I would just try to limit the amount of animals I have so they don't eat all the food!

Let me just say, I'm not a "junk-food vegan" all the time, but I do enjoy field roast sausage entirely too much. And I'm afraid I will always be a sucker for vegan pizzas. I do, however, work at a co-op and get a lot of produce for free, which has ultimately put me in the position to eat/cook new things all of the time, as well as with the seasons. Right now I've been roasting winter squash (acorn, butternut, etc.), frying kale in a bit of olive oil with garlic powder and black pepper and the end of this years' tomatoes. I eat the kale/tomatoes combo over the roasted squash, and it is just an incredible flavor!

Looking forward to seeing more things posted in here!

Moni Dew wrote:
I would start with the documentary called Forks over Knives.

I found it filled with factual errors. Choosing to eat vegan should be made based on facts, and this film twisted them to make points. IMHO.

greg patrick wrote:

I found it filled with factual errors. Choosing to eat vegan should be made based on facts, and this film twisted them to make points. IMHO.

Greg, one that got me was Earthlings. It's really graphic, but it questions the belief that humans are above the other creatures on earth. It kind of put things into perspective for me and made me want to avoid the meat/dairy industry altogether. It's rough though. I cried.

If you want a lighter documentary, watch Food Matters. I took a lot of great things from that one.

I spent my carrier studying human nutrition, naturopathy, and natural healing. I didn't find any factual errors at all. Just doctors finally admitting what nature knew all along. In any case, the film is a great introduction to how badly human biochemistry responds to animal foods and processed foods, even if it doesn't get really clear on why every disease reverses in response to whole plant foods. I know why, from my own studies, but most people get bogged down in the details, so I think they leave it at a basic outline for that reason. I still recommend the film highly because I find most people will not convert to veganism unless they are in a life or death situation. Then they do it for selfish reasons - to save their own lives. Compassion for animals doesn't seem to occur to anyone who still has a gut-full of dead ones. :shrugs: Maybe it's just my experiences with people. But, as I have said elsewhere, I live in a very backward thinking part of the country, so I don't get a lot of exposure to forward thinking people. I could be guilty of my own prejudices.

Jeanine Gurley wrote: There are many ways that we can gain the benefit of the animal input in our gardens/farms while at the same time actually benefiting and providing increased habitat for the non-human animals around us.

I'm hoping that we can explore those ideas here.

I'm a recipe hog too - would love to hear some of your favorites.

If any of you have any tips to share on how you provide your gardens with fertilizer I would love to hear them - in this thread or even start another thread and if you have any favorite recipes from your garden please do share.

Tyler Taglieri wrote:
Greg, one that got me was Earthlings. It's really graphic, but it questions the belief that humans are above the other creatures on earth. It kind of put things into perspective for me and made me want to avoid the meat/dairy industry altogether. It's rough though. I cried.

If you want a lighter documentary, watch Food Matters. I took a lot of great things from that one.

I've watched them both and they seem to say either you eat inhumane feedlot/confinement animals or you eat vegan. There are obviously other options available. Land is rendered more fertile when pastured animals are run on it. You can feed a family of four with ten chickens and a few goats on a very small plot of sustainably managed land. And the bio-diversity of running animals on pasture vs planting GMO corn is striking, so the false argument that raising animals can only be done cruelly totally excludes all the native fauna that are killed and displaced when we grow vegan foods. These rather important points are not mentioned, but lots of very sad little cruelly confined animals are featured prominently. I stick with my point that these are propaganda films that pluck at our heartstrings with very little in the way of facts. I find listening to Joel Salatin and watching Food Inc and Occam's Grazer more enlightening. But they do come to very different conclusions than the three films mentioned above and don't support a vegan model, but rather a more balanced approach of sustainable and humane use of animals to enrich the land. More like ovo/lacto veggie.

Hey all you animal lovers

Great to hear about you all, truly inspirational! Myself, I have been back and forth for about three years from vegetarian to raw vegan. I am a homegrown nutritionist and registered trainer who confirmed most of what I learned in my life with a little bit of schooling, though most of what I learnt in school stayed at school, as it seemed to be education for monetary marketing rather than education for ideal health. Sad....
Personally, I have had a close bond with animals my whole life, and had it not have been for my parents raising me on meat I'm sure I would never have considered it growing up, I was also one of those strange children who enjoyed brussel sprouts, cabbage and broccoli, but only if it was raw...cooked veg just didn't feel right nor taste right...I have since acquired a taste for some steamed veg.
It took a while for me to make the switch, gave up all meat but fish about 5 years ago, and than gave up fish 2 years after that. My moral issues lie mainly in the production of meats and the industry practices based around it, and that was the reason I made the switch, until I learned about nutrition and began to experiment with what felt good in my body, and that was the last straw for me.
I must be completely honest though, every so often (usually once a year thus far) I will allow myself a reward and have some trout, but even those rewards are beginning to fade away as I replace what I thought was a delicious trout with a delicious peach, spoon full of hemp seeds, or raw broccoli....mmmmmmm, alas fish was the only thing I ever missed. It's amazing how the palette accepts raw foods so easily, and how much energy you gain from uncooked foods, literally I felt super human compared to my old cooking self.
The best I have ever felt through all of my phases of learning how to eat without meat was when I was completely raw vegan for a year, and if it hadn't been for everyday influences from friends and family and the the killer influence of convenience I would still be to this day. That is the one great thing I look forwards to about getting back to the land after this winter, is to start growing all my own foods and eating with the seasons, getting away from the influences of society, so that I can keep my will up and make the right choices for my health, which apparently; as my body had shown, is raw foods. To this day I have never felt so good, and you would think that feeling would be enough to keep me steady with my choices, but I am human after all, and can be influenced like any other.
Definitely a work in progress.

Interesting story, and good friend of the family, a vegetarian for 20 years decided to give it a shot just for the hell of it, and ate some roast. Half hour later he was being rushed to the hospital, because his body literally could not digest it and had no idea what to do with it. I can't for the life of me remember what the exact cause was, but one thing I did take with me was learning that the doctor had said if he had not come in as timely as he did, he would have most likely died from his ailment. Yes, there could be a lot more sides to the story, but interesting none the less.

I would warn anyone who wants to get into the no meat lifestyle, to start small, 1 week, 2 weeks at a time and give yourself little rewards here and there for your progress...or not ;-P..., and furthermore and most importantly learn about the nutrition that your body "needed" from meat and find the vegetables that will give you the same amount of nutrition. For instance, through out the day if you can eat a cup of hemp hearts or a cup of quinoa (sprouted or cooked), a fist of broccoli, a fibrous plant such as celery, your selection of nuts, a cup of beans, a handful of mushrooms, and some fruit of your choice as snacks in between meals, you can rest assured that you will get all and much more of your "recommended" daily nutritional values are for amino acids, sugars, and fatty acids (protein, carbs, fat)...not to mention your antioxidants and essential minerals. If through researching all of this you find that you ask yourself...well what about B12, no worries, go find a garden and eat something fresh, but don't you dare clean that soil off, that is where the precious bacteria which produce cyanocobalamin(B12) comes from. How do you think the cow gets enough of it to store in its body without having to result in cannibalism? Soil is good for your health

The above is an important point that I would like to re iterate, all herbivores and omnivores can get optimal health from everything they eat, and wouldn't you know it, we all have the same nutritional requirements, and very often even the omnivore only eats meat because it is available, not because it needs it for good health and in true wild survival any animal will take what it can get to support it's life (which is one reason why I can't say I wont ever eat meat again, a time may arise where I have no other choice, as I do a lot of out backing). Humans are not a whole lot different, and the only reason why a carnivore eats 95% meat (yes they do eat some available vegetables, ever watch a cat eat grass and other herbs?) is because they do not have the jaw structure to grind and chew fibrous foods, they can only rip and tear. Please don't bring up the canine tooth argument to justify the 'evolutionary need' to eat meat either, they are a weak comparison to the true carnivores canines, ours are justified only by the need to rip and tear tough fibrous foods of many plants and roots.

Food for thought, a lions stomach produces 10x's the amount that humans do of hydrochloric acids to break down meats in their easiest to digest raw form. It must be this way because their intestinal tract is also a lot shorter than a humans, and needs to break down all the amino bonds and potential bacteria so that they do not plague their short intestines. The human digestive tract has a heck of a time digesting cooked meats; fish is not as bad and is far easier to digest, but still none the less difficult for your body. Because of the weaker content of hydrochloric acid, these undigested meats will plague your long intestines, and clog up and stick to their walls, causing even poorer digestion for the rest of the foods that need to pass through and be absorbed. As well, there are many digestive enzymes in your body which are signalled when food passes through your system, and wouldn't you know it, a carrot uses different enzymes than a steak to break down its components, but these digestive enzymes do not like to work together...you will end up not fully digesting either of the foods because each enzyme becomes diluted by the other, leaving your body to struggle to pass food through your body, and not getting the maximum potential of nutrition released. So at very least, if you are to eat meat, eat it by itself and give your body a fighting chance to get all the valuable nutrition from it....oh and one more thing, don't drink during your meal, this dilutes your stomach acid and the enzymes working in your mouth, resulting in less than ideal digestion. Save the fluids for shortly after.......yeah this one may be hard for you to do, as we have all most likely been raised with a glass of something during your meal, and you think you need it to wash the food down your throat....but you don't.

I may also state that much of what I say is only me presenting my own perspectives and my own truths, I am sure there is much many disagree with, and frankly I hope that you do. Never take someone else's word as truth to yourself, always search for your own within yourself, but be careful not to lie to yourself in order to justify foolish desires. I know just how easy this is, and if I am human enough to do such things, so are you. Become aware of your own thoughts and your own body, not of someone else's.....well unless you are providing aid or a non judgmental ear

Much love to all and whatever path your lives takes you, it is all such great lessons to learn from.

Scott

Ps. If you are avid about eating meat, do the right thing, get connected to the earth and take the life yourself, don't expect someone else to do the dirty work, not to mention some run of the mill production line which pumps animals full of chemicals, and keeps them in such horrible conditions it could make even a hunter cry. If you can't do it, well, time to start weighing options, because your hearts inability to take a life is telling you something. There is a wide world of amazing foods that don't involve meat, many of which put the taste of meat to shame, intact make it taste like putrid garbage.

scott andrews wrote:Hey all you animal lovers

these undigested meats will plague your long intestines, and clog up and stick to their walls, causing even poorer digestion for the rest of the foods that need to pass through and be absorbed. As well, there are many digestive enzymes in your body which are signalled when food passes through your system, and wouldn't you know it, a carrot uses different enzymes than a steak to break down its components, but these digestive enzymes do not like to work together...you will end up not fully digesting either of the foods because each enzyme becomes diluted by the other, leaving your body to struggle to pass food through your body, and not getting the maximum potential of nutrition released. So at very least, if you are to eat meat, eat it by itself and give your body a fighting chance to get all the valuable nutrition from it..

Can you cite your sources for this info? I've never heard these claims before. Thanks.

Hello Greg,

You'll have to give me a little bit of time with that, as most these sources don't come from the internet, but rather my nutritional book from university. It basically shows what enzymes are triggered by different types of foods as they pass through you digestive system. However what it doesn't state is how they react with one another, that in itself is very knew knowledge that you wont find in texts books yet, but rather I base this of the knowledge of my professor. So I suppose I should state that much of the research on this will not have been published, or at least not that I am currently aware of. Let me dig into it a little bit for yea, to see if I can find relevant studies that you can dig your teeth into. In the mean time, try it out and see if your body can see the difference. Personally, I do not eat meat anymore and cant feel for myself, but based off my understanding of how enzymes work, there is a lot of sense in what was shared with me. So until I find the research, perhaps it is best to take it as an informed opinion.

Cheers

Figured I'd introduce myself here. I've been vegan for 6 years and was vegetarian for 6 years before that. Currently converting 11 acres over to a permaculturally designed farm.

Greg Patrick,

Scanning through the new vegan forum here and noticing your obvious desire for factual, scientific information rather than anecdotal and managed presentations that conveniently ignore/manipulate important points and facts.

Thank you for your presence here as far as I can tell. I grew up on a ranch in Montana, got a B.S. in Agronomy and eventually found a vegan lifestyle after many hard questions and skepticisms like yourself. I always appreciated those who gave me well supported answers along the way. I visited the Farm Sanctuary in central New York and although their literature, unfortunately, had some problems (which I dialogued with them over), I did find a mass of undeniable facts that I had to grapple with. Not advocating their cause or literature - they could very well still have problems - but it happened to be an occasion when someone took the time to prepare something with decent support and I appreciated that. Definitely a big fan of honesty and the scientific method.

People often grow to really dislike my lines of questioning and I carry a crap-o-meter with me everywhere I go : )

I am curious, what brings you to this forum?

Personally, I am just beginning to develop vegan permaculture in small city setting (can we say micro-guilding? Don't know, but experimenting) and grappling with all the hard questions about animals role in that endeavor.

Welcome John

Glad to have you here. I'm new myself.

If you're up for it, would like to know if you're planning on using a vegan approach to your 11 acre project and how you define that.

Kevin Hillel wrote:Welcome John

Glad to have you here. I'm new myself.

If you're up for it, would like to know if you're planning on using a vegan approach to your 11 acre project and how you define that.

Well I will be using what I consider a vegan approach. With my farm I'm not trying to just build a food forest and some hugelbeds and kitchen garden; I'm trying to develop a productive ecosystem. As with all ecosystems that involves animals; some predator and some prey. It is my plan to encourage as much wildlife as I can. I would also like to have goats and chickens on my farm. I only wish to have them if I can manage to find rescue animals; using them for their natural abilities to keep pests and troublesome plant species to a minimum. Some what controversial with other vegans I've talked to, I've stated that if the chickens lay eggs I will most definitely eat them. Eggs are a great source a nutrients and will help me transition from my dependence on outside food sources. I also see nothing unethical about eating unfertilized eggs from chickens that I personally can guarantee are living a life as close to their natural way as possible.

vegan section was what finally got me to sign up for the forums.

I only wish to have them if I can manage to find rescue animals

Keep your eyes on Craig's List (Farm/Garden). I often see people giving away chickens, or selling them cheaply. Often they are older hens that don't lay enough eggs to warrant feeding (especially through the winter). The other day I saw two different postings for 10-12 hens. One was for 2 year old hens, the other said they hadn't laid for several months...probably molting. Each one wanted $10 for the flock.

Also, sometimes people get caught with hens in a city that does not allow them.
They need to get rid of them quickly to avoid further fines.

In my opinion, if somebody is opposed to having hens free ranging, they should also be opposed to the wrens, sparrows, blue jays and other wild birds that land on their property. What's the difference?

The down side to keeping larger animals is that many free/rescue animals are not in the best of health. How much is one willing to spend on vet bills over the years?

John that is a really great idea about the chicken rescue.

I not sure if people realize what great companions chickens can be. I used to have a rooster we named Bobby. I could go out on the porch and yell 'Bobby' at the top of my lungs and he would come running as fast as he could and jump up on my arm and sit there to get petted.

A great source of uncontaminated fertilizer and are great at cleaning up garden areas inbetween plantings.

Our current roosters are named (sooo unoriginal) Foghorn and The Rock. Foghorn is becoming quite a large fellow but doesn't crow (yet) and The Rock is smaller but he's the dude in charge.

The birds concentrate their poo in one area so it makes it very easy for me to collect it for food for my plants.

I just can't imagine living here and not having my chicken friends around - usually better companions than people.

So very happy to find this thread!! I am a vegan and I am a permie newbie!! I have 2.5 acres of land with a barn. I also share my space with 6 carnivores (4 dogs and 2 cats). Looking to add pigs, chickens, and maybe goats or donkeys. I have a lot to learn. I am vegan for my health and for ethical reasons. I absolutely love animals and enjot my time connecting to animals and the earth. So glad to be a part of this group!! I am sure I will have lots of questions!!

Hi everyone.

I wanted to applaud Scott for his concise and well written perspective. I have intuitively felt much the same in regards to human dietary nature. It's hard to find scientific writings that don't have some predisposition to an outcome.

I also wanted to comment on vegetarians using domesticated animals. I think its silly that the same people who might scoff at how pro-vegan movies might claim the only alternative to feedlot meat is going vegan, or trying to argue that having a meat based diet is somehow healthier for the planet then a plant based one ( as if a meat eater doesn't also eat the same veggies as a plant eater!), so to is it silly to claim you cannot use animals if you don't plan on eating them. Do you also eat your horses? What about the birds, voles, and deer that also play a part in permaculture? Do they get eaten as well? No. You can return an animals body back to earth besides eating it yourself. Around here, if a chicken isn't moving, it's likely gone to a bobcat faster then I could even get out there to notice it. Anyway, its late. Till next time.

Oh yeah, and I've been a lacto-vegetarian all my life. I'm 31.

I have long wondered what extreme animal rights people do with their pets? Dogs and cats are biologically adapted to meat eating given their digestion and anatomy. I do know of a person who claimed she fed her dog only vegies and the animal appeared healthy! I recently had a near-starving cat dropped on me. I began to try to feed it back to life. I put her in the barn store room where I could keep her from being attacked by my cat or the dogs. That is where I keep the dog and cat food. When I was ladling out dog food with plenty of cat food in her bowl she seemed to eat the dog food in preference for the cat food. Obviously there was something in the dog food more attractive to her than the cat food. Now she or he seems satisfied with primarily cat food but still does feed on the dog food when I ladle it out and before I take it away from her to put out to the dogs. The cat was near dead with little energy and her fur dull and damaged in spots. I will be taking her to the vet to check for mange because she has a few mange-looking spots. She also has worms and I found a bottle of worm medicine left unused for my own animals. I also put some diatomaceous earth in her cat food. Now she is getting a shine to her and she has enough energy to explore outside, but she is still so traumatized that most of the time she rests in a darken corner of a box surrounded by bags of feed filled with empty dog food cans! At first I was unable to even touch her, but now she begs for petting. Afraid to transfer what is possibly mange to my other animals that I pet, I put on gloves or wash my hands thoroughly if I pet her. She or he is still only skin and bones though! It is painful to me to pet her.

I am still enjoying my 80/10/10 fruitarianism. It is my belief that if the main portion of the world's population became fruitarian then pastureland would be converted to orchards. Trees capture a lot of CO2 and give back what is now diminishing--oxygen. Our survival may depend on us becoming fruitarian or we face (and the rest of the earth) extinction. I live in naturally tree covered land, but the need for meat has caused almost a clear cutting of these forests in order to graze cattle. We just can't afford that kind of elimination of any forested areas. In a biology course I took, the professor said that the more surface area of a leaf the more capable of CO2 extraction. What has more surface than Ashe Juniper I ask? I also know that Ashe juniper holds water in the soil because underneath the drip line of an Ashe Juniper was damp soil in a drought as compared to other areas, which were hard as concrete. It is either reforestation or the questionable technological techniques, profit-based, which may well be the sudden end of humankind. I am spending my final years here planting fruit trees and I love the work. Wish I could have spent my lifetime doing that.

Hello ...I am vegetarian leaning towards vegan.
Taking care of wild animals is one of my passions now, after living in the wild, and seeing firsthand just how hard animals struggle to exist. I build shelters for them and grow a lot of food for them as well as people. I also grow plants for insects.
Most people seem to just talk about this. I am having trouble meeting people who actually do things like this, so I joined this website in hopes of meeting people who are serious about creating permaculture.
My goal is to find a group of gardeners and vegetarians to share land with. If anyone is interested, I hope they will contact me. I am in the southeast, zone 6-7 for gardening, in the Va-Tn-NC-Ky corner of the mountains.
Greta
p.s. Carol: Just because my dog eats meat doesn't mean I have to eat meat.
In fact, dogs are omnivores, not carnivores. Most people are omnivores, but it may not be best. A Harvard study showed that the body wastes energy breaking meat down into proteins to rebuild with them. It's like tearing old houses down, which is harder than starting with new wood. Vegetable protein is like new wood: It takes less energy to put the house together without having to tear one down first to get lumber.

Indeed, Greta, in the book "The China Study," the author mentioned a scientific study that proved excessive protein caused cancer!

I have noticed that when I maintain my fruitarian eating I have no morning nose blowing. When I eat the catfish from a restaurant, I spend the next morning clearing my nose of phlegm, which means my body considered it a foreign material.

I noticed this year my dog eating sunflower leaves! Of course, it is well known that dogs eat grass from time to time. I noticed my cat eating grass too! However, I believe dogs and cats are predators as they have eyes frontally whereas animals preyed upon have eyes on the sides of their heads. Nature balances itself with the food chain, some there to eat plants, then eaten by carnivores in a permanent cycle of sustainability. The poop and eventually the carcasses of the carnivores providing nourishment for the plants. Regretfully we have the eyes of a predator, but the gut system of a fruitarian/vegetarian. Probably we evolved the meat eating facial features during the Ice Age, but the Ice Age did not last long enough to change our digestion.

I went fishing once in my lifetime, but hated that you had to kill the struggling miserable fish once you had landed it. So I should give up my catfish too! Last time I went out for a trip to town, I didn't eat anything but bananas that I bought! So perhaps I am getting to my permanent health as I know the meals bought out don't do me much good. I have found that a chain available here, i.e., Jason's Deli has a vegetarian soup and lots of organic stuff in their salad bar, but that is very far away and I don't make that trip often.

I hope you find like-minded people for your intended community very soon. I struggle on here alone in a land where people are clueless on permaculture. However, the surrounding properties are hunting ranches so I think I am protected from a lot of pesticide and herbicide runoff and the air is as good as you can find. However, on weekends, it does get less clear as people with the wrong consciousness race around trying to find peace in the country.

I don't lease for hunting and I have water available for my goats and the wild birds and other wildlife does take advantage of that. I try to grow things for the bees to have nectar.

Since the neighbors are all hunters, the keep deer feeders going year round, so the raccoons and other small mammals are well fed by them. The bobcats and coyotes keep themselves well fed on those artificially fattened deer.

Carol Grosser wrote: I struggle on here alone in a land where people are clueless on permaculture.

Not entirely!