• Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
permaculture forums growies critters building homesteading energy monies kitchen purity ungarbage community wilderness fiber arts art permaculture artisans regional education skip experiences global resources cider press projects digital market permies.com pie forums private forums all forums
this forum made possible by our volunteer staff, including ...
master stewards:
  • Carla Burke
  • John F Dean
  • Nancy Reading
  • r ranson
  • Jay Angler
  • Pearl Sutton
  • paul wheaton
  • Leigh Tate
  • Burra Maluca
master gardeners:
  • Christopher Weeks
  • Timothy Norton
  • Jeremy VanGelder
  • Paul Fookes
  • Tina Wolf
  • Likes 3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Listen Online

Get all of the Podcasts in convenient, giant zip files
Subscribe on iTunes


Paul sits down with some of his patreons (Julia, Katie, and Mark) to talk about an essay written by Derrek Jensen that became a precursor to Paul’s Building a Better World in your Backyard.

“And we shouldn’t pretend that solar photovoltaics, for example, exempt us from this: they still require mining and transportation infrastructures at every point in the production processes; the same can be said for every other so-called green technology” - Derrek

“I guess my approach is to make a long, long list of stuff that people can do themselves, in their back yard. Or in their house. Or on their homestead. And I hope to connect these ideas to millions of people. And I hope like minded people also share oodles of bits and bobs for others to do and they also connect those ideas to millions of people. And those millions tell millions more. And these ideas start to make their way to industry, because industry is loaded to the gills with people.  Further still, with a lot of these ideas I like to attach the word "permaculture". I hope that people will hear the word enough that they will think of looking toward permaculture to find a huge catalog of good ideas to explore.” - Paul

Julia points out that Derrek’s beliefs rely on nearly everyone being basically good and generous, whilst Paul’s acknowledges that not everyone will follow his path, but allows those that do to shine and attract anyone who wants a cheaper, more luxuriant life to follow along.  As a kind of proof of not everyone being nice, permaculture seems to attract such people to such concentration that about 1 in 10 members of the community are just around to cause problems and Paul had to address this in one of the pods a little way back.

Relevant Threads

Derrick Jensen: Forget Shorter Showers - Why personal change does not equal political change
Derrick Jensen "personal change vs. political change" - Paul's response

Building a Better World in your Backyard by Paul Wheaton and Shawn Klassen-Koop

Podcast 592 - Permaculture Smackdown 21 - Haters Gonna Hate - Part 1

Support the Empire

Help support the empire and get all of the podcasts in a bundle here in the digital market at permies.

To support production of these podcasts, make a donation here at Paul's Patreon page.

This podcast was made possible thanks to:

Dr. Hugh Gill Kultur
Kyle Neath
Bill Crim
Chris Sugg
Kerry JustTooLazy
Jocelyn Campbell
Bill Erickson
G Cooper
Dominic Crolius
Penny McLoughlin
Mehron Kugler
Pasquale DeAngelis
Julia Winter, world's slowest mosaic artist
Greg Martin
Sean Benedict
Rita Bliden
Dana Martin
Candace Dahlk
Keith Kuhnsman
Eric Tolbert
Nick DePuy
Nathan Hale
Opalyn Brenger
Polly Jayne Smyth
Todd Gerardot
Katie Young
Ivar Vasara
Brent Lawson
Weston prestage
Candice Crawford
Chris Holtslag
Song Zheng
Posts: 2928
Location: Meppel (Drenthe, the Netherlands)
dog forest garden urban cooking bike fiber arts
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
About 'great permaculture leaders' I have my own thoughts.
Firstly I think: we are all 'ordinary human beings', 'leaders' too, they are not better than others, they have their imperfections like all of us have.

Secondly my opinion is: we do not need 'great leaders'. We need many people who all do something that influences other people, or as Paul says 'infects the brains'.
F.e. If one person has a small backyard permaculture garden and tells the neighbour about permaculture and then the neighbour becomes interested in permaculture too ...
I think that's much better than a 'great leader' leading a large non-profit and giving lectures to large audiences, etc. When such a 'great leader' shows his/her imperfection in one small thing, there will be 'trolls' pointing at that one little thing (put it under a magnifying glass) and then they say: 'See! Permaculture is wrong, see what this permaculture leader does!'

When the person with a small permaculture garden does something wrong, maybe his/her neighbour will ask: 'What are you doing there now?! Is that permaculture too?' And then the first person can answer: 'Sorry, I did this because of ..., but it is not a good example.' The neighbour accepts, because they know each other, they both know they are 'ordinary imperfect human beings'.
author and steward
Posts: 49715
Location: missoula, montana (zone 4)
hugelkultur trees chicken wofati bee woodworking
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I think there are people that will state untrue things as facts - and thus gum up the works.  Effectively stopping permaculture or stopping some of the information for doing wholesome stuff.   So it takes a leader to provide clarity to improve greater, collective, forward velocity.

She's out of the country right now, toppling an unauthorized dictatorship. Please leave a message with this tiny ad:
Take the guess-work out of seed-starting with these beautiful and ingenious SELF WATERING terracotta seed pots! Get 10% off when you sign up for our super awesome newsletter.
    Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic