shippable core - business opportunity

Lots has happened. And now we have a clean slate.

Ernie and Erica are keen on teaching, writing and R&D. But they don't want to be in the shipping business.

I like the idea that there would be three different businesses that would do this. Each would have slightly different designs and slightly different business models. And they would be in different locations. Naturally, each would have an affiliate program and I would market the hell out of them. I would have some expectation that I feel like they have done right by E&E.

I suppose one business might start shipping shippable cores in three weeks. Another might do a 30 day kickstarter first.

Maybe one would be expensive and pretty, and another would be cheap and rough.

At this moment I can imagine each of the three businesses netting six figures. Of course, I can also imagine that for each business that succeeds, five don't.

I have received email from one place that is already making something, but that design needed some improvement (IMAAOO). I have also been served dinner from somebody else that is thinking about doing shippable cores.

I guess the point is that I want to see some folks get some stuff started ASAP. And I am looking forward to throwing my empire behind such businesses.

Hey Paul... Paul here. My wife and I have an online business and ship everyday. We are too busy to get into the manufacturing of anything but if someone was looking for a person to have a distribution/shipping center we could talk.

Paul Abbott wrote:Hey Paul... Paul here. My wife and I have an online business and ship everyday. We are too busy to get into the manufacturing of anything but if someone was looking for a person to have a distribution/shipping center we could talk.

Good to know. So if somebody set you up with a hundred cores then you could take care of storing and shipping.

What part of the world are you in?

I'm curious as to the core producers/designers. Are these going to be Ernie & Erica and Matt cores? Will you be also using Peterberg's designs? Will you consider Dragonheaters and Zaug competition? And yes, it makes a difference. Not all Rocket Stove cores are the same.

I'm doubly curious because I know Zaug is coming out with a new design.

I am interested. Would love more information.

Debbie Little wrote:I am interested. Would love more information.

What sort of information do you have in mind?

We are in Oregon.

I'm interested. I've been looking for stuff like this.

Would we be making the cores ourselves or getting them from E&E? I haven't built my rocket stove yet, but I'd like to. So i have no experience building one, but I'm willing to learn.

I'm in Maryland, about an hour or two north of DC.

I just registered here today, but i've been reading for a few months.

Thomas Bricker wrote:I'm interested. I've been looking for stuff like this.

Would we be making the cores ourselves or getting them from E&E? I haven't built my rocket stove yet, but I'd like to. So i have no experience building one, but I'm willing to learn.

E&E are not going to be in the manufacturing business or in the distribution business. They will continue on their path with teaching, writing and R&D. I suspect that each of the businesses will have some sort of relationship with E&E.

Paul Abbott wrote:We are in Oregon.

Then you are close to the place where E&E have been getting their materials for R&D.

I'm interested. I've multiple successful business venture's under my belt, and am interested in what you're saying.
I'm Sherakee on Ebay and am batting a thousand there, not easy when you're moving equipment and/or large items... but possible if you're determined. I've not been particularly impressed with "Ebay", so I've limited the money they've made from me. You have my contact info and I will look forward to hearing from you if you'ld like to talk more.

Sherakee,

I think these businesses will be born in this thread. Not in email.

I am not looking to contact somebody and set them up with a business. I'm looking for somebody that sees this opportunity and will make this business become a reality. And if I like what they are doing, then I will promote their business.

Some people will have the money, the know how and everything to get this going right away. Others will be missing an ingredient or two and will arrange a deal with E&E plus do a kickstarter.

I think there is a big market here and plenty of room for a lot of businesses.

paul wheaton wrote:

Debbie Little wrote:I am interested. Would love more information.

What sort of information do you have in mind?

What investment would be on my end?
Is this drop ship or warehouse & ship?
Approx. Size facility needed?
Any monthly/ongoing fees?

I might be interested as a shipping point for Europe.
I should know next week if my new accomodation is agreed. And i might have lots of space.
A container to Nantes hire van from there is the easy bit, French paperwork...... Er the not so easy bit.

David

Debbie Little wrote:

paul wheaton wrote:

Debbie Little wrote:I am interested. Would love more information.

What sort of information do you have in mind?

What investment would be on my end?
Is this drop ship or warehouse & ship?
Approx. Size facility needed?
Any monthly/ongoing fees?

I don't know. It would entirely depend on how you go about doing your business.

E&E not only have a shippable core design, but they are hard at work on several others.

One route to go is to have a warehouse and periodically get the components fabricated. Another route is to do a lot of the fabrication yourself. Another route is to have components shipped directly from the fabricators to the consumer - be the middleman.

paul wheaton wrote:

Debbie Little wrote:

paul wheaton wrote:

Debbie Little wrote:I am interested. Would love more information.

What sort of information do you have in mind?

What investment would be on my end?
Is this drop ship or warehouse & ship?
Approx. Size facility needed?
Any monthly/ongoing fees?

I don't know. It would entirely depend on how you go about doing your business.

E&E not only have a shippable core design, but they are hard at work on several others.

One route to go is to have a warehouse and periodically get the components fabricated. Another route is to do a lot of the fabrication yourself. Another route is to have components shipped directly from the fabricators to the consumer - be the middleman.

My preference would be to work in a drop ship environment. Lower overhead. I am very interested. I am located in Georgia, just outside of Chattanooga.

you could export PC seeds to Australia there is a host of stuff we cannott get here
eg hickory,seaberrie,caragana,etc

I'd be interested in helping out however I could. I don't think it's terribly relevant, but I do own a 3D printer as well.

Paul,
To try and clear what may be ambiguous to some about this - what I'm hearing is that you are looking for some folks who are capable of, interested in, and ready to manufacture (or manage the manufacturing of) and ship Rocket heater/stove cores. Can you confirm that? I'm seeing responses that imply a willingness to sell, a willingness to ship, not so much an understanding of or willingness to manufacture. If what I'm hearing from you is correct, I am a potential candidate. I am located in s.e. Ohio which has tremendous market potential in it's own right, I have the space, I have ready access to multiple shipping paths, live in a rural area where costs are low, and probably have most of the equipment to get this going relatively quickly. I would obviously need whatever the current plans/blueprints are for manufacturing, production requirements, and other operational expectations. My specific shortfall is startup costs. There are potentially several way to handle that but most quickly engaged would be a "kickstarter" or similar campaign, or angel investor. What are your thoughts?
Regards
John Strohl

John Strohl wrote:Paul,
If what I'm hearing from you is correct, I am a potential candidate. ... I would obviously need whatever the current plans/blueprints are for manufacturing, production requirements, and other operational expectations.

John, I suspect that you are correct in your assessment, but Paul is merely dropping a hint here at a business opportunity. I don't imagine that HE wants to assist you in getting started. You probably want to contact E&E and discuss the plans, blueprints, materials requirements, and other details to be sure YOUR business is manufacturing exactly what they designed. After you know exactly what it will take to start producing them, you work up your start-up cost estimates, do a Kickstarter project, and launch your business. THEN Paul will market and advertise the heck out of your business through his empire. I could be wrong... but that's what I see going on here.

Thanks for the feedback, Edward. That's exactly why I asked. I don't expect Paul to help me. I expect him to provide a little more detail regarding that side of the equation. Paul hasn't made some of these points explicitly clear so I'm laying out what I see and asking him to respond. I expect he will at some point. He doesn't need to talk more about how I would run MY business. He needs to talk more about how the other side would run, possibly starting with what his selection criteria are for his finalists and what his expectations are for them to fulfill - volumes, time frames, turn around times on orders. To be honest, as a manufacturing guy, there's a whole lot of room for more information before I can say much beyond "I'm interested". Right now it's a little ambiguous, but that's why I'm opening up the conversation. I look forward to hearing from him.
Regards
John

John,

Yes.

I am looking for folks that can make this happen and make a good living. I am not looking for people that need step-by-step instructions.

I think it is possible that somebody could be keen on construction but not shipping, and they forge a relationship with somebody that is keen on shipping but not construction.

Ernie has a list of designs and I expect a person to be able to sift through this list and pick out the one they are gonna start with.

Eventually E&E will see this thread and hopefully discussions will start.

I need to see these designs become a reality. This will just be a big leap forward for folks that want it but don't have enough DIY skills.

Edward: spot on. Apple for you.

John: finalists? I think the "finalists" are going to be the people that get an actual business up off the ground. If I like the designs and the way things are put together, I will help with the kickstarter as well as sales.

Paul,

Then I'm one of the kind of people you're looking for. That said, there are a few details missing to know whether someone can make a living doing this and now that I know that you are mostly acting as a go between and facilitator I'll go chase down Ernie and have that discussion with him. Cost of materials, cost of labor, and doing it all sustainably (in the best sense of that word) are what I need to be looking at, and designs and production expectations are key to those considerations. Shipping is a no-brainer. Manufacturing a quality product "Made in the USA" is not hard either... with the right information. Thanks for clarifying.

Regards
John

Are the cores from patented designs or are the products open source? If open source, my business partner and I will be interested.

Are you asking for folks to build one of their designs exclusively or are you open to a new design if it meets or exceeds your expectations?

My partner and I are launching our new rocket stove in a matter of weeks. We would be interested in either manufacturing and drop shipping cores to an open sourced product designed or recommended by E&E and/or our own design. Our design will be open sourced shortly before we begin selling in order to protect it from any future patents. Is this the way E&E does business, or did they patent their designs?

I am not interested in manufacturing and shipping parts for a patented product. Open source only.

I'll look forward to your response.

My husband is a steam fitter here in West Virginia, and with a blueprint could build the cores...

To expand on my previous post, my husband could work on both options given the specs for the cores. A possible midline core that will do the job as cheap as possible to last for a reasonable amount of time and on the other end the "hard core" core that will last the longest given the heat requirements using higher end materials. i understand the limits of paul wheaton wanting to support the entrepreneur without expending the energy to incorporate the business into his empire but we could become a part of whoever wants to go into a business venture to make these things available for the common good. given specs for what is required we could work up some kind of estimate of cost. I know that heating hot water is an option for these cores and with his experience working with piping out high pressure boilers i feel confident he could also help with the fabrication of hot water systems. So here we are putting it out there, kudos to all of you out there making things happen....

Paul said "Lots has happened. And now we have a clean slate. "

er ......has it ? and er..... we do ?

Am I correct you are talking about the DVD Paul ?
Or am I not getting your point ?

Or is there something else going on I dont know about

David

I have received email from one place that is already making something, but that design needed some improvement (IMAAOO).

Paul

I am from DragonHeaters.com and I am the one who wrote you. We never received a reply to the email. We were disappointed that you didn’t want to test run a Dragon Burner and also surprised since it is Peter van den Berg’s design, as one of the primary inovators to this field, I would think it have more than a passing interest for you.

As a fellow rocket heater enthusiast, we were hoping for more dialogue with you. You never bothered to comment on whatever design improvements you think would be useful, perhaps you like to elaborate here.

We are the 1st company to commercially produce a rocket heater core. Dragon Burners lower the bar to building an efficient, functioning, rocket heater. The capital expense, effort, and expertise required to initiate production of rocket heater cores at a reasonable price point are significant. I would think anybody seeking to bring the "rocket heater" gospel to the masses would be supported.

People are asking questions because you are asking them to get excited about a set of plans which the public has not seen. No one even knows what the size options are, there is no released test data, no drawings, material specs or detail information from which someone might evauate these cores and any ensuing business opportunities that might derive from them.

http://www.dragonheaters.com/

Hello folks,
Thanks for the interest in this aspect of rocket mass heaters.

- DragonHeaters- we do know a bit about Peter's work from the ProBoards forums. It is my understanding that he's skipped over the masonry designs and done most of his testing on all-metal prototypes. We wish he would try a masonry version, since he has some very cool toys for testing and we'd love to see similar numbers on our preferred designs.
We have yet to find an affordable metal that doesn't burn out, warp, or melt with extended use for home heating. Keeping temperatures below the operating range for the metal's longevity impacts the clean burn.

Debbie, Rion, Thomas, et al:
- We've done some prototyping, trying out various refractory materials, and looking for something lightweight, durable, resilient enough to ship well, and ridiculously easy to install. If someone wants to benefit from this work in starting their business, we would want to see some ongoing benefit from that sales.

- Materials, details: We are primarily looking into castable materials, though we have some ideas for using board-type products as well.
Refractory materials cost. There are outfits that do commercial castings, and will create custom molds; the time delays and per-run costs suggest that optimal runs might be in the dozens to hundreds (there's no real advantage between a dozen and a hundred). I could see this working as a small-scale warehouse system, e.g. someone's barn, where you could store a few dozen parts to cushion the time delays in casting more parts. There are also materials that could be used to home-cast by someone with reasonable space and quality control.
Part of our emphasis on prototyping is that we want to be sure that the shippable core design is made of appropriate materials to handle its own internal temperatures, in the range of situations where they are likely to be installed. This means some degree of testing of the actual product will be wise - we thought about doing a 'Beta Kickstarter' where patrons could serve as something between investors, research partners, and customers to site-test the initial run of prototype A or B.

- Our role:
Part of the problem is that we have our hands full between active projects and ongoing medical care for Ernie's injured leg. We live on a mountain that is very nice for long winter writing sessions, but not fun to drive down for package shipping. If someone already has experience with small-scale manufacturing and shipping, they will be way ahead of us in even knowing what questions to ask.
We have shared a lot of detail on these forums already 'pro bono publico,' and would be happy to discuss really detailed aspects with folks who are interested in negotiating fair compensation.
In our perfect world, someone who has built a few backyard versions is going to come out of the woodwork and be super-excited about putting an EZ version on the market. We will work together to prove out the design, using actual obtainable materials. There may be a Kickstarter to get enough funding for EPA certification and initial production, if the partner doesn't want to do conventional capital options (self-funded or venture capital, e.g.). We may have a prototype ready in time for it to be tested and put into production, or we may consult and offer scale drawings to guide the producer in developing the final prototype locally.
We envision ourselves being involved with passing on our best current information, staying informed, and being either on retainer or on a royalty arrangement as long as the people were producing designs based on our initial information. Paul's support and promotion has been very valuable to us and that's our main 'carrot' for the producers to keep us involved (that and the benefit of our experience so far).

- Exclusivity: We are not interested in giving someone exclusive rights, or encouraging a chain of events that could lead to a patent being bought out and suppressed. We are interested in protecting a reasonable degree of trade secrecy that would allow our initial partners to thrive, and to protect the value of bringing us in as consulting partners.
Whether we work exclusively with one person on each design, or help multiple businesses start regionally with a similar design, is up for negotiation. I like the idea that there would be three or four manufacturers in case someone's plans don't pan out, and that there would be three or four regional 'shippers' taking orders (possibly for more than one model). These could be the same people at first, or people could specialize. I could see setting up several different versions based on regional needs (for example a compact/lightweight model being produced in the SouthEast, and a big model produced up north); and/or setting people up to work with different materials near the places they are produced.
In a market that is likely to expand greatly in the coming years/decades, I see room for a cooperative approach that allows each business to profit from both their own products and by selling / acting as an agent for other products. Woodstove shops can also install fireplaces or masonry ovens, inspect chimneys, etc. There's room for a lot more competent people in this field generally.
I like the idea that competition would remain friendly, and that people would give honest reviews of each others' products and sell them (at a commission) if they like the design / performance.

- Examples of cooperative business:
--We have made it easy for people to sign up as affiliates on our online store (Scubbly) and earn a commission by selling our current products from their website. We hope that people will only do this if they actually like and recommend our product, and not give misleading information to make sales.
-- We have helped several builders get started or improve their work, cross-promote with builders and teachers we admire for regional workshops, and hope to train more installers as they present themselves. We tend to recommend people as accurately as we can - if they are reliable and honest, we will help them learn on the job, and recommend them as 'helpers' until they are able to take on jobs entirely on their own expertise. We have served as technical support for many former students to help them succeed with their subsequent projects.
-- We offer certain information for free here (publicly) and by private email: documents like a fill-in-the-blanks Owner Manual to help other builders improve the quality of service they offer to local clients.
-- We've started to negotiate with our local fireplace shop to sell plans and 'kits' for the site-built versions; we hope to do a demonstration for the owner sometime this summer/fall.

- Patent vs. Open Source:
The original Rocket Mass Heater design was published by Ianto Evans as early as 2004; there would have to be a substantial innovation to patent a derivative design. There is room for almost anyone to work in this field. We have done our best to support Ianto's work, protect his copyright on his published materials, and honor him as our mentor; we remain on good terms, and would recommend this approach to others.
Most of our work so far has been released under copyright; we request that builders purchase a copy for each system built to that design. For public resources, we usually either post them on these forums, or print them with fairly clear instructions as to sharing / re-printing.
Frankly the 'honor system' helps us as much as any legal protection: people support our work because they want to see more of it.


Edit: I stand corrected - the issue we had was not with an all-metal design, but with lab testing of smaller and mixed-material models instead of full-mass models.
There are plenty of innovators in this field; there's a cycle of suggesting a modification, testing it, then changing other aspects of the system to fix problems caused by the modification. Many people do this before building the original model, with results that are confusing to people trying to build an un-modified rocket heater.
We would have loved to see similar data on the very simple, un-modified versions that we've been trying to describe. Our 'refinements' mostly involve leaving out any bells and whistles that can cause problems, and nailing down the proportions.
We didn't see any data from Peter documenting performance of the full-scale systems before beginning to modify and test new variations on the design. If it exists, or if there's interest in lending testing equipment to get this data, I'd love to see the results. See Peter's new post for more details.

DragonHeaters- we do know a bit about Peter's work from the ProBoards forums. It is my understanding that he's skipped over the masonry designs and done most of his testing on all-metal prototypes. We wish he would try a masonry version, since he has some very cool toys for testing and we'd love to see similar numbers on our preferred designs.

We have yet to find an affordable metal that doesn't burn out, warp, or melt with extended use for home heating. Keeping temperatures below the operating range for the metal's longevity impacts the clean burn.

Well lets start here... 1st, only the outside shell and the top of the feed tube for Peter's designs are metal. All of his burn tunnel designs are cast refactory not metal. I could not agree more, metal will not take the extreme heat, besides which it would rob the combustion area of heat, reducing efficiency. Peter is VERY familiar with all the temperature requirements of rocket heaters. You could not possibly be familar with his work and write such a paragraph. You should also know that Peter has built full massonry heaters for a living in the past and brings all this expertise to bear in his designs.

At full burn, a 6" dragon burner, with a 30 gallon barrel, produced 1,000°F temps on the barrel top in less than one hour. At the same time, the metal shroud for the burn tunnel and the feed tube only measured 170°F. So metal used as the external box for these heaters is NOT an issue. On the other hand, 1,000°F for the barrel is a problem. For this reason Peter's designs require an upscale of the barrel size over those recommended for traditional rocket heaters.

The Dragon Burner burn tunnel and heat riser are made from refactory materials and are rated for the required temperatures. Furthermore, these designs can only be built with cast materials and not steel. The interior structure of the burn tunnel is too complicated to be built of steel (at a reasonable cost). Even our barrel supports (offered as an option with the Dragon Burners to speed construction) are rated for 3,000°F.

We have the same nifty toys to test exhaust if you would like to send us yours to test.

Materials, details: We are primarily looking into castable materials, though we have some ideas for using board-type products as well.

I can not see how plain board materials, while cheaper could possibly hold up to the rigors of a burn tunnel. Besides that, a flat sided burn tunnel made from board or other material can not compete with the optimized internal structures of the dragon heaters. Peter van den Berg's complex burn tunnel design provides superior turbulence, which results in more complete combustion and efficiency. There may be some other interior shapes that could be designed to serve the same functions, which might work, but a plain vanilla, straight wall burn tunnel, will always be at a disadvantage, efficiency wise. The data and reasons for this can be found at the proboards forum.

So then the only point is to provide one cheaper, and I would say good luck on that one.

In our perfect world, someone who has built a few backyard versions is going to come out of the woodwork and be super-excited about putting an EZ version on the market.

Really, what could be easier than the Dragon Burner? It consists of 3 pieces, takes 10 min., max, to assemble.

There may be a Kickstarter to get enough funding for EPA certification and initial production, if the partner doesn't want to do conventional capital options (self-funded or venture capital, e.g.)

Rocket heaters, as constant burn heaters, are already EPA exempt. There is not even an EPA protocol for testing constant burn heaters. UL listing is another matter, for that you must have a full stove, not a shippable core.

I could see setting up several different versions based on regional needs (for example a compact/lightweight model being produced in the SouthEast, and a big model produced up north); and/or setting people up to work with different materials near the places they are produced.

This makes no sense to me. The material chosen for the burn tunnel should be the best choice for the application. That is, the lightest weight (i.e. insulative) which can meet the performance requirements. Where it is installed in the world does not matter. You always want the most efficient casting you can get.

Scattering production around the country sounds like a good idea until one starts to investigate the cost of molds and production. Multiple production molds are a big money pit. If you have recieved bids on having molds made, then you know that to produce a qty of such molds for commercial production is a VERY significant investment.

I like the idea that competition would remain friendly, and that people would give honest reviews of each others' products and sell them (at a commission) if they like the design / performance.

Here, here.

We have an affiliate program and dealer program why not join ours?

http://www.dragonheaters.com/

I can not see how plain board materials, while cheaper could possibly hold up to the rigors of a burn tunnel.

I don't see where Erica suggested this. I think erica has been exploring the use of the board material for the riser. Her hesitation has been in binding the material. Could you please help me find the post where Erica is talking about using the board materials for a burn tunnel?

It seems your design features this and I could not find the mention of the binding, nor could I find detailed enough pictures. Link?

Trying to guess leaves me with it looks like some sort of screw. And that makes me wonder about leaks and what temperatures the screw can deal with.

Really, what could be easier than the Dragon Burner?

Well, since you asked, something that we have come up with and you are not yet familiar with.

We have an affiliate program and dealer program why not join ours?

The question "why not?" has always bugged me. It's like I have to do a thing unless I lay out a convincing proof to the alternative path.


I plow through a massive list of things to do each day, and at the end of the day, the "to do" list is longer than at the beginning of the day. When you sent me the email, I looked at the product and came to the conclusion that there were several points I didn't like. I thought about contacting you and having that conversation, but thought my time would be better spent on other projects. Plus, I thought the direction that E&E were going in was more promising. I think the name of the product is good. And maybe some day I will do the affiliate thing with your outfit. But not right now.

Plus, I just deleted a rather awful post by one of your people. So I'm really not feeling it right now.

There has been some mention of open source. I think it is great if somebody builds a few hundred rocket mass heaters, comes up with some excellent innovations and shares that knowledge openly. That's great.

Of course, if that same person chooses to go into business and do open source for all of the knowledge, that's great too.

And if they decide to go into business and keep their tricks a bit private, that is also great.

Something that is not okay by me: is somebody attempting to shame the innovator into open source. If you want to see stuff go into open source, you have to do the work.

-----

From something I deleted was a suggestion that some people were ignorant of the latest and greatest in rocket mass heaters. I would like to offer the other perspective: there are hundreds of people submitting their designs for freakshows of flaming death and calling them "rocket mass heaters" and demanding a blessing on the design. Some of them even have fire running through them. Some of them even roughly resemble a rocket mass heater. The shear volume is unnerving. And, naturally, each "innovator" is sure that their design is "THE latest and greatest in rocket mass heaters." Naturally, these folks want to have a private discussion and they have no idea that there is a parade of folks also wanting a similar private discussion.

I don't know about E&E, but for a lot of these, I see several hours going into a discussion about their designs, and then after I have conveyed my thoughts, the other party comes to the conclusion that we are now best friends and should talk every day on all topics, plus work through some more "design improvements."

I spend about 8% of my life on rocket mass heater stuff. I think E&E spend about 55% of their life on rocket mass heater stuff. And a lot of time is spent on "how to do the most good with the limited amount of time." And a lot of that comes down to trying leverage four hours to reach thousands of people instead of using that same four hours to help one person (who is utterly certain that they are really helping us).

The new DVDs will be out soon and it has a lot of detail about the shippable core designs that me, ernie and erica have come up with.

Plus, I just deleted a rather awful post by one of your people. So I'm really not feeling it right now.

Well I did not see the post, but I can 100% assure you it was not written by anyone working here.

Sandy,

Since you wrote

You never bothered to comment on whatever design improvements you think would be useful, perhaps you like to elaborate here.

I think I have now taken a great deal of time. I addressed a few things, but most importantly I am concerned about some points you directed to my good friend Erica. I asked you

Could you please help me find the post where Erica is talking about using the board materials for a burn tunnel?

Could you help me find this post please?

I mis-understood her post that the board was being considered for a burn tunnel, since she did not specify where she was thinking of using it, I assumed that she was talking about using it through out the core. So the clarification is good for all.