rocket mass heater dvd*
Permies likes plants and the farmer likes siberian pea tree shrub/tree seeds permies
  Search | Permaculture Wiki | Recent Topics | Flagged Topics | Hot Topics | Zero Replies | World Domination!
Register / Login


permies » forums » growies » plants
Bookmark "siberian pea tree shrub/tree seeds" Watch "siberian pea tree shrub/tree seeds" New topic
Author

siberian pea tree shrub/tree seeds

Brenda Groth
volunteer

Joined: Feb 01, 2009
Posts: 4433
Location: North Central Michigan
    
    8
i have just been given a good deal of viable siberian pea tree seeds..they are a small tree or shrub..nitrogen fixers..nurse..and i guess they have edible pods and make good fodder.

i would like input from anyone and everyone about these..the seeds were from my sister and she was able to sprout over 100 seeds by soaking them for about a  month..i am curious about some more perm info about the use of these..i know what i have read in literature ..but literature is very limited concerning this tree.

i don't know what the expected height and breadth of the tree is in our zone 4/5 area..or if it is weedy or invasive (opportunistic)..and what uses it would provide other than the ones i mentioned above.

Gaia's garden did mention windbreak and hedgerow


Brenda

Bloom where you are planted.
http://restfultrailsfoodforestgarden.blogspot.com/
Brenda Groth
volunteer

Joined: Feb 01, 2009
Posts: 4433
Location: North Central Michigan
    
    8
ok so no one has said anything yet about the siberian pea shrubs but i have done a little looking and have found out a few more good things..on my own. still not sure how big they get as adults ..height and breadth..but think i'll put some in since we got some rain overnight and this morning.
                                  


Joined: Mar 22, 2010
Posts: 18
Ahhh the Caragana Arborescens, we only know them too well here in Saskatchewan. (zone 2b/3a)

I've seen them over 20 feet tall. In our yard they are trimmed as a normal 7 ft hedge. Every once in a while, they've been cut down to the ball to encourage thicker growth for privacy due to our poor trimming skills We don't have a problem with it spreading. If we want to kill a section, then the root has to be completely dug up, or it will sprout again.

From what I've heard, they like a hot dry summer, and a cold winter, no facts to back that up though. They don't seem to like too much moisture.

Not much seems to want to grow close on the north side of the hedge, maybe due to the amount of shade. Haven't tried the south since its a driveway.

I've included a picture of the caragana that's been allowed to grow.


[Thumbnail for caragana.jpg]

paul wheaton
steward

Joined: Apr 01, 2005
Posts: 15265
Location: missoula, montana (zone 4)
    ∞
They are frequently used as a hedge.

The seeds are small and have this interesting thing where they pop open when ready - flinging seed. 

The seed is apparently good chicken food.  But I would guess that it doesn't make a lot of chicken food.


sign up for my daily-ish email / rocket mass heater 4-DVD set / permaculture playing cards
Robert Ray
volunteer

Joined: Jul 06, 2009
Posts: 1327
Location: Cascades of Oregon
    
  12
Grows great here.
I just bend over a limb to get the hedge row going.
Easily a foot of growth a year for me.
Flower is edible in salads, though I've never tried it, am told the peas are edible but bitter.


"There is enough in the world for everyones needs, but not enough for everyones greed"
(Buckman)
Matt Ferrall


Joined: Dec 26, 2008
Posts: 555
Location: Western WA,usda zone 6/7,80inches of rain,250feet elevation
    
    4
I have found it to be adaptable to many northern climates as it does great for me here in the PacificNW with 70inches of rain but also thrives over the mountains with 15.It seems less adaptable to soil types as clay soil planted ones I have seen were struggling.It isnt too edible by people .I got sick eating a bowl full that had soaked overnight and were cooked for a while.It can tolerate some shade and can be quite productive.It is very easy to start from seed in quantity and might be more edible if sprouted?


There is nothing permanent in a culture dependent on such temporaries as civilization.

www.feralfarmagroforestry.com
                                  


Joined: Mar 22, 2010
Posts: 18
This thing must just grow no matter what. We have clay soil, it doesn't seem to care!
Brenda Groth
volunteer

Joined: Feb 01, 2009
Posts: 4433
Location: North Central Michigan
    
    8
thanks so much this is the type of information i was seeking. I have an area that is high and dry, along a fenceline but the other fenceline is clay and low and wet..

i think i'll try some of the seeds on both.

i can see from the size in the photo..thanks so much..about how far apart i should space them..looks like they should be at least 16 " apart?

I'm looking for a privacy hedge that the critters can munch on..so it looks like it will be perfect for that..i have a lot of seeds ..i gave some to our neighbors.

one area i'm considering is our east property line which goes across a field that is dotted with alder and evergreens..i could walk the property line and put in a few seeds in the gaps between the evergreens..and then i have a few gaps in my windbreak on the west property line as well..

i honestly didn't realize they would get 20 ' tall and so big..so this is quite a surprise to me..and they would be absolutely perfect between the pines to fill the gaps..thanks.
                                  


Joined: Mar 22, 2010
Posts: 18
looks like they should be at least 16 " apart?

Seems like that's what they end up doing. In our hedge here the main root clumps are decently spaced, enough that if we trimmed the middle it could be a narrow path through. If you want em thick, I would think to plant them a little closer, they'll space themselves out if they need it.

Oh I just remembered that I read one place about Caragana being a coppicable wood, since it does grow fairly thick. So another use would be firewood every x(unsure) years.

Here are a few more pics of that old Caragana, its over 30 years old.


[Thumbnail for 100_1700.JPG]

[Thumbnail for 100_1701.JPG]

[Thumbnail for 100_1702.JPG]

[Thumbnail for 100_1703.JPG]

                                  


Joined: Mar 22, 2010
Posts: 18
Oh, and in the first pic, the small hedge behind the 2 apple trees is also Caragana.
Brenda Groth
volunteer

Joined: Feb 01, 2009
Posts: 4433
Location: North Central Michigan
    
    8
lovely photos and very helpful information..thanks so much I LOVE THIS FORUM
Brenda Groth
volunteer

Joined: Feb 01, 2009
Posts: 4433
Location: North Central Michigan
    
    8
ok starting at 6 pm today 5 days of occasional rain in the forcast..so i'm about to go out and walk the property lines with my envelope of sweet pea tree seeds..wish me luck.
                                  


Joined: Mar 22, 2010
Posts: 18
You've got Caraganas.. You don't need luck! 
Brenda Groth
volunteer

Joined: Feb 01, 2009
Posts: 4433
Location: North Central Michigan
    
    8
  OK the deed is done.

i went out yesterday and walked the open property lines and placed a few siberian pea tree seeds in the gappy areas in my windbreaks and privacy screens, I had a few seeds left after doing that so i put a few seeds in two areas around my pond and a few seeds in some open areas in my little woods directly north of the pond and food forest garden..mostly as forage for the wildlife.

we'll see what comes of them..woke up to rain this morning, and it has raind for over 3 hours so far today..off and on rain now forcasted for the next 5 days..so..they should get a good start.

i'm fairly excited to see what becomes of this adventure
          


Joined: Mar 17, 2010
Posts: 18
Location: Saskatchewan Zone 2b-3a maybe 3b
Brenda Groth wrote:
  OK the deed is done.

i went out yesterday and walked the open property lines and placed a few siberian pea tree seeds in the gappy areas in my windbreaks and privacy screens, I had a few seeds left after doing that so i put a few seeds in two areas around my pond and a few seeds in some open areas in my little woods directly north of the pond and food forest garden..mostly as forage for the wildlife.

we'll see what comes of them..woke up to rain this morning, and it has raind for over 3 hours so far today..off and on rain now forcasted for the next 5 days..so..they should get a good start.

i'm fairly excited to see what becomes of this adventure


Brenda, please  update: how do the seeds do. This interests me and how fast they grow?
Thank you!
Brenda Groth
volunteer

Joined: Feb 01, 2009
Posts: 4433
Location: North Central Michigan
    
    8
will do if they grow..i planted them right out in the field and here and there around the yard.
Marla Kacey


Joined: Jul 07, 2011
Posts: 37
Location: Wyoming Zone 4
Hey, Brenda! How'd your siberian pea shrubs do? I just ordered some for my yard and have been doing some more research on them.

Did they sprout? If so, what was the germination rate (apx), and how much have they grown since July 2010? Did some do better than others?

Thanks so much for any info you can offer.
Joseph Fields


Joined: Feb 23, 2011
Posts: 155
Location: Berea, Kentucky
    
    1
Do they hold leaves in the winter or go bare?
mike mclellan


Joined: Nov 13, 2011
Posts: 78
Location: Helena, MT zone 4
    
    3
Joseph Fields wrote:Do they hold leaves in the winter or go bare?


They are deciduous. I've grown them in both Nevada and now Montana. Not a leaf left in winter! Tough as nails to boot. My neighbor grew them in Casper as a hedge. Used to prune the heck out of them and they always bounced back. I have seen them grow 18 feet or so tall in Bozeman, MT area. Mine are strictly dryland in the Helena area and are about six feet tall. Bozeman gets about 7 inches or more rain than we do around here. They appeared to be a great privacy screen. JL Hudson seeds has some good advice as to how to treat the seeds prior to planting.
Brenda Groth
volunteer

Joined: Feb 01, 2009
Posts: 4433
Location: North Central Michigan
    
    8
I planted them out in a partially open field with some alder and evergreens spotty here and there..I don't know if they sprouted or if they are growing, won't know until they get big enough to SEE..I put them near the alders for the nitrogen fixing..just barely covered with good soil..barely..but I would imagine the little guys would take a few years before they get big enough to identify them.

I'll come back and let you know IF I find any of them this spring..it will have been 2 years.
Tim Southwell


Joined: Nov 07, 2011
Posts: 89
Location: Hamilton, MT
mike mclellan wrote:
Joseph Fields wrote:Do they hold leaves in the winter or go bare?


They are deciduous. I've grown them in both Nevada and now Montana. Not a leaf left in winter! Tough as nails to boot. My neighbor grew them in Casper as a hedge. Used to prune the heck out of them and they always bounced back. I have seen them grow 18 feet or so tall in Bozeman, MT area. Mine are strictly dryland in the Helena area and are about six feet tall. Bozeman gets about 7 inches or more rain than we do around here. They appeared to be a great privacy screen. JL Hudson seeds has some good advice as to how to treat the seeds prior to planting.


Mike,
Looking to institute a living hedge concept on my properties in Hamilton & Darby, MT. The way you describe it, they sound perfect. Question... how do the local wildlife treat the new plantings? I know the deer are always curious, but wonder if the new plants need a few years wire protection from destruction or will the Deer find them unpalatable? Let me know, thanks, Tim


Tim Southwell

www.facebook.com/abcacres
John Polk
steward

Joined: Feb 20, 2011
Posts: 6593
Location: Moving to: NE Washington USDA zone 5 Western steppes to the Rockies
    
135
According to JL Hudson, Seedsman, they make a good deer browse.

—Caragana arborescens. (c,h) CARA-2. Packet: $2.00
Oz: $6.00, 1/4 lb: $18.00
'SIBERIAN PEATREE'. Showy bright yellow 3/4" long pea-like flowers in May and June. Very hardy small tree to 20 feet, with feathery foliage. Siberia and Manchuria. Good windbreak or hedge, good deer browse and fuelwood. Bark used for rope. Young green pods eaten as a vegetable in Siberia, ripe dry seeds eaten like beans and contain 36% protein, and they are good poultry feed. Germinates in 2 - 3 weeks.


Sounds like they would need good protection until well established.


mike mclellan


Joined: Nov 13, 2011
Posts: 78
Location: Helena, MT zone 4
    
    3
,
Looking to institute a living hedge concept on my properties in Hamilton & Darby, MT. The way you describe it, they sound perfect. Question... how do the local wildlife treat the new plantings? I know the deer are always curious, but wonder if the new plants need a few years wire protection from destruction or will the Deer find them unpalatable? Let me know, thanks, Tim


Tim,
My caragana out here in the Helena Valley show no signs of any significant browsing by the deer. A neighbor just down the road has a 100+ foot hedge of the stuff that is totally exposed to any deer that wants a free meal and they don't appear to receive any significant attention from the local mule deer. Other hedges I've seen around the area look the same- trimmed hard by people i.e. flat topped at a given height. JL Hudson may be correct that deer browse them in some areas or parts of the country but not right around here, anyway. I still plan to put tree covers around mine that I'm planting this spring to give them a first year of protection. I would think they would make an excellent hedge for you especially with your higher precip than we get over here. Good luck.
Saybian Morgan
volunteer

Joined: Apr 22, 2011
Posts: 580
Location: Lower Mainland British Columbia Canada Zone 8a/ Manchester Jamaica
    
    8
Is the caragana a stick fast tree like a willow? basically will hard or softwood cuttings readily root?
I've been looking for this tree for over 2 years to feed my ducks, and I don't really stand a chance starting from seed unless it grows like a kudzu "which id also kill for"
I cry inside a little bit each day as I see this thread back in the recent topics with words like "100 ft hedge" and "grows wild round here".
I live in the lower mainland of bc and the closest i've even herd of the tree being available is on the other side of the rocky mountains, since this thread started all I do is scan peoples ornamental gardens looking for the arborenses leaf pattern.
This is worse that me seeing typhus latifolia all over and not being able to find a single spot where I can dig it up without getting arrested or hit by a car.
mike mclellan


Joined: Nov 13, 2011
Posts: 78
Location: Helena, MT zone 4
    
    3

March 1, 2012 11:32:25 PM MST Subject: siberian pea tree shrub/tree seeds
Is the caragana a stick fast tree like a willow? basically will hard or softwood cuttings readily root?
I've been looking for this tree for over 2 years to feed my ducks, and I don't really stand a chance starting from seed unless it grows like a kudzu "which id also kill for"


Caragana probably doesn't root as easily as willow does from cuttings. I plan to try some softwood cuttings this year to see if I can increase my population. I would use a rooting hormone or make one from boiled willow twigs as a presoak before planting. My guess is that it will work but I'm not an expert at all. JL Hudson sells the seed for this species- http://jlhudsonseeds.net/SeedlistCA.htm. As they are in California, I don't known if your being in BC will pose a problem for shipping, customs, what have you.

I have a hard time calling it a tree as it grows as a multibranched shrub whereas I've always seen a tree referred to as such due to having a single main stem. The photos earlier in this thread are very accurate as to its growth habit That being said, I've seen it grow in soils up to pH near 9 in Nevada. Don't know how acidic you are west of the Cascades in rain country and if this would affect the success of the plant. It such an overall winner, it seems it would be worth a try.
Cal Burns


Joined: Mar 23, 2011
Posts: 102
Wonder how that would grow in our Texas (zone 8b) alkaline clay? Am looking for something like this as a privacy hedge that would be edible and a nitrogen fixer.
Brad Davies
volunteer

Joined: Sep 22, 2011
Posts: 212
Location: Clarkston, MI
    
    8
Awesome info!

I picked up about 100 seeds this winter to plant out in the spring.

Any updates on the progress Brenda?


SE, MI, Zone 5b "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work."
~Thomas Edison
Brenda Groth
volunteer

Joined: Feb 01, 2009
Posts: 4433
Location: North Central Michigan
    
    8
ok if they were planted by seed 2 years ago, what am I looking for as babies..I'm sure that some of them likely took..but I'm not sure what I'm looking for for little ones..

will they bloom when young, and if so, what do the blooms look like and when? (Michigan)..right now I haven't been out in the field/baby woods to look to see IF I can see any, fruit trees are in bloom here now (way too early)..but I'll watch for them and let you know if I find anything up.
Matt Smith


Joined: Feb 04, 2012
Posts: 181
Location: Central Ohio, Zone 6A - High water table, heavy clay.
I'm laughing my ass off reading this thread. I planted around 20 of these buggers beside a compost pile along the edge of a barn 2 years ago. Most got browsed to death (most likely rabbits or groundhogs), and the ones that have survived are almost exactly the same size as they were then. And to think, when I planted them I was worried about them being invasive...

And this is in an area besides an old manure/compost pile where we consistently get two foot tall dandelion flowers. If they don't like moisture, they must really not like it. That whole area is pretty swampy.
Annie Sneath


Joined: Jun 25, 2012
Posts: 1
Question. How many seeds per foot should we plant to ensure growing from seed? When I lived north and on the praries it seemed they just spread to cover old abandond farm yards where they had been planted as hedges. We have about a 300 foot long empy fence line I would like to put these in. Our ground is sandy and rocky, and we get a lot of snow in winter, wet springs, and dry hotter summers. Just about like the praries, but not so cold in the winter. I will be able to get a good suply of seed soon and would like to know when I can just broad cast the seed and cover with loose dirt.
Deloris Veldenheim


Joined: Mar 19, 2014
Posts: 1
Location: Colorado High
http://www.fs.fed.us/rm/pubs_other/wo_AgricHandbook727/wo_AgricHandbook727_321_323.pdf

Found a link to an in-depth look at these plants by the gov. Most useful link on these plants I've found yet.

- Deloris
Erica Wisner
volunteer

Joined: Feb 10, 2009
Posts: 747
Location: Okanogan Highlands, Washington
    
  89
BC - I recently got a plant from a fellow permie here in the Okanogan Highlands. Looking into whether it's considered invasive.
(Isn't that the weirdest thing... we want plants that will grow well here ... but not TOO well, not grow on their own or anything.)

But I don't want to ruin our attempts to restore native edibles with a non-native, non-palatable invasion, no matter how much the bees like it.
The lady I got it from loves it for attracting pollinators, says it's not listed as invasive locally, and indeed I can't find anything saying it's considered invasive for Washington state.

But I did find invasive listings for Minnesota and other parts of the Midwest, so it might be wise to watch it there. (the OP is from the midwest, yes?)

Here are some other useful links about this plant, which include pictures of the flowers and leaves. Its leaves at this time of year are like a miniature pea or mimosa, compound with narrow, oval leaflets, and the flowers are a bright yellow, slightly smaller version of a pea-flower like you might see in the garden.

Purdue plant profile (interesting info , no pictures)
http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/duke_energy/Caragana_arborescens.html

Proposed restricted for Wisconsin:
http://dnr.wi.gov/topic/Invasives/fact/SiberianPeashrub.html

Invasive listing for Minnesota:
http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/invasives/terrestrialplants/woody/siberianpeashrub.html

Lots of pictures of foliage and flowers, and map for parts of USA where it's considered invasive:
http://www.invasiveplantatlas.org/subject.html?sub=9925#maps

USDA range map (states where it's been observed to grow), tabs of lots of other info:
http://plants.usda.gov/core/profile?symbol=CAAR18

Wikipedia article (general info)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caragana_arborescens

A site that says it's somewhat edible by humans, in moderation and in season (early leaves, blossoms, early pods, cooked later pods or seeds)
http://rawedibleplants.blogspot.com/2013/05/siberian-pea-tree-caragana-arborescens.html

I guess I'll keep it for now, and keep an eye on it. Anybody with warnings for eastern WA, I'd welcome advice. I can get rid of it if I see tons of seedlings next year, but if I have birds and geese eating the seeds, I could be unleashing them beyond my personal control even in one season. But I guess as it was grown locally, it's already been released for several years. If it's a problem, I'm only part of it.

The plant I have has been partially trained to take a tree shape, and it looks like it will be an attractive tree.
Thorns are mainly on smaller branches, the trunk is not thorny, and it looks like I can continue trimming it up.
We'll see if it gets browsed - but the sites I saw suggest it's not a preferred browse. Will keep it behind some fencing, and use a pepper-spray to discourage browsing of the upper branches.

-Erica


Play with nature, make nifty stuff:
www.ErnieAndErica.info
Denis Huel


Joined: Jul 04, 2013
Posts: 74
    
    2
Siberian pea tree or Caragana has been planted by the millions in yard and field shelterbelts here in Saskatchewan. My grandfather used to say that the only way to kill a Caragana is with too much water.

Never knew anyone to eat the seeds but as kids we ate the flowers. It is kind of attractive when it first leafs out in the spring but is drab in the summer and it will lose most of its leaves by late summer if it is hot and dry.

It does not spread aggressively in dry situations but will in areas of better moisture. I have seen it spread aggressively under aspen stands replacing diverse understories of beaked hazelnut, Saskatoon, pincherry, rose, chokecherry and a variety of native herbs with a nearly impenetrable thicket of Caragana seedlings, not exactly an improvement.

Deer do not seem to bother it much but cattle will destroy field shelterbelts if fields are converted to pasture and heavily grazed. In late summer after the seeds have shed, mourning doves can often be found foraging for seeds on the ground under the shelterbelts.

I have started to cut the few that I have down, making brush piles around some seedling oaks that I have planted to protected them from browsing by deer. They can be cut repeatedly without any ill effect and be used to produce woody material for a variety of uses.
 
 
subject: siberian pea tree shrub/tree seeds
 
cast iron skillet 49er

more from paul wheaton's glorious empire of web junk: cast iron skillet diatomaceous earth sepp holzer raised garden beds raising chickens lawn care flea control missoula electric heaters permaculture videos permaculture books