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organic vs. sustainable | (Read 647 times) |
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paul wheaton
Administrator
Posts: 1471
western WA
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May 21, 2007, 11:04:21 AM |
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I was reading a thread on a farmer forum and came across a thread where a farmer sold organic produce and then mentioned to someone that he used roundup on some ditches. A woman then became terribly upset and hollered "that's not sustainable!" So the farmer was thinking that he should brush up on "sustainable".
Lots and lots of discussion. Some a bit on the angry side.
I think that both of these terms have been used to mean so many things that they are damn near useless. Maybe it is time to come up with some new words so we can communicate about this sort of thing effectively.
Or maybe we could have terms like "Organic level 1" and "Organic level 8" etc.
Sustainable is a term that can talk about one property, or about the whole planet. Context makes a lot of difference. To some folks, "sustainable" can mean not losing organic matter in the soil. To others, it can mean being able to live on their property with zero interaction with anything off of their property line.
I read something recently (in permaculture circles) about how trying to be sustainable was a weak goal at best: a good land steward would influence the land to become richer without human input. (Granted, these recipes are usually about spending a few years getting some new eco-system to take root and then you walk away and the land becomes more abundant every year without further input)
When I buy my food, there are certain things that are really important to me. If I were to buy from a farmer that sold me some organic produce and then later mentioned that he used roundup on ditches, I would be upset. I would feel that this person plays the organic game to harvest money from people that believe in organic principles. But that person doesn't really understand why I choose to buy organic. I would choose to not buy from that person in the future. I would choose to buy from a farmer that has agricultural philosophies closer to my own.
What do you think "organic" means? Or "sustainable"?
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pixelphoto
Posts: 44
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June 20, 2007, 01:09:22 PM |
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Here are the definitions I use and by the way i think I remember seeing that post on another forum I may have responded there as well.
You can be organic without being sustainable under my definitions. But it would hard to be sustainable without also being organic.
Organic - Means foods or crops produced without pesticides or chemical fertilizers. Naturally grown foods or crops. Before World War II all farms and crops were organic. But the use of pesticides like Agent Orange found their way into the Agriculture uses on farms after the war.
Certified Organic - The same as Organic only you are certified by a certifying organization that makes sure you meet all of the USDA rules and regulations. Becoming a Certified Organic Farm means your farm and your practices on your farm meet strict regulations. It also allows you to use the words Certified Organic in your advertising. A uncertified farm is not allowed by law to use Organic or Certified Organic in their advertising under the USDA law. Because of the cost of becoming certified and the strict rules and regulations that have to be adhered to Certified Organic Foods often sell for higher prices.
Permaculture - Originally started in Australia, its a term that means much like being self sustainable and organic and green wise all in one Permaculture can best be described as a moral and ethical design system applicable to food production and land use, as well as community building. It seeks the creation of productive and sustainable ways of living by integrating ecology, landscape, organic gardening, architecture, and agro-forestry.
Self Sustainable - means you or your farm are able to sustain itself without outside needs. Being able to grow your own crops and produce on your farm and sell them to make enough money to pay for themselves would help you be more self sustainable. Saving seed, having animals that create manure for fertilizer, growing enough for yourself and enough to feed your animals. These would also be ways of being self sustainable.
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alexisavoire
Posts: 120
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March 03, 2008, 01:10:53 AM |
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sustainable maximizes minimal resources.
organic is one of the resources maximized. organic is a minimal resource, although it seems inexhaustible, it is in fact heavily dependent on a number of highly variable factors. we cannot control those factors and would be wise to stop trying to do so but that leaves us vulnerable so resource depletion.
we are also organic. and organic can also mean "intrinsic." both concepts are relevant to "sustainable."
politically speaking organic is a selling point that appears on a label and sustainable is political stance that includes the labelling of certain consumables as organic in order to distinguish between "them" and "us." Politically speaking sustainable means in compliance with regulation regarding the production of organic; sustainable community as a concept of balanced exchange among participants has barely got off the ground in the thirty years or so it was introduced, mainly because the ideals were immediately whisked away into advertising and political slogans and from there into regulatory limbo.
"we" are all us who are also all of "them" in my opinion so ranchers and vegans have a relationship even though they appear to have nothing to do with one another. With that in mind, I dislike the campaign to isolate them from one another while we try to pretend we can get sustainable community going without one or the other. there is the dead end we have reached regarding a solution we can all live with, it seems.
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