a paul wheaton community

This is sort of like a survey.

The question is:  Hey, I have a big gob of land, and I have room for you.  Wanna come be part of my community?  This is a situation where I am 100% in charge.  You have no official vote.  The only way you get to have things that you want is by persuading me.  Yes, there's permaculture (what I call permaculture).  You can rent a wofati.  you can build your own wofati.  You can rent a room in a community wofati.   You can build another eco style of eco building if you convince me to give the green light.

If your answer is "no", "hell no", "never", "probably not", etc. then leave no response.

For the rest of you I want you to pick a number from 1 to 10.  

The values of 0 to 0.99 are for all of the "no" responses.

The values of 1.00 to 10.00 are where 1.00 is "yeah, I could see that ... hypothetically ... probably ... I think that could work. I would want to get more details before comitting and I would have to think about it and sleep on it for a year or so ..."  and 10.0 is "give me the word and I'll be on a bus in an hour."

I suspect that for every response in the range of 1 to 10 there were a thousand people that would be in the range of 0.00 to 0.99.  

But I don't need to find a hundred thousand people that would suffer under my tyranny.  I want to make the point that there could be 10,000 different communities set up like this.  I would manage one.  And, yes, I would call it a community even though there is no consensus.  Some folks might like one of the other 9,999.  And I would just need a dozen or so that would groove on mine.  A dozen people that would think that being a peasant in my fiefdom has the potential of a life better than ... well ...  living conventionally ... or living in an consensus based IC ... or maybe whatever they are doing now.

So this is an experiment of sorts.  Is there one person?  Might there be a dozen people?

Wanna come be part of my community?

Ive lived in similar situations and now find myself in charge.Cant say one is better than the other and I will enjoy when I can leave the resposibility of ownership behind.Despite what some think,I find higherarchical organization to be a "community".Lead,follow,or get out of the way is a motto I love.And thats coming from someone who doesnt mind following sometimes.

Your system isn't that different from the one we live under - expect that ours is reciprocal.  We call it the One No Vote - and we've been doing it for 43 years. http://www.lafayettemorehouse.com/one_no-vote.html

I wasn't going to reply to this at first as I'm so happy where I am that I don't think there's much that would persuade me to move, so I'd score 'less than one'. 

But, as it's a survey and I'm not sure how hypothetical it is, I thought I'd join in as though I hadn't already found my niche. 

In which case I'd be a 1.0 - ie, I'd want a heck of a lot more details before signing up for anything, and I'd want to know where it was based, would I need a visa, is there any money involved, is there work available or would I also need an income, can I bring the family, do I get kicked out when I'm ancient and can't work any more, is there really a bus, what sort of security do I have, can I leave if it doesn't work out, is there anything to stop you turning into a tyrant... 

The devil is in the details, so it's hard to give a rating. Zero if the big gob of land is in Texas or Arizona. I *must* have rain...

But assuming we're talking about 25" to 40" of wet stuff in a year, I would be very interested, at least a 5.

The most successful permie community I personally know is an owner-in-charge. Since I know Paul, I know that he is not off on one of those communitarian byways that I find less than appealing, such as submission to the great leader's religious and/or sexual proclivities (and it's amazing how often the two go together).

I am fine with being a follower, although I am not necessarily a *quiet* follower.

5

I live in a large urban intentional community now, and long to find the way that more of what I stick in my mouth is, well, sane. I'd be interested in coming for an extended internship for a year or more in the interest of learning how to support the social work going on here in Chicago with truly healthy food.

1.00 - I'd be very interested in this, but I've never had this sort of lifestyle and probably couldn't commit to it for another year at least. And to echo what everyone else is saying, I would really love to hear more details. Specifically where the land is located and just how tyrannical our feudal overlord would be.

Awesome.

I suppose I've been thinking about this for years.  And part of making videos, podcasts, forum posts, articles, etc. is all part of projecting my stuff so people can see if I would be acceptable as supreme commander.

I think "tyrant", "evil" and similar terms are subjective and relative.  I suspect that most people  (billions) would find the idea of being part of my community unacceptable.  And that's great.  And there would be a few (dozens) that would find that being part of my community would be a perfect fit for their whole life.  The key is that dozens is plenty.  Too many.  So if we did this democratically, the votes would be a landslide "hell no!" that doesn't matter.  What matters is that there are ... enough.

Jocelyn and I just finished a 2 hour podcast that should be up in a couple of weeks that will have a lot more info.  And I think there will need to be two or three more podcasts.  And I should probably write something.

I've been kicking around an idea similar to this for a while as well.  I even made a subreddit,  www.reddit.com/r/township.  It's kinda sparce now, but I'm still fleshing out ideas etc.

The important realization with any system like this is that while Paul can play "King" all day,  He will have to work with people to get anything accomplished.  His authority only exists if we give it to him and the option to walk away at any time will hopefully keep him, or any other "ruler" in check.  My biggest concern would be if a waiting list for access developed.  Spend anytime in a bar or club with a line out the door and you'll find terrible people who don't value you as you're easily replaceable.

I would be a "1", kind of.

I am looking for a permaculture based community to be a part of, but I have very little interest in all things being decided by the almighty Paul. In a year or so, I'd like to join/start a co-operative permaculture community somewhere.

If the defining aspect of decision making in this community wasn't "all things come to Paul" then I would be a 10, maybe 11.

I have an on-line community I manage.  I mean, other than this one.  The other one is about 20 times bigger than this one getting about 150,000 people per day.

The site is run by about 40 volunteers.  I play a rather small role there because the volunteers do such an excellent job. 

Many years ago I made this private document that outlined the decision making process.  I made this document in 2004 or so when we had a lot of staff bickering about things and the over vibe of the site was getting pretty icky.  Now people don't get mad at each other.  They just sometimes get mad at me.  But it passes.  And we go on.  After all, the site belongs to me.  The only real option is to leave.  But .... it is an on-line family.  Of really cool and decent people.  And time passes and things get back to being awesome.

So I dug up that document and made it permies.  This is the document unaltered.

independent / consensus / dictator hybrid

Sure lets go. 10
I have a design certification, natural building and organic gardening experience.
I am also a polyamorous female with half a dozen friends who might follow.

It's been 2 weeks since I left California to backpack around the eastern half of the country. I'm not sure of my path on my way back yet but I would love to come visit in the next few months. I have just started learning about permaculture. I'm starting to talk with a friend back home about getting started with aquaponics. If anybody has any other places I should visit on my way please pm me.

I'm a 1.

This might be a useful method for transitioning from long time city dweller to country homesteader without the fat chunk of cash for some land.

about a 3

that is to say if I could find someone to take over my place, and a good school nearby I'd spend about two years renting a small space while I finished my degree, but I'm not the sort to spend a lifetime living under someone else's rules. Just ask my ma. That and I'd always have a backup plan for if you threw me out. because you know I'll express myself every time I disagree with you not to the point of not going along with the decision, but I have this deep need to know my voice has been heard before I bow to authority.

My initial response was a resounding "you must be insane hell no". But somehow, the concept is sticking in my head, possibly because of major life transitions I'm going through — and everything now seems possible and at least worthy of consideration.

But the major question I have is "Why"? Would you really want to live with a bunch of people who are not on equal footing with you? Doesn't that immediately set up an "us vs. him" power dynamic? It seems doomed to fail, if so. I think that people must have stake in a community of any kind, or they will just be "kids", ie, doing what they can get away with. You would be setting yourself up in a parental role as Benevolent Dictator (or BD), and it's unlikely that you would be seen as an equal. Ultimately, to spare yourself the agony of neverending consensus meetings (if that's part of what's behind this?), you would lose out on first quality relationships because of the power imbalance.

It's the same in the larger society. Those at the bottom with zero power can sometimes seem to have no social brakes on their behavior, because they are not stakeholders in the success of the community (I'm thinking of the drug-dealing gangs in a place I used to live). An extreme example, yes. But it's something to consider.

The people coming to any community are giving up things to join too. It IS an investment on their part — even if in a non-monetary lump-sum way. I would want to know that my investments in time/money/housing/labor were somewhat secure, and not subject to the whim of the BD — not that you really seem like an irrational person : ) I would want to know all the details about the BD's vision for the concrete workings of the community as well as how conflicts would be solved. I would want to know up front how much of an issue certain things are to the BD, like water use (see the dishwashing video reactions), land use, labor-sharing.

Intriguing, because I'm really up for trying a new (for me) social experiment. I'm actively seeking an intentional community and hope to find one within a year or two. But I'm more likely to go with a place where I feel like I have a voice — and a bit of security. At the same time, meetings in general are agony to me, and I like the shortcut of just having to deal with one person.

In asking this question, I thought there would be a dozen people that would quickly throw out numbers 3 to 8.  And that, in itself, would answer your quesion:  because I am willing and they are willing.

I once built an on-line community and turned it over to a board.  It was dead in three months. 

I once built a real community and turned it over to consensus - it was destroyed in seven months.

I built an online community and made myself the evil tyrant (JavaRanch).  Twelve years later it is one of the most popular communities on the internet. 

I built another online community and made myself the evil tyrant (permies.com).  It's been seven years and it is the largest permaculture community in the world.

I have a lot of stuff that I want to accomplish on land.  To do all of the things I want to do, I think it would be optimal to have six or more people do it with me.  Each person being passionate about some aspect.  And I think I would make sure the choreography between them and myself would work. 

I think it is natural that if a person is going to sign up for something like this, they would want to know a lot about the person running the project.  So I have made huge amounts of information available.

My reasoning:  I have things I need to accomplish.  Including demonstrating this kind of community.

The reasoning of somebody coming to the project:  They want to do these things too, and they trust me.

That trust thing is important - there are some people who trust by default, and in my experience these people are inherently trustworthy.  I suspect that Paul wants to find people like this to build his community with.

I just invested in a copy of 'Thinkers of the Jungle' by Willie Smits - the guy that set up the incredible rainforest restoration project in Borneo and succeeded in restoring both human and orangutan culture and also sustainable agriculture at the same time, along with increasing rainfall and various other things.  The last chapter in the book is all about the human stuff and I'd heartily recommend it to anyone with a serious interest in all aspects of permaculutre, but the rest of the book is about orangutans.  And one thing I learned is that they do a 'trust test'.  They bite you, with the upper jaw on your chin and the lower jaw in your throat.  If you flinch, they reject you.  If you trust them, they trust you forever.

I just have this sneaking feeling that Paul is doing his own 'trust test'. 

I'd be a one or less at this time as I have a home, and a small community around me here. But if that was to change for some reason (deaths, natural disasters, etc) It would be nice to know that there was someplace that I could go where I would be accepted to do what I am able to do to help and live a lifestyle that I respect.

Brenda, I think you'd be welcome at any permaculture community! 

30 years ago I would have been a 10 

A few years ago, I would have never considered such an arrangement, but now having enough experience with "egalitarian" arrangements that have plenty of issues of their own, I would possibly consider it, maybe give myself a rating of 3 or so. I would have to know way more about the vision for the community before I'd consider any further (is this already out there somewhere) first and then spend a decent amount of time as a visit before considering living there longer term. I'm with msellenk on a number of things, I could only live in such a situation of I trusted the person in charge enough that (after a trial period of course) I would feel some security in my situation.

8 or 9 for me. I've read your stuff, listened to your podcasts, and watched your videos. I like your independent / consensus / dictator hybrid approach.

I'm ready to join and excited to hear more about the overall plan. How do I find out more? Where do I apply to join?

Morganic Farms wrote:
8 or 9 for me. I've read your stuff, listened to your podcasts, and watched your videos. I like your independent / consensus / dictator hybrid approach.

I'm ready to join and excited to hear more about the overall plan. How do I find out more? Where do I apply to join?

Today, this question is a fiction.  But in a couple of months, I might have something a bit more real.

Dang, I was halfway to Missoula (in my mind, anyway).

I am excited to see a founding document and maybe some bylaws on how the community operates.

If there is anything I can do to help, call me.

Morgan Huber
Phone:
HELP, MORGAN!
(435-766-7426)

I am in.  I just filled my old Tracker with gas.  When?

9 with a couple of conditions.

You give me the opportunity to earn your respect enough to be given the authority to manage myself and/or (if I prove up to it) help teach the ropes to new people. I don't expect the respect off the bat, just a way to move to a point where I can be productive with out being micromanaged, which you should like because micromanaging is not much fun on either side. Of course though, when it comes down to it: as long as its your place, its your rules. Also, I am working toward a place of my own design and you would have to understand that when I am ready to start it I will be leaving. How far off that is being quite up in the air. I might be at your place a year, or a lot longer; I mention this because a lot of people starting community are looking for permanent fixtures, and I thought it fair to mention that there may be a limit on how long I would be around for.

I am of the opinion a benevolent tyrant is better than most democracies

I will pass on joining the ranks of your fiefdom though (ok maybe a visit)

I am nearing the end of my life and only want my body returned to the soil.  Until then I will be as actively productive is physically possible for these "old bones."

Here is a lame drawing of something in my head.

If I have exactly one main house with, say, eight people in it, then the reddish stuff is the house, the dark green is zone 1 and the light green is zone 2.

And if I have that same thing, but have a few eco building spread out, each with a person that manages that plot, then it looks more like the second drawing.

Some folks will be keen on the main house and some will be keen on the smaller houses.

I am packing my "stuff."  Is it OK for me to play guitar and sing.

I like the lay outs, ms paint or not. Some people like to live closer to a buzzing core of community (a main house) and others really need their quiet time. A main site surrounded by psudo hermitages can be a good way to do things. Especially since some permie systems benefit from having one person taking care of them; goats for example tend to bond to just one or two people, who should then be in charge of most of the day to day goat business.

My husband Seth and I are both very open-minded and genuine folks who are interested in just about everything there is to do with plants, farming, food, health and becoming more responsible and involved inhabitants on this beautiful planet Earth. We both love to laugh and are fun-loving, compassionate, and eager. We have a healthy sense of humor and love to see the light in every situation. We are both very easy going but motivated and driven to accomplish whatever task is at hand. My interests include nutrition, herbs, making jewelry, playing piano, and cooking. Seth likes doing mechanical work, playing the drums, playing cards, fishing, and exploring new places. Together we like to travel, read, hike, mine minerals, watch documentaries, play music, and learn something new everyday.

We are spiritual. We are strong believers in the power of thought and that you can do anything if you put your mind to it. We believe in visualization and manifestation. We have faith in methods or beliefs that can't be explained rationally. We believe in the power of knowledge and learning.

It is our calling to work toward sustainability. We believe that it is completely possible to get everything you need from the earth and be responsible for the impact that we have on our environment. Our long term goals are to eventually obtain the knowledge and resources needed to have our own land that we could farm. We want to work the land in a responsible and sustainable way in order to not only provide for ourselves, but provide for our community. We also want to become teachers, so we can pass along our knowledge to others.

Seth and I are very close to having our degrees, both in the agriculture field. Seth was going for ag business and I was going for horticulture. We are about three semesters away from having our degrees but have come to see that there is no rush is obtaining them. We have had such classes as Vegetable Production, Landscape Design I/II, Farm Safety, Agricultural Mechanics, and Sustainable Agriculture. I really enjoyed the time I spent at Western but it seems as if I could be doing something more constructive and worthwhile. While I am not in school at the moment, I still put time into learning everyday. I am definitely ready to put what I have learned into action. We both agree that we can’t continue going deeper and deeper into debt while being stuck in Kentucky. I have a deep passion for plants and gardening and seem to have a knack for it, it just makes sense to me. I had a job working on the university garden crew doing the landscaping and maintenance on campus. I also worked as a Mentor Gardener for a non-profit group in Bowling Green, Kentucky called Kaleidoscope. Kaleidoscope is a community based youth development program that worked to bring about positive transformation by creating an environment where youth can engage important issues through the arts and contribute back to society. I was put in charge of establishing community garden plots for the surrounding neighborhood and also educational plots where I taught the kids in my class how a garden works. Although Seth wasn’t on the payroll he was a huge help in all the physical labor and planning that such a project required. It was probably one of the most rewarding experiences of my life. Seth has also had a lot of experience working for tree and lawn service companies. He did general labor such as mowing and trimming, as well as repaired the equipment when needed.

So we're coming in at a 7.5, and with more information, we could quite possibly be a 9 or 10. Not sure if I wrote too much or if it even matters. Honestly, I just copied and pasted some info out of our WWOOF profile to give you an idea of what we could bring to the table. Looking forward to the details.

can I have the little cottage a mile or so down the road from the main house? I'll keep an eye on the zone 5 stuff and hike in for dinner

Brice Moss wrote:
can I have the little cottage a mile or so down the road from the main house? I'll keep an eye on the zone 5 stuff and hike in for dinner

Ooo, that sounds nice. 

magicdave wrote:
I am packing my "stuff."  Is it OK for me to play guitar and sing.

As long as I can give you a hard time if you do so poorly. 

I think that's always been one of the big perks of community - it seems there are always musicians.  The theme music to my videos comes from Jimmy Pardo.  A guy from a former community that was always playing his guitar.

I think that this thread has done the work I needed it to do:

This thread has been viewed 793 times.  So probably more than 500 people.  And it sounds like we have enough people. 

Therefore: 

1)  when Diana said that the only people that would be interested in this sort of thing would be the person in charge, it would seem that Diana is mistaken. 

2)  8 people out of 500 is around 1%.  So 99% said something between "no" and "hell no!" and 1% said something between "maybe" and "hell yes!".  In this case, 1% is more than plenty!

3)  awesome!

I enjoyed you podcast 036 and just wanted to mention that your suggestion about utilizing various people according to what they are good at or enjoy the most.  If you like to eat I love to cook.  My all time favorite "job" besides playing in a rock'n'roll band was when I was a location caterer in the motion picture industry.  I love preparing food that people enjoy eating.
PS: I can also weld fairly well LOL.

Paul brings up the Paul Wheaton Community in his podcast, intentional community part 2: http://www.richsoil.com/permaculture/322-podcast-042-intentional-community-part-2/

I think it sounds awesome! Put me down for a 5. It would be a 10 except that I have an outstanding and fun 32/hr diesel mechanic job east of Seattle. I couldn't hope to replace that income if I moved out of the area.

I love the idea of teaming up to decrease expenses. I've done alright alone (paid off my condo, got debt free, & now I live comfortably on about 28% of my take home pay) but that's nothing compared to how frugal you can live in a shared housing situation. I also like having other people around (if they're good people). I've always loved machines, which led to my career as a diesel mechanic but I've also enjoyed gardening as far back as my teen years. Over the last 18 months or so I've really gotten into permaculture. I think it's funny that a guy who lives in a condo is studying permaculture, but I'm doing it. For now I'm settling for a deck garden I constructed but I want more.

Wheatonville sounds like it would be a great place to do all of the above. I'd love to see the land take shape, learn how to build swales  instead of just reading about them. Help build a pond or two with self sustaining fish populations (oh man, that sounds like fun!). And I could also tinker with solar panels, build a rocket mass heater, and maybe even build a wood gas generator, big enough to run a tractor on. Building a permaculture system is a lot like designing a machine. I feel it in my bones that my mechanical vision can translate to Permaculture. I'm not ready to run such a place or build it from scratch (not yet) but I could sure help!

If it weren't for this awesome job that I'm so grateful to have, I'd start packing right now!

I don't see a problem with the owner of the property being in charge. It's his place after all. The owner of such a place is providing a valuable commodity, service and environment. It's expected that he must charge something in exchange for the value he makes available to the community. The charge may be in the form of labor, some kind of barter, money or some combination of them. Even if I were part of the community I'd still want to keep my career. That would mean I'd have less time to contribute, so I'd contribute a greater sum of cash to the situation.