This forum has been an excellent and enlightening read. I wonder if sometimes people are backed into a corner by the terminology that is being used and they actually see no way out.
I, for example will never use the word "equality" in a discussion because to me it has a divisive and discriminatory effect on society. Some use the word as in "positive discrimination" with regard to the feminist push for androgenic recognition. It discounts friends who are transgender or who have non-binary DNA gender syndromes such as kleinfelders Syndrome.
I always and push to use "equity" which, to my mind, is what the real discussion should be premised on. Equity is about respect, acknowledging that each person has a right to their opinion and to share it, but, I have the equitable right to say that is bullshit! Likewise, I expect that when expressing my opinion some one might say bullshit! Equality leads to quotas and I am not into quotas because I do not want someone chosen from a quota to design my car or the next fleet or aircraft. I want the most competent person to to be the designer and to be the lead engineers. In any quota system, those outside are disenfranchised. In embracing equity, I am free to put the most competent team together irrespective of any personal attributes they have or any prejudices I may have - overt or subconscious. I had a female friend who after being promoted confided that she was unsure if she was promoted on merit or because she filled a number in a quota system. Self doubt is a destroyer of confidence and can lead to self loathing and the need move into team destructive behaviours.
It has taken me a long while to understand that in an equitable society, I do not have to put up with that which is not equitable but by the same token, if I want to belong to a particular group, I need to follow the group rules. The biggy is that the group rules only apply to that group and not to people outside it. It is therefore unacceptable to do upskirting, be violent or abusive in general society because of normal social morés. And these should be punished by society. If they go unpunished, get the law changed so they are. Likewise, if the current standards are illogical, not based on sound practice/ science or plain discriminatory, then dump the standard.
In society the biggest driver for most people is money not survival - But survival is a primitive drive so money is equated to survival.
With Permies, the drive is survival but the corollary is sustaining and improving so I can achieve most if Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Whether self-actualisation needs to be obtained is a discussion for the more academic folk. But I do not need money to achieve it so I am a deviant in that I deviate from what the mainstream sees as normal - get up, go to work, make money, spend it, go home and repeat for 40 years. It is not hard to see why Premies and permaculture gets a bad wrap. It destroys the tenet of corporate greed, creates self sufficiency, works as a collective for personal and environmental success all without 40 years of mainstream normal and often in harmony within the collective group (s)
Equality, trolling, rape, bullying and belittling are merely tools for advantage, individually or collectively. A long while ago, I distilled in my mind that there are two ways to climb the ladder of success. The first is to stab the person above you in the back and they fall off the ladder. When you climb up to that position you have no way of knowing how to do the job because you do not have a mentor at that level so you ultimately fail and quit and this also fall off the ladder. The second way is to mentor the person under you so they can do your job and when they are competent, you then have a choice, either progress to the next level and be mentored or step off the ladder to seek a new ladder to climb.
Being a contributor on Permies, I am part of community and as such have a set of rules to follow. I affectionately call them RAPs (Rules According to Paul). And on the odd ocasion have been RAPed over the knuckles. But you get that so lets move on.
The thing that strikes me as the greatest positives is that as a community member, I can be mentored and be a mentor. I can ask questions and get answers or I can answer questions. My opinions are respected by receiving thumbs up or receiving apples or if I screw up, get a thumbs down or get an apple core. Or, and it has happened, have a post deleted.
Haters are probably just individuals who cannot contribute so need to try to pull it down so they can look like "big people"in the eyes of their peers. But who would want to be in that peer group?