Got to asking Grok about Permies information awhile back, specifically targeting different areas of Kentucky, from urban to rural, and also other geopolitical areas of interest. Had some pretty good information.
Anyway, got into researching hardware for running local AIs, and came across devices with NPU support. Mainly, phones and laptops which conserve energy compared to GPU or CPU only devices.
Google released NotebookLM 5 days ago, and generated the audio in under 10 minutes.
Interesting, but so far Grok has provided the most detailed information relevant to specific real property.
Might play around with PFAF database to see what happens.
I have have a lot of projects going on, and it will be nice to have them isolated while under one roof.
Thinking something like a well insolated warehouse for 5 20 foot containers. Strawbale or something with a rocket mass heater, and ventilation for cooling. Some solar panels or whatever local alt energy is most abundant.
All utilities offloaded to the warehouse, while each container is purpose built, and remains portable so a lift system installed in warehouse roof can lift and lower a container onto a trailer.
Might be worth investigating standard garage and trailer systems for that purpose. Cost of wood vs metal frame and related container management systems for each type of frame.
Think one container for personal quarters, one for general tools, could have one for utilities but can offload to warehouse, one container to house space observation lab equipment, a container for Burning Man Projects, etc.
Main purpose is to work year round in climate controlled environment, with very low long term housing overhead and be able to ship a project container off as needed. Containers can either return, or be sent to a new home freeing up space for a new project. Figured 5 containers for a max of 5 projects happening at any one time, to fit in a 5 day work week.
Might setup more comfortable personal housing near the warehouse once complete, and create 501c3 or LLC for each container depending on project types for US tax reporting purposes.
Guess a warehouse isn't so tiny, but this idea began small.
Going to reread permaculture materials (it's been 10 years) to determine what is scalable over long durations of time and change.
I have a software project to match Permies forum topics to any development property of interest, that's on Earth. Going beyond Earth is a different story for now requiring a lot of basic life support infrastructure that's entirely artificial.
Going to work on modular recipe card decks of permaculture that work better with software. Will work on a core deck which is universally applicable, and niche decks which are only applicable under certain conditions, like the climate zones for example.
Will probably rewrite this topic for clarity and post in more appropriate areas.
Contemplation of permaculture content in space, kind of recontextualizes what Permaculture is.
I would say permaculture is local, as what maybe permanent culture in one area, maybe not be applicable in another. A few things I see as universal permanent culture, solar system wide would be a common transportation system, language, communication systems, historical records, and perfected, reasonably flawless governance.
Errors in management could reduce the permanence of a system wide civilization, like the lands of milk and honey in biblical examples as they are today. The rate at which we consume resources will need to optimized to sustain life, system wide at least until our star runs out of fuel.
Found this idea to turn a moon crater into an enclosed dome.
Once the idea is applied and perfected, other domes can be constructed, leaving the soil beneath available as a test site for traditional Earth based systems of permaculture practice.
From what I see so far, the lunar soil would need to ferment under Atmospheric pressure in the presence of liquid water and microbial life before it would be able to grow something directly, other than mullein.
Not sure what optimal designs would be for materials from local manufacturing. Titanium beams, and 3 meter thick glass. I guess titanium beams in place of wood, and thinner glass for windows and greenhouse glass for structures under the dome. Maybe a titanium structure for Wofati or Earthship design.
On Mars, I read it has toxic soil, but no reason a similar dome idea couldn't work there.
Pretty sure any surface structures in space locations with little to no atmosphere will be built within an artificial bubble of atmosphere at first, until some sort of terraforming happens.
Possibly look at production outputs within the Biosphere project as a material base to build with.
So, building within a big pressurized structure would be a likely option, but not an option available at first until the infrastructure to build within is created.
I think perhaps something like the Straw-bale Earthship idea would eventually be viable with outputs from a large green house infrastructure.
Pretty sure an average space colony will have more straw output than used tires. Straw material is a good insulator, but have no idea on it's ability to withstand extreme pressure differences with relative vacuum outside. Perhaps Earth bags can be used to add some meaningful thermal mass in key areas or to reinforce the Straw-bale structure by adding a protective relatively thin thermal mass shell to the insulator.
I think overall, the moon will be a manufacturing base to launch things needed elsewhere since it has no atmosphere making heavy things less difficult to get off it's surface.
Astroid mining will be a thing. So, Ceres will likely be a place to process raw material, and manufacture items.
Mars and Venus will likely become Terraforming projects to create habitat for life. Mining will be a thing once launching extremely heavy payloads is cost effective.
The ice moons further out in our system are probably the most habitable places beyond Earth since they have a large amount of the key ingredient of life as we know it, with no thick atmosphere to pass through in order to access it.
The mining and manufacture of things will take awhile before things equalize and systems are perfected. We don't even have that perfected on Earth currently.
Terraforming projects will also be awhile before results and feedback happen. Who knows the biological impact?
I also think there will be a common solar system wide governance regulating transportation. Other than transportation, other areas will most likely be the responsibility of local government.
One thought to ponder will be the permanence of a solar system wide transportation system, and culture surrounding it.
In that regard, development of modular, shippable land development containers will be a smart path of research in my opinion. All the various destinations possible would require specific modules to optimally support human life.
Will start by researching specific modules for my local climate zone 6 with forested woodlands, and isolate what can be universally adapted in other zones, or even in artificial environments.
Pretty sure I'll setup project management software to track results and long term output. Going to have to limit my focus on what I have resources to manage personally, document and share a framework others can apply in order to have a complete module list for every climate zone and eventually the extraterrestrial options as well.
After looking at options, as far as growing things, I think the ice moon Ganymede, a moon of Jupiter, would be a good target to develop for.
It has the largest water ocean in the solar system, more than Earth.
So, I guess Earth bags would be out as a building option. Perhaps, igloo type building with ice blocks. Radiation issues with Jupiter, and even with a magnetosphere, two months on the surface of Ganymede would be a lethal dose of radiation exposure. Would have to tunnel into the ice for protection, and/or find a way to shield surface structure interiors.
Heard one estimate that the ice crust is 500 miles thick before reaching liquid, then rock, then molten mantel and core.
I'm sure that once they get through the ice, actual nuclear submarine living would be possible. Which smells like Russians.
I guess possible test sites for ultra light Permies in a box for living in an ice bubble will be artic islands near both poles.
Read that it currently costs around $640 per pound of cargo to launch into near Earth orbit, and they expect that soon they'll be able to reduce cost to $20 per pound.
Will focus on packing high value items in regards to long-term human life support, and things that are critical for utilizing local raw material. Think aircraft cargo containers would be a good target to fill and deliver to test sites.
Made a summary clipping of points to indicate research direction on this topic.
The first point would be to develop a shippable permaculture infrastructure supporting 100% home ownership of those of legal age and older.
The second will be to virtualize core components from the shippable permaculture infrastructure for testing in various environments which tend to be hostile or simply lacking the resources to be supportive of life.
James Cockerham wrote:
Wikipedia which is a pretty darned good vacuum.
So, here on Earth as for easy to ship building materials that integrate well with local resources. Military bunkers and Earth Bag housing would be a good model to follow.
Will need to investigate shipping container sizes, relative to current rocket payload capacity, and see what can fit. I imagine one, to several shipping containers worth of items and material.
Some designs could later be adapted for various space environments, with a shippable solution.
Will be a lot of work testing the various configurations of container contents and end goals once unpacked within a specified window of time.
Think I'll start working on a bill of materials to ship within one and two 40 foot containers. Which are around 10,000 lbs each empty. 20, and 10 foot containers are also readily available.
May setup a public git list for documentation and bill of materials.
Issue is moving containers around on-site, requiring specialized equipment, and hard flat surfaces to operate on. Depends on terrain, flatter areas it my be cost effective, but hilly or mountainous areas without quality roads, it my be better to have things shipped to a convenient area, unload, and relocate materials to desired area, before returning a container to a shipping company for reuse as it's original intended purpose.
Long-term, creation of a solar system wide civilization to survive indefinitely. I imagine each colony would produce it's own evolutionary line of humans, and given long enough, they would be noticably different than their ancestors. I think one such lineage to evolve would be humans who live entirely in space for their lifetimes. Those will be the ones to leave our solar system, as at current propulsion speed it takes tens of thousands of years to make it to the nearest stars.
Short-term, the wireless transmission of energy from very large solar satellites beamed to any location in Earth would do away largely with dependence on fossil, and nuclear power.
Long-term, creation of a solar system wide civilization to survive indefinitely. I imagine each colony would produce it's own evolutionary line of humans, and given long enough, they would be noticably different than their ancestors. I think one such lineage to evolve would be humans who live entirely in space for their lifetimes. Those will be the ones to leave our solar system, as at current propulsion speed it takes tens of thousands of years to make it to the nearest stars.
So, human infrastructure in space currently requires lots of people to support the artificial life support systems.
To narrow the scope of what from Permies can be applied short-term, would be natural life support systems for human life in hostile environments.
So, some bubble thinking here, and a hostile environment can be many things, even a local toxic political environment. I'm not going to live full time in a nuclear submarine if I don't have to. So what from Permaculture can I take with me and apply anywhere? I also see that Permaculture with purely artificial systems has to be applied more holistically, system wide to work in the bigger picture on extremely long time scales and evolutionarily with biology.
I think if Mars where going to have an Earth like atmosphere, it would have it already, and nuking it isn't a permanent solution, plus you just spread radio active material all over the place.
Planetary resources should be reallocated. Jupiter took a lot of material away from Mars during formation, so it is smaller. The surface temp of Mars during the day around the equator can be around 70 degrees fahrenheit. Could just locate chunks of ice in the astroid belt and send them to Mars to let them melt until atmosphere is dense enough to rain and snow.
Still like the freezing/extraction of Venus' atmosphere idea better for the point of 3 human friendly atmospheres out of one, Venus, Moon, Mars.
I think until a human friendly atmosphere exists, people will be forced to dwell underground and in metal structures which are airtight, able to handle interior and exterior pressure differences.
So, kind of dead in the water without atmospheric pressure, unless Earth bags can be used to create an airtight structure which can withstand extreme pressure differences indefinitely.
Found these wiki articles which have a lot of good information. There are different proposals for going about terraforming. So, might look at best directions in relation to permaculture.
So, until atmosphere happens, we're at permaculture in a insulated glass bubble with a protective coating to protect from solar radiation. These bubbles of permaculture would have to be manufactured and shipped, with inhabitants being trained in use of the Permies bubble's contents in regard to their current operating environment.
Shipping container is tempting to integrate into design, say two 40 ft containers with one converted into two bedroom housing and the other setup to house utilities, equipment, and shelving for storage.
Issue is moving containers around on-site, requiring specialized equipment, and hard flat surfaces to operate on. Depends on terrain, flatter areas it my be cost effective, but hilly or mountainous areas without quality roads, it my be better to have things shipped to a convenient area, unload, and relocate materials to desired area, before returning a container to a shipping company for reuse as it's original intended purpose.
I'm sure that in space, shipping will be concentrated to dense settlement areas with all required infrastructure sent. Space travel will have to drastically come down in cost before more remote, small time private shipping business happens.
Looks like a couple of 40 foot Intermodal Cargo Containers would be shippable on modern space rockets, with total weight under 130,000 lbs. Shippable weight wise, but will need to check volume.
Think I'll start working on a bill of materials to ship within one and two 40 foot containers. Which are around 10,000 lbs each empty. 20, and 10 foot containers are also readily available.
Guess refine contents, unpacking processes, and property development, a lot, in different environments until things are perfected and the load as light as possible, while also being time efficient once opened and applied to locally available resources.
May setup a public git list for documentation and bill of materials.
I also imagine that rocket transport will use standardized containers similar to air craft shipping containers eventually.
To make prototyping readily available to a larger group of volunteers, will focus on Intermodal Cargo Containers for Earth based test sites using more conventional cargo. Space will not be cheap, requiring custom items made on a small scale at first, but testing on Earth can use more reasonably priced items from the mass production supply chain.
Need to calculate through experience the total expected output of container contents, and human resources once deployed within one growing season. That will be interesting data, and longer-term forecasts can be made from there before actual experience happens.
Expanding on the shipping container idea. On Earth, container contents could be designed for all the different climate zones, and environment types like forested, grassland, desert, or ice. To pack a chainsaw or not.
Some designs could later be adapted for various space environments, with a shippable solution.
Will be a lot of work testing the various configurations of container contents and end goals once unpacked within a specified window of time.
Contents of a container, once unpacked and setup, should support total self sufficiency for an indefinite period of time. I know that things like batteries and solar panels have a limited life. So, things like that will need to be addressed. Will mail order for replacement parts be accessable, or will local infrastructure be developed within in a product's lifecycle that will serve as a replacement?
Goal of shippable "Permies-in-a-Box" for any destination type. Should identify key common contents that would serve universally in any environment, and then break down modules that can be custom-tailored, optimized on-demand for available resources at specific destination sites.
Kind of like the shipping container idea, and imagine a small electric tractor and some solar panels would be a good idea to add to it's contents along with rolls of poly bags, poly sheets, tools, etc.
Will need to investigate shipping container sizes, relative to current rocket payload capacity, and see what can fit. I imagine one, to several shipping containers worth of items and material.
Would also be worth investigating tractor trailer, cargo helicopter, and small ship capacities to give the research project a broader range of more immediate applications.
Finding the best payload for various destinations would be a great idea. Figuring out the most optimal tractor size, and ways to relocate shipping containers with it once containers are emptied in order to repurpose them would be a smart way to go.
Shipping housing through space to some destination. Heavy, bulky, and long term settlements will probably want more comfort than a Air Tight Space RV Trailer Pod will provide.
I think most development will begin with imported temporary surface housing that will shift focus to ag production and mining. More permanent surface housing will be developed from what is scooped, tunneled and dug up from under surface, and probably integrated with certain ag byproducts, like plant fibers, etc.
Also, on the reallocation of atmospheric resources idea. By the time that would be possible, infrastructure for shipping very heavy masses around the solar system will have been developed. So, at a cost, more conventional materials would likely be accessable, and local key infrastructure will likely have had time to develop.
So, here on Earth as for easy to ship building materials that integrate well with local resources. Military bunkers and Earth Bag housing would be a good model to follow.
To simulate space building, options can be artificially limited to what is found directly in the local earth, in large scale artificial indoor grow setups, and from the lighter weight, shippable/mail-order supply chain as it currently exists.
A good target to prepare for would be a boat with a small crew that is ocean worthy which could set sail and land on a barren island and have everything onboard to get started with long term land development. Probably an island near the artic would be a good test site, to simulate resource availability.
The lighter weight the better for shipping purposes, along with long term comfort that exceeds what is available from RV type housing or converted shipping container housing. Perhaps Earth Bag building integrated with converted shipping container housing.
Have gone through around 4k of them selecting around 200 to try and review on a food blog which I am setting up to track ingredients used.
Once finished, I'll know which ingredients to produce myself, organically to reduce costs preparing meals. For a lot of ingredients so far, local retail is reasonable for small quantities, fresh items, and liquids. Online shopping on sites like Amazon for dry ingredients in bulk up to 10-20 lbs. More weight than that, it is usually best to shop direct with a vendor or producer.
Greg Martin wrote:Thinking about the moon, the air pressure is negligible....around 3×10−15 atm according to Wikipedia which is a pretty darned good vacuum. So heat will be lost via radiation and conduction down into the ground.
Should probably figure out a way to freeze the Atmosphere of Venus and then ship it off to the moon, Mars, etc, and leave just enough so it will be habitable too, and not 900 degrees with surface atmospheric pressure like the bottom of the ocean.
The theory is Venus once had oceans that evaporated as the Sun expanded. So, as our Sun expands the Earth could one day also share Venus' date. Unless we can learn to reallocate atmospheric resources further out into the solar system as that expansion process unfolds over billions of years.
The atmosphere shipping business could equal a 3 for 1 deal, or more if we can manage it.
I guess it would be smart to figure out what the bottom line is building with raw materials like dirt, sand, gravel, stone, ice, formed metals and glasses. Liquid or no liquid, temperature extremes, different atmospheric pressures and vacuum are also factors which will eventually come up to the test. Should figure out what bottom lines are within reason using current technological resources which are shippable.
Heh, beyond the inner planets and moons, then there's the astroid belt with some planetoids and other large rocks consisting of various materials which should be easy to mine and ship. After that, Jupiter's moons with a large amount of water in ice form. Could keep going, but there's enough work between here and there.
Working on an idea to prototype building for space locations, as in the Moon, and Mars.
It would be reasonable to ship bags, barbed wire, and tools to some distant location and build with local materials. Maybe even ship a large 3D printer which prints with Earth bags, or Moon bags or Mars bags, etc for those locations lacking a breathable atmosphere.
So, key building materials will be local dirt and bags. Water my be lacking or in frozen form, so UV treated bags until a permanent surface coating can be placed outside.
A lot of infrastructure will have to be figured out. Mining will be a thing, and possibly a good source of building material for surface structures. Also, artificial agriculture within controlled production environments, will provide a possible work area to create things that require liquid to mix ingredients, like a surface coating for structures.
Lumber would have to be shipped in, so not a great option for window and door frames. The local solution will likely be metal beams produced from mining ore.
Some issues from article to address, space will be cold in areas lacking dense atmospheres, and straw for well insulated straw-bale building is currently only produced on Earth. So, options for insulting Earth Bag structures. Earth Ship designs may be of use here using no insulation other than Windows on Sun facing side to create a dirt battery for heat on the opposing side of a structure.
Looking to replicate options to build prototypes in Southern US, and possibly Canada to test cold builds.
Looking for best designs and building materials that will either be local or reasonably easy to ship via space.
Idea A is a Hexaship, a hybrid of the hut earthship design, and psp/wofati construction. Ideally, the wall of windows will face south, but it should face uphill on a slope allowing water to drain from the shed style roof.
Idea B's design idea came from the H13, but is technically an H14 with a gable roof, with water draining to two sides, and 4 sides of the hexagon being windows. Think I'll face the windows east and west so the west side will catch the prevailing wind here for cross ventilation.
Hey guys, looking for some tips with hybrid ideas that keep coming to mind.
The story starts with deciding to build a portable hexayurt a temporary shelter until December as I work on digging out mountain side for an underground house. The spot for the hexayurt is fairly flat on the ridge of a mountain (thin top soil before hitting sandstone). The ideas begin with an attempt to solve several issues with the typical hexayurt structure, being warm and dry during the winter. They are well suited for windy desert conditions and have been tested at burning man, but it can be hot and humid here and cold in winter. The problem, foam or osb panels seal air tight, and possible fire hazard.
The land I'm on has just been timbered, so lots of "junk" timber as local resource. Aside from the typical hexayurt not having a shed roof, making a psp/wofati structure comes to mind. Say, an H13 design over a 4' pit giving 12' at the ceiling's highest, with a possible loft. I think the drainage can be solve fairly easy on this gently sloped ridge location, or even add a ferrocement roof with rain gutter to cistern instead of the last thick layer of soil on the second polyethylene sheet. Pretty much a wofati/psp version of the earthship hut design with a hexayurt H13 timber frame. Gables and Hollywood wings work with the hexayurt as far as I can see.
The last idea I have is to make a psp/wofati hexapit shelter. Not a circle, not a square, has two extra walls for whatever.
A picture:
Have some doddles of both ideas, but I think if you are familiar with psp, watch the hut vid and look at the H13, you'll get the idea for the first one, just add two walls of windows on those highest, exposed H13 walls. 8'walls, with 4' loft and stove pipe vent in roof. The second is just a pit shelter with a hex timber frame, 12' in total height, a hole in the roof firepit beneath, with possibly a gable on one wall for a second entrance, and maybe one wall as a kitchen area. Shored up sleeping benches on the rest of the walls.
My intuition is leaning torward the second idea, or just building a regular hexayurt for about $200-300 in material, and working on a regular underground house wofati style.
Just looking ideas on drainage. Uphill patio and French drains, hut earthship roof, or big hole in the roof? Cheap is good, would rather spend 200-300 on a concrete mixer for making a lot of seed balls and still be warm and dry at least up to December. Main use will be for rustic woodworking and food forestry base.
I'm going to propose an experiment for all who read this. Everyone wants someone who is compatible with their hopes and dreams, and I expect nothing but the best as far as relationships go, for me and everyone else. The experiment I propose to anyone searching for a mate and partner is to go to OkCupid.com, create a profile and honestly answer at least 500 questions!
Report back here, and we'll share our profiles to see just how well we match. Anyone interested in volunteering their sweat to help with this farm project, single or not, should also fill out a profile. I like people who have looked within and have dealt with their issues, so, this is a good start.
You seem like such a wonderful friend, but I don't currently have the infrastructure to support a family of your size. I'm open to help, being friends and getting to know each other better by being penpals. Talk to you later.
The best answer to my location I can give is 37.856682, -82.929612.
The lake property owned by the state is thousands of acres! The wooded mountain forest I'm working on is close to 50 acres, 80 acres if you include my parents property with two houses, a woodworking shop, hay field and pasture for horses.
I'm experimenting with cordwood and cob structures for now, so, it's rather primitive. I use internet and shower in my parents house. So, I haven't weaned myself totally from their infrastructure. By this winter, I'll have a rocket stove and a small solar panel for charging a cell phone or tablet.
I'll make an update when I figure out posting pictures on here. I'm 30, and I have a dog named Fred. We have a glorious time! I'll post some plans once I figure pictures out!
I'm not expecting to find much here. I just want to invite like minded souls to share in my hearts dream. I'm here on 50+ acres of wooded land and plan to be camping a lot this summer, working to harvest berries and other fruit mostly for wine production and jams. I'll also be preparing land for hillside terrace farming, but I don't except help with this, it is a lot of work, but I have a 10 year plan.
There is also a trail around the lake that could use some guerilla farming, and clearing. It is state property though.. There are cliffs to jump from into the lake for swimming, and I have several bicycles for riding there and back.
Like I said, I don't expect much, but if we encounter each other and really like what we see, well, I'm open to whatever possibilities can arise!
Sounds like great fun Brian! I think I'll be raising chicken, pigs, miniature donkeys, and supporting native wildlife here. Mostly vegetarian, but chickens, pigs and the occasional woodland critter can be mighty tasty treats!
Just sayin Hello from East Kentucky. Looking into transforming the real estate here into mountain terraces, raised beds, ponds, etc.. Plan to specialize in wine production from native fruits and berries, and will also be crafting from wood, furniture and other useful stuff for the home. This project is in the beginning stages of reclaiming land from kudzu, and logging the mountains. I'm modeling after Sepp Holzer, and if you are interested in helping or checking out the progress, just ask!
I have a plan for project completion within 7 years, and should move into log cabin rentals by the 10th year.
