professional trolls

Getting feedback about an entire industry where people are paid to go out and try to discredit anybody on the internet saying something contrary to what their employer advocates.

So far I have heard of two companies that have dozens of people in each company that just go all over the web and find stuff to refute.

It sounds like this might be called "professional trolls", but I'm still researching.

I had one of those who followed me around in the green building section a few months back. He never once thought that anyone had a workable plan, unless it was made from his favorite material. Maybe he works for a cement company. A lunatic fringe cement company.

how would we expose them to light?
most often what i see are troll arguments not backed up with data. (yes i admit I go check when someone is in my face so i can chapter and verse them) but that by itself is not a troll. so how do we catch trap and expose these folks?

http://www.interadvocacy.com/category/tools/

these are the guys and he has links we can track to his companies that do this trolling stuff.

However this is a double edged sword, these are paid spammers however this is kinda what we unintentionally do when we advocate for this forum. hmmm it becomes a moral ambiguity thing. on the other hand this bunch of folks are creepy.

Ok i got some info and i dont like it. this is slimy stuff and big money. I found the guys blog that has co founded most of the troll companies and i really dont like the feel of it. Paul we might need to have a private conference on this one.

Also search "astroturf".

Shills and professional trolls have something in common. They are misrepresenting themselves. Ernie, you are clearly about rocket stoves, so if you put something out there, someone can choose to ignore you because of a bias they may assume you have regarding rocket stoves. You aren't hidden.

Just like myself, you can pretty much assume I think reforestation is a good thing - not hiding anything there. So, when I talk about forests, etc, you know where I am coming from.

It is about honesty.

I think the key is to know what is going on.

You are talking about throwing rocks at somebody with an arsenal of machine guns and bio-weapons just itching for a target.

http://xkcd.com/1019/

Talked a bit with the PRI folks. I was sent a link to their full article on the topic:

Rowell and Matthews found that one of the messages Mary Murphy had sent came from a domain owned by the Bivings Group, a PR company specialising in internet lobbying. An article on the Bivings website explained that “there are some campaigns where it would be undesirable or even disastrous to let the audience know that your organization is directly involved … Message boards, chat rooms, and listservs are a great way to anonymously monitor what is being said. Once you are plugged into this world, it is possible to make postings to these outlets that present your position as an uninvolved third party.”(6)

http://permaculture.org.au/2010/12/14/reclaim-the-cyber-commons/

Think craigslist job postings are trolled out? Check out their eco forum for 24/7 troll on troll action. Can't know for sure if some posts are trolls or not...real people could be posting under the influence of trolls! I am actually a highly paid troll myself, slowly building my repertoire and ingraining the principles of permaculture so one day I will be able to defeat truth in the minds of all but the most enlightened. Don't fret, you're all invited to the after party at my doomstead.

This is why I stick to forums that are properly moderated. Not to restrict opinions, but to ensure civility and stop shills, trolls and people who just won't be reasonable.

If someone wants to argue a position, fine - but dealing with troll and shill arguments is time-consuming. A red flag for me is if I answer someone's arguments (on climate change or whatever) and they come back with another link which doesn't directly address my last response. This is very common among climate change deniers, including among people I've debated in email & social media, who I'm quite sure were not being paid. Simply caught up in the religious fervor.

One tack I've taken was to suggest to someone that they answer to my last (very detailed, time-consuming) response to their repeated claims before they post anything else, after a chorus of agreement from others, they withdrew themselves. There were some cries of censorship, but tough - I pointed out that the offer still stood that if he made a reply as requested, he could stay. He never did.

I think he just enjoyed the fact that a one line inflammatory comment from him drew more than ten times the response of a carefully considered and subtly reasoned post. So he didn't belong.

I've learned to be careful of getting drawn into arguments with such people...

So, you're saying I could have been paid for doing this? Boy, am I slow.

Seriously though, please resist lapsing into paranoia. Troll is a subjective label, usually reserved for the reflexively contrary, especially those who throw expletives and ad hominem around, but lately being broadly applied to those who simply disagree with a list/forum's prevailing point of view, or editorial stance, if you will.

Don't mistake a strongly stated difference of opinion or stubborn devotion to a particular person/thing/idea as having necessarily been paid for. It is human nature to hold and want to express opinions. It is also human nature to want to surround yourself with people who agree with you. Just because the note resonates doesn't mean it is in the right key.

I have no doubt that professional trolls are out and about. If they are really good, you will never notice them. From what I have seen, there aren't very many really good ones. I suppose $20/hr doesn't buy really good.

Professional trolls are often described as pale-skinned rotund individuals living in their parent's basement, replying to posts in their underwear. (Now, to be perfectly frank, I am not a professional, it is my basement and I am fully clothed -- usually.) Of course, in reality, professional trolls come from a variety of backgrounds, though I am sure some fit the generalization.

There have been professional trolls since before the internet. I knew a man, over thirty years ago, who hired himself out as a writer of Letters to the Editor and as a "concerned citizen" at public meetings. He no doubt has made a successful move into electronic media.

Control of web content is a growing business and the sharp businessman/politician/ideologue will make sure that anyone doing a cursory search of his/her product or position will only see one side of the story. Wikipedia is one medium that has suffered tremendously from this type of manipulation, particularly when it involves hot button issues.

My brother once tried to research one of those magic water pyramid schemes. They had done such a thorough job of intervention, he had to go through several search pages before he found anything resembling an independent view. The level of sophistication in their subterfuge was impressive, to say the least. At least on par with the slickest junk mail. We're not talking Nigerian princes here, this is top-notch marketing/propaganda.

They are out there, trying to manipulate us, as they always have and always will. The only remedy is a firm skepticism and a commitment to learning. Still, it is hard to counter a good sales pitch, even if you see it coming. It takes tremendous discipline to overcome the animal in us that is being played. I used to watch car salesmen work customers while waiting to get paid for advertising (they always made me wait). It was interesting to see the well practiced dialogue and choreography, like being at a play. After that, I thought I could beat them, having seen the script, but I have been suckered, at least a little, every time.

Anyway, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. If you want a viable forum with new ideas, you have to accept a modicum of contrariness and manipulation. From what I have seen in this short time, your moderators do a pretty good job of keeping things loose but workable.

Say No to Troll, Yes to Droll,

Andrew Parker

Paul talks to Jocelyn in this podcast about professional trolls, backyard ponds, local vs organic, composting, and lots of other listener-question subjects: podcast 112

I first noticed this a few years ago with review sites. Amazon, Epinions, Yelp and all the others. I was reading a review for a restaurant that had outright lies in it but if you had never been there you wouldn't know. You can sometimes tell which one are the shills but they are getting harder to spot. I just discard any 5 or 1 star reviews of anything now assuming they are a plant one way or the other.

Trolls are like lice. I am often subject to trolls on many sites. I take it as a compliment. Sadly, us real trolls that have fangs and horns are offended and are planning the doom of the poser trolls. Us real part human/animal trolls have our ways. Consider this a warning and stay away from our dude Paul and his EVIL Empire. Us real trolls approve of Permies. GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR, do not make me use the power of bad breath and technology to find and destroy you.

Now pay my toll or I will eat you. Actually I will feed you to the dragons. I find internet trolls over medicated and stringy. No real flesh that is good to eat!

Just keep them talking until daylight...they turn to stone. problem solved.

What? it worked for Bilbo!

The cure for trolling - healthy skepticism. Do not be a gullible sucker and believe everything you hear. Sponsor healthy debate and be willing to put aside beliefs that prove wrong . Seek knowledge from knowledgable sources and learn to recognize expertise. I see that approach on Permies.com. What could any troll do to this site? Convince us that Monsanto is really our best bet ? I see criticism of Salatin and Holzer on this site , it seems healthy and productive. "Believe" means " I'll leave it up to you " . Sometimes we need to believe others to keep from recreating the wheel.