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best perennial chicken feed | (Read 7272 times) |
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paul wheaton
Administrator
Posts: 5600
missoula, montana
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November 02, 2008, 08:28:55 PM |
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If I'm about to plant two acres of chicken pasture with perennials, I'm trying to think what might be the biggest feeder.
Black Locust is one of the premier permaculture plants - but ... can chickens actually eat the seeds? Aren't they too hard?
Mulberry seems like a good source for sugar - especially the varieties with three months of fruit. My guess is that mulberry is going to be the winner of this contest. I doubt any other fruit tree can beat the mulberry for quantity - let alone spreading it out over a long period of time.
Siberian pea shrub - can chickens break the seeds? Also, it doesn't seem like there is a lot of food for the size of the bush.
Alfalfa? Good tap root, n-fixing ... but do chickens eat the leaves or what?
seaberry - the fruit is mighty tart - do chickens actually eat it?
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« Last Edit: June 13, 2010, 12:28:40 PM by paul wheaton »
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Susan Monroe
Posts: 1093
Western WA
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November 02, 2008, 09:42:12 PM |
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Beginning with your question on seed size, I think if a chicken is willing and able to swallow it, it should be broken down all right in the crop. Chickens are said have a more efficient digestive system than your average songbird. No matter what they seem to eat, it never seems to be passed whole in their poops, as far as I can tell. I fed them a handful of wild blackberries, and too late I thought "OOPS! Now I'll have blackberry seedlings all over." But when I scooped up some poops with a popsicle stick and smeared them on a flat surface, I couldn't find any individual seeds at all.
But there's another facet to feeding black locust, apparently, as the Govt of Canada says the leaves, bark and seeds are poisonous:
http://www.scib.gc.ca/pls/pp/ppack.info?p_psn=35&p_type=all&p_sci=sci&p_x=px
"Black locust (Robinia pseudoacacia) ... The seeds, bark, and leaves contain toxic proteins that have caused sickness and death in cattle, horses, poultry, sheep, and humans. The plant should be considered toxic to all animals if ingested."
(several other sites also indicate the tree is poisonous.}
However, the Forest Research Institute in Budapest indicates just the opposite at http://www.fao.org/docrep/n7750e/n7750e04.htm
"In the Republic of Korea black locust leaves are used for forage. Pulverized leaves, at a 30 percent ratio, are mixed into rice bran as forage for pigs. In chicken feed, they can replace alfalfa. For this purpose a tetraploid black locust, the clone Robinia pseudoacacia 'Gigas', is used, having leaves three times bigger and with 1.4 times more protein content than normal diploid black locusts."
Then, if you want to be even more confused, see this info at Plants for a Future: http://www.pfaf.org/database/plants.php?Robinia+pseudoacacia
So......  Is toxicity determined by amount of ingestion?
It's a puzzlement.
Sue
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paul wheaton
Administrator
Posts: 5600
missoula, montana
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November 03, 2008, 12:43:23 PM |
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Chickens will put rocks in their craw to break up seeds. I wonder if they would put black locust seeds in their craw to break up the lessor seeds. In other words - they don't see the black locust seeds as food, but more like rocks.
I think blackberry seeds would be way easier for any animal to break up and digest than black locust seeds.
As for the toxicity of black locust. This is an odd space. If I remember correctly, the primary toxin is tannins. And a lot of animals can cope pretty good with the tannin level in black locust. Goats more than most other species. Apparently goats some sort of tannin negating enzyme or something.
I think that in another thread in these forums there is a lot more info.
But when it comes to chickens, I suspect that none of it matters until the fall when the locust drops its leaves and pods.
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forest_gardener
Posts: 6
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November 03, 2008, 02:43:51 PM |
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Paul,
Please join the chicken forage discussion on the critter care discussion! I agree with you, you have to take some information with grain of salt. I just ordered three mulberry trees cause I think you are correct!
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paul wheaton
Administrator
Posts: 5600
missoula, montana
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November 03, 2008, 05:27:12 PM |
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It was reading that that made me think to ask a slightly different question.
When buying mulberries, it could pay to shop around a bit - it seems that some are bigger producers than others.
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Steve Nicolini
Posts: 224
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November 25, 2008, 04:07:35 PM |
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I wonder if the chickens will eat anything that is already in the pasture, like the dock or some of the grasses.
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Susan Monroe
Posts: 1093
Western WA
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November 26, 2008, 12:33:05 PM |
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For grass seeds, the seedheads tend to be over the chickens' heads, so you either have to mow them or knock them down (the grass heads, not the chickens) so they can get to them.
Sue
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paul wheaton
Administrator
Posts: 5600
missoula, montana
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December 12, 2008, 04:16:45 PM |
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Hmmmm .... I wanna think that the chickens should figure out what is at the seed head and somehow knock it over.
Any experience with this?
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Susan Monroe
Posts: 1093
Western WA
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December 13, 2008, 11:49:13 PM |
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The funny thing with my girls is that they will walk under grass seed heads and ignore them, yet will jump/fly/hop up to grab the fruit off berry bushes (blueberries, raspberries).
Yet, I can pull up errant stalks of wheat and barley and toss them into their pen and they know exactly what they're for. I would set some aside to toss into their covered pen on rainy days, to entertain them.
Maybe I need to point out the standing stalks to them? Or, in nature, maybe the standing stalks don't fall over until later in the season when there is the greater need? Could this be part of Ma Nature's Big Plan?
Sue
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paul wheaton
Administrator
Posts: 5600
missoula, montana
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December 14, 2008, 01:35:32 PM |
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I think it could be worthwhile to teach them about the grain. I suppose that they, in turn, would teach future chickens. I suspect that a lot of chickens teaching chicks is lost with the incubator.
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Susan Monroe
Posts: 1093
Western WA
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December 14, 2008, 08:07:23 PM |
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"I suspect that a lot of chickens teaching chicks is lost with the incubator."
Now, that wouldn't surprise me a bit.
I saw on a National Geographic special about cats that kittens taken from their mothers before they're 12 wks old tend to be poor hunters. MomCat makes a point of bringing dead mice to eat, then live mice to play with, then shows them how to kill them, then she takes them out and shows them how it's done, and helps them do it themselves. Pity the poor kit who is given away at 6 wks and the new owner wants a mouser.
Some chicken varieties are better free range birds than other kinds. I guess the showy type of birds have lost much of their instinct. But the 'instinct' may just be another way of saying that they never had the chance to learn how to act like a real chicken.
Leah, I don't know that there is really a 'plan', per se, as much as how certain things tend to work out. The chickens use the insect explosions in summer as a source of protein, augmented by berries, and then the standing grains they ignored or didn't notice are knocked down by wildlife, people or wind in fall, and there is a new source of food to go along with the fall berries and dwindling insects.
Some of the berry seeds are pooped out, moisturized, softened, scarified, and deposited with a small blob of fertilizer, probably close to the right time for germination. The grains may sprout in fall (like winter wheat), get mowed down by livestock or the same chickens in fall, they stool and come up in spring as multiple stalks. Some of the other grains probably lie dormant until moisture and warmer weather, then they pop up.
I think it's a matter of synergy in action. It keeps going because it works. If it didn't work, it would die out.
Sorry to offend you, but for the last fifteen years, I have been working with the kind of people for whom I've had to dumb down my language to make myself understood. 'Accoutrements', 'expedient', 'facade', 'permaculture'.... beyond their comprehension.
Sometimes, I don't change mental gears fast enough.
Sue
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Susan Monroe
Posts: 1093
Western WA
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December 15, 2008, 07:39:10 PM |
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Oh, good!
"...am rarely shy about giving my opinion!"
Does that happen to remind you of anyone? 
Sue
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Steve Nicolini
Posts: 224
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December 18, 2008, 11:36:13 PM |
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It is silly to be offended. Why take anything personally? Better to ground the charge. I'm not sure how giggling grounds it with some folks. You might just become their charger! This would be good to put in the intentional community section.
I wonder if there is such thing as a "best" chicken feed? There might be a best relative to location and breed, but I don't think it is universal.
Remember this is coming from a guy who has never raised chickens.
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Susan Monroe
Posts: 1093
Western WA
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December 19, 2008, 06:18:21 PM |
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I think "best" is certainly relative.
Best can mean closest, best nutrition for what is available nearby, best type of planting seed at the local feed store, best for what kind grows where you are.
Alfalfa, for example, is probably a pretty good perennial chicken feed, but you don't see much of it around western WA, do you? That's because it grows best in more alkaline soil. But if you neutralized your soil, it may grow perfectly fine.
Sue
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paul wheaton
Administrator
Posts: 5600
missoula, montana
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December 21, 2008, 01:18:31 PM |
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I'm thinking that some plants will provide 20 times more per acre than other plants. Granted, diversity is best. I'm just thinking that there might be a top 5 that really crank out the chicken feed.
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Susan Monroe
Posts: 1093
Western WA
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December 21, 2008, 05:21:45 PM |
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Paul, are you thinking of self-feeding crops or crops that will be harvested by you for winter feeding, or some of both? Another consideration would be processing.
Maybe wheat, grain and/or sweet sorghum, barley, millet, alfalfa, clover, buckwheat. Corn is a really heavy feeder, and needs to be broken for chickens, oats are difficult to thresh and chickens aren't all that fond of them (nor rye).
And you would have to discover which of those would grow best where you are. Of course, with a mix, if one or two failed, you would have the others to fall back on, and the perennials are always good.
Sue
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paul wheaton
Administrator
Posts: 5600
missoula, montana
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December 22, 2008, 12:24:08 PM |
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Sue,
Processing? I'm not sure what you're referring to here.
I am looking for something that the chickens can harvest themselves. I hope to plant lots and lots of stuff that the chickens will harvest themselves. In theory, I hope to cut my chicken feed bill by 80% or more.
So far, at the top of my list is mulberry trees. They are perennial and they are heavy producers of feed all summer. And, they actually contain protein! They sound rather dreamy for chicken feed!
Alfalfa is probably out for me because it is so damn picky about pH. And this might be worth a whole new thread: maybe there is an alfalfa that has been bred that likes acid soil?
The grains you list are all annuals, aren't they? So the chickens would have to miss a few if they are gonna reseed?
I guess for annuals I'm kinda leaving them out for now. I figure if I screw it up, I can always try something else the following year. It's the perennials that are tricky. Surely there are some fantastic perennials for chicken feed that are as good as mulberry
I think clover could be a good one. As would good ole grass. The whole greens thing. I suppose a cover blossoms would make some decent food for chickens?
Leah,
Acorns .... hmmm ... I wonder if there might be an animal that could come through and pre-process the acorns for the chickens. Like a cow.
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Susan Monroe
Posts: 1093
Western WA
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December 22, 2008, 06:38:32 PM |
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OOPS! I totally overlooked that word 'perennial'. Sorry!
Is the entire two acres going to be wide open for a large flock of chickens, or are you going to divide it and 'herd' them from one area to another?
They love blueberries, and even the heavier breeds will hop/flutter to pick them. Shorter varieties would probably be best.
But chickens are basically seed-eaters. Peters Seed & Research does have perennial wheat, rye, sorghum and triticale. http://www.psrseed.com/permaculture.html
If your pasture isn't heavily stocked with poultry, I would imagine that some annuals would be overlooked by the birds and would reseed.
Tagasaste might be good, too, if you could find seed.
What is the plan for winter?
Sue
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Susan Monroe
Posts: 1093
Western WA
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December 22, 2008, 06:58:21 PM |
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p.s.
I looked around for an alfalfa variety that would tolerate lower pH, and couldn't find any. But plant breeders have been trying, with very limited results:
"Our results indicate that alfalfa cultivars exhibit a narrower range of acid tolerance than is known to exist in several other crop species, but that individual clones differ in their reaction to both low and high soil pH. We concluded that sufficient genetic variation exists to permit selection for tolerance to low pH, but the narrow genetic base might limit progress."
(from The Agronomy Journal, http://agron.scijournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/67/3/331
Sue
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dvmcmrhp52
Posts: 92
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December 23, 2008, 11:08:12 AM |
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So far, at the top of my list is mulberry trees. They are perennial and they are heavy producers of feed all summer. And, they actually contain protein! They sound rather dreamy for chicken feed! We've got mulberry trees everywhere around here, and they sure do produce.You mentione dblack locust, and they do well fixing nitrogen, just be careful where you plant as they are very fast growers given the right conditions.Alfalfa is probably out for me because it is so damn picky about pH. And this might be worth a whole new thread: maybe there is an alfalfa that has been bred that likes acid soil? I was going to mention the headaches with alfalfa, but it seems you've got it.The grains you list are all annuals, aren't they? So the chickens would have to miss a few if they are gonna reseed? I guess for annuals I'm kinda leaving them out for now. I figure if I screw it up, I can always try something else the following year. It's the perennials that are tricky. Surely there are some fantastic perennials for chicken feed that are as good as mulberry I think clover could be a good one. As would good ole grass. The whole greens thing. I suppose a cover blossoms would make some decent food for chickens?
I would think some timothy would fit in well too.Leah, Acorns .... hmmm ... I wonder if there might be an animal that could come through and pre-process the acorns for the chickens. Like a cow. The deer may very well do that for you. |
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paul wheaton
Administrator
Posts: 5600
missoula, montana
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December 24, 2008, 04:24:43 PM |
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Sue,
The acreage will be divided into paddocks and the chickens will be moved around.
Nice link!
Winter will be for fewer chickens, more feed, and still moving through the paddocks. Supplement with live insects raised separately.
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Susan Monroe
Posts: 1093
Western WA
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December 24, 2008, 11:42:20 PM |
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It you're going to rotate them through pastures Mollison-style, maybe tossing out seedballs of certain mixes into different pastures would be effective. Winter wheat can be planted in fall, allowed to grow some, then it will go dormant and pop back up with new growth in spring. Harvest is in summer. Just drag a fence post or shortened branch behind a tractor or riding lawnmower (cutting blade turned off) to knock them down for the chickens to harvest themselves. For them, it's entertainment and food.
Sue
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paul wheaton
Administrator
Posts: 5600
missoula, montana
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December 31, 2008, 11:09:56 AM |
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what kind of soil is this? it occured to me that nutsedge is an important wild food (when thinking about turkeys) I dont' see why chickens couldn't scratch up the tubers also. and that stuff is indestructable in the right conditions and edible for us too........
Firing up google and wikipedia!
'It has been called "the world's worst weed"' - good! That means that it is a vibrant plant!
"it is allelopathic, the roots releasing substances harmful to other plants." - and that makes it not a good guild plant. Damn.
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Susan Monroe
Posts: 1093
Western WA
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January 02, 2009, 09:28:54 PM |
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Before you attempt to deliberately sow nutsedge, you may want to read this article at Dave's Garden: http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/go/31765/
The little nutty tubers are called 'chufas', but it doesn't say how deep they grow. Would they be within reach of chickens?
Sue
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Susan Monroe
Posts: 1093
Western WA
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January 03, 2009, 01:07:01 PM |
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"... roost potatoes..."
Sue
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Susan Monroe
Posts: 1093
Western WA
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January 04, 2009, 12:47:35 PM |
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The only breed I've ever had are Buff Orpingtons. I asked on the Backyard Chicken forum what would fit my criteria best:
*Large breed (don't fly over fences into killer dog yards)
*Good foragers
*Not fly-in-your-face flighty things
*Brown eggs
Mine range all over my acre, are good-natured for handling, and I trained them from youngsters to come when I called or rattled some scratch in a can. It's sure easier to lead them than to catch them!
Sue
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paul wheaton
Administrator
Posts: 5600
missoula, montana
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January 29, 2009, 06:59:07 PM |
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I definitely plan on raising a bunch as meat birds and another bunch as egg birds.
For meat, nothing comes close to cornish/rock cross. I just have to find a way to teach them to forage better.
As for egg layers, I plan on getting six different egg laying breeds, having them intermix a lot, and then trying to come up with my own strain that has a good feed-to-egg ratio in a forage situation.
But, both of these topics are best for another thread.
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Joel Hollingsworth
Posts: 1623
zone 10: Oakland, CA
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August 16, 2009, 12:53:31 AM |
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This won't apply to me personally for a while, but...
Does anyone here know if chickens like to eat alder catkins?
I have also read that they love to eat olives.
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"the qualities of these bacteria, like the heat of the sun, electricity, or the qualities of metals, are part of the storehouse of knowledge of all men. They are manifestations of the laws of nature, free to all men and reserved exclusively to none." SCOTUS, Funk Bros. Seed Co. v. Kale Inoculant Co.
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 articles by paul wheaton: [diatomaceous earth] [Sepp Holzer] [cast iron] [flea control]
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