|
Pages: [1] 2
|
 |
|
|
Author
|
livestock guardian animals: llamas vs great pyr | (Read 1357 times) |
|
paul wheaton
Administrator
Posts: 4459
missoula montana
|
 |
September 22, 2008, 11:38:44 AM |
|
I have a strong opinion about this and am having a healthy discussion with another party about it. So I wish to gather feedback from others on this topic without pushing in my own opinion.
While having livestock guardian animals is a rich topic, I would like to limit the discussion to two. Llamas and great pyrenees dogs and their ability to protect chickens from wildlife.
I'm tempted to convey what I know on the topic, but I'm concerned that that would expose my bias.
Anybody have experience with either? Or, hopefully, both? Can anybody share the pros and cons of having them as a working animal on a full farm eco system?
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
|
Susan Monroe
Posts: 1093
Western WA
|
|
October 07, 2008, 04:50:46 PM |
|
No personal experience, but I did read that guard animals MUST be raised from puppyhood with the stock they are intended to protect, so they think of them as 'family'. Putting them in when they're mostly grown is too late for them to make that connection, and can turn into a major slaughter.
A friend has a llama, plus chickens, geese, turkeys and ducks. He was not raised with them, but gets along with them, and he has absolutely no interest in protecting them from raccoons.
Sue
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
paul wheaton
Administrator
Posts: 4459
missoula montana
|
|
October 22, 2008, 02:13:17 PM |
|
There is an excellent book about livestock guardian animals. I checked it out from the library and didn't spend enough time with it.
In the end, it sounds like llamas can be good for some situations. But you have to use the llama just right. There has to be just one, so that the llama thinks of the other critters as its herd. And the llama has to be in with the herd (chickens?). And there are some predators that llamas can do nothing about, such as mountain lions.
The important thing I learned is that in some cases a Llama can do as much as a great pyr. But there are far more cases where a great pyr is going to be far more effective.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Susan Monroe
Posts: 1093
Western WA
|
|
October 22, 2008, 03:45:07 PM |
|
I was just talking about your question to a friend of mine yesterday, an old farmer-girl. She said that if you are wanting a dog to protect livestock from coyotes or wolves, you may need two dogs. Coyotes and wolves will split up and tease the dog from the front, while others hamstring him and jump him from the back.
I hadn't even considered that.
Sue
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
|
paul wheaton
Administrator
Posts: 4459
missoula montana
|
|
October 24, 2008, 09:40:16 AM |
|
I had one pyr and one mutt about five years ago. That seemed to be about 99.7% effective.
My reading suggests that having just one dog might be 98% effective. But that last 1.7% would probably be well worth it.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
|
Susan Monroe
Posts: 1093
Western WA
|
|
October 25, 2008, 11:11:15 AM |
|
And that 1.7% probably means any given situation. As soon as the coyotes, stray dogs or wolves pull down one Arabian foal or Alpaca, the equation resets. That could mean 1.7% every three days, which would be a horrible loss over time.
Sue
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
|
Susan Monroe
Posts: 1093
Western WA
|
|
October 29, 2008, 12:13:19 PM |
|
They look like a relative of the Great Pyrenees.
Where are you, Leah? There have been quite a few sightings of cougars in the Lacey to Centralia WA area this summer/fall. One of my RR passengers was all excited when he found a set of cougar tracks by the river/trestle this past summer. They have a large hunting range, estimated locally (probably based on available food) as 75 sq miles.
Sue
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
|
Susan Monroe
Posts: 1093
Western WA
|
|
October 30, 2008, 11:35:49 AM |
|
From the BBC (British Broadcasting Co.):
"West Yorkshire Police recently seized two captive big cats from cages at a farm near Leeds.
Their owner told police he was planning to release the cats into the wild so he and friends could hunt them.
There are credible reports big cats are becoming popular as pets among criminals - especially those involved in the drugs trade - because of their deterrent effect on intruders."
Sue
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
|
Susan Monroe
Posts: 1093
Western WA
|
|
October 31, 2008, 12:45:51 PM |
|
You've stepped up and forward, sometimes no easy feat.
Here in WA, a couple were driving along a country road in December, and a huge python was moving alongside the road. They couldn't believe it. The guy was used to handling snakes, and the two of them managed to get it into the back of their car. The local police put them in touch with a local herpatologist (she's the one that told me about it).
No one advertised for it, and no one answered her ads. She is suspecting that it was stolen from out of the area, and the thieves decided it was too much for them. She said it was in very good shape, so she thought it was probably a recent acquision.
It's a pity that people make their decisions for the moment, rather than looking down the road.
Sue
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
|
Susan Monroe
Posts: 1093
Western WA
|
|
November 01, 2008, 12:18:03 PM |
|
Yes, sometimes we have to remind ourselves that they are dependent on us, and that we have to do what is best for THEM, not what is best for US.
Still, I've had to do it enough not to like it.
Sue
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
dvmcmrhp52
Posts: 92
|
|
November 11, 2008, 10:42:05 PM |
|
We will have two llamas to protect the horses from coyotes.
There is quite a population of coyotes in the area we will be relocating to, and since our last remaining horse for the time being is boarded at a farm at the base of a mountain known for coyotes there are of course several llamas in the pastures due to 7 horses, a colt and a filly running around. The young ones are the real concern, our 1500Lb quarter/draft cross really has no worries with critters, but her colt certainly does.
Llamas it is. 
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Susan Monroe
Posts: 1093
Western WA
|
|
November 12, 2008, 12:19:24 PM |
|
There was an article in the September 2008 issue of AcresU.S.A magazine that described an interesting method of predator control. The article is "Wildlife-Friendly Predator Control", writer Barbara Berst Adams.
The concept is roughly this: Predators have their territories. If you kill off all the coyotes in your area, more will always come in to fill the gap. No matter how many you shoot or poison, you will always have coyotes.
So, suppose you keep 'your' coyotes, the ones who consider your farm 'their' territory. And you raise sheep. Apparently, there is a proven method where 'your' coyotes will permanently leave your livestock alone, AND protect them from other predators when they are in the area.
It is called 'conditioned taste aversion' (CTA). A chunk of mutton is laced with 'a very specific dose of an undetectable nausea-causing substance', then wrapped in wool and left out for the predator to find. After the severe nausea passes, there is a permanent memory of the result of eating that kind of prey, and they make a point of avoiding that prey regardless of other circumstances.
This isn't using 'repellency', like putting hot sauce on the mutton, because the predator will just avoid sheep wearing hot sauce. If the nausea-inducing substance is detectible, the predator will just avoid sheep with that scent.
And this isn't 'aversive conditioning', where the predator is hit with an electric shock or shot at with rubber bullets. The coyote still wants to eat your sheep.
'With CTA... an internal desire for a certain prey is rewired... the wild predator simply doesn't want to eat calf, or sheep, or goat... '
For more information on CTA and the work of Dr. Lowell Nicolaus, go to his webiste at http://www. conditionedtasteaversion.net
For more info on Jonathan G. Way's coyote research, to to http://www.easterncoyotereserach.com
That last was a bad link, edited to correct Jonathan G. Way's coyote research: http://www.easterncoyoteresearch.com/
Sue
|
|
|
|
« Last Edit: January 11, 2009, 11:58:50 AM by Susan Monroe »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
paul wheaton
Administrator
Posts: 4459
missoula montana
|
|
November 12, 2008, 12:23:08 PM |
|
From the reading I have done so far, my impression is that if you are going to use a Llama to protect something else, it must be just one llama. Apparently the idea is that the Llama will consider all of the other animals to be part of the herd and will then protect them. But if there is another llama, then the two llamas think they have a herd of two and all of the other animals are not part of their herd, so they will not protect them.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Susan Monroe
Posts: 1093
Western WA
|
|
November 12, 2008, 12:39:33 PM |
|
Well, now, that's a new idea!
If two llamas were raised with sheep, they wouldn't think they were all the same?
Sue
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
dvmcmrhp52
Posts: 92
|
|
November 12, 2008, 10:05:41 PM |
|
I do know the aussies use Llamas for their sheep.
How would one Llama take on a pack of coyotes?
I would suggest it would be snack time for the coyotes......... 
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Susan Monroe
Posts: 1093
Western WA
|
|
November 12, 2008, 10:36:56 PM |
|
I just ran across this website http://www.llamas.co.nz/guard.htm, and there seems to be a lot of conflicting opinions. I heartily disagree with the person who says that coyotes don't hunt in packs!
Sue
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Leah Sattler
Administrator
Posts: 2603
oklahoma
|
|
November 13, 2008, 05:19:45 AM |
|
. It is called 'conditioned taste aversion' (CTA). A chunk of mutton is laced with 'a very specific dose of an undetectable nausea-causing substance', then wrapped in wool and left out for the predator to find. After the severe nausea passes, there is a permanent memory of the result of eating that kind of prey, and they make a point of avoiding that prey regardless of other circumstances. http://www. conditionedtasteaversion.netFor more info on Jonathan G. Way's coyote research, to to http://www.easterncoyotereserach.comSue
geez I wish that eating something that made them want to puke would keep my dogs from eating gopher. Gopher dog vomit is gross. I'm not sure that I would trust that method I know coyotes are smart but I'm not convinced that they could make the connection. I think most animals avoid food that is bad for them on an instinctual level. such as finding a particular taste yucky. not because of the after effects. half the time humans can't figure out what they ate that made them throw up. maybe the coyotes aren't hunting the sheep because they are getting free mutton.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
 "One cannot help an involuntary process. The point is not to disturb it. - Dr. Michel Odent |
|
|
Susan Monroe
Posts: 1093
Western WA
|
|
November 13, 2008, 06:51:12 PM |
|
They said it's proven to work well. Apparently the stuff that you use works quickly, so there's some recognition between cause and effect.
My Mom loved clams. Then one day she got a bad one, was so sick she was hospitalized, and never had the inclination to eat clams again, EVER.
If we could find out what this stuff is, you could catch a gopher, add the magic ingredient, and let your dog find and eat it.
My dog is even worse: rock bottom dog vomit is opossum poop.
Sue
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Susan Monroe
Posts: 1093
Western WA
|
|
November 19, 2008, 10:28:47 AM |
|
I would occasionally see a pack of coyotes early in the morning in southern Calif, trotting through the fields near Puddingstone Dam. When I saw their positioning, all I could think of was 'skirmish line'.
While I'm sure some coyotes will hunt by themselves, I do know they hunt in packs, just like dogs and wolves.
Sue
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
|
Susan Monroe
Posts: 1093
Western WA
|
|
January 11, 2009, 12:07:09 PM |
|
Additional info on the Conditioned Taste Aversion (CTA) post above...
The link to Jonathan G. Way's info (including published documents) was bad, and I've corrected it to his current link: http://www.easterncoyoteresearch.com/
Also, I found that the "magic ingredient" used to cause severe nausea in the predatory animals is Lithium Chloride:
From the work of Dr. Lowell Nicolaus: "... we recommended that meat baits be carefully constructed in order to hide 3.0-8.8 g of salty-tasting Lithium Chloride per Kg of meat bait (average: 4.0 g/Kg bait) ..."
He also indicated that 'carefully' was the important word. Other studies where the amount of Lithium Chloride was increased to several times (average 5.5) that did not have the desired results. "Predictably, predators that consumed salty-tasting meat baits, refused to eat salty meat baits again after recovering from illness (showing that CTA had indeed been produced), but continued to attack and consume non-salty baits or live prey."
Sue
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
|
Steve Nicolini
Posts: 224
|
|
January 12, 2009, 01:50:54 PM |
|
Are y'all talking about putting out bait for predators?
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Susan Monroe
Posts: 1093
Western WA
|
|
January 12, 2009, 04:53:11 PM |
|
It is bait in a sense. For instance, if you have chickens and raccoons: put the proper amount of that Lithium chloride in a dead chicken and let the raccoon eat it. The Lithium chloride is not detectable, and it makes the raccoon sick and nauseous. It happens fast enough so the raccoon makes the connection between his sickness and the chicken, so it doesn't want to eat chickens again.
Sue
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Steve Nicolini
Posts: 224
|
|
January 14, 2009, 05:55:30 PM |
|
Does it kill the raccoon? Will the raccoon poop out the lithium and contaminate a healthy forest?
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Susan Monroe
Posts: 1093
Western WA
|
|
January 14, 2009, 07:08:04 PM |
|
No, it doesn't kill them, even at higher doses. Actually, the whole point is NOT to kill them, just to make them associate killing your chickens with being sick.
It's used to treat bipolar problems in people, so it shouldn't be too toxic.
Sue
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Steve Nicolini
Posts: 224
|
|
January 15, 2009, 07:01:29 PM |
|
huh. Well I guess it could be alright, providing the costs are low and they make it in a local chemistry lab
Have there been studies to prove that the predator learns from the poisoning?
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Susan Monroe
Posts: 1093
Western WA
|
|
January 15, 2009, 09:50:41 PM |
|
Yes, see my two links above.
Sue
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Pages: [1] 2
|
|
|
|
|
I have read that the canine lgd's need some time with adults to learn appropriate behaviour. I wonder if llamas might have an advantage because they wouldn't want to "play" with the chickens when young? I like having big dogs around because they are a detterent to two legged "predators" too. I like to be holding the collar of a growling dog with its hackles up when I answer the door. Sends a good message 
I do remember a case in ..?england??? where a sighting of a large housecat got blown way out of proportion by some with a too good imagination who told people they saw a lion, but really wouldn't most people know the difference? and well.... a large house cat couldn't leave long claw marks down both sides of a horse. 
