Atomo Paz

Incoming post dump!

A small update here for the fossil records as I have done a lot of digging. I worried about the legality of what building a cob home would mean, but I think I may have come across a document that completely saves me and my little cob house... and that's called Tennessee's "Right to Farm" law.

In case anyone is interested or is here in the future.. here is the moderately MASSIVE loophole I may have found that would allow my building to be pretty much.. instantly legal? Rather than continue to beat down the building code's doors on this, I turned to the legality of this matter and dove into property law. (Lord save me, lol)

The land I am building on is zoned "AGRICULTURE", meaning that the land is reserved for agriculture use as a means of preserving farm land in Tennessee. If you are producing produce, livestock, or any other agricultured "good" on a commercial level - you're farming, according to Tennessee's law. Commercial level doesn't have to mean CORP, because it can mean something smaller, like a small business LLC, or even selling to a farmers market. I take this next quote from "Tennessee's Law and Resources Pertaining to the Definition of Agriculture":

"Tennessee Law explicitly prohibits counties from regulating agricultural buildings in 5‐1‐122:

5‐1‐122.  Exclusion of agricultural buildings.  
The powers granted to counties by this part do not include the regulation of buildings used primarily for agricultural purposes; it being the intent of the general assembly that the powers granted to counties by this part should not be used to inhibit normal agricultural activities.
See Supporting Documents:
‐ Excerpt from: Shore v. Maple Lane Farms, LLC, 411 S.W.3d 405 (Tenn. 2013). (Page 26)"

Tennessee Law explicitly prohibits counties from requiring building permits for buildings used for agricultural purposes in 13‐7‐114:
13‐7‐114.  Construction ‐‐ Building permits ‐‐ Agricultural use of land ‐‐ Land located in special flood hazard area.

(a) This part shall not be construed as authorizing the requirement of building permits nor providing for
any regulation of the erection, construction, or reconstruction of any building or other structure on lands
now devoted to agricultural uses or which may hereafter be used for agricultural purposes, except on
agricultural lands adjacent or in proximity to state federal‐aid highways, public airports or public parks;
provided, that such building or structure is incidental to the agricultural enterprise. Nor shall this chapter
be construed as limiting or affecting in any way or controlling the agricultural uses of land.

(b) For purposes of this section, buildings used as residences by farmers and farm workers are "incidental
to the agricultural enterprise".

(c) (1) Notwithstanding subsection (a) or any other law to the contrary, a county participating in the
national flood insurance program shall regulate buildings and development on land located in a
special flood hazard area identified on the flood insurance rate map adopted by the county for
purposes of participating in the national flood insurance program, but only to the minimum extent
necessary to comply with the national flood insurance program.
  (2) Subdivision (c)(1) shall apply only to the regulation of buildings and development on land located
within the one hundred‐year floodplain.


Well.. okay. What does that mean? When I first started this thread I mentioned that I wanted to grow my own food, and potentially keep bees, and basically stick to growing food. There were earlier posts about starting an LLC or a CORP as a front, but in Tennessee, it's not a front. Tennessee allows for buildings to be erected without permit so as long as they pertain to the agriculture work on the land as seen above. That DOES extend, actually, to housing! There is a major supporting case for farm housing that Tennessee took as an example from a court in Arizona. The supporting case is documented within this law quote, and I will paste a little of it here. Here is another excerpt from Tennessee Ann. Law:

QUESTION: Does Tenn. Code Ann. § 13-7-114 exempt from county zoning regulation buildings used
as residences by farmers and farm workers?

OPINION: Because buildings used as residences by farmers and farm workers are “incidental to the
agricultural enterprise,” the provisions of Tenn. Code Ann. § 13-7-114 exempt such buildings
located on farm property from county zoning regulation, unless the buildings are located on farm
property “adjacent or in proximity to state federal-aid highways, public airports or public parks.”

ANALYSIS: The statute in question, which is part of the Tennessee statutory provisions governing
zoning in Tennessee counties codified at Tenn. Code Ann. §§ 13-7-101 to -119, provides that
[t]his part shall not be construed as authorizing the requirement of
building permits nor providing for any regulation of the erection,
construction, or reconstruction of any building or other structure on
lands now devoted to agricultural uses or which may hereafter be
used for agricultural purposes, except on agricultural lands
adjacent or in proximity to state federal-aid highways, public
airports or public parks; provided, that such building or structure is
incidental to the agricultural enterprise.
Tenn. Code Ann. § 13-7-114. This provision applies to counties only and has no application to
municipalities. See Tenn. Att’y Gen. Op. 10-12, at 2, n. 1 (Jan. 28, 2010).
By its plain language, this statute provides that the general zoning powers given to county
legislative bodies generally do not authorize the counties to require building permits or otherwise
regulate buildings or other structures on lands devoted to agricultural purposes, provided such
buildings or structures are incidental to those agricultural purposes. Thus, in deciding whether
buildings or structures are excepted from the county’s zoning powers, the question becomes
Page 35
whether those buildings or structures are “incidental to the agricultural enterprise.” Tenn. Code
Ann. § 13-7-114.

This code goes in to explain that so as long as your buildings are not visible from government/county property and etc, that they are well within my right to be housed on my own land while I tend to my business farming. What are the general opinions on this? I am sorry for the text dump, but I wanted to leave a good record for anyone after me. I still intend on concealing my build away from the  gravel road, but now after reading this, I know it is well within my right to live on the property I am farming on even if I haven't obtained a permit for my build. My cob house will be built better than code, and tucked away, but since I am going to be starting up a small LLC business, it's within my right. The land will not be used residentially, but agriculturally, and the house is just a place for me to stay while that's going on. I still want to be off the grid and have thought up a nice rainwater system I will post pictures of, but otherwise I have thought about assembling a shed near the front of my property so I can reach electric to it and potentially wifi. This will, of course, be done under the name of my small farm and the reasoning is so that we can use power tools or anything else we may need on the land. The inspector can check out the shed and give me a permit based on THAT wiring, and won't have to come anywhere near my actual residence since I would be able to have electricity at that 1 building - which you also don't need a permit for, which is also in the right to farm law. Solar panels, parking, and etc are all again, within agricultural understanding in Tennessee. This DOESN'T mean that the county can't ask me for my permits - it just means that farm buildings are very typically excused if the land is ACTUALLY dedicated to harvest and production. Thanks everyone! Here's the link to the law form in case you're in Tennessee too. https://www.tnfarmbureau.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/TN-Law-and-Resources-Pertaining-to-the-Definition-of-Agriculture-Zoning-Farm-Property-Taxes-Multiple-Use-Subclassification.pdf

Will keep updating as I go deeper down the rabbit hole.

Andy John wrote:

Example: what are the size requirements for needing an occupy certification and or zoning permit? Understood that "tiny" homes are not allowed, but what about mobile?  

Here in Tennessee, tiny homes are allowed, they are just strictly regulated. Legally that looks like this: You CAN build a house that is 400 SQFT or LESS, BUT - it MUST have utility hook up with approval from the utility board here, you have to have electric, you have to have fire exits, and it HAS to be on a foundation. They basically 100% blocked people from parking a tiny home trailer on their land because in Tennessee, mobile homes must have a foundation under them, and be "secured to the ground in methods that adhere to building code". There are other regulations too - like on ladders, composting toilets, heating and air conditioning - it's nuts..

My plan for a cob home is going to be that it equals about 500 SQFT total, so it will not qualify as a tiny home. It will be a "smaller single family dwelling that uses a solar system and a rain water collection/filtration system." I will be building the foundation to code, and wooden framing this house. I will be insulating it with strawbale, and covering it with natural plaster (cob). Since the land is Agri, a lot is... allowed, especially rain water collection here. I think that I will be able to get some rules bent, as long as I present this correctly and with the right artistic rendering.

Coming @ the building board and not explaining why I'm passionate about this might just look like me saying "I'm going to live in a strawbale hut drinking rainwater and harvesting sunlight for my 1 lamp in the living room"  


You said you passed up your land.. what did the building board tell you? I know for a fact that the utility board here will not reach water out to our land so our options are rainwater or well water. And well water isn't all that possible either, because our land is sloped and more than likely dry since there aren't really any large trees on the property. We can take our offer on the land back if the utility board tells us something bad. If I can't get the building board to answer us on the solar system/rain water system.. that would stop any house being build there, regardless of if it was cob or "regular".

S Bengi wrote:Built to code means bare minimum required to legally sell this to my enemy, and for the 'banking folks' to underwrite it and insure it. So it is always a good idea to build even better than code. The problem that really pops up is when the gov start charging impact fees of $16,000. Utility connection cost of $30,000. And force 3rd party labor/signature/stamps because other folks have abused the system and so now they have extra rules.

The code book that government officials use allow strawbale and just like lumber, they dont rot and last along time in a house. I would use words like natural plaster/natural stucco vs cob/dirt.

And yes they will know that you have something on the property the trick is to have a permit on file for a greenhouse or a compose area(earth berm house), or a pergola.

I love this. I will definitely watch my words when I submit for approval. I am loving to read all of the colorful and different opinions of everyone here, it has drastically expanded my point of view and I'm so glad I decided to make an account here to start trying to talk about it.

I would like to throw my 2 cents back in and say that my main pain with the building code adventure at the moment, is that it doesn't really seem geared towards protection in my county - more towards ensuring the buildings are on the grid and built borderline the same, and I think that seems to be everywhere.. I'm not going to argue that an exit door in the back of the house would be perfect and keep me safe in the event of a fire. Or that I need to have proper supports for my roof, or maybe even a smoke detector. My problem is with the uniformity and the rules being written around enforcing the grid, house size, and forced limitations on random things even - like loft height, ladder step spacing.. and etc.

I'm frustrated because TN rushed to regulate tiny homes, because we have a lot of people who come to the Smokies and camp in them, and the land here is so pretty.. why WOULDN'T you? The laws they wrote are insanely restrictive, and basically just them saying "Sure you can build a tiny home but it'll be just that - a tiny version of a code regulated and normal house. That's it." They even require special permitting for composting toilets, enforce hot and cold water production (electricity, lol), and regulate the type of foundation it "has" to sit on - can't even be on a trailer. THAT'S the kind of building regulation I'm fed up with at the moment, not someone coming out there and telling me my walls might fall in!

When I did get someone to call me back from the county, he just told me he didn't know the answer to any of my questions. He said off the grid situations are typically approved with an engineering stamp. I am going to be collecting and using rainwater.. I just have so much concern that they're going to stop me from developing on my own property that I'm going to be taxed for, lol. I plan on keeping this thread updated as I seek approval and form my plans, so that way if someone finds the fossils of this post, it may be of help.

I have decided to make a large packet for the submission of my building permit, almost like a power point on natural building and why I want/am choosing to be off the grid. I will include all the normal and factual measurements required, but I'm going to try and pour my heart into my explanation. If they turn me down, looks like I'm throwing up a greenhouse afterall. :) I'm really going to be asking nicely, but at the end of the day, I feel like I'm not asking them - I'm telling them! I should be able to do it and work along with them to meet in the middle.

I will post my drawing plans for my cob house here as soon as I make them!

Jan White wrote:We dont have permits for anything we've done on our land. We wouldn't have been able to afford to do anything if we'd gone that route. My husband just noticed that Google Earth has finally updated and we're now visible.

We did make sure to build to code or better and take pictures as we built in case we need to deal with officials later on.

We also accept the fact that our place might be demolished. If that's the case, we'll peacefully leave...and then come back and build a stealth house, invisible from above. I'd really like to have one started already, but there's always so much else to do.

Thank you so much for your response here. You have no idea how helpful it has been to have the ear of people who live this way and/or have considered it heavily or done it themselves. With the help of you all I learned to also ask about the requirements of engineer/architect stamps - and found that Tennessee does NOT require architect stamps on single family dwellings, just engineer stamps for things that might need approval. I have slightly modified my plans to include immediately submitting for building permits and approval once we purchase the land, and putting together a huge packet on natural building, and include as many details as possible (including the mixture ratio for my walls over the hay). All while I build one on the back of the lot, both as a test and a shelter as I move through that process.

I plan on taking many pictures like you did and putting together a photo album of everything used and how we used it along with documented measurements. I so admire your family's guts! I wish I wasn't so afraid of things like that sometimes, but I guess the more you build the thicker skin you get about people telling you what you can and cant do.

Thank you so much!

S Bengi wrote:I would build the following things
A shed that is 10ft by 20ft with a loft - bed area or even a RV (a plausible answer as to why you were onsite all night)
A regular address in the city, for your tax return, banking, drivers license. (Probably a friend, cousin, partner home, that you sleep at, say once a month, this will 'prove' that you don't live onsite)
And finally your earth-sheltered house on the 1 acres. (on the outside it will be ugly/hidden aka not beautiful cob, but on the inside you can make it as cozy as you want)

You aren't just hiding your house from folks driving on the road but also from drones/satellites.  And also the sweet grandma that you met, her son-in-law works for the permit office, and guess what she innocently mentioned at the family BBQ on Sunday (I met a nice youngster who is living off the land in a hut next door).

I LOVE the hidden house link you sent in. It feels like exactly what I am going for! I laughed pretty hard about the family BBQ, but here in the south you're probably right on the money, lol. I am exploring things like "skid" foundations for cabins/small homes and things like that as well.. which might also make it simpler to manage a small eco-home/cob house. (Though I'm unsure how a cob house on skids would work unless it was a firm wooden/sealed floor for it).

I come from the van-life community, so small living and trying to be as efficient as possible isn't too far from home. I am just hoping that my cob design, in the winter, isn't revealed once all the trees shed their leaves and well.. there I'd be!

I have family in the city that will be letting me use their address and get mail there for as long as I need to, so nothing will be tied out there minus me just being out there. My only growing concern now is getting water out there. I'll keep everyone posted.. I think I'm going to make an offer on the land tomorrow.

Hi there!

I have a question if you don't mind. I am currently in the process of exploring Cob options in my area and it seems grim when it comes to building codes - but I am leaning on just building it anyway. Did you go through your county? If so, did they give you any trouble on approving this? Or are you doing this on your own? Thanks!!

I want to add an addition here:

I met some neighbors today. They were EXTREMELY nice and understanding. Little old woman! I explained to her that my goals are gardening and land improvement, and that we just don't want to be a bother. She said there was no way we would disturb anyone. I loved her! My only existing concern around that would now be that it seems the land was family land (like the surrounding land IS owned by.. someone? who lives nearby. It was 1 acre of the surrounding 10 that aren't for sale) The land was/is commonly used as a burning ground for old wood and things the family didn't need. There's a lot of debris like old wood, charred wood, buckets, trash, and things like that. Concerned about people potentially trying to come onto the property post-purchase.. any advice?

I am not afraid of being discovered, I just want to make sure I'm well hidden but well developed. Ultimately, I think I will be having to catch rain water since the $20,000 quotes to bring public water to the land just blew my mind. The man over the building and inspections board says he hasn't ever gotten a call over someone wanting to go completely off the grid, and he wasn't sure how it would happen since I needed "inspections and approval from the utility board" before I can "occupy" the home.

Overall, I think my cob """"shed"""" will be a nice place to """cool off""" while I'm there tending to the animals and plants and trying to improve the soil.

Still VERY open to ideas and especially critique! Thanks

S Bengi wrote:You mentioned that you want a cob house with 24 inch exterior wall and huge roof overhangs. What will the following parts be built from:
Foundation: Concrete?
Floor: Concrete Slab, Plywood+Lumber?
Stem Wall: Concrete?
Roof Bond Beam: Lumber?
Roof: Lumber + Plywood + ?
Insulation: Foam, Hay?
Interior Walls: Lumber and Drywall?

There are house use strawbale for insulation and then add cob on the exterior of the walls.

Hi again! :) So since it seems the land has no genuine water or electric hook ups and no pre-existing septic fields.. looks like I'm free to explore this acre however I see fit..

For the cob home I was thinking of using strawbale, and coating the outside with a thick layer of cob. I understand that strawbale tends to decay as it is a natural material, but it might be a better place to start for me. For the foundation, the surrounding ground near where the house would be best situated is actually somewhat akin to sheet rock. There are large rocks and boulders around since its pretty far up in the mountain-y area. I want to use plywood and lumber, since I think concrete at the moment would be better reserved for my efforts at building the main structure on the property that I will have to get a permit for. What are your favorite building materials for cob? What works best in your opinion? Thanks! :)

S Bengi wrote:I recommend building a earth sheltered house, live in it for 10yrs (120months) and take the money that you saved from not paying rent (100,000) and build a city legalhouse.

If possible before you start get a permit for a greenhouse and shed, that way when they look on google maps and see a park car, few solar panels, etc. It will not be too suspicious. And with a permit for the greenhouse you can get a water connection and without a matching sewer connection. Likewise when you get a electricity/cable/tv, it will not raise any flags, you could even get a mailbox.

You could just build a greenhouse and the put a tent/yurt inside of it, but doing that for 10yrs seems very hard.

Yes! I love this idea. I actually got in contact with the building department today. It turns out we are not in a city boundary but in a county boundary, so that CAN, in theory, make it easier. They still require you to have electric and water hook ups before you are granted the ability to "occupy" your home. However, Tennessee allows the right to farm, which basically means that I can construct or erect any structure without permit as long as it pertains to agriculture or farming. The greenhouse would be permit free and easy to build. Additionally, the land is on quite a slope I found out today.. I'd say it's mostly sloped with no flat portions. So my plan was to use an earthen/grass roof and dig slightly into the wall of the slope so that my cob home would be hidden from the road by the slope, and the grass top would look like a continuation of the slope.

My only problem with this is 1 that I am terrified of going through with this! Lol. Second, I KNOW it would take so long to get any electric or water available out there since the nearest house with a water hook up is still about 200 feet away and around a wooded curve. They quoted me an estimate of about $20,000. WHAT?!

Rob Lineberger wrote:I am in a similar situation to you.  I've passed up tract after tract of land within the city limits because of code.  It's not that I want to skirt safety concerns, but its because a round home simply does not fit into code.  "Are your floor joists 16" on center?"  No.  No, they aren't.  I don't have any floor joists.  I don't have any framing studs or drywall.

I just know that the conversation is gonna go something like "can I Live here?"  "No.  No, you can't."

If you build your home there in secret, then you are building your homestead on fear and secrecy.  You will always have in the back of your mind, what if someone finds out, or something crazy like a fire or sewage leak happens, and then you're evicted and your house torn down.  

By the way, here they use Google satellite to detect changes in a property for tax assessment purposes.  So if your home can see the sky in any way, they can see your home.

There are two routes I am exploring.  One is, buy light industrial land or agricultural as you have done, then set up a corporation.  That's very easy to do. This corporation is about, say, permaculture studies and education. Nothing you buy belongs to you, it belongs to the corporation.  The point of the land is not a residence, it is a caretaker or an education center. Then all you need to do is get an occupancy permit for one of the buildings.  I recommend you make the bathroom look very familar to them.  Getting an occupancy permit is easier than getting your house inspected.  Technically they are the same criteria but you'll get different inspectors, or the same inspectors who are expecting something out of the ordinary. Your home will receive a "Maximum occupancy" designation but you don't care about that, right?  As long as the number is as big as your family size.

The second route is an architect's stamp.  If you draw up detailed plans, either by yourself or with the architect's help, and the home meets the architect's standards, she might stamp your plans as verified.  I've heard mixed things but where I am the general rule is an architect's stamp supercedes a standard city inspection. Architects vary but I'm expecting to pay about $15,000 for this.

I'm doing what I can to minimize that cost by researching as thoroughly as possible and making scale models of what I intend to build so that concerns can be addressed head on.

Good luck!

We seem to have really similar ideas! My secondary idea was to start a small "retreat" center, since I am really close to a lot of yoga instructors and healing arts centers here in town. In fact, I am a massage therapist who specializes in pain therapy and holistic remedies.. it would work. If I built a building as a part of an LLC business, or CORP., would that building need to meet the same requirements as a traditional home? Even if I tell them I'm not occupying it as a residence, is it still going to get hit by building codes? Or does that mean that they just have to be sure the building is safe enough to occupy, and not "live" in which might take more steps?

I really agree with what you said about living in fear on your own land. I don't want to do that at all, and I know it gets hairy when it comes to actually putting plans into reality rather than just dreaming them up. I think of it like trying to get creative with this local government while joyfully refusing to pay to play their game on certain things. I don't think I could afford an architect's stamp sadly. I'd like to build on this land legitimately even if they don't immediately say "YES" to cob/natural building. Honestly, I am just dreading the fees that might come with it. I can't even get the county to answer my phone calls or messages regarding it.