Paul Ebert

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since Mar 23, 2014
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Recent posts by Paul Ebert

Well,We might not get too far.I talked with the potential customer and they may have unrealistic budget goals.
The good news is a pole under each of the inner bents is Ok,so smaller dimension timbers can be used.They're hoping for a max of $10k from the sounds of it.The materials alone will eat a lot of that figuring in the roofing materials and steel.We'll probably have to go with common rafters.I'll compare the prices of those and timber trusses and purlins.Now,that i know we can use a post under the long cross beams ,it's just a matter of over building everything .I tend to do that anyways.Meeting their budget may be the biggest challenge.
**Pardom my LACK of terminology here.
I'm thinking 8x8x10' for the 8 posts,8" x 8" x 8' for the support posts,6x8,6x6 or 8x8 for the almost 20' tie beams? 6x6 for the gerts between the bents[H 's]
4x4 for the angle braces[knee braces?] 4x6 x12' loft floor joists on 2' centers on each end.[open middle bay] 2x6 common rafters on 2' centers[if used] A 3x8 set of rafter plates on the side wall tops OR 6x6 for queen style trussses and 4x6 purlins,if we go this route. 4/4 roof boards.
This is the style of my shop build but quite a bit heavier overall.
Let the feedback begin.thanks
thanks Jay.you gave me alot of information there.I appreciate it.I'm good with either keeping this here or going private.After all ,you didn't solicit me for the work originally.I did you.I'm going to talk to the person and get exactly what she wants as far as clear span or if we can figure a couple support posts inside for the two inner bents.I'll get back to you and we can go from there.
Just to be clear.:this is a 20x30 ft.=600sq.ft. add two 10 x20 lofts so a total 1000 sq.ft used for calculating price? ie: 1000 x 25 sq.ft.= $25000 including but plus roofing steel?I'm just doing the frame and roof.
In my earlier posts I had pictures of my shops,which i made myself.A potential customer saw them and asked if I could make her one.I've attached a picture of what they will be looking for.The barn will be 20'x30' with atleast a 9:12 pitch,with 4/4 boards under steel roof.. I'm looking for advice on how many bents and timber sizes to use.I'll be using either hemlock or larch should we procede with this.I know there are different grades of wood ,so just figure average with no serious knots.I'd like to stay at 8x8 or smaller if at all possible ,even if it means another bent.I'll most likely be putting this up by hand with a couple helpers.To keep their cost down some ,I'll be figuring on using draw peg jointery on the lower structure and most likely spiked or lagged roof structure.I'm thinking a queen post design on each bent to help support the cross beams,allowing for a free span inside.
I'll even consider paying someone to draw things up for me .This will be going up in upstate NY if that comes into play.Thanks in advance.
great table and great built.He makes a very difficult build look easy in this video.I've built a few hand tools only tables and benches."ALOT of physical labor involved"This guy has many good Hand tools build videos on youtube.
7 years ago
what about two smaller 4" models side by side.The second as a back up in really cold times.The smaller first to avoid too much heat yet allow for mass when it goes out?Could you run both burners into the same group of flues and mass pipes?Maybe I'm overthinking this,hah.
7 years ago
I was asking about burner size to heat a shop this size.
7 years ago
Jay,That makes sense.I would still use one in my application to assure the floor doesn't get too hot.FWIW.
My shop will 20x40 and have an 18' high peak, open to it from the floor. What size setup would be recomemmended for this area?8",6" two 4"?
7 years ago

Cindy Mathieu wrote:If you are building a rocket heater on a wood floor, you need to incorporate an air gap between the wood and your burn tunnel. The layers might be the wood floor, stone, bricks to create air gap, another piece of stone, then, the burn tunnel. A detailed recommendation for this is found in the 3rd edition of Rocket Mass Heaters on page 68.

The burn tunnels do get very hot and because the fire is usually down lower than in a cast iron stove, the wood floor is subject to spontaneous combustion without proper precautions.



Thanks Cindy.your units look great.This lower /underneath the burner spot seems like a good place to install small fan or two to draw air and heat out to add to the heater's efficiency. The fans could easily be run by a small solar panel or minimal electricity.This would keep the floor cooler also.
7 years ago
thanks jay,The shop is being made from Green Hemlock timbers so movement is likely in one way or another.That's the biggest reason I did what i did.i figured the housed joints would add to the integerity of the joints over the long haul as the timbers dry out.
7 years ago

Jay C. White Cloud wrote:O.K. Paul, if you don't mind, I am going to "dissect" your post and see if I can break some of it down and perhaps alter a few points for clarity and correction.


In this picture you can see that I cut out the post

I will take that you mean "jointed" the post when you write "cut."

where the cross timber seats to for a shelf of sorts.

Well the "cross timber" is the "bent girt" or "bent beam" those between the different bents (primarily European modalities but also in Middle Eastern and Asian as well as in other timber framing cultures) are called "connecting girts" or "or connecting beams."

The "seat" that forms a "shelf" is the joints "bearing point" and is generally, in its entirety, called a "housing."

As a green timber dries it will shrink so if the peg hole in the tenon is a tight round fit ,the peg will end up bearing all the load . The shrinkage will lift the cross timber off the shelf.By elongating the tenon hole vertically the cross beam can settle back down on the shelf as it dries.

That is neither traditional, nor good practice. The "bearing point" of the "housing" should take all the primary load that is subjected to the joint from gravity and all tectonic loads. That part you have correct. In in many designs, the peg is only there for getting the frame together, and could be remove latter, as it is not really needed at all. Better yet, do not design joints that need pegs, but instead relies on a "draw or compression" wedge, or gravity to make the joint work over time. "Draw pinning" is the method of keeping joints tight both in general format and to the beary surface and this is done by "offsetting" the "trunnel" or "peg" hole in the receiving (mortised) member, not by elongating the hole in the tenon which is not traditional or necessary. I would also not that oblique braces are often not peg at all (nor should they be as they work in compression load only,) nor is there enough "relish" in the long grain of the brace tenon to make the pegs functional, often making the joint weaker and failing as oblique braces do in general the smaller they get in length, as they react to tectonics within the frame making them a fulcrum on the nearest joint. Most (almost the majority) of timber frames built through history (other than in Europe and the last 400 years by Europeans in North America) do not use oblique bracing, but instead use "horizontal" bracing modalities. The Middle East through to Japan, has relied on "horizontal" bracing and tying systems more successful against tectonic load than anywhere else in the world, and still do. This is why they have the oldest frames and the oldest sustained timber framing cultures (other than some small pockets in the Swiss Alps and Carpathian mountains.)

Sorry that got long winded, but it was warranted. Thanks for making it possible and good luck with your timber faming. Let me know if I can help (or confuse ) you more than I have thus far.

Regards,

j



ok Jay,that's why I prefaced thew post with "I'
m a Novice" I can only teach what I found.I did draw pin them when I did them to bring them tight.I went with what I read when researching.I'm not a big termanology guy so keep it in simple terms to avoid using the wrong term.Thanks for the clarification.i'm sure the others can learn more from your experience.
7 years ago