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Summary

Paul continues his call with Ash Jackson, Ashley Cottonwood, and Jen Richardson on the subject of the Click.

Despite people claiming that they’re tired of the perpetual hair-on-fire mode from the sense of urgency, they tend to continue with what they’re doing regardless of the flame, and over time the height of the flames has drastically subsided.  In the haste to get neck-deep, some projects tend to get abandoned and wind up just taking up space and time to either finish them after the person working on them leaves, or removing them, either way igniting more hair.  Jen suggests adjusting the concept to “wouldn’t it be cool…” in an effort to stem the sense of desperation.

Everybody wants to join a community that’s already full, but the only way to be in that community without it costing tens of thousands of dollars is to join it early, but you don’t know which communities are going to stick around.  After reaching the tipping point, the goal is less “trying to create a paradise” and more we’re there enough that suddenly there’s a flood of people that want to be a part of this, and growing pains become an issue.  This is why keeping the place tidy and not littered with trash, half-finished projects, and tools is important to Paul.  Not just so that it looks nice and all the tools don’t go missing, but to try and make the land more inviting and reach that tipping point sooner, to try and get the labs self-sufficient both monetarily and in terms of food production.  

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COMMENTS:
 
Posts: 215
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These three podcasts make so much sense to me. It was probably 18 years ago I heard about this alternative design college back east. It sounded amazing. The pictures were incredible. I applied for the internship... and didn't get it. 😫 And yet I couldn't get these ideas out of my head. Natural building techniques, holy crap cob how amazeballs, which lead to minimalism if you follow the why's and so on (or at least that's the path I diverted down), then gardening, then look at what's in your food omfg. Then I couldn't figure out what to eat because it's all terrible for [all the reasons] etc etc. So many things I wanted to do! Until, like Ash, I caved to the people around me telling me it's not worth it or it's unattainable and let it slide. So it sits festering in the back of my mind, my early 20s self with her little camp fire in a corner of my head keeping the flame alive.

But this podcast. Especially this last segment where you're going through your hair on fire list. Shit you NEED to get done. I feel that so much. Earlier y'all had mentioned drinking out of the firehose. I laid down last night and told my partner, "That's me right now. I'm drinking out of the fire hose. And you're like, Yep, there's a fire hose there," and he agreed. But dammit I want him to push me aside and demand that fire hose too! I'm finally at a place in life with my job being something I don't care about enough to stay, finances at a relatively good place, partner is game, home is mobile. I'm sitting on the bootcamp waiting list on the edge of my seat, eagerly awaiting the day I can tell my supervisor I'm leaving to go do something that actually matters. I'm reading through every single Boot thread, gleaning as much information about life there so I'm ready to jump into all the projects. I can barely fall asleep at night because my mind won't stop with all of this lately. And maybe I just really need something to give me purpose in life right now, but the status quo hasn't been cutting it and my hair definitely feels like it's on fire.

Thank you for continuing with this podcast. 🖖🏻
 
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It's horrible and wonderful.  

And you are choosing to come suffer with us.  
 
Jen Tuuli
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paul wheaton wrote:It's horrible and wonderful.  

And you are choosing to come suffer with us.  



Can't wait. 😁
 
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So while I have not experienced the click and actually don't wish to as it seems a very hard and all consuming path, I  very much respect and support those who have.

Perhaps in a similar way to Paul describes how he feels about people who choose a vegan lifestyle. A noble path that is not for everyone.

One thing that struck me while listening to part 3 was Paul's desire to have a place so clean and food so healthy and nutritious that someone with cancer could come and live there and their cancer would just resolve on its own.

I have been studying recently about the effects of excess omega 6 fats in our diets and how there is more and more research showing that they are one of the major causes of diseases like macular degeneration, cardiovascular disease and cancer.

Populations that have very little omega 6 in their diets have very low rates of these diseases and as the amounts of omega 6 go up so do the rates of the diseases.

Macular degeneration can be haulted by removing omega 6 from the diet.

Lab rodents actually won't develop cancers unless also fed a special diet high in omega 6. When they are using them for studying the causes and treatments for cancers.

Cardiovascular disease was almost unheard of before the rates of omega 6 consumptions began to go up.

Omega 6 is primarily from manufactured seed oils. Corn, soy, canola, sunflower, etc. Those oils being organic or not doesn't effect the disease rates.


The article below does a better job of explaining it than I probably could.


https://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2020/12/27/linoleic-acid-health-effects.aspx

Love the podcasts and thanks for all you do!
 
pollinator
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Can you take some temperature readings from the wofati even if it's not occupied?  Please and thanks.

I have a lot to say about this, am really glad I've listened to it--will post more after I finish.  

 
paul wheaton
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Joshua Myrvaagnes wrote:Can you take some temperature readings from the wofati even if it's not occupied?  



Yes!

Will we?  Very doubtful.
 
Joshua Myrvaagnes
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I had in mind just once a month, and assuming it doesn't necessitate anyone getting exposed to anything toxic.  It wouldn't be giving us an exact reading of it but if it makes the concept that much closer to proven that's worth a lot to people considering building one.  Not trying to put more fire on your hair, just seems like a small amount of investment for a decent return.  Thanks again Jen for all the temperature readings you've been giving us!
 
Joshua Myrvaagnes
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paul wheaton wrote:

Joshua Myrvaagnes wrote:Can you take some temperature readings from the wofati even if it's not occupied?  



Yes!

Will we?  Very doubtful.


Awesome! just saw your reply.  Thanks.
 
Joshua Myrvaagnes
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I'm so glad you shared about your story, Paul, it makes it much clearer where you're coming from and why you're doing things in the particular way.  A lot of it was already clear, but this filled in some important pieces.

I also didn't get that you'd been so intimately involved in the communities movement, maybe I just missed that piece about helping incubate communities but that should definintely be in the thorns book as helping clarify the context for that.

I still think there are innovations in cooperation that are worth learning from outside the communities movement--drL, movement communication.  Things that go beyond sociocracy and consensus decisionmaking.

--



I so strongly identify with the click.  I also feel there have been so many different clicks in my life which I thought I had to do, and of course I can't do non-sustainable anything sustainably but I have to do these other things once I've gotten my house in order.  If I can get most of my food from people nearby whose methods feel right to me, heat with a reasonable amount of wood, basically be in the black ecologically, then I have always thought I would put my time into art-making and teaching.  It's not disconnected from creating a better world, but it's more indirect.

But I also think of the post-toxin, post-automobile, post-degenerative-disease, post-petroleum world as inevitable, it's so clear to me that I sometimes don't feel the same pressure that it has to be me who gets us there.  If it takes a few generations to get there, that's OK.  It's just the deception that I find demoralizing (fake progress dressed up as progress).  But an honest "this is a transitional measure" propane tank with a real plan for what's going to replace it feels tolerable to me.

Would I like to be neck-deep in permaculture? absolutely.  Can I feel OK about just making real net progress toward that (vs. fake progress)? usually.  Am I making real progress? mostly.  This year was a mixed bag, going from electric baseboard heating to oil forced air...out of the frying pan and into the fire.  But I managed to pass the ecoposer test.  

I'm too bonkers about permaculture for most people around me and not quite enough to be able to tolerate and figure out the worky-job thingy and make the money to make a permaculture paradise happen through sheer force of will.  

To be continued
 
Joshua Myrvaagnes
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Other tools from outside the intentional community world--such as this one: http://permaculture-podcast.com/Podcast/2012/Wheaton-permaculture-120-aquaculture-and-aquaponics.mp3

Have you ever done that at the Lab?  paired programming, facilitating the hive mind, going from one star player to a group that is a star collectively.  This is what I'm talking about.
 
paul wheaton
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We strongly encourage pair programming here at the lab.   I think the only time people work alone is when they request it, or they ask for exceptions to what is being worked on for the day.  Or it is something that only one person can do (like drive the tractor).

 
Joshua Myrvaagnes
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Awesome.  I'd love to hear more detail about how it plays out, how precisely it is applied and translated to permaculture.  I just posted in the tinkering forum.  From an initial web search it looks like many software companies will start to try it out but not follow through on the full requirements and then say it didn't work.  I'd love to know how often people switch roles.  
 
Joshua Myrvaagnes
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So, the other thing I wanted to say was that the click parallels so many people stories of spiritual awakenings.  But with permaculture there isn't a ready-made religion to accommodate it, and it has to be embodied in scientifically, empirically verifiable form.  Yet it also has an invisible element to it.  One person's permaculture is another person's poser-culture.  How much is OK to buy off the shelf? how much is OK to offload onto society's responsibility? how much toxin level is no big deal?  how much CAFO factor is acceptable?  The inner awakening is different for different people, it seems, but there's no arguing with anyone's inner truth.

I need to move forward toward what my inner and outer senses are telling me, both.  Neither on its own is sufficient.

There is a zone 00, and to "permaculture-ify" zone 00 means...more natural coordination of movement, expansion of thought.

None of this has an ending point either.  It's possible to continue infinitely to serve human care, earth care, and ____________ third ethic stuff.  Human appetite is unending, nature's appetites can be seemingly extended forever.  Wouldn't female polar bears be happier living in a world where male polar bears didn't hunt after them to mate with them, eat their cubs, not bring them any food, etc.?  if so, how do we find out? do they like the challenge? what is appropriate for humans to do about it?  It will be centuries before I see us humans being ready to tackle that problem, though, since first we have to clean up our own house.

It's been a hard year for me, as for many.   I want to learn SKIP skills, but it has sometimes felt sterile and forced without some degree of human community around when doing the work.  I'm glad to have the opportunity to do them, but there's something I haven't yet understood about myself in relationship to them.  

But I do feel that need to change things, and not just superficially but whole cloth.





Joshua Myrvaagnes wrote:I'm so glad you shared about your story, Paul, it makes it much clearer where you're coming from and why you're doing things in the particular way.  A lot of it was already clear, but this filled in some important pieces.

I also didn't get that you'd been so intimately involved in the communities movement, maybe I just missed that piece about helping incubate communities but that should definintely be in the thorns book as helping clarify the context for that.

I still think there are innovations in cooperation that are worth learning from outside the communities movement--drL, movement communication.  Things that go beyond sociocracy and consensus decisionmaking.

--



I so strongly identify with the click.  I also feel there have been so many different clicks in my life which I thought I had to do, and of course I can't do non-sustainable anything sustainably but I have to do these other things once I've gotten my house in order.  If I can get most of my food from people nearby whose methods feel right to me, heat with a reasonable amount of wood, basically be in the black ecologically, then I have always thought I would put my time into art-making and teaching.  It's not disconnected from creating a better world, but it's more indirect.

But I also think of the post-toxin, post-automobile, post-degenerative-disease, post-petroleum world as inevitable, it's so clear to me that I sometimes don't feel the same pressure that it has to be me who gets us there.  If it takes a few generations to get there, that's OK.  It's just the deception that I find demoralizing (fake progress dressed up as progress).  But an honest "this is a transitional measure" propane tank with a real plan for what's going to replace it feels tolerable to me.

Would I like to be neck-deep in permaculture? absolutely.  Can I feel OK about just making real net progress toward that (vs. fake progress)? usually.  Am I making real progress? mostly.  This year was a mixed bag, going from electric baseboard heating to oil forced air...out of the frying pan and into the fire.  But I managed to pass the ecoposer test.  

I'm too bonkers about permaculture for most people around me and not quite enough to be able to tolerate and figure out the worky-job thingy and make the money to make a permaculture paradise happen through sheer force of will.  

To be continued



 
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Wow, I have to say I'm impressed with those who experienced the click. Paul is slowly attracting a group of truly amazing people. I had to laugh at myself a bit when during these three podcasts I started feeling a bit left out. Paul was saying he was making these podcasts for perhaps 12 people and I was like "gee, lol, what about me?". Silly way to feel though. These podcasts are an amazing resource and I'm going to listen and maintain my patreon support even if I'm not 100% the target audience.
Up till 2 years ago I had listened to every podcast but I got a bit distracted by this cancer problem I'm working on. Anyway I'm back to being pain free now so I'm catching up.
 
Yeah, but how did the squirrel get in there? Was it because of the tiny ad?
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