Julio Budreaux

Seth Marshall wrote:
Hi Julio!  I know this post is old,  it came upon it as I’m looking for a better propagation system and was interested in fabric pots for final growing this summer. Just the usual small garden items for a family. I live in Colorado at 7500’ and don’t have a greenhouse. My biggest problem is not being able to get an early start, we often get big snow storms in May.  I’m clear after Memorial Day but the next major hurdle I’ve discovered is the ground seems to be too cold for significant growth. Though we have crazy hot days with punishing sunshine in June, I don’t see significant growth until July.

I’ve always planted in the ground but last spring I used a 10 gallon fabric pot for a plant that seemed to grow much better. I even measured the temp on the top of the fabric pot and it was higher than the garden in the ground— I believe because the surrounding earth pulls the heat away from my normal garden.

So I’m thinking of planting everything I want (tomatoes, cucumbers, herbs...) in fabric pots that I can put outside as early as May (and bring them in when it snows or has a cold snap), and with the additional warmth from the earth not sucking the heat away I hope to finally have a productive garden this summer.

The fabric pots I’ve used are these: VIVOSUN 5-Pack 25 Gallon Plant Grow Bags, Premium Series 300G Thichkened Non-Woven Aeration Fabric Pots w/Handles - Reinforced Weight Capacity & Extremely Durable (Black) https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B00VWU30EK/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_glt_fabc_VVW0K1HFDRK160682ASA?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1
Have you tried this type before?  Do they perform well for air pruning purposes which benefits contain plants?

Also, for propagation trays, why specifically did you NOT like the RM injected cells?  Why were the smaller  RM trays better for you?  Thank you

Hi, Seth!

What you're saying about in-ground vs above-ground growing, especially in your climate, makes a lot of sense. A ground temperature above 65* in your garden is important for root growth; it sounds like this does not occur in your particular micro-climate until much later in the year. Cases like this are one of the textbook examples of where container or raised-bed gardening makes sense. Depending on your site, you may find building permanent or semi-permanent raised beds to be more appropriate than container gardening, or vice-versa.

If you are intent on going the container route, I have used and continue to use the Vivosun grow bags; they work well. I have also used other brands--such as Gardzen on Amazon--that work equally well and cost less. I do not believe the mechanism is the same between grow bags and airpot-type containers (root trapping vs air pruning) but the end effect remains the same: a ridiculous rootball and the ability to keep a plant potted for longer before the need to up-pot. One thing I've learned, though, is to mix the potting medium for more moisture retention than you would use in something like a plastic or terracotta pot; fabric pots and airpot-style containers dry out much more quickly than traditional containers. If your mix normally calls for ~32 fl oz of vermiculite per 6 gallons of medium, consider doubling it; if it calls for 1 part perlite to 4 parts peat moss, consider a 1:6 ratio instead... Things like that.

The RootMaker propagation cells were difficult to pack efficiently, dried out too quickly, and I didn't see any real difference between plants grown in them vs. more traditional propagation trays. The RootMaker propagation trays had more impressive root development than the injection-molded cells but were far less sturdy and it was pretty inconvenient to get the seedlings out for transplanting. I've found the BangQiao pots to be my preferred containers for starting seeds. If they made 5- or 10-gallon containers in the same style, I wouldn't use anything else. They're amazing.

Timothy Markus wrote:Thanks for setting me straight.

Timothy,

The BangQiao air-pruning containers I mentioned in my post above have replaced the RootMaker II blow-molded propagation cells/tray as my favored seed-starting containers. I thought you'd enjoy learning that since we had the discussion earlier in the thread. If you're interested, I'd recommend checking them out! They're very reasonably priced, as well.

Update:

So far, I've only gotten a handful of sprouts (four total--yeah, yikes). Towards the end of July, I dug up the seeds in the Air-Pots and they simply didn't crack. The soil seemed moist enough, but the seeds themselves apparently weren't viable. This was the same for the 1-gallon tallboy tree pots. It was a huge disappointment.

Three sprouts germinated in the RootMaker II pots, and one in an Air Pot. I still have the remaining RMII's filled and planted, but I will likely dig them up towards the end of August to recycle the soil into my garden.

This makes two years in a row that I have had very-to-extremely low germination rates, though I am still ahead in seed cost vs purchasing seedlings (where the KSU seedlings cost $25 each). However, once the cost of the planters are included, I'm in the red. I do not intend on purchasing Pawpaw seeds from Baker Creek next season.

Next year, I will scale back the experiment; purchase all-new, fresh seeds direct from KSU; and add the RediRoot pots to the experiment.  I will also attempt to transplant 2-3 wild suckers into each brand of air pruning containers to include in the grow-parison.

For the time being, I moved all of the seedlings, and the two wild suckers I pulled from a patch, into RMII 1-gal pots and they seem to be doing well. The seedlings which sprouted in the RMII are noticeably healthier and more vigorous than the one that began in the Air Pot, though they are also about a month older. A few of my 3-year-old trees in 5-gallon containers with holes drilled seem to be suffering from a calcium deficiency, so they will be going in the ground next spring--but it is important to note that the 5-gal containers are not set up as "root pruning" containers per say, they simply have a few holes drilled along the circumference halfway down and again at the bottom to allow a bit of air exchange for the root zone.

Outside of the pawpaws, I have used those 3-gallon fabric containers Jeni Lee sent me (thanks, Jeni!) for my White Mulberry trees and they are THRIVING. I've found them easy to maintain with watering and, like I said, the trees seem to be enjoying their new homes! I can't comment on the root-pruning aspect of the RediRoot fabric containers just yet, but I expect them to work at least as well as any other fabric container, though they do seem to be built more sturdily than those I've tried in the past.

And, for what it is worth, I've also found another brand of air-pruning containers from China that are INCREDIBLY cheap, and have done well for my smaller plants over the summer. Unfortunately, the largest size is 6 inches, so about 1 liter in volume. The brand name is BangQiao if anyone is interested and they can be found on Amazon. I will be using these for my vegetable starts next year, as I have been very impressed so far.

Thanks for all of your interest in following this thread--I will start a new one once planting gets under way next spring!

I have updated the information towards the top of the thread!

Trace Oswald wrote:I really want to try a commercial root pruning system of some sort, but everywhere I look it seems you have to buy these in huge lots.  I would like to try gradually stepping up in size the way I have seen recommended, from propagation cells to 1 gal pots, to 3 gal pots, and so on, but I'm not willing to buy a large number of these at one time just to test them out.  Not to mention, most of the sites selling these systems are not as user friendly as I would like.  It's kind of disappointing.

You can order onsie-twosie from Root Maker, and Amazon will sell AirPot-style pots singularly, as well. However, these are both expensive options for a single pot when shipping is included.

Timothy Markus wrote:I thought you ranked them #1.  Were you talking about something else?

Yes, I was talking about the 1-gal Injection Molded RootMakerII pots; I don't consider the propagation cells to be "containers" so I didn't include them in the ranking system.

This is the 1-gal injection-molded RM pot (7.5" Height; 6.5" Inside Top Diameter; 7" Top Diameter.  Volume - 190 cubic inches):



here are the injection-molded propagation cells (Cell Dimensions - 3.125" X 3.125" X 4".  Cell Volume 25 Cubic Inches):



and here is the blow-molded RM propagation tray I prefer (Cell Dimensions - 2.25" X 2.25" X 4".  Cell Volume - 11 Cubic Inches):

Timothy Markus wrote:This is what I like about the Rootmaker pots:

[...]

It sure looks like it would be the most effective way of training roots.

Yeah, those injection-molded cells certainly look like they would do a good job, but I have been pretty disappointed with them.

The blow-molded cell-trays have given me better results for starting seeds, and I've had really good results with the 1-gal pots for many other plants (three mulberries, four fig cuttings, a western soapberry, and two echinacea). Pawpaw are just difficult to sprout, but I knew that going in.

Update

May 30:

I had a few weed seeds that sprouted from my compost in two of my RM pots, and when I pulled them out I figured I'd check on the pawpaw seeds in those pots, as they should at least have grown a sizeable taproot by this point. They were both duds. :( I knew it was a longshot with the seeds from last year (pawpaw seeds don't hold well) but I'm keeping my fingers crossed for the rest of the bunch.

Nothing to report on the AP or TB.

Kai Walker wrote:I can get cheap used plain food grade 5-gal buckets with lids at walmart bakery for 2 for $1.00 !
I may make more of those pots. But it takes 2 hours to make one :-(

Now THAT is a deal! Whenever I've made them it's only taken me about 5 - 10 min per bucket. What system are you using?

bob day wrote: I started thinking about  making a contraption that could easily turn a regular throw away  garden pot into something with all those outward facing cone shaped holes [...]
Anyway, I saw this post  and wondered if anyone else has thought about this  or constructed some apparatus (failures just as valuable as successes) before I get busy and actually start working on the project.

No, I've not ever thought of something like that. I'd be interested in seeing a prototype if you were to put one together!

Scott Foster wrote:I'm a fan of Akiva at twisted tree farms.  I've had my eye on this method for a while but haven't done it yet.

I had a bed almost identical to those shown in the video at my last house and attempted to grow spinach and arugula in them. They were INCREDIBLY hard to keep watered (too much exposed surface area in my hot climate) and the spinach died from lack of water, while the arugula bolted early and became far too peppery for my tastes. Perhaps something like zucchini or strawberries would do better, but keeping them watered would continue to be a struggle for me here in Central Arkansas. Besides, I gave up on zucchini (vine borers are really bad around here and I don't use pesticides, so it's a losing battle for me) and my strawberries seem to be enjoying their hugelbed just fine.

Kai Walker wrote:

Julio Budreaux wrote:

Kai Walker wrote:Here is a youtube explanation of a commercial air pruning pot.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWMHMg--wiE

Yes indeed, that is how they work!

Mine are just hole drilled.
If they do not air prune then they at least let in more oxygen. Either way a cheap method and a benefit to the plant.

I agree, and have ranked 5-gal buckets with holes as the third best option I have used prior to this test. I have little-to-no indication that the holes actually did provide air pruning, but as you said the increased oxygen to the root system has shown no harmful effects while being cost-effective at that size. It is worth noting, however, that 2-gal buckets are roughly equivalent in price to some of the commercially-marketed air pruning containers discussed in the post.

Thanks again for your comments!

Kai Walker wrote:Here is a youtube explanation of a commercial air pruning pot.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWMHMg--wiE

Yes indeed, that is how they work!