Permaculture as a Gringo Movement

Queenie Hankinson wrote:Well. Some time ago I took a PDC. ...

Thank you for that post.

John Wolfram wrote:Based on that article and others he's written, the author seems to have the opinion that we should celebrate poverty and all be poor. I doubt that would be sustainable. Will Harris said it better than I can in the 28th Permaculture Voices Podcast:

Being poor is not okay, it’s not sustainable. If you’re will willing to live on $5,000 expendable income a year for the right and privilege to have good land and good animals, that’s fine, but it’s not sustainable. Your significant other is not going to want to that, and if they do, your children are not going to want to do that. And, when the day comes that you break your arm or leg, you’re not going to be able to do that.

Yes, this author Tobias Roberts is apparently in a phase of life where he is questioning all those things that idealistic teens/twenty-somethings like to question whilst embracing socialism and poverty as badges of honor. For him, in this moment, never mind that socialism is the biggest generator of poverty the world has ever known. See today's Venezuela (and countless other historical examples) if you have a problem with that statement. So, of course, in order for Tobias to maintain his proud identity, he must pretty much defile anything and everything that conflicts with his worldview. So be it. Eventually he'll grow out of it. Also I am hopeful that he does little or no permanent damage to himself or others while in this phase.

As for his criticisms, they have all been dealt with by others here. Bottom line - there are tons of PCult articles, audios and videos available for free online. The essence of PCult is understandable by anyone. Here in rural Ecuador, I have a friend who has been here about 11 years; he loves his PCult and works it hard. He's got a couple of local farmers who work for him, and he has tirelessly taught them a broad spectrum of PCult methods. For about the first about 6 years he tried and tried to finally break their brains open enough to let in this new info. Now that they have all been on the same page for the past 5 years, the locals are finally 'getting it' and enthusiastically appreciate the better results across the board. Now they are reaping the benefits of less daily work required for sustainably similar outputs, while their soils are regenerating all the while. They all laugh when his newly-enlightened local farmers tell their stories of how hard it is for them to get their other relatives and friends to change their ways. More money, better soil, and healthier animals for less work... all speak very loudly, so they are hopeful.

Humans are stubborn, bone-headed traditionalists in so many ways. It's the nature of the bulk of humans. See Spiral Dynamics http://www.spiral-dynamics.com/pdf_resources/SD_MiniCourse_H.pdf
Thinking requires serious effort; thinking differently and creatively even moreso. Apparently not many are really capable of much of it.

As far as the tiresome slurs of racism, inequality, class issues, fairness and all the rest, there's really no point. Simply more issues to grow up and get past. Everyone on this planet, indeed everything in this universe is unique and different... very unequal... of radically differing creative talents, physical abilities and intellectual capacity. It's all just so unfair! So yeah, get over it. Rather than embrace poverty as a badge of honor, it is Far Far better to seek out those with extraordinary abilities and creativity, and support and nurture them to the hilt. They are the ones who make the biggest improvements in this world, improvements that can benefit everyone.

Robert-
I agree about developing new ideas. However, Venezuela is a communist dictatorship. Democratic Socialist countries like those in Europe aren't anything like communist dictatorships. The wealthiest countries on earth are democratic socialist countries. They have better opportunities for social mobility than we do here.
John S
PDX OR

John Saltveit wrote:Robert-
I agree about developing new ideas. However, Venezuela is a communist dictatorship. Democratic Socialist countries like those in Europe aren't anything like communist dictatorships. The wealthiest countries on earth are democratic socialist countries. They have better opportunities for social mobility than we do here.
John S
PDX OR

Hola John,
Yes, but the foundation is essentially the same - Everyone feeling entitled to live off of everyone else... whether this attitude is imposed or whether it is voted in. The democratic socialist countries of Europe will not last long. Indiscriminate immigration will accelerate their downfall. One cannot continually undermine basic ethical premises of adulthood/maturity and expect sustainability. The non aggression principle is the only moral and ethical system that works for individual interaction with others. Each individual must fully mature, then voluntarily interact with others are he/she deems best, if a progressively sustainable society is to result. When gov't fosters an attitude of dependency upon their citizens, then maturity is sidetracked, arrested development is rife, internal rot begins.

You own yourself; you govern yourself; you are responsible for yourself. If those fundamentals are missing, bent or abused, people remain im-mature.

I can never quite understand why people feel that the ethics and morals that they espouse for themselves (Golden Rule, self-reliance, self-determinism, self-governance, 10 commandments, etc), suddenly does not apply so much (or at all) when setting up structures of government. It's absurd... but everyone buys into it. If anything, Permies fit the description of mature, self-reliant folks who voluntarily interact with others.

Tyler Ludens wrote:

Queenie Hankinson wrote:
Permaculture isbut one type of sustainable system. There are others. For more low tech methodologies, I am more inclined to talk about Martin Crawford and no maintenance food forests.

How are those not part of permaculture? Permaculture is a method of design, not a method of production.

Thank you for your question.

Permaculture is not simply a method of design, it is an adjunct environmental science that incorporates several methods of organization and design based on a managed and manipulated ecosystem model.

KEY to Permaculture is incorporating human needs and activity into a sustainable (and manipulated) existing natural ecosystem.


Again, THE KEY aspect IS NOT DESIGN it is integrating humans into a viable biological symbiosis with an ecosystem.

THIS salient point can make the difference between a semingly great looking design that fails within the first 5 to 10 years ( or further disrupts a natural system) , and a design so productive that nature adopts the design and perpetuates it for decades if not centuries.


Martin acts more allopathicaly ON a system not WITH it and seeks diversity and abundance, but not necessarily long term, perpetual sustainability.


Martin insists because he does not consider the symbiotic components of any ecosystem and does not employ design ideas such as zoning, the edge effect , swales, etc that his model is not Permaculture.

Martin's designs do not consider the integrative approach of animals, intensive planning and initial management organized plantings and more loosely resembles wild crafting.

Perrenial foods are planted and allowed to intermix and go wild with no thought given to succession and other PDC principles or actually designing an area

. Instead, plant placement is key with the focus on companion planting and little to no manipulation of water sources, earth movement.. Animal husbandry, or human time management.

Crawford's work is more about living off the land and other than plant introduction, allowing each plant to find its way, no weeding, water directing or other techniques are employed save the initial planting ....and harvesting is never done wholesale but rather, go outside, pick a few plants. Leave the rest or turn under as time goes on.



Have you read any of Crawford's work or watched his interviews?

Sepp Holzer also insists that some of his works have moved beyond Orthodox Permaculture and are in fact, something different.

When I design for persons with limited income, mobility and physical strength, I do not recommend Permaculture but instead, based on their climate and abilities; we focus on the growth of food and medicinal plants with no regard to zoning, succession or the liminal aspect of planting. The GOAL is not an ecosystem but low maintenance harvesting and gardening.

Because the focus is on perpetual abundance with no need for chop and drop..no water or earth works,no consideration to new placements of buildings, etc. This method is not seeking ecological equilibrium like Permaculture.

You may wish to consider this simply modified PCD, but with so many elements not considered, it is more the exploitation of a few elements shared with PCD but in the end, the sum is a very pared down and arguable departure from Permaculture..

The goal is food abundance and accessibility, not perpetuity or earth balance.

Hi Robert,
I disagree. I think that democratic socialism will be alive and well for a long time, in Europe and elsewhere. I think the capitalism like we have in the United States is unsustainable. WE are the #1 destroyers of the environment over the last 50 years by far. The average worker doesn't stand a chance against Citizens United and corporate control. Corporations control the government, make us pay for corporate ag, with sugar, wheat, soy and corn subsidies. I think a government that acts like the people matter more than the corporations is the only way the US can survive. Big ag has given us diabetes, cancer, obesity rates more than anywhere else in the world. What is the corporate solution? Chemotherapy, Big Pharma, and radiation. Corporate ag, food and medicine are what you get when you let whoever has the most power control the government and the culture. That's what we have. They don't let you put carcinogens in their food in Europe and Japan. Here? Fine! You;re helping businesses!
John S
PDX OR

Queenie Hankinson wrote:
Permaculture is not simply a method of design, it is an adjunct science that incorporates several methods of organization and design based on a managed and manipulated ecosystem model.

I accept Mollison's definition of permaculture. I consider myself a Mollisonian permaculturist.

"Permaculture is the conscious design and maintenance of agriculturally productive ecosystems which have the diversity, stability, and resilience of natural ecosystems. It is the harmonious integration of landscape and people providing their food, energy, shelter, and other material and non-material needs in a sustainable way." - Bill Mollison

Tyler Ludens wrote:

Queenie Hankinson wrote:
Permaculture is not simply a method of design, it is an adjunct science that incorporates several methods of organization and design based on a managed and manipulated ecosystem model.

I accept Mollison's definition of permaculture. I consider myself a Mollisonian permaculturist.

"Permaculture is the conscious design and maintenance of agriculturally productive ecosystems which have the diversity, stability, and resilience of natural ecosystems. It is the harmonious integration of landscape and people providing their food, energy, shelter, and other material and non-material needs in a sustainable way." - Bill Mollison

Interesting. That is pretty much what I was saying.. Integrative into an ecosystem. With ALL that such an integration implies.

I was trained and certified by Geoff Lawton and came to permaculture already with a university background in ecology and environmental science.

Although most of what I initially learned about Permaculture did follow Mollison, Geoff has updated the information, his experiences and the empirical evidence from various projects.

since Geoff is Mollison's heir apparent, I am comfortable not only with my expanded interpretation but the easy way it all ties together with my previous college education.

, I have been able to incorporate the ideas back into a scientific model and not just a didactic model or the discipline of design. it really is (IMO) much deeper than designing and I am certain Geoff would agree.

Geoff begins his series tying Permaculture to ecology and aspects of environmental science, after that premise is established, he continues into ,"design".

Queenie Hankinson wrote:
Interesting. That is pretty much what I was saying

I'm glad we agree.

Tyler Ludens wrote:

Queenie Hankinson wrote:
Interesting. That is pretty much what I was saying

I'm glad we agree.

What do you think of Martin Crawford's approach?

I think he makes a forest garden!

John Saltveit wrote:Hi Robert,
I disagree. I think that democratic socialism will be alive and well for a long time, in Europe and elsewhere. I think the capitalism like we have in the United States is unsustainable. WE are the #1 destroyers of the environment over the last 50 years by far. The average worker doesn't stand a chance against Citizens United and corporate control. Corporations control the government, make us pay for corporate ag, with sugar, wheat, soy and corn subsidies. I think a government that acts like the people matter more than the corporations is the only way the US can survive. Big ag has given us diabetes, cancer, obesity rates more than anywhere else in the world. What is the corporate solution? Chemotherapy, Big Pharma, and radiation. Corporate ag, food and medicine are what you get when you let whoever has the most power control the government and the culture. That's what we have. They don't let you put carcinogens in their food in Europe and Japan. Here? Fine! You;re helping businesses!
John S
PDX OR

Hey John,
You'll get no resistance from me re: crony capitalism in the USA! The basic voluntary free market system (mostly, anyway) that used to dominate in the USA has been so totally warped, twisted and crony-ized that it serves hardly anyone. And like you say, the gov't reinforces it all at the point of a gun from its henchmen. So yeah, it's horrendous.

My point is that digressing into a system that is even more involuntary, centralized and nannyish, though purportedly 'democratic,' is not going to go anywhere either. It too will eventually degenerate into the same pathetic state as the more overt socialistic states, though everyone gets to feel to be part of the democratized game as it devolves.

I suppose the bottom line is that human social systems will have to get back to a radically decentralized structure - essentially small tribal in nature - before true inclusiveness and sensible, coherent and joyful voluntarism can rule the day. The current Era of Nations and States will fade away, to be replaced by millions of autonomous enclaves, each created around its own ideals and visions, all voluntarily trading with others of their choice. A truly free market is the greatest generator of health, wealth and abundance... but only if the monetary system (bloodstream of the tribal society) is rock-solid integrous, and psychopathic politicians and corporate bastages can be moved out of the way permanently (which would happen pretty much automatically in small tribal enclaves, because everyone knows each other).

Mayhaps we should have a split into the Cider Press?

Yes, I agree Robert.
Local is better.
John S
PDX OR

Sorry folks the mods have realised that this thread has become far too political to be outside the cider press . So if you want to continue then you had better start a new thread there
I have even set a thread up for you guys https://permies.com/t/55909/Politics/Permaculture-Gringo-movement-continued#467062

David