gift
Companion Planting Guide by World Permaculture Association
will be released to subscribers in: soon!
  • Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
permaculture forums growies critters building homesteading energy monies kitchen purity ungarbage community wilderness fiber arts art permaculture artisans regional education skip experiences global resources cider press projects digital market permies.com pie forums private forums all forums
this forum made possible by our volunteer staff, including ...
master stewards:
  • Carla Burke
  • John F Dean
  • Nancy Reading
  • r ranson
  • Anne Miller
  • Jay Angler
stewards:
  • Pearl Sutton
  • paul wheaton
  • Leigh Tate
master gardeners:
  • Timothy Norton
  • Christopher Weeks
gardeners:
  • Tina Wolf
  • Matt McSpadden
  • Jeremy VanGelder

Pondside trees...what about a walnut?

 
pollinator
Posts: 1384
Location: NW California, 1500-1800ft,
418
2
hugelkultur dog forest garden solar wood heat homestead
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Does anybody know of effects of allelopathic trees like walnuts on nearby ponds? I have a beautiful but over mature walnut just northwest of my property's low point... what seems to be the ideal place for a small pond (30x45ft approximately). The fact the walnut makes growing things in this spot more difficult seems to further indicate a pond might be the best use of the space if jugalones aren't problems for pond life. The canopy/drip line/root mass of the walnut would be the nw edge of the pond, though as I write this i realize the roots may ruin any seal. So I guess my questions are about:

How far from a pond should established trees be?

Do walnuts or other allelopathic trees have a distinct effects on nearby ponds or streams besides the general benefits of trees near water?

Thanks!
 
author
Posts: 19
Location: Ontario, Canada
1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
The drip line is going to be 2-3 times the distance from the edge of the branches to the trunk - much farther than people think.

Most plants are not affected by the juglone. I am not sure about aquatic animals - will check.

Are you planning to line the pond?
 
Ben Zumeta
pollinator
Posts: 1384
Location: NW California, 1500-1800ft,
418
2
hugelkultur dog forest garden solar wood heat homestead
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Thanks for the response. In terms of a seal, I was planning on allowing my ducks to gley it. I have found a heavy clay layer 1-3ft beneath the surface in the area when digging before. I have not dug deeper than 5ft or found the bottom of the clay. I would ideally like to keep a small number fish in this low point pond, with two higher smaller ponds connected to a swale-french drain system, where I keep muscovies. I only have a 1/2 acre but it feels bigger and live in an area with prolific rainfall (100" this year already) that happens almost entirely during the winter (less than 1"/month in the summer). I also could use to create some hot spots for subtropical plants, as this is an extremely temperate climate (30-90f are the low-high most years) that makes getting brix up on any fruit the main challenge.

Would you predict digging and cutting 5ft outside the dripline around 1/4 of the circumference would be greatly harmful to the tree?
 
Robert Pavlis
author
Posts: 19
Location: Ontario, Canada
1
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
That will do quite a bit of root damage, but the tree should be able to handle it. You might want to do it in fall when the tree will get enough rain to grow new roots.
 
Ben Zumeta
pollinator
Posts: 1384
Location: NW California, 1500-1800ft,
418
2
hugelkultur dog forest garden solar wood heat homestead
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Thanks, I will take your advice and put it off til the fall. Will ten muscovies do much to seal a small pond? I imagine they have less capacity to seal deeper ponds than pigs.
 
Robert Pavlis
author
Posts: 19
Location: Ontario, Canada
1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
sorry - I know nothing about sealing a pond with animals.
 
steward & bricolagier
Posts: 13674
Location: SW Missouri
9062
2
goat cat fungi books chicken earthworks food preservation cooking building homestead ungarbage
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Did anyone ever come up with an answer as to whether walnuts by a pond are not good for fish/animal life? I have a collection of volunteer walnuts within 20 feet upstream in the watershed, above my pond location. Hate to have to remove them.
 
Ben Zumeta
pollinator
Posts: 1384
Location: NW California, 1500-1800ft,
418
2
hugelkultur dog forest garden solar wood heat homestead
  • Likes 3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
So I just decided to answer my own question and googled "do walnuts harm aquatic life?" and this was one of the top links: http://www.funkykoi.com/list-of-plants-toxic-to-pond-fish.

Black walnut hulls are listed, but so are oaks (acorns and foliage), the prunus genus, pines, and many more common plants to north america. I know cedar and redwood tannins (walnuts are also using a tannic acid for protection) are deterrents to some aquatic life (like aggressive invasive algae and associates). This is along with having profound physical effects on a watershed (shading, water retention and condensation, humus building). So in this way even though you could accurately state that such tannic conifers are harmful to warm-water fish, they are at the same time integral to healthy salmonid (trout and salmon) populations. Therefore I would wonder, what fish live in the native habitat of our walnuts' ancestors? I bet they would be more than fine next to the tree.
 
Pearl Sutton
steward & bricolagier
Posts: 13674
Location: SW Missouri
9062
2
goat cat fungi books chicken earthworks food preservation cooking building homestead ungarbage
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Thank you :) I like your opinion better than that link's theory. That's basically a list of every plant on my property. And every plant within 100 miles of here, 90% of which grow by the creeks, rivers, ponds and lakes around here. I think they are growing some mighty fussy show Koi or something. I'm going for natives, who should be much tougher than that. I'll see how my walnut trees and fish do together. Thank you, I'll cross that one off my list. I hadn't actually considered it till I read your post. Volunteer walnuts are thick around here!
 
pollinator
Posts: 432
Location: Poland, zone 6, CfB
161
12
forest garden fish trees books writing homestead
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Pearl Sutton wrote: I'll see how my walnut trees and fish do together.  



Did you come to any conclusions? I'm looking for the same answer :)
 
Pearl Sutton
steward & bricolagier
Posts: 13674
Location: SW Missouri
9062
2
goat cat fungi books chicken earthworks food preservation cooking building homestead ungarbage
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Richard Gorny wrote:

Pearl Sutton wrote: I'll see how my walnut trees and fish do together.  



Did you come to any conclusions? I'm looking for the same answer :)



No, I have not yet... things have been weird here.
I'd love if anyone else knows, thanks for bumping this thread, maybe someone will have an answer for us :D
 
pollinator
Posts: 213
Location: Washington State near lake tapps
41
3
hugelkultur kids forest garden fungi bike pig
  • Likes 3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I have a pond next to a walnut and catalpa tree. It never killed the fish but it is just a mess and the water is brown like tea. Plus you have to clean it out of the leaves and walnuts and husks, Catalpa pods it's lots of work. The muck at the bottom goes anerobic, smells horrible. We are filling it in and putting a pond farther from the walnuts. We also have had problems with stock tanks too close to the walnuts.
Love the trees but keep water away is what we have found best.

Thanks
Brian
3HR
 
Posts: 27
5
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I know this is an old thread but I am just seeing it now, as I research whether I should move a tiny European walnut sapling further from our large wild pond ( in northern France, part of my new food forest). This led me to find MANY reports of black walnuts poisoning ponds, killing fish, etc. So my suggestion is keep the two separate. European (English/Persian) walnuts have far less ‘juglone’, the toxic product of walnuts, so I might be OK. But why take the chance when I can move it with an hour’s labour?
Good luck to all.
 
Posts: 81
Location: Shenandoah Valley (Virginia) Zone 6b
39
homeschooling forest garden fungi foraging writing homestead
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

brian hanford wrote:We are filling it in and putting a pond farther from the walnuts. We also have had problems with stock tanks too close to the walnuts.



Did you ever move the pond? How far away? From the trunk? And the drip line? Did it work? I have a great spot for a pond where water gathers already, but it’s downhill from the neighbor’s walnut.
 
pollinator
Posts: 5159
Location: Bendigo , Australia
428
plumbing earthworks bee building homestead greening the desert
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Allelopathy is a biological phenomenon where one plant inhibits the growth of another.
How?
Through the release of allelochemicals, certain plants can greatly affect the growth of other plants either in a good or bad way by leaching, decomposition, etc.
In essence, plant allelopathy is used as a means of survival in nature, reducing competition from plants nearby.
 
Destiny's powerful hand has made the bed of my future. And this tiny ad:
Green University by Thomas Elpel
https://permies.com/t/243115/Green-University-Thomas-Elpel
reply
    Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic