Forum:

permaculture

Dirt Farmer's Paradise

Posts: 0

posted 9 years ago

Since I left the 'real world' and started permaculture ive cobbled together a 16 acre project , including a 600sf cabin and a small food forest, on about 8-10k annually-including my living expenses for travel, etc. Ive learned alot (and have much more to learn) about thrift in systems design. My garden feeds me 4 months a year, and supplements me year round.

I'm interested in low cost ($100 or less) system startups which have either paid for themselves or radically and positively affected your quality of life. Many of these may be links to existing threadies here on the site, or your own ramblings. Post away with links, and ramblings, please.

Ill post my good finds as we go, but for now want to leave the room for folks to reply undirected.

What small investments did you make in systems design that really paid off? What qualifiers might make your solutions site, regionally or or politically (nation/state) specific? What mistakes did you make that cost you $ or time, and what do you suggest to get around them for others?

thanks in advance.

Joel Hollingsworth

pollinator

Posts: 2103

Location: Oakland, CA

posted 9 years ago

The one change in my life that has done the most for me, was taking lessons in folk dance. It brought a lot of balance to my life, in several ways; social, fitness, cognitive, etc. I think the most important thing it did for me cognitively, was to bring my attention to the world (as opposed to my thoughts) for extended periods of time, but a close second would be the countless opportunities it has offered to take initiative, and act at the appropriate time.

Learning to exploit existing concrete was tremendously helpful: the warm microclimate above ground, and its tremendous power to stop weed growth and retain moisture in the soil underneath it, have made for some very easy gardening.

I'm learning to bake bread. It's some of the best bread I've tasted, low-effort, and it seems to be good for my budget and health; I'm following the general plan of Chad Robertson, but with a cold start

. It occurs to me that, with a cold start, the retained heat of a heavy Dutch oven isn't very important, and a cheap enamelware container would work just as well. I use more whole wheat than the recipe I offered, but it occurs to me that this method could really showcase a small amount of home-grown flour, and because it achieves professional results using home equipment, it might be suitable for CSA or similar business models.

"the qualities of these bacteria, like the heat of the sun, electricity, or the qualities of metals, are part of the storehouse of knowledge of all men. They are manifestations of the laws of nature, free to all men and reserved exclusively to none." SCOTUS, Funk Bros. Seed Co. v. Kale Inoculant Co.

Abe Connally

Posts: 1502

Location: Chihuahua Desert

posted 9 years ago

For our place, animals have been the best payoff. Not only do they give us tons of products, but they are great companions and never-ending entertainment.

Rabbits can really pay for themselves in a short time. Pigs are also good. I like milk goats, but they may be a bit much for a beginner. Chickens are good, and most folks recommend them for beginners, but they can have their own issues.

Bees have been my number one investment. I just love them, and their ROI is really good in most areas.

Books are another really good investment. Our personal library has been an astounding resource on many, many occasions. It's great to have the knowledge of others right at your fingertips. So, the internet is another worthwhile cost.

I could go on and on about decent investments... tools, decent storage containers (food), rain catchment, etc.

Buy Our Book! Food Web: Concept - Raising Food the Right Way. Learn make more food with less inputs
Off Grid Homesteading - latest updates and projects from our off grid homestead

Posts: 0

posted 9 years ago

velacreations, please do- anything you did for under $100 which produced is most amazing. what made the investments you speak of below work, as opposed to others that may not have been successful- was specific research or time investment required more for some than others?

Joel, I hear you about the dance. I studied Aikido for years and that really changed things. Not quite under $100, but under $70 a month. however, it probably saved my life more than once- not cause I know how to do some martial art, but because it taught me how to move with -and away- from things- like 1000# hogs and trucks sliding on muddy slopes- that could crush me.

IM curious about this cause I am really scratching my head about how to break out of some ruts im in. I had wild honey bees for 3 years- free- and then the hive split while I was gone two years ago and now I realize I got lucky. so I'm headed towards a top bar hive. If I stay where im at... but right now Im really looking and spying on affordable success- some folks can pump $$$ at design and make lovely things- but some cant. what can be done for the joe schmoe and jane doe with no dough?we can have elgance and produce as well. I wanna know. I could preach a poverty permaculture class, but Im tired of it. My head is too full. share more of yours please? what made the difference with the ones that worked vs. those that may not have ( and im sure ill have to tell about the $25 christmas hog from '94 before this is over...cheap holiday dinner, but SOOOO humilating.... )

tel jetson

steward

Posts: 3518

Location: woodland, washington

126

posted 9 years ago

spend a couple bucks to get that Pelton wheel you're sitting on up and running.

and let's build a couple of Warré hives instead of top bars.

I know I've got some $100 successes, but they're escaping me at the moment.

find religion! church
kiva! hyvä! iloinen! pikkumaatila
get stung! beehives
be hospitable! host-a-hive
be antisocial! facespace

Posts: 0

posted 9 years ago

tel, youre my favorite farm star.

need a couple hundred feet of 1" hdpe tubing and to cut a cistern into the creek. next year, if I dont up and leave this wet sock im buried in, It will happen... IM srsly thinking about a move, but who knows. Ive got a few months of travel ahead of me to sort it out, and im emptying my brains of notions and plans so I can feel whats right. you and yer sweetie might have a retreat space on your hands.

Abe Connally

Posts: 1502

Location: Chihuahua Desert

posted 9 years ago

rabbits, bees, fish, pigs, chickens - all under $100. They all work well if you let the animals be animals, guide them, not control them. Work with their particular tendencies. Every time I try to control something, it ends up costing me more than it should.

Rabbits and bees are super low maintenance, if you do it right (I do colony rabbits). Pigs can be, too, especially on pasture. But, with fencing, you'll end up above the $100 mark pretty quick.

Warre hives AND top bars! Actually, also check out the Oscar Perone hive, it is my favorite.

I don't think there are rules that apply to ever venture, BUT, if you observe, adjust, consider, observe, adjust, consider, you tend to improve, but do it slowly. Small steps.

Buy Our Book! Food Web: Concept - Raising Food the Right Way. Learn make more food with less inputs
Off Grid Homesteading - latest updates and projects from our off grid homestead

tel jetson

steward

Posts: 3518

Location: woodland, washington

126

posted 9 years ago

turn your shit and garbage into food for critters with soldier fly larvae. you've got the materials to do it for free. larvae shouldn't be hard to find in somebody's compost pile. not going to save or make you a whole lot of money, but it's a nice, easy project.

buy a second-hand folding table and a booth at the Vancouver Farmers Market. or maybe Oly's market would be better. use Summer's certified kitchen to process a whole lot more of all those crazy fireweed pickles you made this year. those crusty folks would love them. I'll drive.

find religion! church
kiva! hyvä! iloinen! pikkumaatila
get stung! beehives
be hospitable! host-a-hive
be antisocial! facespace

Joel Hollingsworth

pollinator

Posts: 2103

Location: Oakland, CA

posted 9 years ago

If you're being really frugal, and trying to capture swarms, you might make a few skeps, and leave them in likely places. If you catch a swarm in one, it can be trapped out into an easier-to-maintain hive when you can afford one.

tel jetson

steward

Posts: 3518

Location: woodland, washington

126

posted 9 years ago

do folks sell whole established colonies? that could be pretty serious. leave enough bait hives around and don't give the colonies too much extra space. don't harvest honey. I'll bet in a couple years a person could have enough to sell quite a few colonies annually. shouldn't be hard to manage so each hive swarms once each year.

you've got a lot of wild space and flowers around you up there, but it sure wouldn't hurt to plant more. put all that clay to use in bee-centric seedballs.

find religion! church
kiva! hyvä! iloinen! pikkumaatila
get stung! beehives
be hospitable! host-a-hive
be antisocial! facespace

Pat Black

Posts: 123

Location: Northern New Mexico, USA

posted 9 years ago

For me, creating low-cost cold frames for winter veggie harvest is one. I was gifted some old sliding glass doors which became the glazing. I had to buy the lumber for the sides. Way under $100 and gave me an extra 3 months of greens to eat.

Another is gutters for water catch. I was gifted some 55 gallon barrels and had a house with no gutters. Just a couple of sections of gutter was enough to fill the barrels. That gave me water for irrigating food crops.

Susanna de Villareal-Quintela

Posts: 143

posted 9 years ago

It took more than a $100 initial investment but, I've invested in good fencing and an intensive grazing system that has reduced my need to purchase winter forages considerably! I am, currently, down to needing 200 bales of hay per year for my 3 horses. Next year, I'm trading my friend and hayman a little space for his daughters goats in excange for him haying my excess pastures (which I would otherwise need to mow to keep production up). So, I may be able to completely remove my need to purchase off-farm hay. I sure hope so.

I'm playing with building non-grid heaters for my water troughs. I don't know how well it will work (this is the first winter I'm trying) but when I get it perfected it will save me lots of electricity and work with winter watering. I am using only items I have on had for this experiment.

I am using an earth covered compost pile design, set in a "u" shape around my troughs. I have a larger water trough (filled with straw and a support frame) and a smaller water trough set inside. I will have 4" pipes set into the compost pile and connected to the larger trough to help bring warm air around the inner trough. With any luck (or design) I will at least mitigate the amout of electricity I need to keep the horses water at a good palatable temperature. In the spring I will have to remove the pile and blend that anarobic product into an aerobically managed pile but theextra effort would be worth a reduction at the electrical meter.

Ed Waters

Posts: 122

posted 9 years ago

Not sure what you are trying to accomplish. Here is something that has worked very well for us. We grow micros, and sell them to restaurants, or you could sell them at your Vancouver Farmer's market. The initial investment would be a couple of flourescent lights (7 dollars at Lowe's) some seed and a couple of cafeteria trays. We grow them in a medium that is 50% vermiculite, and 50% compost. Depending on what we are growing we either toss what is left after cutting in to the chicken tractors or into a compost pile. The soil that comes out of the tractors is amazing, and heads out into the field. After a couple of weeks in the compost pile the soil goes into 5 gallon buckets where we plant all sorts of stuff like potatoes, carrots, and anything else that can fill the pathways in the greenhouse. We get around 14-15 dollars a pound for the micros.

Ed

Travis Philp

gardener

Posts: 965

Location: ZONE 5a Lindsay Ontario Canada

posted 9 years ago

This July we dumpstered a few flats of italian parsley, chives, and some thyme, lavender, and lots of empty pots, and pots with soil. The parsley, lavender, and chives will continue to give forever theoretically. We also got a bunch of scarecrows for free too. Talking to garden centers in mid to late june to find out if and when they throw out plants is a worthwhile endeavour.

Interns...we gave a $30 per week stipend but I've seen farms give no money, just room and board. Sure they can be a headache sometimes but overall they're invaluable if you're short on help.

http://www.greenshireecofarms.com
Zone 5a in Central Ontario, Canada

Posts: 0

posted 9 years ago

This is great stuff. I had a general notion when i started the thread about reliable productive systems most anyone can afford and set up. I have a few at my place that serve me, and our general tendency as permies is assemble complimentary systems to the one we have. The systems I want - and can afford- to add are getting a great deal of debate in my head.... and the way I will relate to the systems is also getting clearer.

Im leaving my property more and more to check out other sites, and potentially create a home somewhere else than where I own land- though Im not abandoning the land by any means. I have an intern who lives here for all intents and purposes, though he comes and goes some in reality.

One of the clarifying thoughts Im having is "what systems in the $100 or less category can thrive on bi weekly or seasonal maintenance' Yeah, I know its a 'new' qualifier. Wasnt totally clear to me what I was looking for when I dropped the subject.

Ed, thanks for the prompt.

Im going to take these idears and flesh them out in context of wheat Ive already got. others may show up- thats always good- and in a few months I might have a draft notion of which way to wisely invest my meagre resources such as the finest providence arises. cheers!

tel jetson

steward

Posts: 3518

Location: woodland, washington

126

posted 9 years ago

sell seed balls. honey bee or native pollinator-specific seed balls could be good, or balls built for specific light and water and dirt conditions. or anything else you can imagine. draw yourself a nice logo and get some paper bags and you're set.

I don't know if my ideas qualify as "systems", but I think you've got a lot of options up there.

find religion! church
kiva! hyvä! iloinen! pikkumaatila
get stung! beehives
be hospitable! host-a-hive
be antisocial! facespace

Posts: 0

posted 9 years ago

restoration seedballs on thing Ive thought about. I have enough elevation change and hydrology shift across the property - and enough freaky survivalists (like the immense nettle that grows on the bald hilltop in full sun and is 8" tall with nothing but a half assed hugel of logs under it...or the devils clubs that is in monkey maddening thickets under alder and maple)- yes, Ive thought about restoration seedballs...

I saved a pretty pound of nettle seed last year, somehow still have my mitts on it. you need some, mr. tel.

next year I want enough to use the seed for food

Paul Cereghino

gardener

Posts: 856

Location: South Puget Sound, Salish Sea, Cascadia, North America

posted 9 years ago

A beautiful scythe blade for $60 and make the rest (though I bought my kit)... makes creating mulch from vegetation easy. Now everything looks like carbon to be moved around - grow grow grow green world. Combined with cuttings and seeds which can be had for free gets you to a forest garden.

Paul Cereghino- Stewardship Institute
Maritime Temperate Coniferous Rainforest - Mild Wet Winter, Dry Summer

Posts: 0

posted 9 years ago

This is great stuff. Ive read up on the Warre (and Perone) hives some and thats project #1 for the new year- make Warre Hives.

in this great day and age of internet optimism and social ascendency (I cent tell up from down myself) we have virtuous souls willing to share this kind of knowledge freely. Thank you to the folks at BioBees!

warre.biobees.com/warre_hive_plans_imperial.pdf

Shawn Bell

Posts: 156

posted 9 years ago

Here is the Kenyan Top Bar Hive that my son and I are planning to build in next couple of weeks.

http://outdoorplace.org/beekeeping/kenya.htm

There are videos on youtube on this type of hive as well.

<iframe title="YouTube video player" class="youtube-player" type="text/html" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/arGb7pc42p0"; frameborder="0"></iframe>

<iframe title="YouTube video player" class="youtube-player" type="text/html" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/ZSeimT00pRU"; frameborder="0"></iframe>

Cheap & Easy

Posts: 75

Location: Ontario, Canada (44.265475, -77.960029)

posted 9 years ago

Deston Lee wrote:
This is great stuff. Ive read up on the Warre (and Perone) hives some and thats project #1 for the new year- make Warre Hives.

in this great day and age of internet optimism and social ascendency (I cent tell up from down myself) we have virtuous souls willing to share this kind of knowledge freely. Thank you to the folks at BioBees!

warre.biobees.com/warre_hive_plans_imperial.pdf

Wow, those plans seem very complicated compared to

I've looked at both and I don't see the advantages of vertical over horizontal but that's probably because I often see only after being shown. I do see one big disadvantage: adding new boxes at the bottom means that you have to lift the entire hive. How do you do that so that it's easy on your back?

Anyone who believes exponential growth can go on forever in a finite world is either a madman or an economist.

tel jetson

steward

Posts: 3518

Location: woodland, washington

126

posted 9 years ago

MikeH wrote:
I do see one big disadvantage: adding new boxes at the bottom means that you have to lift the entire hive. How do you do that so that it's easy on your back?

build a sort of hand powered jack. plans are probably posted someplace on the biobees.com, though I haven't checked exactly where.

and I think the advantage of vertical is that it more closely approximates a hollow in a snag. honey bees like to build downward if they've got the space to.

find religion! church
kiva! hyvä! iloinen! pikkumaatila
get stung! beehives
be hospitable! host-a-hive
be antisocial! facespace

Posts: 0

posted 9 years ago

it is the natural tendency of the bee to build hives down. this hive is about as natural to bees habits as i can figure, but im no beephile.

Having come through a back injury i also have that lifting concern. while Im much better now than I had feared I would be, and am making great progress, I suspect Ill always be more conscious of this back thing- and to that end, having not built the hives or read on the issue you address, I share the concern.

that said, I like the notion that the hive does not need to be opened to add space for the bees to expand into.

http://warre.biobees.com/:

"A very important feature of Warré's method is that the hive is opened in the strict sense only once a year, namely at harvest. In spring the addition of boxes underneath does not necessitate a hive opening in the sense that the heat is let out. The importance of the retention of nest scent and heat (Nestduftwärmebindung) for bee health and productivity was discussed by Johann Thür in his book Beekeeping: natural, simple and successful (1946) which also discusses Abbé Christ's (1739-1813) hive that is almost identical in concept to Warré's."

the question you pose is one Ill take to my local pro, who is using this system as well. thanks for the forethought!

and then my 'trump' - a personal thing- I love the statuesque quality- and aas a felllow who built too many cabinets in a production shop- high end though it was- I love doing sculptural woodworking and havent had time to in years. so this project, beyond meeting my desire for a $100 or less system and its apparent model-by-nature design- ts a lovely bit of woodworking that I cant wait to re-invest my passion for detailed cabinetry on. maybe Ill make it with no metal fasteners or glue.

ever turn a wooden screw?

ill get back to ya'll on the lifting/back issue. great stuff!

Posts: 75

Location: Ontario, Canada (44.265475, -77.960029)

posted 9 years ago

tel jetson wrote:
build a sort of hand powered jack. plans are probably posted someplace on the biobees.com, though I haven't checked exactly where.

That would be a Warré hive lift. I prefer cheap and simple not to mention something that's within my abilities.

and I think the advantage of vertical is that it more closely approximates a hollow in a snag. honey bees like to build downward if they've got the space to.

I've come across that reason but I'm not sure how significant it is.

Anyone who believes exponential growth can go on forever in a finite world is either a madman or an economist.

Posts: 0

posted 9 years ago

That lift device is about a half a days tinkering with some scrap lumber. or welding...on wheels, as in built onto a dolly frame, its looks like a go for me, at least in concept. january project, I think. inexpensive? yes. simple? no. I have much research to do.

Posts: 75

Location: Ontario, Canada (44.265475, -77.960029)

posted 9 years ago

Deston Lee wrote:
it is the natural tendency of the bee to build hives down. this hive is about as natural to bees habits as i can figure, but im no beephile.

Except that the Warré hive interrupts that process by introducing boxes, ie, new top bars so that the comb is manageable for the beekeeper. I'm not opposed to vertical top bar hives. I'm just not convinced yet that they're more natural than horizontal top bar hives.

that said, I like the notion that the hive does not need to be opened to add space for the bees to expand into.

You don't do that in a horizontal top bar hive either. When you run out of space, you build a new hive.

and then my 'trump' - a personal thing- I love the statuesque quality

Then you might like a dodecahedron hive.

Anyone who believes exponential growth can go on forever in a finite world is either a madman or an economist.

Posts: 0

posted 9 years ago

seems noted architect charles wren did octagon hives that are functionally similar to the warre/perone hives.

http://www.wondersandmarvels.com/2010/02/christopher-wren-and-bees.html

by the time im done with this research i might just do what i did with my first hive- go find it and wait until it swarms, and watch where it goes. i got much less honey doing that, im sure, but i only invested joyful hours watching them go in and out and ponder them for those 4 years and two locations... one of which was horizontal, btw.... but safe and dry.

Shawn Bell

Posts: 156

posted 9 years ago

Deston,

If you have had a horizontal hive can you tell me how that went? We want to build one for spring and would like to hear first hand accounts of people (who are not preaching the virtues of) who actually use or have used them.

Thanks.

Posts: 0

posted 9 years ago

no, havent had one. the horizontal hive I got into was a wild nest that was up in the floor of an old barn. They moved to a hollow tree and built a vertical hive next. lost them after that move.

I know people who had all thier bees die in both top bar hives. It was thier first time around, I couldnt say what happened. I understand the Freemans, out here near me, had top bars and now do warre. Im going to get in touch with them and ask the same question. ill post here.

tel jetson

steward

Posts: 3518

Location: woodland, washington

126

posted 9 years ago

last time I was at the Freemans' (this summer), they had a variety of Warré and horizontal top bar hives active and healthy. I think they would be in a pretty good position to speak to the relative merits of each in our region.

find religion! church
kiva! hyvä! iloinen! pikkumaatila
get stung! beehives
be hospitable! host-a-hive
be antisocial! facespace

Posts: 0

posted 9 years ago

this from jacqueline freeman:

I'm keen on them (warre hives) because they are low human interference for the bees which I believe is a good thing for the bees. They don't need us mucking about in their house every ten days like they do in langstroth hives (conventional). They preserve the hive's scent and warmth in a way the other hives don't. They seem best to mimic a hollowed out tree which is the bee's favorite hive.

The top bars are really easy to use and I like them for that. Easy to get in, easy to keep tabs on them. Problem with them I found was that they didn't keep heat in them as easily as a warre because they are lateral and the heat flow moves better in a warre. The bees can situate themselves where the heat rises to and in the winter they need to create less warmth.

The TBHs were created in central africa and they aren't as dependable for channeling dampness as are the warres, though they can be successful, too. I like that the warre's directly address this by creating a moisture collection area above the top box.

------

there you have it from our local beekeeping teacher and grass fed beef farmer.

Jordan Lowery

pollinator

Posts: 1528

Location: zone 7

posted 9 years ago

one of the things that is well under 100$ and is priceless for what it gives.
planting a decent bamboo, one for your area so it doesn't grow like mad or die.
bamboo has too many uses, the possibilities are endless.

another thing that cost well under 100$ is to buy good garden tools. high quality tools will due much better than there cheap counterparts. i find old steel garden heads at yard sales all the time, make your own handle from a branch and you have a tool that will last years and years.

one more for now, i find spending a little bit of money on a good propagation area and supplies is priceless once you get things rooting. you can make your money back in weeks by saving on plants you dont have to buy anymore. buy it once, multiply it by the thousands for supply cost( which is dirt cheap)

The ultimate goal of farming is not the growing of crops, but the cultivation and perfection of human beings. - Masanobu Fukuoka

Shawn Bell

Posts: 156

posted 9 years ago

Deston Lee wrote:
this from jacqueline freeman:

The top bars are really easy to use and I like them for that. they aren't as dependable for channeling dampness as are the warres, though they can be successful, too. I like that the warre's directly address this by creating a moisture collection area above the top box.

there you have it from our local beekeeping teacher and grass fed beef farmer.

Thank you for for this extra insight Deston! Now I have to do more research on the warre.

Stacey Khosravi

Posts: 6

posted 6 years ago

Mike H.,
Do you know where I can find plans for the dodecahedron hive? I've been searching online and can't find anything beyond photos.
Thanks a lot

Miles Flansburg

steward

Posts: 4628

Location: Zones 2-4 Wyoming and 4-5 Colorado

445

I like...

posted 6 years ago

Howdy Stacey, welcome to permies! You might also want to ask your question in the bees section here...

https://permies.com/forums/f-57/bees

how permies.com works
real sounding name policy

kirk dillon

Posts: 66

Location: Maple City Michigan

posted 6 years ago

This is "technology" related, but still good info. I pay $30.00 monthly for high speed internet through Charter. I bought a $200 internet telephone system from a company called "Ooma" that plugs into my internet router, (no computer needed). It is unlimited calling anywhere in the USA (I'm sure they have a Canadian plan). It's actually free except that you have to pay the government imposed taxes. I'm currently paying $5.00 monthly. It's not the fanciest and there are "occasional" hickups in performance (delays or echoes), but for unlimited calling and $5 per month, I can put up with minor inconveniences. I also found the cheapest "Pay-as-you-Go" cell phone service. It's with "Platinum Tel". I pay $10 every 2 months and get 200 minutes (anywhere in the USA). I changed my habits so that I use my cell for quick calls. If I need to have a long conversation I do it at home on Ooma. I don't know if their "other" plans are a good deal or not, but they have several others available. The minutes roll over if you don't use them, but you still need to buy at least another $10 every 2 months. For television I only have the "local" package with DISH, (ABC, NBC, PBS, FOX), they also throw in a lot of "extra" channels. I think I have about 20 total. I'm paying about $20 monthly including the DVR fees.
So to sum it up..... Internet service for $30 monthly, Unlimited Home phone use for $5 monthly, Cell phone service for $5 monthly and television for $20 monthly. That's $60 monthly for all of them together. This has saved me a ton of money over the last couple of years..........

You can die on the bleachers or you can die on the playing field, but you can't get out of life alive

So I left, I came home, and I ate some pie. And then I read this tiny ad:

5 Ways to Transform Your Garden into a Low Water Garden

https://permies.com/t/97045/Reduce-garden-watering