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Black locust pros and cons

 
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I researched the black locust trying to find out if the good outweighed the bad and here is what I found. I was womdering if people agreed or disagreed.
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Welcome to Permies! Your report looks pretty good to me. The only thing you've left out is the law. In some places it's illegal to grow black locust, and so you could get in trouble for doing that even if it's a good tree in other ways. It may be that the law should be changed, but it's good to know what it is before you plant the tree.

 
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Wow! Illegal to plant black locust? Hard to imagine such a valuable and useful tree being frowned upon... until you think about the bias toward industrial chemicals to make outdoor wood and not natural methods...
 
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The Michigan DNR has published some useful information on it:

http://mnfi.anr.msu.edu/invasive-species/BlackLocustBCP.pdf

Too bad it's all written from the perspective of eradication!
 
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I think that Black Locust is a great tree. It flowers in the spring, attracting honey bees. It is fast growing, you can establish hedgerows for fuelwood and harvest in as little as 10 years. It is one of the hottest burning firewoods out there.

Also, anywhere you have a presence of Ash trees, you should be considering what trees you want to plant to replace them. All North American Ash will be extinct in the near future. Ash is a sun-loving high quality hardwood. So is black locust.
 
Glenn Herbert
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Dutch Elm disease hasn't made the American Elm extinct, only quite rare. A couple of giant specimens still lived around here until a year ago, and I have seen others. The fact that slippery elms harbor it and still survive long enough to reproduce means that the elm bark beetle stays widespread. If the emerald ash borer doesn't live on other kinds of trees, individual ashes will get safer as the general population declines. There may be time to develop a resistant variety or find a predator for the bug.
 
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Main problem in the united states is the locust borer that can wreck the wood and kills trees.

Even after more than 4 decades of dutch elm disease, american and slippery elms are still the most common trees on my place and the same will be with the native ashes since they seed all over and so good at reproducing. They already have 3 different asian wasps they are releasing that attack emerald ash borer and native things adapting to that new food source, so all hope may not be lost.
 
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I would love it if you guys are right, I wouldn't count on it, though.

It is true, not a single variety of American Ash shows the slightest resistance to EAB. It could theoretically wipe out the entire population very quickly (it has already spread significantly faster than Elm or American Chestnut blight). Then, theoretically the EAB would die off, and we could start replanting harvested seeds, and theoretically all of the trade we do with asia will never send the EAB back over here...

I have a ton of 16"+ DBH white ash on my property. Fortunately, it is a diverse northern hardwood forest, so it will be... ok... once EAB shows up and kills them all in 1-3 years. But make no mistake, EAB is coming for them all. I've read about the asian wasp trials and all. Everything being done right now is all about slowing the spread, and hoping for a miracle. Most of the literature won't come right out and say it, you have to read between the lines, but they have no game plan for stopping extinction. Just hope. Some foresters and entomologists will come right out and say they are done for.

Really sad. It makes me sick. American Ash is in a league of its own. It grows extremely fast. Is just as good of a hardwood as slow growing oak and maple. It is a pioneer species, they show up in my fields every summer and fall.

Really, black locust is not as good a tree as Ash. But IMO nothing will fill the void of when our Ash are gone, other than cheap chinese junk that's filling up our dumps.

I also should add, Ash produce seed once they are 10+ year old. The seed lives for 1-2 years after it drops. In areas of michigan where the infestation killed all the mature ash, and the seedlings were allowed to live for 8-10 years, the borers came back and killed the sapling ash off before they could produce seed.
 
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Glenn Herbert wrote:Dutch Elm disease hasn't made the American Elm extinct, only quite rare. A couple of giant specimens still lived around here until a year ago, and I have seen others.



I read of one on the White House lawn that survived; supposedly this tree is over 200 years old. I don't know if the story is true.

We have elms here in Laurel, Montana. Some are quite old; others are seedlings. Nominally-dead stumps will grow sucker trees in abundance (have a bunch of those too). I can't swear to the variety but the oldest are probably over 75 years so certainly from before the plague.

I might have some seeds stashed somewhere from my elms in the SoCal desert, which was beyond the plague's reach.
 
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Rez Zircon wrote:

Glenn Herbert wrote:Dutch Elm disease hasn't made the American Elm extinct, only quite rare. A couple of giant specimens still lived around here until a year ago, and I have seen others.



I read of one on the White House lawn that survived; supposedly this tree is over 200 years old. I don't know if the story is true.

We have elms here in Laurel, Montana. Some are quite old; others are seedlings. Nominally-dead stumps will grow sucker trees in abundance (have a bunch of those too). I can't swear to the variety but the oldest are probably over 75 years so certainly from before the plague.

I might have some seeds stashed somewhere from my elms in the SoCal desert, which was beyond the plague's reach.



I'm in Ann Arbor, Michigan, and have many, many elms, some beautifully mature, others at 20 years. They are like weeds in areas around wetness. I don't know why we have survived the disease other than that we are the highest point in the county and all the populated areas are downwind
 
Rez Zircon
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Bobby Pleasant wrote:American Ash is in a league of its own. It grows extremely fast. Is just as good of a hardwood as slow growing oak and maple. It is a pioneer species, they show up in my fields every summer and fall.



I don't know what kind of ash we have around here, but they're like weeds, they throw abundant seeds and come up everywhere. Now I'm thinking it might be worthwhile to put some seeds in the deep freeze for long-term storage, maybe freeze them in a block of ice so they don't dehydrate (which is likely the reason they don't keep more than a couple years in dry storage, but the seeds are obviously winter-hardy so freezing 'em shouldn't be a problem).

From a newsletter I get:

http://www.ipm.iastate.edu/ipm/hortnews/2015/10-23/eab.htm
 
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I'm definately a fan of Black locust, hope to acquire some eventually, just scored a few Honey locust seeds that i hope to get growing this coming year:)
 
Glenn Herbert
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Ash and black locust each have their strong points, so you can't say that one is simply better than the other. Locust will sprout from roots or stumps, and a grove will coppice and grow just as well as ash. It makes fantastic firewood if that is what you want, though nothing splits as nicely as ash.
 
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Hey gang, I'm looking for a quote or two to use in an upcoming article about black locust. I'm specifically looking for thoughts from folks who have been working with black locust- trying for some short blurbs that highlight the multi functional nature of the tree or its value as a timber product in a outdoor landscape construction context.

Any help is appreciated!

If you could send your name and an organization that you represent along with your thoughts to:

matthewb@landscapeeast.com

or

oasispermacultureNY@gmail.com

I would sure appreciate it!

Thanks!
-Matt
 
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yeah i heard that is was illegal in some places but couldn't find evidence that anybody has every been arrested and charged for planting black locust.....99.9% of people have no clue what the difference is between a oak or an ash for example.....BUT if it is considered invasive in your area one should not succumb to selfish desires.
 
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Sean Banks wrote:yeah i heard that is was illegal in some places but couldn't find evidence that anybody has every been arrested and charged for planting black locust.....99.9% of people have no clue what the difference is between a oak or an ash for example.....BUT if it is considered invasive in your area one should not succumb to selfish desires.



Whose selfish desires?
 
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One of your original statements is wrong "is BL harmful to animals."

It is NOT toxic to every livestock that eats it. Cows, Sheep, Goats, Pigs all do fine with BL. Chickens can digest the seeds
 
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Maximo-
I don't have a lot of experience with black locust yet except I can say they're difficult to get established until they're protected from deer because they love it. For quotes and more info, go to Paul Wheaton's youtube channel and find the black locust video- lots of good stuff there.

Glenn-
Ash easy to split?! Maybe we're talking about different ashes...or maybe the ones I've split were just too knotty...maybe my timing wasn't right. Green ash (Fraxinus pennsylvanica) has not been easy to split for me. Juniperus virginiana splits very easily, but it's not great firewood (fun to burn in a rmh though! the popping and cracking echo inside the barrel). My new favorite tree is honey locust (Gleditsia triacanthos). Around the same time I realized that some seedlings were growing very well on my property, I was re-reading Tree Crops and PL Cool J (that's Permies Love Cool J. ...Russell Smith) gushes about how wonderful it is. Also, I've found it to be the easiest splittin' wood there is! It makes you look like a pro.

Sean-
Regarding "selfish desires," I say the ones who want a plant banned for the sake of saving their pretty lawn (or whatever weird reason they have) are the ones who are being selfish. MA probably had millions of Robinia prior to the last glacier; I bet they'll slowly make their way back regardless of what people want. Like Pat Foreman in Rhodes' "Permaculture Chickens" recommends, "Just do it anyway." Civil disobedience is what America is all about... at least sometimes.

Regarding EAB, I expect there will be at least a couple, out of the tens of millions (or more?), that will be resistant. If not, might it survive as a shrub from now on? I've been wondering if maybe, for example, wild American hazel weas once a great tree, but something came along and nearly killed them all ...they survived as coppiced little things until there was a mutation that allowed them to continue reproducing.

Of course, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.
 
Glenn Herbert
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Definitely different ashes. White ash is a major canopy tree where it grows, and has straight, clear grain that just pops apart when split. It also tends to grow with straight branches and trunks unless damaged. It burns beautifully, though not as dense as oak or black locust.
I have not seen green ash in person.
 
Noel Deering
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Ah, I see. Sounds like white ash and honey locust are similar in that way, except that honey locust has as many btu/cord as white oak and only slightly less than black locust.

Sorry, don't mean to hijack the thread.

Matt- here's a quote for you: "Totally bitchin" is how I would describe Robinia pseudoacacia. Although it might not be the most helpful quote seeing as how my chief qualification is merely that I'm opinionated. But seriously, Wheaton's video about black locust is pretty good. One thing that comes to mind is Vander Meer talking about the type of shade that it casts.
 
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Sean Banks wrote:yeah i heard that is was illegal in some places



USDA Sez Black Locust is native to every state. Not sure how it could be illegal to plant a native plant...?

http://plants.usda.gov/core/profile?symbol=rops
 
Cj Sloane
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Tyler Ludens wrote:

Sean Banks wrote:yeah i heard that is was illegal in some places



USDA Sez Black Locust is native to every state. Not sure how it could be illegal to plant a native plant...?

http://plants.usda.gov/core/profile?symbol=rops



Unfortunately, it's true. Natives have been declared illegal in some states!
 
Tyler Ludens
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Cj Sloane wrote:

Tyler Ludens wrote:

Sean Banks wrote:yeah i heard that is was illegal in some places



USDA Sez Black Locust is native to every state. Not sure how it could be illegal to plant a native plant...?

http://plants.usda.gov/core/profile?symbol=rops



Unfortunately, it's true. Natives have been declared illegal in some states!



Proof of cultural insanity!
 
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Black locust isn't native to every state, but it's found there as an introduced species. Since plants native to the same continent and also have similar wildlife value to true natives, they're just called native ehwerever they;re found even in the same continent. Here is a county by county US occurrence of locusts (8 are native to the US, and are the only worldwide):

http://bonap.net/NAPA/TaxonMaps/Genus/County/Robinia

Green: Present in state
Cyan: Native but adventive (my explanation above)
Purple: Noxious weed
Yellow: Rare
Blue: Non-US native

I also don't think all North American ash will go extinct, about 10% of green, black & white ashes don't die from emerald ash borer, and 90% of blue ashes don't die either. Just 10% of Manchurian ashes die because they are native to china and have a genetic resistance to emerald ash borer. Should they actually go extinct, then it would be best to plant Manchurian ashes since they will replace all the wildlife that use the native ashes. Only time will tell but what will happen to those ashes native to the west where emerald ash borer has not been found (due to the continental divide). Manchurian ashes themselves have a neat balance of insectisides from what I've read that ward off EAB in china. All NA ashes have them, but not in the correct balance. EAB in china typically attacks stressed trees from drought. I heard there's a relative of ash trees (white fringe tree) that is also becoming a victim of EAB. Also EAB is just mainly a problem in the Ohio area.

http://bonap.net/NAPA/TaxonMaps/Genus/County/Fraxinus
 
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My parents yard in central mass HAD many ash trees.  Some were as big as 2 feet in diameter or more.  They're all dead.  Every single one of them.  They all died and had to be cut down.

Dutch elm was another one.  I used to have one of those at my first house.  It too was huge, and one day, the tree had literally split in half.. when I climbed up, I discovered the entire core of the tree was gone... eaten by the beetles.  

I've heard that some of these trees have been found in very remote areas which have not been infested with the bugs that kill them, but it's rare, to the point that the trees might as well be extinct..
 
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Black locust should be planted with care.  I like the tree. Has beautiful resistant wood that burns hot and long in the stove. BUT unless you mow or graze animals round it it will send root suckers EVERYWHERE trust me.  Young BL are not nice to walk around due to their thorns.  Cutting one down only encourages root suckering.

I am thinking of putting in a BL hedge to control livestock.  But i am giving it a lot of thought.
 
Peter Ellis
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Regarding Black locust's "native" status.  If you look at an assortment of sources, you won't find much consensus, if any.  The only consistent thing appears to be that they don't know the original "native" range, but today it is everywhere, including MA where they've declared it noxious.

I'm always attracted to plants that have loads of potential uses and are also branded "invasive".  To me, "invasive" means "highly successful" and "easy to propagate" and I will be able to get lots of yield for minimal effort
 
Lance Kleckner
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borers have been a problem for mine, but for the pioneer tree aspect, they have been great for me, as they are helping create a forest in as little as time possible and I plant more fragile trees among them.
 
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Not a lot of experience yet. There was a black locust near my house when I moved here but it died, not sure why, perhaps lack of water, perhaps other things.

The neighbors have a couple of trees and they are nice and big, beautiful in bloom in the spring.

Some wood chips I used for mulch sprouted one in 2017. It's right next to my path. I would not have deliberately planted a thorny tree next to the path but I wanted a BL and was loath to move it, afraid I would kill it. It's first year it grew 6 feet tall. this is it's second season and it is now at least 12 feet tall, maybe  a bit taller. Last year I trimmed off lower branches that poked into the pathway. This year I have let them be and will cut them off soon and see if I can root them, I would like to have more of them to plant for shade, nitrogen fixing and maybe goat browse down the road.

BL thorns are short and hooked, just like a rose. WAAAAY easier to deal with than the 6 inch spikes my thorned honey locust puts out.
 
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My experience with black locust is not good, to say the least.  I'm a third generation tree farmer in Missouri.  My dad planted some gullied areas to black locust in the early 1950s at the recommendation of USDA.  The gullies have healed but the trees keep spreading.  Killing them is very, very hard and takes lots of chemicals, which I don't enjoy using.  They've now spread into adjacent fields and are a pest but at least I can control them there.  (They are HARD on tires, don't let anyone tell you otherwise)  I can't seem to stop their slow and steady spread into adjacent timberland and they slowly choke out my oaks, walnuts and black cherries.  I truly wish they'd never been planted but the genie is out of the bottle.  To say they're not worth it is an understatement.  
 
Jeff Marchand
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Are you sure you are not dealing with honey locusts?  They are tire poppers for sure but black locust thorns are like a 1/4 of an inch and are really too small and frail to threaten a car or tractor tire.  They do go through leather gloves and skin for sure.

Black locust are invasive for sure. I have an area that were planted in BL that I want to converted to an orchard. Just cutting them down is pointless. They will just coppice like crazy. This year I plan to cut them down and surround the area with electric wire and put goats in. Hopefully over time the goats will exhaust the black locust shoots  and the soil will be fertile from both the goat manure and the nitrogen the BL fixed.  Should work for honey locust too.  Beef would do the same if area was bigger my cows LOVE BL leaves.  But livestock is not for everyone or every situation.  I think without animals the only other way to get rid of them (other than chemicals) would be to  cut them down plant desirable shade loving trees and stay on top of regrowth. Eventually the BLs will be shaded out.  But that will take years and years.

In the last few weeks I ve had scores of wild turkeys visiting my place.  They are feasting on the BL seed pods that have dropped and laying on the snow. So if your a hunter thats another item in the BL plus column.
 
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Terry Paul Calhoun wrote:

Rez Zircon wrote:

Glenn Herbert wrote:Dutch Elm disease hasn't made the American Elm extinct, only quite rare. A couple of giant specimens still lived around here until a year ago, and I have seen others.



I read of one on the White House lawn that survived; supposedly this tree is over 200 years old. I don't know if the story is true.

We have elms here in Laurel, Montana. Some are quite old; others are seedlings. Nominally-dead stumps will grow sucker trees in abundance (have a bunch of those too). I can't swear to the variety but the oldest are probably over 75 years so certainly from before the plague.

I might have some seeds stashed somewhere from my elms in the SoCal desert, which was beyond the plague's reach.



I'm in Ann Arbor, Michigan, and have many, many elms, some beautifully mature, others at 20 years. They are like weeds in areas around wetness. I don't know why we have survived the disease other than that we are the highest point in the county and all the populated areas are downwind

I'm in n. maine and we used to have millions of elms along the rivers and fields here. when the elm disease hit it in the 70's it wiped out 95% of them. boxelder took over from the elm in wet places along the rivers and lakes. only a few single trees remain isolated along the fields. EAB has just been discovered last summer for the 1st time in maine. ash is definitely the most abundant hardwood we have around here esp in wet areas. . its going to rewrite the ecosystem here and not in a good way!
 
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At my place, black locust is a marginal species. It barely manages to survive. It is not at all invasive. It is attacked by a borer so young trees often break apart during wind storms.
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