So, whatever i build will have to be "agricultural". This is something that i want anyway so, good to go. But how can you "make" such a contraption anyway ? Well, first of all it must NEVER ... EVER ... come close to looking like a HOUSE. This is perfect, since don't like much of the "modern" looking houses (traditional ones maybe).
So a barn ?
One answer would be "traditional" building (pertaining to the materials and construction "technology"). That means cob, rammed earth, straw bale, some wood, etc.
I've read the "suck factor" thread and done the math. I actually agree with both sides pro/contra.
Since i am an engineer (told you so), my first thing was "standard" materials. That means OPC, EPS, glass wool and all that jazz. But after reading the "raised earth foundations" and similar threads by J.C. i suddenly got some light bulbs working (a lot of them). They shed some light on the path i was on (that being that i'm on a wrong one).
So now, between using rocks (hey, i live 30km from a quarry/sand mine) and using "tataki" (thanks for that J.C.) for the floor (instead of OPC concrete) i actually am much closer to the goal.
However, what remains is the larger picture.
Ok, so let's get back to the drawing. What i envisioned was a sort of house attached greenhouse. The access can be done by some type of door, usually closed. I've read what has been said about these kind of structures and, for the first time, i am willing to let them go if i realize they are too much trouble.
Since the land is sloped, i thought of doing a small terrace or even a sunken terrace (as shown on the drawing).
The "house" will go on the north side. Original thought was SB but thick rammed earth might be a better match (i have a lot of earth).
Mice loved the EPS/wool and almost completely destroyed them by doing tunnels inside but left the bales intact ... completely unexpected behavior.
Now this was protected EPS/wool.
This i got confirmed from several other people (that rodents LOOOVE EPS/glass wool).
I like the drawing a great deal, yet would shift the design to reflect a regional vernacular style of structure more.
Ionel wrote:Regarding the barn thingy, i must explain where i come from. The barn, as was known thruout history over here, is becoming extinct. It's architecture and construction tipology is considered deprecated. More "modern" styles are encouraged but modern man's lifestyle does not require anymore such a structure.
Ionel wrote:I do remember my grandparent's barn and the other villagers who had one (these were built more than 60 years ago). I can't really say anything about the architecture since i don't think they had a coherent one ... Put together some mud, wood and straw and there you have it (some also incorporated small parts of concrete as it was new and shiny then). No prom queen on the beauty side but who cares, right ?
Ionel wrote:Google is of no help since my people don't like sharing too much (worthy info) on the internet ...Care to shed some more light on this one ? I'm having a little trouble picturing it ...
Ionel wrote:Regarding material use i do have some experience wit cob, stone and straw bale. The straw clay slip i know is good but i lack one important info: what wall thickness can it be realised, how tall can a course be layed and how long will it take to dry. Alternatively, could a rammed earth/clay straw slip sandwich be made or it's not justified ?
I am afraid (I don't mean to correct or criticize your view...) however to state that these vernacular forms didn't have a "coherent" form, does not reflect the rich heritage, nor brilliant styles that exist through this region, which is very much part of my own very mix heritage. I do not presume to speak to what structures you saw or "think" you understand that was just, "Put together" with "some mud, wood and straw," but I would have to strongly suggest...respectfully...your comments above do not reflect any knowledge at all about how they are constructed. Not at least in the true vernacular forms of this extremely rich and diverse region that would be Romania.
Height with "straw clay slip" is only limited by the timber frame structure it is placed into. Wall thickness can be as great as required to achieve the desired efficiency goal one wishes to obtain. "Sandwiched" and related multi stratum design matrix with natural materials mixing both thermal mass and insulative forms are all applicable to vernacular design systems of which there are many heritage forms.
Ionel wrote:What i remembered is from an area of the country where living was not easy and the modernity virus was very strong even 60 years ago.
One other aspect is the actual word BARN. This has so many facets but english has only 1 word...
What i was talking about were mainly the standalone structures that only took one function or maybe more but did not involve actual people living inside. These i had little success finding. One example of the kind i do remember is this one.
Ionel wrote:My land sits at the middle of two small villages, Charlottenburg and Altringen. So, even if you can see the violent assault of modernity, the actual timeless feeling of these places is kept also in the old to very old housing.
Ionel wrote:My land is on a hill, therefore sloped. My engineering self thinks that a construction placed inside the hill, even partially, will benefit from the geothermal energy.
Such a structure will have to cope with some humidity since earth is naturally moist.
Ionel wrote:But what about the walls, especially the north one ? I have extended the foundation thinking to the walls. If gravel works for the foundation, why nor for the walls ? That's why i have added the gravel between the northern wall and the earth.
Ionel wrote:I now battle with two sides of a coin. Mass and insulation. I need and want mass and i know it works differently than one would imagine (better). I still think a little insulation can help. Here the clay straw slip has monumental advantages (or so i imagine).
Ionel wrote:- wall insulation (possibly the easiest)- roof insulation (how ?) floor/foundation insulation (a red herring?).
Ionel wrote:Can you give some links to the sandwich part that i can study ?
The walls can be stone if you have them, or some type of gabion system if you do not. Tires filled with rock are a form of gabion system. So your concept of gravel is perfect...this is normal, common and appropriate "good practice" in all these types of builds. There are some "do's and don'ts" but those are easy to avoid. How the drainage is constructed, the size stone, orientation, etc are all the factors that must be looked at. Even the soil types and seasonal hydrology.
As of late, the balance was tipping towards straw clay infill in some form of framing, be it larsen truss or something else. It makes too much sense for the outside walls and for the available materials/workforce.
I did experience cob firsthand and, considering local limitations, i think RE is easier to do but much harder than straw clay.
The straw clay outside walls + mass inside walls (cob/RE/stone) is something beginning to settle in my mind. Also, a mass(ive), thick floor is something i consider. I am having a little hard time figuring how to make a structurally sound hybrid.
My main question is how to secure the interior mass walls to the exterior insulative walls.
I know the exterior walls have a wooden truss system but how can this be safely connected to the mass walls (pink ellipses on the drawing)?
I live in a somewhat seismic active area so good lateral integrity is essential.
Also, another question. What about the northern wall ? It will be backfilled with gravel. I think a good plaster would be lime. How will the plastered straw clay wall behave in this situation (not exposed directly to air) ?
And what max wall thickness for the exterior wall (considering it has to dry) ?
I am not really sure, at least for me, I would try to re-invent any wheels here creating "hybrides." All these methods come in vernacular versions that only need very little adjustment to work well in concert with each other.
And what max wall thickness for the exterior wall (considering it has to dry) ?
I would have to see better schematics/blue prints and now the other loads this foundation is going to take before I could give german recommendations or ideas about this.
Straw-clay is perfect for the exterior walls. But for interior walls, what is the benefit ?
So this is what i was calling a "hybrid" - straw-clay on the outside as infill, cob (stone or other mass) on the inside.
The structure it seems to necessitate a timber frame.
The exterior walls are easy, just a truss of some sort fixed to the timber frame and infill with straw-clay. The interior walls have to be connected to the timber frame too via different means.
The Bhatar/Taq/Dhaji Dewari are simple yet effective methods to build. The connection between inner and outer walls is straightforward. But if these walls are different types, then what ?
I was only referring to the exterior strawclay infill walls. Most sources say 12" or max 14" due to the drying time. I saw someone do a 20" wall and had no issues. I would prefer the 20" thickness or perhaps even a little more.