Sex, rubber dolls and communication

  Hey Paul ,are you cross with me? It was not me who started on rubber dolls so i don't know why you put me down as the only author of this topic. Except that you are very cross with me and then i suppose if i am to face realities i have to ask, do you want me to exit ?
      If you are worried about the starry eyed ought you to just leave this topic out all together. I am going to correct what i wrote, and remove the word sex, any way you can decide about the starry  eyed, i had forgotten them, certainly the title you have given this will make them find this here quickly.
  Are you worried women wont like men if i say it is a disallusion that makes intimate relationships hard having a relationship with someone who is as uncommunicative, which is really aloofness, as men normally are to women in adult life. Many men don't normally talk much to the woman they have married and this is traditional and as such accepted though aloofness is ugly and i see no reason to be nice about it.
      Wont the starry eyed stay starry eyed for longer if this theme is dealt with. Love men more and better if we get rid of the strong, silent, man who is really the arrogant, aloof, man who cant be bothered to spend time with the woman who is dependent on his company as he has reserved her for himself  by starting off a relationship with her or by marrying her.
      You don't seem to be the aloof type with your friendly conversations about whether pigs eat slugs. That is not the conversation of who tries to impose themselves but of who is trying to make a nice uncompetitive and fun conversaton.
        Women  will love men more, the starry eyedness wont turn as fast into that long hard trek because relationships are difficult so you must hold on, grit your teeth and bare it. If we stop men from thinking that they have to hold the reins so htey had better maintain a distance in marriage so that their wife knows her place or their wife will not obey them. If we deal with this wont Then the relationships become really worth it. 
I remember my mothers nearly constant distress at trying to make a relationship with someone who was not going to try had she but known it, because men are trying to hold the reins of the family rather than have friendly relationships with their wives and the way to hold the reins is to maintain a distance that'll keep others in their place.  is not it worth it to let women know so they can hammer out a treaty that will not be so disadvantageous to them before they marry for example. 
    Intimate relationships are not enhanced by aloofness. I imagine the cool off ends up affecting the pleasure of both sides of the relationship. hope of a fun relationship is a great help for enjoying yourself with another. And intense games like dare kiss and promise type games are not much fun with those that dominate you. 
  I suppose you are very cross with me. i have replaced the word sex, but maybe you are worried about the starry eyed reading such a word but rather about them  arriving at the conclusion that intimate relationships are not always great.
    Men marry women though society, i have discovered, normally warn them that women might try to boss them, a good way of making men hard with women, something the old hierarchal culture wanted looked for in its men. So men still marry when reasons to believe in starry eyedness have been reduced, so women should go on wanting to marry too though they become aware that they have to watch out because the men  they marry are likely to ignore them, both in order to hold the reins of the family more easily and so that other men see they are not the sort of idiot who enjoys women conversations.
    I am putting the old pèice of mine that started this debate into the next bit of this interstingly named thread. I will put the bit that fits in with this debate before the other bit i wrote that comes second on whether doing everything by hand is spiritually satisfying or not.
    Did the person who started the conversation on those men that suffer from the world wide problem of women moving to the towns, so men who work in the country are left to live with out a partner in the country, with a doll  as a companion, take out their piece, leaving my having mention the subject as  strangely incomprehensible.
  If anyone wonders and no i dont hate the people close to me  i insult i hav esome how through a long and painfull process come to believe that fight back is right. maybe it isnot you can argue anything but still thats wehere i am at now. It is, don't be a victim hit back.
agri rose macaskie.

rose macaskie wrote:
   Finding the  rubber doll satifying is hard to imagine, i like the verbal comunication with people i don't feel very satrisfied about sex unless i can at least imagine it will lead to a verbal comunication. I dont like sex atall enough to bother if it is not going to lead to verbal comunication, unless ifeel obliged to bother. THere is quite a ong time when you feel that things wil go verbal so you go on bimagining a good relationship though you are not having one. then there is the surety it wont ever be verbal, total disallusion, harsh reality puts up its ugly head.

   What is it with girls in rural areas . I think it is just that theire aren't jobs for girls in rural areas when they are young before they marry and can get a bit for themselves from the hens, eggs, or butter making .Traditionally women earned a bit of money for themselves on a farm.
       I have hated being away from my family. i was brought up to think that people forget their childhood, you always hear adults say, oh i can't remember that long ago, maybe they just didn't want to talk of it. I was bought up to feel you just grew up and left everything behind, the right attitude for the young of a country that had, before my generation, sent so many young to the colonies. I found that i cared a lot about all the things i had been used to as a child and went on carring all my adult life about losing them, so maybe its not so cool for girls to move away though they thin they can take it .and if adult life were talked of in a different way they would think twice about leaving .
   I have seen more cases of men taking women off to their home towns than vice a versa, so maybe women have always had to bare the seperation. In traditioanl places it is usually the women who have to go to the mens parents house .
      It is usual to talk as if women were softer than men, i begin to think that men have it softer than women in many ways. rose 

Well, Rose, I think this thread is going to break new ground in the 'stacking of functions' in permaculture.  And by eschewing hard-to-degrade rubber, there could be more creative uses found for surplus fruits and vegetables for both sexes, instead of them otherwise going straight to the compost pile.

Seriously, though, in Japan the young women tend to gravitate to the cities for a clean and comfortable office job where they can find an ambitious young salaryman to attach to.  Also, rural mothers-in-law are notorious slave drivers.  I recall once hearing about a program where they flew in plane-loads of mail order brides from the Philippines because the men had such a hard time finding wives, but many of the women soon returned to their home country.  According to the mothers-in-law, they could never do anything right.  You know, the rice had to be cooked in exactly the right way or else it was thrown out, for example.   And they were expected to do all kinds of dirty, dreary farm chores that rural women normally do in Japan.

And so the men were turning to inflatable dolls.  (There was actually a funny article about this in The Japan Times.)  The older types were naugahyde vinyl, apparently.  The problem with that, though, was when the guy would start to perspire, the naugahyde would stick to his skin!  You can imagine for yourself the difficulties that would cause.  Sometimes the guy would have to puncture the doll just to [s]remove his[/s] 'detach' from it.  But then they developed a new kind of vinyl that supposedly didn't stick to the skin.  This was a number of years ago and I imagine there are even more advanced models now.  But, yes, they probably are not very good at conversation!

  I had not read bruce33f bit which makes me feel a bit happier about the name of this thread when i wrote the above and put it in the place of the peice that started this thread because as the piece that started this was no longer in the place it was written i felt it needed a new begining, it no longer made much sense.
    He replied to the bit i have moved that is now after the bit he has written.
  In spain the girls move to the town and it is not as if the situation of a spanish gilr is that of having to live with her mother in law, at least it does not happen often.
    I had a friend in england whose job on a farm gave him problems with girls, one girl refused to get in the car when he picked her up in the car he used to move his goat, his only car. She did not want to smell of goat. rose .

Another writer on these forums suggested that in parts of the world men in rural areas live alone with a rubber doll for company and my comment is that i don’t think a doll is very satisfying as company, i like verbal communication with people, i don't feel very satisfied about intimate relations unless i can at least imagine it will lead to a verbal communication, a bit of pleasant rapport and sharing deep thoughts. I don’t like intimate relations without verbal communication enough to bother with them  once it is clear they are not going to lead to verbal communication,  unless I feel socially obliged to bother, so i don’t know how a rubber doll could help, they don’t talk. There is quite a long time when you feel that things will go verbal one day so you go on imagining a good relationship though you are not having one, then there is the surety it won’t ever be verbal, total disillusion, harsh reality puts up its ugly head.

  What is it with girls in rural areas. I think it is just that their aren't jobs for girls in rural areas when they are young before they marry and can get a bit for themselves from the hens, eggs, or butter making .Traditionally women earned a bit of money for themselves on a farm.
      I have hated being away from my family. I was brought up to think that people forget their childhood, you as a child always hear adults say, oh, i can't remember that long ago. Maybe they just didn't want to talk of it. I was bought up to feel you just grew up and left everything behind, the right attitude for the young of a country that had, before my generation, sent so many young to the colonies. I found that i cared a lot about all the things i had been used to as a child and went on caring all my adult life about losing them, so maybe its not so cool for girls to move away though they think they can take it .and if adult life were talked of in a different way they would think twice about leaving rural areas.
  I have seen more cases of men taking women off to their home towns than vice a versa, so maybe women have nearly always had to bare the separation from wha they new as a child.
    In traditional places it is usually the women who have to go to the men’s parents house .
      It is usual to talk as if women were softer than men. I begin, with the passing of a lot of years an dso with more experience,  to think that men have it softer than women in many ways. rose 

THis is the other bit of what i wrote that made paul wheato open this thread though it does not go well withthe title it does explain bruceef answer to what i wrote. an dit ought to go somewhere.

My mother was convinced that the old fashioned ways,  the sort of thing liked in permaculture, were good and i was always trying to, untidily darn socks and such, because she convinced me of the beauties of old fashioned life. To hand wash wollies, sew clothes and to make jam, the truth is she was a bit naughty and got her daughters to cut the oranges if she wanted marmalade, machines aren’t the only easy ways out.  It was impossible for a disorganized person like me to study with all those alternative activities. That is one point that people who are very the natural life oriented should consider, school work for someone like me needed to be miuch m0ore totally dedicated to studying to be good at writting and spellling that I was not good at, as well as picking up ideas.  The parent who wants you to darn and such can be pretty tough later in life about your short comings on the paper work front so they should be aware that it school work needs time and chores make that harder. And if they must give their children chores be reasonable when they don’t do paper work perfectly.
        Another activity that she instituted was being nice to everyone that came to the house which meant giving them a lot of attention. She thought being awfully nice to anyone who turned up at the house was the only way to be a nice person, the butcher the baker the candlestick maker and the lord, whoever appeared, or more correctly, the tinker, taylor, soldier, sailor, rich man, poor man, beggar man, thief. My mother really did have us cooking dinner for tramps, if they knocked on the door, we girls cooked for them . She was also crazy about us being well read and socially aware and such she was one of those unreasonable people who have no idea how much people can take on at once.
      I appreciate all her reaching out to people and that she taught it to me too, it was one of valuable things about her, still it does not help the young do their homework if you have them entertaining the carpenter, the man who brings the milk, who ever turns up. It is maybe more important than studying but in adult life people get at you for not spelling well so it brings hardship on the children exposed to it . Maybe hardship is inescapable.
   
  If one is to tell the truth about darning and such and permaculture does discuss the advantages of the old fashioned ways thi spiritual value of manual work, too big a quantity of manual work did not make me happy, it takes you away from the verbal consideration of more important, to the spirit, and to other things  questions like how much time should you give to the people around you. What is good for the earth all those important things that are vital and so interesting. Some people think they are boring but I think the ideas around them have deformed them and made them believe that they don’t like the vital.
      I was not very happy darning and such though i believed it made people happy. I like cutting vegetables though. I thought i liked doing things the old way but that is not true, I don't like house work or cooking much. I am a better cook than cleaner. I do however enjoy the food and the gardens that are the result of this sort of work and I do enjoy gardening but I don’t give a dam whether I have darned socks or not.
      Being happy is a strange thing, I adore children i have the most beautiful memories of the riches of being with them emotionally but i am happy as a sand piper blowing my top off all day on the computer, more so than i am with little children. I thought happiness had to do with being with people and it turns out i am happy on my own with a machine, though i have moments of thinking what will become of me if i don't get up and make friends.
      I thought it was necessary, if you were going to look after yourself spiritually and emotionally, to reserve a part of your time for people, friends and  such and now i think I will still go on liking people though don't see them. I begin to question the necessity of being with them.
      I don't know where this comes out, if it goes on to long. Maybe the thing is that the computer does bring you into contact with people just they aren't physically present. I was unhappy when i was seeing people, except before marriage when I chose who i spent time with and in a way I am happier dong this than i was even then, so humans don't work anything like I thought i did and thought that others do if my experience is right or I don’t Agri rose macaskie

My womans lib self. Paul Wheaton, would you want boys to be starry eyed or just young women. My observation is that young women are taught to think partnerships will go well but men are taught to think women will try to boss them and so they can't be so starry eyed about the relationship. In the film Aragona Baby, when she complains about his jail bird friends, they ask him  whose wearing the pants or some such. I don't think that sort of comment is so common coming from a girls friends. I don't think people want young men starry eyed they only want women that way they are going to impose on them this is not very nice when the contract is that you promise to love someone when one would hope you were at least going to try for an equal relationship. I dont want starry eyedness i want maximum possiblility of happy marriages. Happy woman equals happy man or even happier man there will be better vibs probably better sex feeling is everything in sex and it is hard to have accompanied with the sad thought this man finds me to boring to talk to.  agri rose macaskie.

Even sadder than the knowledge that your husband does not find you interesting enough to talk to, something that just stays there as a depressing reality, and you talk to him just so he does not feel like a bore, is that he is that he is in fact trying to keep you in your place it is a stance he is purposefully not talking to you .  it is hard to face up to the fact that those around you have tried to do for you. There was a film of a girl who discovers her father had been in the SS it is a bit that sort of discomfort and shame that you have to face contemplating this sort of reality. I married a beast and i have been foolhardy. .  a cruel system has been put in place by the person you are meant to be loyal too.
          Those who try to keep you in your place are not very open about it, Their behavior follows the same behavioal patterns that are followed with employees, the employer does not wants to actually insult the employee but you don’t want to let them think they can have an opinion about the direction of the business or be your friends, so you turn down proffers of conversation amiably but always, till the other learns not to try.
    Classism is a cruel system. People who put in classism in place put in place activities  like never telling the group that is to be imposed on  anything, if they don’t know as much as others, then  everyone will agree that it is only right and proper that they should be manual workers.  O rlike denying their abilities or potential so its may be considered not worth teaching them or trying them out.

  The boss needs time to read the newspaper the employee does not, a boss would not keep up enough in the world of new ideas to manage the business if he did not know what was going on and also needs to keep in with his peers, you never know when they wont be useful for the business and that means in lots of circles reading the paper so they won’t think that he is stupid so they will appreciate him. The bos there for asks and gets a head start for practical reasons you may think he will be grateful for the head startn you give him, he wont he will call you useless for not reading the papers to though he was not going to wash the dishes and attend the children so as to give you time to do so.

  I went to the shop in the village this spring and the shopkeepers wife said to her husband , “have you heard the king has a tumor, and he replied in a squashing tone of voice, I heard that a two days ago . She had let him know what was going on immediately and he had kept the news under his hat for two days, pig. It is only a silly bit of information, it turned out to be a benign tumor but still you look silly if you don’t know and men do enjoy keeping up with their friends and laughing at the ignorant, they do know they have done you down by keeping it under their hats though they pretend to do so innocently. I once saw that woman with a black eye.
I also saw her ask her husband to take some books up to the house in the car, and he said no she could carry them, it was summer and very hot , I challenged him on this and he said he wanted to keep her exercised . she trudged up the village street with two heavy bags he went up later in the car.

  Not wanting to talk to another person means the other person is a bore, People always want to talk to the interesting so you may conclude that they find you boring if they wont talk to you at all unless you have observed that they are too shy to try for anyone. My husband does the shy bit  but he drops it if he is with his friends from work and with a boss even more so.
      Refusing to talk  also means that there is no discussing of activities, The typical way to shut of a conversation is to procrastinate, “can’t you see I am busy now”. Add to that the act of giving the woman a reputation of always trying to talk to you,so she is scared to make it look as if that criticism is true by talking to you  and you manage never to discuss anything. Preventing all discussion of activities means that the boss can always do what they want, they can even pretend they are doing what the other wants as they don’t get to know what the other wants it was never discussed, my husband offers me two choices I normal chose the thing I know he wants to do and if I don’t he gets cross without saying why, that sounds silly but he does, till I chose what he wants, then he tells friends he always does what I want  he is that complicated about looking for the moral advantage the advantage of Pretending it is always him who has been good. Marriage makes it easier to trick others, it is hard to walk out of a partnership, you have to face an enormous amount of criticism if you walk out, “what a tart she is, always changing boyfriends” or  “she does not know how to stick at anything” and the same people who direct this sort of argument at you are the ones who accuse you of liking domination if you don’t just leave.
      It is often accepted that humans do down people of another group. Doing down  your employees intellectually is acceptable or seems to be accepted by most, partly because you do them down to your own social group which is not the people they move with so you don’t spoil their standing in their own group . Doing down is an instrument of maintaining your position among you workers, it allows you to say, look I should be the boss he is not as bright as I am, you wait for them to say something that allows you to say he said this, what a lack of judgment. The desire to prove your superiority leads people  to selective perception, they notice the silly things the worker has said and attribute the clever ones to outside influences.  However it gets to be used in marriage, “look how bad women are at driving, my wife…” or “women don’t read instructions, my wife…”. or they are ignorant, my wife…” this is doing down where you are to enjoy or suffer from the same friends and doing down a person who works for your interests but does not get paid, the lack of money ties her a lot. I understand the behavior of a boss who is aloof they pay me to take orders, I find it harder to understand from someone who gives me no monetary remuneration and whom I am meant to have sexual relations with.
      This is more cruel than the class system.  If you collect the stupid things other people have said you do for their chances of having a sensible conversation among friends- men do for women without even noticing they have done so. They also don’t notice when their sisters or daughters have just been downed either or rather downed so repeatedly as to constitute squashing the other. It is as far as I can observe  valid that a man sees a woman’s faults with great clarity and it is normally considered disloyalty if a woman does the same to men.
      Activities with friends who treat you as a person who drags along but is not very interesting, lose interest when you are the person who bores them even if you like the activity. How do people expect sex to go well under the circumstances that normally exist in marriage, with your strong silent male, to use the traditional way of describing their aloofness, for example.
      There is no book on sex that is going to take away the dreariness of an activity shared with whom has done you down, no exciting no information from books like “the joy of loving”, do away that fact. It is my belief husbands also make love aloofly. So sex should be graded, rape, to aloof love making, to making love lovingly. I think that a positive emotion is conveyed even when you are only acting the emotion, so if there is no such feeling the other is not trying at all.
      You may feel as if your husband is nice because they earn money or something on a rational level  but the childish rule, he is nice he likes my company, is the one that is always real and if they can’t be bothered to talk to you well you will find no real gratitude in your heart. Only what your reason provides
        It is not good for the children either, your daughter goes and finds herself an equally scornful squashing mate, she is used to it, she thinks that it is only normal that people should criticize her. It is so hard to decide what is a reasonable amount of fair criticism and what is someone keeping you down, is simply squashing. Your daughter will accept an equally crippling relationship, instead of thinking there is no way i should accept a male who is too critical or squashing and the whole sorry business starts again. Maybe your son sees his fathers elegant aloofness and decides to copy it, so it is not good for him either, in any case he will be indoctrinated about the convenience of maintaining a lordly distance from his woman or looking like a twit, normally the way to convince people to be aloof lordly and beat as in gain the advantage is to let them hear men who are nice ridiculised and to tell them that if they aren’t ready to do the dirty work, to mash others they won’t be able to defend and look after their family, people ridiculize and use moral arguments to persuade people to take on behavioral patterns, good and not so good ones.  There is nothing moral or loving about marriage it is a partnership that is really a boss, worker ,arrangement with no recompenses that are a real counter weight to the disadvantages that it involves for the manual worker in the partnership.It is merely abusive.  agri rose macaskie.

you always want to find out what others know if you don't want to be rude and insulting and it is time consuming doing so and needs some ingenuity, interrogation technics, it is unusual for people to talk of what they do. So i wonder how one is to find out without spending years with people.  It takes straight detective work to find out, there is no easy way to find out what others know. In hte end you have to be rude or inefectual because some people find the smallest comment rude it is well i will throw my oar in and you can do what you like with it.
    Maybe you can just offer what you know. You can on the computer.
      It is however true to say that you can contribute something as it is to say that they can. We all make mistakes they do and we do. We know the mistakes of modern agriculture and we know the mistakes of old fashioned agriculture. Things often take some unexpected turn down the road we can't get it all right but when people simply go on with traditions they also get distorted and can have been, not so good as was thought, inthe begining.
      Sir albert howard found out the Indians he worked in India were doing somthing complicated to make their, on the face of it, not very good soil work for them so it could be difficult to see the value of what others are doing.
      They were growing buckwheat or some othe deep rooted thing that pulled up nutrients from deep in the soil with other  crops for one and that was one reason the bad soil produced. agri rose macaskie.

rose macaskie wrote:
Even sadder than the knowledge that your husband does not find you interesting enough to talk to, something that just stays there as a depressing reality, and you talk to him just so he does not feel like a bore, is that he is that he is in fact trying to keep you in your place it is a stance he is purposefully not talking to you .  it is hard to face up to the fact that those around you have tried to do for you. There was a film of a girl who discovers her father had been in the SS it is a bit that sort of discomfort and shame that you have to face contemplating this sort of reality. I married a beast and i have been foolhardy. .  a cruel system has been put in place by the person you are meant to be loyal too.

Rose, there's another side to the "silent treatment" issue.  From the experience of many men including myself, you often have to be very careful of what you say to a wife/girlfriend, especially one who is not happy with you.  The reason is that some women seem to have difficulty keeping secrets and will often blab something that embarrasses the man or gets them in trouble or sometimes even worse. 

Also, some women have been known to resort to such passive-aggressive tactics to take revenge for perceived wrongs done to them.  And it's just amazing to me how other women will almost always take the word of the woman in a conflict with a man, without listening to both sides, and gang up on a man in solidarity, which makes things even worse.

I would estimate that much of what goes unsaid by a man in a relationship is for just such reasons -- he doesn't want his partner blabbing to the neighbors or friends, etc.; he doesn't trust his partner enough to tell her important things

Second, why would you want to reward someone who has done you harm by talking to them unnecessarily, especially when there is a good chance that because of the position/power/status/personality of the person a conflict could not be won or settled satisfactorily?  Not talking to someone is often the only way short of outright conflict to demonstrate displeasure, especially when any open conflict would be counterproductive.  I'm not saying it should be used all the time, but it is one tool in a person's toolbox that on occasion must be used.

Rose I always delight in your posts and appreciate this chance to discuss this with you.

I have decided- my readings, my life, my friends and relatives' opinions including my husband's- that men do not value connective talking the way women do. That husbands may be communicating "I love you" to their wives the loudest by being sexual with them.

I try to not feel that DH (dear husband) is failing me if he does not communicate with words of love. I tell him every once in a while (and after about ten years it stuck a bit but we still view it as humor more than romance) "JUST SAY 'I love you' and 'You're beautiful' TO ME".

more later

Re communication- I feel women need it, men don't as much, and try to spare my husband (and my brother when he visits) my needs by having female friends to vent to- my mom, sister, friends, daughter, internet...

Rose are you in Spain? Southern France? What nationality are you, and what nationality is your husband, again?

I picture that area of Europe as the place where a beautiful young man drinks coffee in a cafe while an old bent whithered woman walks by carrying a huge agricultural load and pulling a loaded donkey- and the young man calls out "Mom you have put too much wood on our donkey- take more of the load yourself!" Guess I got that from a cartoon I saw once, I don't know how accurate it is. I also have a stereotype that the men will be very romantic and sexy to their mistresses- and as I have been told to American and Swedish female tourists there- but all that stops at the threshold of their home with their wives.

Your shopkeeper and wife carry out my stereotype. I wonder if your background did not lead you to expect this sort of a marriage but your husband's background leads him to consider that normal. He may feel shortchanged that his wife is intelligent and wants to talk a lot but is not as good as his grandmother and mother were at hard work and housework.

American marriages are different than that and we view those as you describe yours as, well, emotional abuse possibly. Of course unlike physical abuse some emotional mistreatment has no effect on its intended victim and severe effects in other cases. I don't know how to categorize something that is thought 'the norm' for an area. I only hope that you find outside resources and satisfaction without any change required from your husband since he is not terribly likely to change.

when you live with a disabled man sometimes you might wish he was a rubber doll..only joking

Wow!