Flow(TM) Hive may be the innovation that finally gets me (and you) into beekeeping!

I just learned about this new hive from permie friends on Facebook. Imagine: insert a tube into the hive, turn a tap, and honey flows out. No need to disturb the bees! Altogether too cool. No idea how it works, as the inventors are not quite ready to release details.

Flow(TM) Hive

They'll be launching a kickstarter soon and I thought folks here might be interested.

I've always been a bit intimidated by everything involved in hive management and honey collection, but this might be the innovation that gets me over the hump.

Here's a copy of their patent application. United States Application US20140370781 Basically, the cells of the comb are broken up in to vertical strips so that they can be moved up and down relative to each other and grind the honey cells.

color me skeptical.

This is the video from their site.

I must admit I have never seen such an odd hive since the one that Hitlers mob came up with before WWII.
Count me out even if it works

David

That is an interesting contraption. In theory that would be much less stressful and intrusive on a hive.

I am assuming that it can only be used on well developed hives so that you are not tearing apart baby bees or anything?


Instead of having to gas them and tear their home apart to take their hard earned surplus. It would be potentially unnoticed and parasitic in nature like taxes. lol Sorry the Hitler comment made me think up a comment.


I bet a keeper could save the first Jar of the season to return during the winter if needed.

And the cost of such a contraption would be .........................?
And when somezthing goes wrong you .................................?

David

Looks like it is in the hive permanently. Now that would be expensive. What stops it munching bees? Will be interesting to see it when its launched but I don't think I will be lining up too quickly.

It also relys on plastic foundation .
I do wonder if any folks thinking about this would like to hear Pauls exerlent podcast on the reverance for bees before they support this idea .

David

Rob Browne wrote:Looks like it is in the hive permanently. Now that would be expensive. What stops it munching bees? Will be interesting to see it when its launched but I don't think I will be lining up too quickly.

I am in the same boat as you. Worried about the bees getting munched. I have never been one to jump onto something. I always sit back and wait for the kinks to get worked out of something before I jump in. If it is designed well it could last. If not then it won't. I like the spinning cam design portion. They have worked well in car engines. It's all about linkages and fake honey comb design really.


As far as costs go... I will simply do the math when they come out with the price. If honey costs $8 per pound and you were to get only a dismal small amount of 10 lbs per season out of it. Then a cost of $80 would be paid for in a single season.

Or I can add another cost savings point into the equation to add to the savings... Time Saved.
Everyone's situation is different and here is mine. I currently earn about $45 an hour at my job. If I were to save 4hrs of work total each season then $45x4=$180/yr plus the $80 from 10lbs of honey per year = $260 So a massive cost of $260 could be paid for in a single season for me... even if I only produced 10lbs of honey. That is not accounting for the added polination for fruit and veggies. Honestly I don't use that much honey so I would take less... prolonging the return on investment. However, the return would be there eventually(if the product lasts) and I would now be more willing to keep bees with my hecktick schedule. Increasing the quality of life for me and my family. Which, for me, is what this is all about.

This would not likely be a good thing for someone trying to make a living off of honey that does not have capital to invest. It would also shrink their market slightly. However, with the something simple like this you could start to see a hive or two pop up in a neighborhood here and there across the country. Drastically increasing the genetic diversity available for bees.

I suppose I could keep going back and forth with the pros and cons. I may have just opened a can of worms. lol

David Livingston wrote:It also relys on plastic foundation .
I do wonder if any folks thinking about this would like to hear Pauls exerlent podcast on the reverance for bees before they support this idea .

David

I have heard those podcasts and loved them. Opening up a hive is stressful on bees in sooo many ways. Now I know that thanks to his podcasts. This product would help those areas out. No more plain stress, no more smoke, no more cold air getting in that they have to work to reheat, and no more having to make the medicinal air either.

Paul also stated that letting the bees make their own comb is important because the bees that hatch from that will be smaller and have smaller gestation periods. Therefor being less subject to pests and diseases. That is another reason I am worried as to if they have worked out how to keep the hive from starting babies in there. If worked out... then that is Not an issue. If not worked out... then that is a Big issue to me.

Marty Mitchell wrote:
I have heard those podcasts and loved them. Opening up a hive is stressful on bees in sooo many ways. Now I know that thanks to his podcasts. This product would help those areas out. No more plain stress, no more smoke, no more cold air getting in that they have to work to reheat, and no more having to make the medicinal air either.

you don't think having comb torn apart while still occupied would be stressful? how about honey pouring all over the hive and saturating bees? how about all that aromatic honey attracting robbers? how about the queen excluder that would have to be used to prevent brood mush in your Flow Honey Product(TM)?

Thanks tel I knew there was something "wrong " with the video. Anyone who tries opening a jar of honey that close to my hive better be prepared because the girls will want the honey back NOW! and they will not be" taking no for an answer .

Plus how do you know you are getting honey from capped cells ?

Or will it be watery stuff waiting to dry .?

David

Digging a bit deeper, the Flow hive seems to be very similar to the hive described in U.S. Patent No. 2223561 by Juan Garriga from 75 years ago. Perhaps the 1940s Garriga hive never caught on do to a lack of marketing, or a lack of funds, but there might have been some other fundamental problem with the hive.

tel jetson wrote:

Marty Mitchell wrote:
I have heard those podcasts and loved them. Opening up a hive is stressful on bees in sooo many ways. Now I know that thanks to his podcasts. This product would help those areas out. No more plain stress, no more smoke, no more cold air getting in that they have to work to reheat, and no more having to make the medicinal air either.

you don't think having comb torn apart while still occupied would be stressful? how about honey pouring all over the hive and saturating bees? how about all that aromatic honey attracting robbers? how about the queen excluder that would have to be used to prevent brood mush in your Flow Honey Product(TM)?

That is kind of what I was getting at in the second part of that reply that was left out in the quote. Actually litterally mentioned a worry for young and other bees getting squashed several times on different posts.

Yes. I do think it would be less stressful than choking the bees with smoke, removing the roof off of their home, blindly slicing a blade through the comb to seperate the sections, tearing the sections out, then brushing the bees aside to take their honey, and forcing them to build new sections of comb so I can tear it out again.

Honey is always going to be in the hive. As stated by David there are always going to be cells that are open for the world to smell. Honey robbers are going to have a sense of smell far greater than our own and they will find it. Bees are noisy too.

I really do wish we could see a closer detail of the inner workings of the contraption. They said they have been working on it for a while for development. I am betting that the way it is set up is so the inner core of the sections of the cone is what does the sliding up and down so the bees don't get hurt and honey does not spill. None of us know for sure and won't till later on. Either way I doubt it would be an avalanch of honey that slides down taking out bees along the way. Most likely would just be some honey on the feet that they would clean back up and put back into the comb again.

As for bees swarming onto the jar of honey I suppose a person could solve that issue by waiting till night time when they don't fly... or put a cork into the entrance of the hive maybe? I like the night time harvest better. I would personally mount mine inside a enclosed shed with the bee entrance facing outwards. They can't be an issue then. Day or night.

As for the watery honey mentioned... I am also curious about that now too. That is a good point. I wonder if you just observe throught the obersvation window and wait until a comb is entirely full and a vast majority of the cells are capped off. Then just turn the cam to the next click and that section of honey comb opens and stays open until you go to the next click in a week or two. Opening only one comb at a time. Keeping the bees safe. Keeping the bees clean. Or if it does tear the wax cover and let some of the honey out... it would signal to the bees to open that cell and refill it.

Of course all we can do for now is throw ideas back and forth. None of use even know how it works. We are all just guessing and assuming at this point. I want to wait before throwing out any more thoughts.

Marty Mitchell wrote:
Yes. I do think it would be less stressful than choking the bees with smoke, removing the roof off of their home, blindly slicing a blade through the comb to seperate the sections, tearing the sections out, then brushing the bees aside to take their honey, and forcing them to build new sections of comb so I can tear it out again.

if that were the only alternative, I might be inclined to agree with you. I can assure you, however, that it is not terribly difficult to harvest honey while avoiding all the harmful events you mention.

Marty Mitchell wrote:Honey is always going to be in the hive. As stated by David there are always going to be cells that are open for the world to smell. Honey robbers are going to have a sense of smell far greater than our own and they will find it. Bees are noisy too.

uncapped honey being evaporated or finished honey being uncapped for the bees' own consumption is quite different than draining a whole comb or combs inside a hive. the smell of spilled honey, even inside a hive, can attract robbers. the risk is rather low during a strong nectar flow, but very nearly guaranteed after a long dearth. and if there's enough honey drained to actually flow out of the hive as in the video, there's more than enough to drown bees.

but you're right, we don't really know much for sure about the design. one negative aspect I see regardless of how benign the design, is that these contraptions could lead folks down the path of viewing a beehive as a honey machine. put bees in, wait a while, turn a crank to get some honey. repeat. that is an attitude, frankly, that I believe has led humans to do all manner of damage to honeybees and a great many other critters, et cetera.

tel jetson wrote: one negative aspect I see regardless of how benign the design, is that these contraptions could lead folks down the path of viewing a beehive as a honey machine. put bees in, wait a while, turn a crank to get some honey. repeat. that is an attitude, frankly, that I believe has led humans to do all manner of damage to honeybees and a great many other critters, et cetera.

Well said.

I feel the same way. All we can really do in that aspect is teach others about why and how that is wrong. Then help come up with cures to the problems when we see them. Or even just having the courage to say something at all can be hard for most. Just planting the idea to worry about such things can help others to change or be mindful.

Typically if someone is willing to put the effort, energy, and time towards something like keeping bees... they are willing to learn about the subject for at least a short while until they get into their comfort zone. Sources of information like this website will help out a lot. Everybody wants their bees to be healthy and productive.

So long as the tide of the many swings into the Bees favor... they will benifit. I keep mentioning Paul's podcasts to others in hopes that someone listens and spreads it again. Even if it's just bits of the info.

I signed up for their info, and just received this. Purely for interest, not endorsing in any way...

Hi!

Thanks so much for your interest in the Flow hive. We (Cedar, Stu and our whole beekeeping family) are so excited to be letting you and the world know about the invention we have been working on for over a decade. The response has been quite overwhelming, thanks for all the amazing comments. We are working as fast as we can to complete a video that will show you all the details about the technology.

We want to tell you a little more about the Flow frames/hives, how they work, what we think this will mean for beekeeping and where we are at with producing them.

How do the Flow™ frames work?

The Flow frame consists of already partly formed honeycomb cells. The bees complete the comb with their wax, fill the cells with honey and cap the cells as usual. When you turn the tool, a bit like a tap, the cells split vertically inside the comb forming channels allowing the honey to flow down to a sealed trough at the base of the frame and out of the hive while the bees are practically undisturbed on the comb surface.

When the honey has finished draining you turn the tap again which resets the comb into the original position and allows the bees to chew the wax capping away, and fill it with honey again. The Flow frames are inserted into standard bee supers (boxes) in much the same way as standard frames, however the box itself is modified by cutting two access doorways in one end.

When the frames are inserted, the ends of the frames now form the end of the super. This allows access to the operating slots and honey pipe outlets.

You can see into the hive

Each Flow frame is designed with a unique transparent end allowing you to see into the hive. This means you can watch the bees turning nectar into honey and see when each comb is full and ready. Both children and adults get excited seeing the girls at work in their hive. Importantly you will be able to keep an eye on colony numbers thus giving you early detection of any problems within your hive.

Please note: it’s important to check the hive for disease and look after your colony as per usual. This does require keeping an eye on your bees and opening the hive and inspecting the brood if there are signs of pests or disease. Beekeepers usually check their brood once or twice a year. If you are new to beekeeping you will need to seek help from experienced beekeepers.

It’s a fantastic learning curve.

The extraction process is not only easier but much faster with a flow hive

The whole harvesting process ranges from 20 minutes to two hours depending on the viscosity of the honey.

Usually the bees don’t even discover you at the back of the hive. If you notice that the bees have discovered the collecting jar or bucket you can always cover the extracting pipes or make a lid with a hole for the pipe/s.

There is no more heavy lifting

The harvesting happens right at the hive without moving the super boxes at all. No more injured backs!

Undisturbed bees makes a happier, healthier hive

Because the hives are not regularly opened and pulled apart to be harvested, the bees are relatively undisturbed and they experience less overall stress. Although this may seem trivial, bee stress is a significant factor contributing to the strength of a bee colony.

Opening a hive also risks potential introduction of pests and disease. It’s nice not to squash bees in the process of honey harvesting.

The risk of stings is lower

Because the bees are going about their normal business while you are harvesting the honey from the back of the hive. We have found that the bees usually don’t even notice that you are there.

We still recommend you use a bee suit or veil if you are inexperienced, don’t know the particular hive or have a grumpy hive. A hive that is usually calm can be grumpy at times when the nectar flow is very slow.

Where to from here?

After many years of prototypes we now have a robust design that we have been testing for the last 3 years with beekeepers here in Australia as well as in America and Canada.

Now we want to share it with you.

The official launch of the Flow hive is on the 23rd of February

We are launching on the popular crowdfunding site Kickstarter.com.

Through our launch we hope to raise the funds to get this project off the ground and start producing and delivering these hives to you within the next four months.

Apparently, if a lot of people pledge early, then the whole thing snowballs. Conversely, if the pledging goes slowly then the project is less likely to fly. In our case we hope many people who want a Flow super to add to their beehive or who want a whole Flow beehive (the bees have to be obtained locally) will pledge on the 23rd or 24th giving us a chance to reach our target and start production.

The early pledges get an additional ‘early bird’ discount off the already discounted price giving an extra incentive to pledge quickly.

We’ll send you a reminder when the Kickstarter crowd-funding time begins on February 23rd, and we will be putting some more videos on our Facebook page and website soon.

We are also making a FAQ page on our website to answer all the great questions that are flooding in.

All the best!

Stu and Cedar Anderson
Our website is http://www.honeyflow.com/
Our FB page http://www.facebook.com/flowhive

I loved the "unique transparent end " I usually call them windows lots of Beeks have them
Do you have bees Burra ?

David

I was lucky enough to spend a weekend with Michael Bush several months ago. Having gotten to know him I trust his judgment on bee matters. After seeing his endorsement of the product on their website, I emailed him and asked if it was the real deal. He said he received a set up and is impressed with it. Even after that I must admit still being cautiously skeptical.

Ernie Schmidt wrote:I was lucky enough to spend a weekend with Michael Bush several months ago. Having gotten to know him I trust his judgment on bee matters. After seeing his endorsement of the product on their website, I emailed him and asked if it was the real deal. He said he received a set up and is impressed with it. Even after that I must admit still being cautiously skeptical.

interesting. that endorsement does have some currency for me...

Ok, I don't get it. Outside of the one window, thus one frame, how can you tell if it's capped honey without looking? Just because one frame is capped doesn't mean that the others are.

Second issue.....is everyone else working with aggressive bees and thus using aggressive techniques? I find that I can use very little smoke, just a couple puffs here and there. So that's not "choking" bees. And I never rip combs while in the hive, other than using a blade to slice bridged comb in order to remove a frame. Any problem frames are removed and dealt with away from the hive.

Just this morning I opened a hive without smoking, removed a frame of capped honey, installed a replacement frame, and checked for small hive beetle. I then removed, cleaned, and refilled the bottom oil tray. No fuss. No stings. No upset bees. But I didn't open the entire hive for inspection. Oh and yes, I don't bother wearing a bee suit. They are too hot. I'll wear a veil only because I hate getting a bee tangled in my long hair. I used to just wear a shower cap until a friend gave me a veil. ............my queens come from Kona Queen. I like the genetics. Calm and decent hive cleaners.

I open my hives at least once a week, twice if there is hive beetle activity. I'll use a few puffs of smoke when I remove the lid in order to drive the queen down if she happens to be up top. I'm looking for hive beetle, treating for varroa mite as needed. Depending upon the hive behavior I might open up the hive more to confirm that the queen is still laying well, how many drone cells there are, and if any queen cells are being produced. But that's not done every visit.

Hive beetle is a major issue here. Fail to open your hive to check means that you'll quickly have an empty hive.

I just have a veil too , Su Ba and hardly ever use smoke
I am going to suggest a competition how much will this super "super" cost
I was going to suggest something like and remember its for the super only
Early bird exclusive offer .....( lots of other advertising flannel ) .... only be fore three days time ...(more advert flannel) 40% ...10% ... (more flannel )
299$
Any other suggestions ?

David

@ Su Ba

There were two windows in the video. What I didn't like is that there are a whole row of flow combs. I feel as though it would be more sustainable to just harvest a single row.

@ David L.

I am guessing less $$ then the riding lawn mowers every neighbor in my area has. Less than the swing sets in everyone's back yards. Less than the lawn doctors I keep seeing everyone use.

More than $300 for the full setup.
Less if just getting the contraption.

Who are we to chose and guess a price. They can charge 1k dollars if they want and some ppl would pay if they advertised enough.

David Livingston wrote: I just have a veil too , Su Ba and hardly ever use smoke
I am going to suggest a competition how much will this super "super" cost
I was going to suggest something like and remember its for the super only
Early bird exclusive offer .....( lots of other advertising flannel ) .... only be fore three days time ...(more advert flannel) 40% ...10% ... (more flannel )
299$
Any other suggestions ?

Around me, a regular super with frames and foundation runs about $45 with a complete hive going for $250. I'll guess $750 for their complete hive, and $499 just for the super, crank, and tube.

their website could stand a copy editor...

Well it appears they were having currency conversion problems with the Australian to USA $$$ so they went with: Indegogo instead of Kickstarter.
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/flow-hive-honey-on-tap-directly-from-your-beehive

Looks like they've done incredibly well in their first day. They're asking for $60 for the super there, so I doubt it would be much more once they get started. Whatever the mechanism used to harvest like that, it's good to know they're getting a lot of support. Unfortunately Tel's point is very real and people will likely consider this a honey machine instead of a convenience used to avoid extra stress to the bees.

At this moment they have raised over $975,000. Their goal was just 70k dollars.

Looks like they beat it by just a smidge on the opening day. lol

I donated $180 to get the 3 bar flow system. I will give it to my brother for Christmas. Is supposed to be able to slip into any 8 bar Langstrom hive with minimum modifications. Can hold 20lbs of honey. My brother says that honey is going for about $15/lb around his house. Should waaay more than pay for itself in the first harvest.

Box not included for that price.

The Flow Hive kickstarter is going nuts. Good for them. I wonder if the discussions here, on Facebook and elsewhere have helped allay some concerns for the well-being of the bees.

I would want to keep hives primarily to encourage pollinators, as at max I would want 10 pounds of honey per year. So I was looking at the various packages they offer and thought perhaps the best strategy for me would be to buy three Flow Hive frames and buy an eight-frame Langstroth hive locally. I could monitor the flow frames and tap them perhaps late in the season, and simply leave the five standard frames alone. So the bees would have at least 5/8 of their honey as their over-wintering supply, and I could feed some of the harvested honey back to them if ever it was needed.

I regard raw honey as a medicinal and a special treat. At our rate of consumption -- maybe two tablespoons per day on average -- the yield from tapping three flow frames just once a year would be plenty, with some extra to share with friends. I would regard the hive as simply providing shelter for my hard-working pollinators, so that my orchard and garden would provide more abundant yields.

Thoughts?

ran across this review this morning:



as this is the only video of his I've watched, I don't know much about this beekeeper, but he's at the very least a fairly articulate chap.


having looked at their campaign site a little bit closer, a couple of things occur to me.

a window at the end of a frame does not allow a beekeeper to see further than an inch or so, at best, into the hive. there is often capped honey on the edges of a hive when there is brood or uncapped honey in the center. there is no way to know if the frame is completely capped without opening the hive somehow. a queen excluder would solve the brood issue, but not without creating new stresses. the uncapped honey issue is a tougher one. opening the hive and inspecting the frames is another obvious option, but not one that I imagine folks buying this thing will be interested in.

I don't know what sort of plastic they're building these things out of, but I would expect bees to propolis and burr comb the bejeesus out of them. if they aren't removed regularly to clean them, they could very well jam up. at that point, you're back to the same problems that all frame hives have.

and this blurb, that I found on the indiegogo page, does not allay my fear of folks viewing a bee colony as a honey machine:

The options are endless. Put a hive on your roof and pipe the honey right into your kitchen at the press of a button.

I've noticed an interesting trend: everybody I know who already keeps bees is extremely skeptical of this thing. that ranges from conventional beekeepers who are into the whole kit and kaboodle of disruptive interventions on to the folks who rarely, if ever, open their hives even to harvest honey. the folks I've encountered who are really interested and gung ho and supporting the campaign have never kept bees. I'm not sure yet what to make of that.

I regularly tell folks how easy it is to keep bees and encourage them to get into it, so I'm certainly not opposed to new folks trying it out. I am opposed to spreading unrealistic expectations on a grand scale as it appears these folks are doing, intentionally or otherwise.

I am so glad this was posted here. I've seen the video a few times and I was really curious as to how it worked and what people thought. I think I like the idea of it. No, I don't currently have bees. Yes, I'm building my own top bar hive. So I would not buy this product right now. However, in the future, if I'm successful at beekeeping, I could see myself getting the entire set up. Why I like it, time. I am so busy all of the time. If I could make harvesting honey easier on everyone, I want to do that.

Heidi Hoff wrote:The Flow Hive kickstarter is going nuts. Good for them. I wonder if the discussions here, on Facebook and elsewhere have helped allay some concerns for the well-being of the bees.

I would want to keep hives primarily to encourage pollinators, as at max I would want 10 pounds of honey per year. So I was looking at the various packages they offer and thought perhaps the best strategy for me would be to buy three Flow Hive frames and buy an eight-frame Langstroth hive locally. I could monitor the flow frames and tap them perhaps late in the season, and simply leave the five standard frames alone. So the bees would have at least 5/8 of their honey as their over-wintering supply, and I could feed some of the harvested honey back to them if ever it was needed.

I regard raw honey as a medicinal and a special treat. At our rate of consumption -- maybe two tablespoons per day on average -- the yield from tapping three flow frames just once a year would be plenty, with some extra to share with friends. I would regard the hive as simply providing shelter for my hard-working pollinators, so that my orchard and garden would provide more abundant yields.

Thoughts?

I read up on the FAQs page last night. Looks like you should be able to buy the three Flow hive frames and divide them to different hives if wished. Or... you could go in on the price with two others and make the cost 1/3 of what it is normally. A single Flow frame will hold about 7 lbs of honey when full.

Also the FAQs page stated that the FLow combs are trimmable to fit a Warre' hive.

@ Tel Jetson

I didn't like the sound of that portion of their webpage either. Nor the remote harvesting system they say they are going to create.

I did see in one of the videos on youtube that the gap between the moving parts of the Flow hive sections is pretty substantial. It is set up so that the bees cannot store honey in there without having to first build it up. Looked like about 1/8 of an inch. It would take some seriouse grime to fill in those wide gaps. I bet it would still have to be taken apart from time to time though even still.

Also, I agree that the bee keeper would have a hard time seeing into the hive far engough to know if the combs were filled completely. If I did this I would take the Flow combs and use two combs max per box. Putting those two on the outside of the hive box so I could see the full comb through a large window. It would be easier to judge when it's time to do some cleaning too.

Marty

The following is only my opinion based on more years as a beekeeper then I want to remember-(I was born just a few years after Emile Warre passed away).
Judging by the "stampede" to buy this product, these two gentlemen have become millionaires. Congratulations to them, the marketing is fantastic, timing is perfect. However, in their advertising of effortless honey production they have presented the art of beekeeping as not much more then an afterthought. As in any form of animal husbandry, one must have a certain level of knowledge to be successful. Beekeeping is unlike any other form of animal husbandry and does require a specific knowledge and experience to be successful.
Promising the general public endless effortless streams of honey flowing from a box of bugs sitting in their backyard is going to have dire consequences for many first timers attempting beekeeping.
After all this "slamming" of their presentation of their product, I am not telling people not to buy it. I am saying for this product to be successful the buyer must first be successful at beekeeping. Just hint for keepers wanting to give it a try- wait a year or two before procuring this product. There will hundreds of used ones sitting in dead hives at give away prices and some sitting discarded in apiary sheds.

their claim of crystal clear honey with no filtering is one more bit that I object to. no pollen? no bits of wax that will drain down with the honey?

I don't mind a little pollen and wax myself, but again, I'm very skeptical.

I think your point Tel about all the beekeepers going mmmmmmm and everyone who is not yet a beekeeper being enthusiastic is a telling and pertinant one .

David

If I did this I would take the Flow combs and use two combs max per box. Putting those two on the outside of the hive box so I could see the full comb through a large window. It would be easier to judge when it's time to do some cleaning too.

I was thinking along the same lines, Marty. I see your experience makes you more conservative than my ignorance does me. I'll heed that advice.

I am saying for this product to be successful the buyer must first be successful at beekeeping. Just a hint for keepers wanting to give it a try - wait a year or two before procuring this product. There will hundreds of used ones sitting in dead hives at give away prices and some sitting discarded in apiary sheds.

Good reality check there, Ernie. You confirm what Tel has been saying.

So, as a complete novice, I will continue to do my homework this season, setting up more plantings of flowering plants to cover the longest season possible in Zone 3b. There are several commercial honey producers within an hour of where I live, with various approaches from traditional to organic to permie-ish. I'll make sure I visit them all and get as much info as I can. Only then will I start acquiring hives. And if after all that research, a few Flow frames still seem like a good idea, I'll try it. Or maybe I'll wait a year or two...

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/flow-hive-honey-on-tap-directly-from-your-beehive#home

I noticed a Permies icon on their graphic of "who's talking about Flow™ Hive". doesn't elaborate on what we're saying about it...