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My Experience Eating Nothing From Plants, aka Zero Carb

 
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Kathleen Sanderson wrote:

Matt Walker wrote:The only Masai that were carnivores are the warrior caste, the ones who need to be smartest and strongest and fastest.  They save the superior nutrition for the people who need it the most.



That goes along with my thoughts, that the diet high in carbs does limit intelligence.  



Eh, no it doesn't but you aren't specifying what kinds of "carbs" you are talking about.  Complex carbs are very healthy and necessary.  Simple carbs(white and processed) are not.  Also, if you look at foods that pack the most nutrition in them(nutritionally dense) there's not a single kind of meat on any of them.

Of course no one person synthesizes the same foods the same way.  However, in order to reverse chronic disease, PREVENT chronic disease and repair damage to your body you must have the necessary nutrients.  Meat doesn't pack near as strong a nutritional punch as plants do regarding that.  Where we fail in the meat debate is that we(generalizing here) are nowhere near as physically active as we used to be and our meat is nowhere near the quality it was.  Aside from that there are no known peoples historically other than those from the highest areas of the planet who ate meat and fat dense diets.

In consideration of how long it actually takes the evolutionary process to work, unless you descend from any of those peoples it's more likely/possible you will be fueling future chronic disease.  I know, everyone says they feel fine but seriously, most people do feel fine before they get sick.

Gladiators were vegetarians and called "barley men".  Daniel and his men(as well as other biblical mentions) "fasted" by eating plants and drinking water so their minds would be clear and bodies free of impurities before battle.

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/guest-blog/human-ancestors-were-nearly-all-vegetarians/
http://www.pbs.org/food/the-history-kitchen/evolution-vegetarianism/

OP, good luck on your experiment but please be cautious.

 
pollinator
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Thanks for the thoughtful responses all.

I am sharing this in hopes it reaches the people that need to hear it when they need to hear it.  If you aren't in that category, please just ignore it.  I'm not in the vegan threads, or "balanced diet" threads, with my opinions on how that impacts health or other living beings, and I never will be.  The truth is those discussions never go anywhere, might as well be politics or religion.  This is mostly due, in my opinion, to the fact that nutrition science is more of a religion than a science at this point.  There are almost no "facts" that we can state about nutrition in the current state of the science.  Lots of opinions though, and that's just fine! Thanks for letting me share and for keeping your minds open.

All that said, if you do have a specific concern regarding nutrition on this way of eating and would like to discuss it, I am happy to try to dispel any concerns.  Thanks for letting me share and for keeping your minds open.
 
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Dado Scooter wrote:As a gout sufferer, this kind of diet won't work for me.



Gary Taubes was unable to include a chapter he was putting together about gout in his book Good Calories, Bad Calories. If you find the Zeroing in on Health Facebook group and go to the Files section you can find the short scratch version. It is not complete, but still backed up by citations.

I'm not sure if this link will work: https://m.facebook.com/groups/105005229541718?view=permalink&id=858911317484435

The gist seems to be that red meats are blameless.
 
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Patrick Kniesler wrote:you can find the short scratch version. It is not complete, but still backed up by citations.

I'm not sure if this link will work: https://m.facebook.com/groups/105005229541718?view=permalink&id=858911317484435

The gist seems to be that red meats are blameless.



That link didn't work for me, but this one does:  https://tim.blog/2009/10/05/gout/   "Gout - the missing chapter from Good Calories, Bad Calories"

The argument is that sugar or more specifically fructose, is responsible for gout.  Fructose raises blood levels of uric acid.
 
pollinator
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I have heard of the zero carb diet in ancestral forums before, and while I have considered it as a fast I am still a little sceptical

One of my concerns us the gut biome- the results from the current science says that the more variety we have in our diets, the more variety we have in our biome, and the research seems to suggest that the more variety we have in our biome the healthier we are... another concern I have is the activation of the mTor pathways, which is activated by an overabundance of protein - and the mTor pathways seem strongly linked to cancer. But maybe if you eat 80% animal fats you aren't actually eating that much more protein compared to what I am currently consuming... and if you are zero carbs then maybe there is nothing to feed the cancer-cells...

Wrt. Ancestral diets - there are a wide variety of them across the globe. Some nearly 100% carnivorous (but none are actually 100%), some are nearly 100% vegetarian (but none are 100% that either). It seems like the longest living people on this planet currently eat a lot of veggies. I personally eat very very few carbs - mostly limited to tomatoes and peppers, maybe some berries once in a while, but ALOT of veggies - more than many vegetarians I know. That is how I feel best I think - but as I have never actually been zero carb I cannot say. I haven't been vegetarian for more than a few days straight - but since I am allergic to nuts and legumes that does not seem like a viable option for me - and honestly I am not convinced that it is all that healthy either (lacto/ovo/pescetarian on the other hand I believe is immensely healthy - if you tolerate dairy and eggs).

Congratulations on finding something that suits you and seems to heal your health issues. I will give your podcast a listen one of these days.
 
master steward
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Dawn Hoff wrote:
One of my concerns us the gut biome- the results from the current science says that the more variety we have in our diets, the more variety we have in our biome, and the research seems to suggest that the more variety we have in our biome the healthier we are... another concern I have is the activation of the mTor pathways, which is activated by an overabundance of protein - and the mTor pathways seem strongly linked to cancer. But maybe if you eat 80% animal fats you aren't actually eating that much more protein compared to what I am currently consuming... and if you are zero carbs then maybe there is nothing to feed the cancer-cells...



My husband has Crohn's. To keep in remission, he's on the Specific Carbohydrate Diet (the diet that GAPS is based off of) and as such he avoids all starches and any sugars that aren't honey or fruit/vegetable. Those sugars and starches (as well as soy and vegetable oils) feed the bad bacteria in his colon, which leads his body to attack his colon, creating ulcers and fistulas, as well as body-wide ailments like ulcer/sores on his feet, uveitis in his eyes, debilitating arthritis, fatigue, and diarrhea.

Sometimes, when one has an already compromised gut, avoiding all the things that can feed bacteria is a good thing, especially for a while so that the gut can heal and more probiotic/prebiotic foods can be introduced. I have limited internet, so I haven't been able to watch Matt's videos, but I read in this thread that he had gut issues before going to an all-meat diet.

But, my husband--before he was diagnosed with Crohn's--also used to try a lot of paleo/primal diets. He ate just potatoes for weeks (the "Potato Hack"), and also ate zero carb for a while. I don't know if this constant change in diet (with the resulting die-off of both good and bad bacteria) contributed to his Crohn's occurring. With him, there were a lot of other factors that probably influenced his Crohn's more, such as living on a diet of mostly sugar and starch and processed foods as a child, being on multiple courses of antibiotics (a few of those times, his dad gave him antibiotics from the fish store, because they couldn't afford a doctor), and having a family history of gut problems. But, I can't rule out that sudden changes to very restricted diets might contribute to things like Crohn's. I personally wouldn't go to an all-meat diet unless things were really bad in my gut, for fear of killing off both good and bad bacteria. But, for some, an all-meat diet might just be the ticket to healing. If SCD ceases to be enough for my husband's gut health, we might just try an all-meat diet.
 
Dawn Hoff
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Nicole Alderman wrote:

My husband has Crohn's. To keep in remission, he's on the Specific Carbohydrate Diet (the diet that GAPS is based off of) and as such he avoids all starches and any sugars that aren't honey or fruit/vegetable. Those sugars and starches (as well as soy and vegetable oils) feed the bad bacteria in his colon, which leads his body to attack his colon, creating ulcers and fistulas, as well as body-wide ailments like ulcer/sores on his feet, uveitis in his eyes, debilitating arthritis, fatigue, and diarrhea.

Sometimes, when one has an already compromised gut, avoiding all the things that can feed bacteria is a good thing, especially for a while so that the gut can heal and more probiotic/prebiotic foods can be introduced. I have limited internet, so I haven't been able to watch Matt's videos, but I read in this thread that he had gut issues before going to an all-meat diet.

But, my husband--before he was diagnosed with Crohn's--also used to try a lot of paleo/primal diets. He ate just potatoes for weeks (the "Potato Hack"), and also ate zero carb for a while. I don't know if this constant change in diet (with the resulting die-off of both good and bad bacteria) contributed to his Crohn's occurring. With him, there were a lot of other factors that probably influenced his Crohn's more, such as living on a diet of mostly sugar and starch and processed foods as a child, being on multiple courses of antibiotics (a few of those times, his dad gave him antibiotics from the fish store, because they couldn't afford a doctor), and having a family history of gut problems. But, I can't rule out that sudden changes to very restricted diets might contribute to things like Crohn's. I personally wouldn't go to an all-meat diet unless things were really bad in my gut, for fear of killing off both good and bad bacteria. But, for some, an all-meat diet might just be the ticket to healing. If SCD ceases to be enough for my husband's gut health, we might just try an all-meat diet.


I agree that cutting out certain fibres etc. might be very good for you for a while. And I am not at all convinced that we need any carbohydrates... But I have heard some functional medicine practitioners say that eg. the SCD/GAPs diet should be a short term intervention to heal your gut, but if you continue for a very long time it might lead to SIBO bc. Some of the bacteria in your colon begin to travel up the digestive system in search of food. But what will then happen if they find nothing further up the digestive trackt? Will.they then die off completely? And is that a good thing? The body is a complex system, and that means that we are all very sensistive to the initial conditions and our results and needs can vary immesely. I certainly do not have THE answer - don't even think there is one. But it is an  immensely interesting subject.
 
pollinator
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I do have quite a lot to share myself on the topic! I am at least very high in animal protein, but I cannot help eat "what there is".  I try to figure out if I try to go 100%....

I think what can be worked out better,is that we need a way to assess who can best benefit from high protein or up to 99,99%!
A good way is a hair analysis by trace element or ARL. Another lab does a hair bulb analysis that will give you also your amino-acid balance, plus hormones, not only the sexual ones.

Protein are very needed for many things in our bodies including detox and endocrine system. Most of us do not have enough good stomach acid to break amino acids from food. For those who keep some plants but want to go higher in animal food, I suggest having bitter greens such as dandelion as first thing in the morning! Go and munch! It will trigger stomach acid. I do not recommand vinegar though some people can feel fine. Not on a regular basis at least, but as medicinal. I think herbs are more medicinal than food...

For some people and according to cravings, likes and dislikes, I would include organs, because muscle is very rich in zinc, and you can end up with disbalancing copper ratio... which is a big problem that can appear later, it depends how you were when you start the diet... If you need zinc, then you will not crve organs, and if you need copper you will need organs. Matt you might watch this after a while, to check your zinc to copper ratio.

I also have better result with eating a lot of my meat raw. I use lemon juice, as I have lemons.... Then I boil the fleshy bones. I also use skin. All this brings me calcium and more minerals, and you might also need the aminos that are in gelatine. Like glycine. There is too little in meat. Liver also has vitamine c and some tribes used to eat it raw if I remember some of my anthropological readings well....

Matt, if you started with a lot of muscles meat and little bone and organs, it means very probably that you started with some health issues linked to unbalanced ratios of your calcium and copper! I for example in my hair test, have not enough potassium and phosphorus compared to calcium, so I need muscles and not too high in calcium. This influenciate the thyroid and adrenals.... Also, I was too low in sodium though I get salt, and I am high in magnesium, maybe because of my low potassium....

But I am low in copper, so I need liver!

If you were copper toxic, which is very frequent, with a bad ratio to zinc, then it explains your beautiful results with meat better than organs for you... High zinc from meat will have chelated your copper and helped you to eliminate it. But this balance will change with time, so be careful to listen to your body, because the pendulum laws are always in action!

Hope my 2 cents help....

Edit: I was not able to listen the videos yet when I wrote this. I meant it general, and bring some concentrated informations to sceptics / people who can be interested.
 
Matt Walker
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Thanks again All!

Nicole, I am under the belief that I am a Crohn's sufferer.  In the video I share that I suffered from bloody diarrhea and deep depression my whole life, among other symptoms.  I was strict SCD for almost a year and made great improvements, but I was not able to fully heal until I dropped all plants.  This is a common story from AI sufferers who go ZC.  It does take a few weeks/month to adapt, and no one is immune.  My theory is a large part of that adaptation is the biome trying hard to stay alive, so it makes life miserable for the first week or two for some during this period. This is one reason why changing from one extreme to another over a short time can keep things from ever stabilizing.

Xisca!  Thank you!  Wonderful info. I just had blood work that shows calcium and got a full Iron panel.  I'll have to revisit to see if I have copper info in there.  I'm hoping to do some hair testing in the coming year to get some more assurance.  At this point, all the bloods I have been testing are improving and ideal on this way of eating.  My Doctor is ecstatic.

I don't eat organ meats, and I grill a lot of the fat out of my meat so I am eating very high protein, and while it's high fat in the context of a diet with plants, it's not terribly high, and low in the LCHF context. I do eat about 4lbs of beef a day at this point, so the sheer volume of meat means high nutritional inputs, outside of what we might assume at first blush.  

There are many things about this way of eating that are counter intuitive, and lots of preconceived notions about how one "must" eat high fat, or "must" eat organ meats, and so on.  The reality is that each of us still need to listen and tune the diet to what works for us.  I tried to follow those "rules" in the first months and made myself ill.  I do believe that my Crohn's or whatever it is may have compromised my ability to process fats, but for whatever reason I feel far better if I eat the way I do.

That's why I'm sharing my story.  If one simply reads the comments in this thread, we can see that many people have stated their beliefs as absolutes of nutrition.  "Essential carbs," too much protein causes obesity and diabetes, Complex carbs are very healthy and necessary, this diet won't work for gout sufferers, etc.  These are all false in my opinion, keep in mind all of that info is gleaned in the context of a diet including carbs. Regarding gout, every sufferer who I've heard of who has gone ZC has experienced profound relief, despite the belief that it may exacerbate it.  Current studies point to fructose as the main driver of gout, but as I said, I don't put much faith in nutritional studies.  I don't know why it works, I only know that it does for many.

My point of view is we know very little about all meat diets as they have never been studied barring Stefansson's Bellevue Experiment, but we apply all sorts of beliefs to the thought of it.  So, again, I'm sharing this to counter all of that stuff we "know", and hopefully help some people become aware of a possibility they have never considered, because it sounds nuts and goes against everything we think we know.  The results speak for themselves in my opinion, not just in me but in the vast majority of people who attempt this in good faith.  Looking at carnivore humans is fairly convincing.  As a group we are amazingly healthy, fit, and thriving.  Just look at any long term human carnivore, I believe that the health of these individuals is undeniable.  That's what I am basing most of my faith on, my improving health and that of my peers.

I certainly hope I can help dispel these myths and helps someone find their health and thrive the way I am.  I'll continue to share my story, and I appreciate the continued support and dialog.  Thanks Permies!


Here's a couple of my latest pics, I can't deny I'm thriving like I NEVER have before.  At 48 years old I'm stronger, more flexible, less joint pain, capable of more work, etc, than I was throughout my 20s and 30s.



 
Xisca Nicolas
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On my side, I absolutely believe you that it can work! I just want to add that when you are happy to have found a solution, you must still stay open to make some new changes. The reason is simple: you are getting better with the change, and you will reach a new point of balance. Take the image of the see-saw or a scale, you charge it on the side where weight was missing, and there is a moment you must slow down the process and balance it, maybe with some changes... Just be curious!

I am following this forum... https://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/carnivorous-zero-carb-approach/
But they focus on raw food mostly...

Your problem with fats is the difference with me as I have problem with carbs only. I can have raw veggies and I even prefer to have some with my meat.

Do you have fish and eggs?

Xisca!  Thank you!  Wonderful info. I just had blood work that shows calcium and got a full Iron panel.  I'll have to revisit to see if I have copper info in there.  I'm hoping to do some hair testing in the coming year to get some more assurance.  At this point, all the bloods I have been testing are improving and ideal on this way of eating.  My Doctor is ecstatic.

I don't eat organ meats, and I grill a lot of the fat out of my meat so I am eating very high protein, and while it's high fat in the context of a diet with plants, it's not terribly high, and low in the LCHF context. I do eat about 4lbs of beef a day at this point, so the sheer volume of meat means high nutritional inputs, outside of what we might assume at first blush.  



My hair and blood were showing the reverse about copper and zinc! Also iron seemed great in blood, and it is a bit too high in hair...
I have done this test:
http://traceelements.com/LabServices/LabProfiles.aspx
The other lab is: http://www.arltma.com/HairAnalysis.htm
They are the 2 basic labs that follow the Paul Eck approach and do not harshly wash samples (which can change the results). For people who are interested: notice you need undye / untreated hair, and do not use shampoos with selenium in it.

I want to do this one: hairmineralanalysis.co.uk/shop/hair-bulb-test/
It is called multi functional test, from golden salus medical center. The website I mention is for Europe though, and I guess there are labs working with this compagnie in US!

Proteins in food are overlooked, maybe we were told we needed them during growth as a child?

For people having hives and all sort of histamine issues, you need more proteins, and you need to assimilate them with enough stomach acid. Stomach acid is a necessary foundation for health, and in modern life, we should all check it very carefully.

Matt, did you have to increase slowly, so that your stomach would adapt to making more acid juices?
 
Xisca Nicolas
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Matt Walker wrote:Here's a couple of my latest pics, I can't deny I'm thriving like I NEVER have before.  At 48 years old I'm stronger, more flexible, less joint pain, capable of more work, etc, than I was throughout my 20s and 30s.



If it was not for the obvious snow behind, I would put myself on the gf waiting list!!!


Your words show the sort of happyness that comes from success, thanks for sharing!
I used to work in the snow until 38, then was not fit enough, and sun helped me a lot to recover, and I wait for fruits to stop and give a go to more protein... What can you do when the garden offers chirimoyas, orange guavas and even 1 last papaya!
ok, my guinea pig meal is waiting for me right now....
 
Matt Walker
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Xisca, I am absolutely open, but I believe I will never eat plants again.  My opinion is there is no benefit, unless I can't find meat.  You can be sure that I am paying VERY close attention, as is my doctor.  I have gone through quite a few changes in the formulation of my diet over the last year, and I'm sure it will continue to change over time.  At the moment I'm pretty much beef only because I feel best on that.  I do feel that eggs and fish are valuable additions and I have been eating them regularly throughout this past year, just not at the moment.  I ran out of fish, but my buddy stopped by over the holidays after cleaning out his freezer and blessed me with 60lbs of wild Alaskan halibut and salmon, so I'm heading for a fish phase!  My chickens aren't laying and I try not to purchase much food from the store, a hold out from my days as an avid gardener eating mostly plants.  I do buy the occasional dozen just to make sure my E, A and EPA/DHA are covered, among others.

As for the adaptation, yes Xisca, very astute.  I did start with five or so small meals a day.  Actually, the first week, I was only able to eat maybe 1lb of beef a day and even fasted for a few days when beef sounded unpalatable.  Then I went to multiple small meals, and over time I have naturally gravitated to two meals fairly close together.  I believe it takes a while for our hormones, hunger signals, satiety, and nutrition to reset and come back online after a lifetime of carb addiction, but over time most find that they prefer to eat large meals in a small window.  Similar to most other carnivores in the natural world.  As for acid, Salt raises stomach acid (chloride) and in the beginning I was salting liberally, and felt it was necessary.  I also supplemented Mg and K for the first few months.  I now do not supplement at all, no spices or salt outside of what is in the meat.  After experimenting with some, lots, a little, none, at various stages and multiple times each, I feel that I feel best without added salt or supps.  I have extensive food logs and journals over the last few years, although now that I'm out of the woods I'm letting all of that slide.  I promise to continue to be vigilant though.  The fatigue I was experiencing throughout 2015-16 is a great indicator that I am in trouble, so I perk up when my energy goes flat.  That's one of my main flags.
 
Matt Walker
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There's no waiting list Xisca, this health issue has had me push away everyone that I cared about.  I'm in the ForeverAlone category, and have been for over a decade now.  Seems hopeless with how strange I am.  My singles profile reads like a list of reasons not to date me!   Short, old, broke, lives in a shack, no bathroom, no shower, no cell phone, no facebook, no social life, eats no plants, doesn't believe in current science.....I could go on and on.  I've come a long way though, that's the last step in my healing process and I'm slowly getting there.

This is not a pity post, I find it sorta funny to be so strange that I can't find anyone in real life to relate to.  I move through my small town like an alien.
 
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I need to insert a dumb joke here.  "if you claim to like animals, why are you eating their food?"

Most Northern peoples traditionally ate very meat heavy diets during the winter (fatten the animals all summer, butcher most of them when it got cold enough and save just enough for breeding stock in the spring).  It was a practical way to convert summer grass or browse (freely available, but inedible to humans) to edible, highly nutritious human food.  With pigs, you add an automatic mast processing system in the fall.  In Alaska and northern europe, massive harvests of salmon, or other fish were smoked, dried or otherwise preserved for winter eating.  In Alaska, huge quantities of candlefish (hooligan) were caught and put in containers to rot so the oil could be strained and collected when it floated to the top.  It was then stored for consumption with just about everything, also used to provide light.  Pretty much all traditional cultures I know of prized fat and meat.

I think that movement, some type of activity, is probably more important to health than the particular diet you have, although excessive simple carbs is a problem.  (activity and diet need to be meshed somewhat, if you're doing hard physical labor and long hours you're going to burn up whatever you eat.  If you're sitting in front of a computer screen all day, you need to adjust your diet accordingly, primarily by adjusting your carb intake.).  

Although people can remain healthy on a vegetarian diet, meat (fish, fowl or red meat) is one of the few single foods that you can live on for long periods of time without malnutrition issues.

I don't really see a conflict with including vegetables (leafy stuff) in you diet.  Carbs are the problem (mostly because westerners are relatively rich and sedantary) and leafy stuff isn't high in carbs and, as noted, does provide roughage.  In 17th century ships, they carried lots of rhubarb to help with the constipation their diet (lots of meat and cheese) brought on.  

Over time you gut biota will adjust to your diet.  If you make a major change in diet, your gut bacteria will have to adjust to the change.  I've notice this when our diet includes a lot of beans for a while.  Lots of gas initially, then less and less as time goes by.  Give it a few weeks

I used to have a book I (I think the state of Alaska put it out) that, among other things, had nutrition data about various kinds of wild meats and fish.  According to that book, eating moose actually reduced cholesterol.  Actually all of the wild meats listed reduced cholesterol,l except bear, which is a lot like pork.  Caribou is kind of like rabbit in that it has almost no fat.  Living strictly on meat with no fat will cause a condition old timers called 'rabbit disease', which can be very debilitating, so a little fat is needed.

We had a friend who was very anemic during one of her pregnancies.  The doctor told her she was so anemic she needed iron shots.  Desperate to avoid the shots (which I hear are quite painful) she asked for alternatives.  He told her if she would eat moose a couple times a week she would be fine.

Moose eat a lot of willow browse, which I understand is chock full of minerals (enough to allow a big bull to grow a rack of up to 90 lbs, made up primarily of calcium each season, in addition to his other bodily requirements).  A moose is the largest deer.  I assume that most deer eating similar browse would provide similar nutrition.

You are not what you eat, you are what you eat, eats.  Garbage in, garbage out.  Good stuff in, good stuff out.  The more you have an animal living a life that is contrary to it's nature, (this includes both diet and activity level), the more unnatural it's meat is going to be, with more potential problems.  Seems like a simple concept to me.
 
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Anne Miller wrote:

I tried to watch your video but since my computer doesn't have sound I just could not read lips well enough to know if you planned to season your meat.  Maybe just salt?



Anne, YouTube has subtitles available - hit the CC button on the bottom right.  
 
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Thanks for the discussion on gout and meats.  I agree that M.D.'s really don't have a clue about gout except for which drug to prescribe!  I did ask about diet and he gave me the standard no-no list which of course included red and organ meats.  Yes, it could be the sourdough baguette that I ate with the pate' was really the culprit, now that I think about it.

Then there's the red tart cherry juice thing...   It DOES work.
 
Dado Scooter
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I wish that we had a ready supply of moose around here.  Deer is plenty but not hunted in my immediate area.  In fact, if there's a gunshot heard around here, you would be surrounded by a SWAT team.  One time as I was leaving the ranch that I boarded my horses, the road was closed off because someone dared to shoot wild turkeys on his own property.  It's not like it's an endangered species.  The Sheriff, Milipitas Police and Fish and Wildlife were all there with their lights blinking...  We have plenty of wild boar that does much damage.  They are trapped but not put into the public food stream.  I love wild boar sausage.  I have had moose and elk during a summer spent in Wyoming, but have not had it since, nor have I seen any of it for sale.
 
Mick Fisch
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Then there's the red tart cherry juice thing...   It DOES work.



Dado,

What does the red tart cherry juice do?  We've got some, I use it to flavor my lemonade, but I don't know what it's supposed to do.
 
Dado Scooter
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Red tart cherry juice is talked about as a gout remedy.  I had to look it up as to why since you asked and came across this:

https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/10-tart-cherry-juice-benefits#section8
 
Xisca Nicolas
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Dado Scooter wrote: We don't have a shortage of vegetarians and vegans around here.


I don't either! We need them, so that we can have enough meat! I just suffer from some intolerance sometimes....

Matt Walker wrote:There's no waiting list Xisca, this health issue has had me push away everyone that I cared about.  I'm in the ForeverAlone category, and have been for over a decade now.  Seems hopeless with how strange I am.  My singles profile reads like a list of reasons not to date me!   Short, old, broke, lives in a shack, no bathroom, no shower, no cell phone, no facebook, no social life, eats no plants, doesn't believe in current science.....I could go on and on.  I've come a long way though, that's the last step in my healing process and I'm slowly getting there.

This is not a pity post, I find it sorta funny to be so strange that I can't find anyone in real life to relate to.  I move through my small town like an alien.


Sorry for the joke then! Well, maybe I am not so sorry in the end: so I can tell you that you are no alien here, and with your stoves either! many of us for sure feel aliens and do not show it so much, and we always think we are worst alien than others.... I think I will share more on the forum as I have internet in my cave now (yes, you might live in a shack but I live in a cave, a wofati already done...). But this feeling of being alien and so different and a strange person is a mere caracteristic of the nervous system, when there is some social shutdown. I am one of those, so I know what it is and how it feels. But I also know how to modify it... And I might have felt this, because joking is a way to modify the inner state, and also I added this sentence that I was feeling the victory you transmit, and it is a very important process, celebrate victories is very healthy. I mainly wanted to connect to this and be supportive to the success, because I know what it is though in a lighter way on intestine level. For me it comes from before birth problem, chemical toxicity, and it also affected the nervous system. When you have something at intestine level, anyway it is not rare to have a physiological suffering of the nervous system. It has to do with the vagus nerve... You have so much choice in the current science that there are things to believe in!

Some forums are a nice social life aren't they? I think I am going to update about my gardens...

Mick Fisch wrote:I need to insert a dumb joke here.  "if you claim to like animals, why are you eating their food?"
You are not what you eat, you are what you eat, eats.  
Seems like a simple concept to me.



For a joke and words lover like me, you are doing great! I had to read the eat eats twice...
 
Matt Walker
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You are just awesome Xisca.  I appreciate your understanding.  The Vagus was my favorite study topic when I was starting to connect my depression to my gut issues.  As for the rest, I am finally healing and despite feeling like an alien I finally, finally, finally really love who I am.  Jocelyn can attest to my constant wonder at Paul's advanced skills in this area, and it's far and away the feature of his I admire most.  I am finally learning how to do it, I am healing for sure.  Yes, these online communities are amazing, and I am so thankful every day for this.  I think the healing I have done these last few weeks as I share and get support have been the most profound of my journey thus far, and it's all thanks to people like you and all who participate here.  Thank you Permies!
 
Xisca Nicolas
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Matt... Have you tried raw meat? Do you have a reason for always cooking it? Actually I tried a raw diet when I was in my 20's, and it was amazing, just found it too difficult and dropped it. Those last 2 years I tried the Ray Peat diet, but the healthy version, not with junk food, and it was not good for me. i reacted in september and fasted. Finally my hot flushes are gone, my cortisol works better and I am not hungry all the time. I went up in meat, but I have difficulties, that is why I went on this paleo forum I pointed to. I discovered here for the 1st time that some people were going 100% proteins...
I could get some very fresh maquerels and I  decided to try if raw was ok.... and the fish was gone before I could understand what had happened! It was so much better than cooked! I try to eat some of the meat raw, and then I cook the rest with the bones. My problem is to be in a subtropical island with little grass... Cows are sheep are fed green bananas! I recently bought a freezer. I can get some organic beef and lamb from a neighbour island. I raise only guinea pigs at the moment.

I do not understand this sentence: "my constant wonder at Paul's advanced skills in this area", as I do not get the meaning of wonder in this context, nor what is the area you talk about...

I have had time to go through your first video, will watch the others too. It made me remember my mushing times...
I think you are good at obtaining support, until now I have been bad at it, I do not get what I need, so I give the understanding and support I feel good, and actually it is like getting support. Maybe there is no direction, only connection, and it has been said that virtual e-etc are not true, and I do not agree!

Actually, I say vagus, but I mainly know how the waves of the nervous system go up and down, and how to manage this. I mean I do not mind the science but the behaviour. I was also a dog behaviourist, that is how I started to notice how this was working. You have dogs, so you also have it under your nose! By the way, I had my dogs 100% meat, and it was also shocking for most people! (some said I was feeding them cadavers...) How big was the change when I stopped the kibbles! They were on chicken. And the first week they were farting smelly...  I used to say that corn was for chicken and chickens for dogs. Kibbles are full of corn.

I had sheep, and I remember some puppies and a lamb eating together and despising the others' food, until one day they all thought that the others' food seemd nicer! I was quick to stop the catastrophe! It would not happen with fresh food... only with dry food.
 
Xisca Nicolas
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Mick Fisch wrote:

Then there's the red tart cherry juice thing...   It DOES work.



Dado,

What does the red tart cherry juice do?  We've got some, I use it to flavor my lemonade, but I don't know what it's supposed to do.



It is a remedy for gout!

And also good for kidneys in general.
 
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I'm going to say, your diet wouldn't work for me.... I couldn't afford it :p

Now I know you don't have four legs but it sounds fairly similar to my dogs diet, and for her it is important to get the organs (liver kidney tripe and spleen, other "organs" count as meat) also bones and skin, she also gets fish and eggs Partly to keep the nutrition up and partly to balance calcium and phosphorous.  To those mentioning gout, my mother has a very bad case, so much so they brought in medical students to look at her and the hospital doctors say she is the worst case they have ever seen. She cannot eat more than 20g of red meat any liver or any shellfish without triggering an attack, not even a single mussel. the attack comes on within 24 hours of the offending consumption so it is easy to track.

So long as your blood etc results keep coming back good keep at it, if it works for you no reason not to.
 
Matt Walker
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I did put my dogs on a carnivore diet shortly after going that way myself.  I couldn't rationalize feeding them carbs after learning what I have.  They all show improved health right along with me, I feel bad for feeding them what I did for so long.

Xisca, I meant that I always commented to Paul and Jocelyn that I was most impressed with Pauls' belief in himself.  As he likes to say, "I am awesome."  I struggled with that for a long time, not liking myself much, so I always looked up to him regarding loving one's self.

No raw yet for me Xisca.  I do love raw fish, but even though I eat a lot of red meat, I am not really a huge fan of the raw or rare taste.  I cook my steaks so that they are ruined by most standards.  I just like them better that way.
 
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There have been many threads on here, where people wish to produce everything that they eat. It becomes nearly impossible, as they desire many items that come from afar and grow in vastly different climates.

Someone following this diet, could buy 50 acres of rangeland, that might not be good for much else. Practice rotational grazing, milk a few cows, have some chickens, harvest some hay and get a big freezer, so you don't have to keep too many animals over the winter. Done.

Of course, someone could do that and also have a big vegetable garden.
 
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Dale Hodgins wrote:There have been many threads on here, where people wish to produce everything that they eat. It becomes nearly impossible, as they desire many items that come from afar and grow in vastly different climates.

Someone following this diet, could buy 50 acres of rangeland, that might not be good for much else. Practice rotational grazing, milk a few cows, have some chickens, harvest some hay and get a big freezer, so you don't have to keep too many animals over the winter. Done.

Of course, someone could do that and also have a big vegetable garden.



This is a good point.  I'm thinking I might be able to do most of our diet on the two and a half acres we are moving to in Kentucky in a few weeks.  I'm still trying to decide between meat goats and sheep (probably hair sheep); there's not enough land for cattle, and while I'm fine with butchering animals the size of goats, I don't want to try to deal with a steer by myself.  And we can have poultry.  I could raise rabbits for meat, but my granddaughter is allergic to them so we probably won't.  If I set up some aquaponics we can raise some fish, too.  There's a small pond on the property, but we wouldn't be able to raise much in it.  We don't eat pork much and I don't care for pigs, so we probably won't raise those, either.

Honestly, I'm not sure I'll be able to stick to a totally meat diet for very long, but I am going to try it for a month or so and see what happens.  But I'm quite sure that with a garden and some berries and fruit and nut trees, plus the livestock, we can raise almost our entire diet even on a small piece of land.

Kathleen
 
Dale Hodgins
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My neighbor has figured out how to get lots of meat, from a 100 square foot patch of alfalfa. He keeps a tall fence around it, until autumn, then he removes the fence. When deer come to eat, he gets one with his bow. Shoots them from his upper sun deck. Now that's efficient.
 
Xisca Nicolas
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Dale, I have tried this system with my garden, it works super good for rats and lizards!

Matt Walker wrote:Xisca, I meant that I always commented to Paul and Jocelyn that I was most impressed with Pauls' belief in himself.  As he likes to say, "I am awesome."  I struggled with that for a long time, not liking myself much, so I always looked up to him regarding loving one's self.



Ok I understand! For us in Europe it seems that all Americans say they -and everything- are awesome haha! I just see I am a bit an obscure alien to others, and I dissociate in noisy crowds, I do love myself, but I prefer when someone else tell me I am awesome! If Paul was having a permies village more south I would have been a happy ant! I was really tempted...

I try more meat and maybe I can go north again!


Matt Walker wrote:No raw yet for me Xisca.  I do love raw fish, but even though I eat a lot of red meat, I am not really a huge fan of the raw or rare taste.  I cook my steaks so that they are ruined by most standards.  I just like them better that way.



About cooking proteins: my experience until now is that I need less when I eat raw, and I feel it much less "along the path". In the paleo forum, some people that were cooked-paleo said raw came with time, and that they wanted to cook less and less long the meat... You will see, path is open, and you are the one who feels your body, the inner wise is the best. Now I have been through the 3 videos. I was surprised you did not think about gluten before, I am off since 2000. Life changing as I went from "many" to one BM in very little time, less than a week. My celiac test went back negative.... but I was off gluten so.... Why get ill again to know what you already know! Then I found out after a few years that I had to remove all starches, which made be able to stand sugar again. BTW, sugar before was giving me red pimples...

Same as you, there was a moment I felt that meat and fruits were the best... like boudin aux pommes! Canard à l'orange! French gourmet style... Then i discovered that veggies were not acceptable if cooked and also mixed with starch. So I can have salads, and I prefer to have some juicy veggie to chew meat easier. And I need salt.

Some trials of pizza made me understand that gluten was giving irritation, but of nerves mainly! I realized I was off the permanent irritation I had before (I think I did not go depressed thanks to having animals). I do not believe in psychology but physiology! Sure it makes sense for you too! (I have my ready-made answer for people who mention things "in the head", I smile and say that MY head is in my body.... as the rest.) Nerves are not in the air!  Digestive system, respiratory system, nervous system... all can be damaged! Without it being "your fault".

Thanks again for sharing.

Matt Walker wrote:I did put my dogs on a carnivore diet shortly after going that way myself.  I couldn't rationalize feeding them carbs after learning what I have.  They all show improved health right along with me, I feel bad for feeding them what I did for so long.


I discovered BARF for dogs very early... Then I had to make things more easy, and then when I could, I did it again. Then.... even when I say I eat 3 eggs per day, people cry!
 
Xisca Nicolas
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Waoo, I had forgotten this from 1 month ago!

Xisca Nicolas wrote:

Matt Walker wrote:To be clear Xisca, I have always been surrounded by plant based eating as well. My views on nutrition have done a complete 180 in this past year.  I'm so glad too, the overall effect of removing plants from my diet has been profound in many, many ways.


If you have any time and wish to say what triggered you for such a change? And the effect? It is very interesting for people to know in what case it makes a difference. Usually it is good for more parasympathetic people, or having a tendency to slow thyroid and metabolism, and a big need for protein and stimulation of HCl. After a hair analysis, I was advised to get at least 40% of my calories from animal products. I had already made a try in my 20's, and loved it but it was too difficult. I very recently decided to give it a try again, so I jumped on this topic! Living in the subtropics, I have just tryed high fruits 2 years, and was still high in protein but with more goat cheese than meat, and it was not ok. 1 pound of raw beef per day is great! The guinea pig was good, but I will go on cooking the skin I think....



Oh my god, you took time to explain much more than by answering in the raw meat topic! I really meant this: we need to know why people take a decision, so that we can choose according to our personal story. I really know people who got better by removing animal products from their diet. I do not understand why, I just know that it works for some people, and the sooner we know in what case we can fit, the sooner we try what suits us!
 
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David Lehnherr wrote:Wow. Can’t imagine a meat-only diet. Too much protein, especially animal protein, is causing many of our modern health epidemics (obesity, diabetes, etc.). Of course, industrial animal farming is terrible for the planet. Wild game or small-scale animal husbandry isn’t so bad, but they aren’t an option for most people. Simple carbs have no health benefit, but complex carbs (i.e., fruits, veggies, legumes, etc.), which also usually have associated protein, seem vital to good health.



I think you have this entirely back to front!

Carbs are not "vital" for good health though many people feel better for eating them. Obesity and diabetes are a result of high fat high carb diets typically represented in fast food and fizzy drinks. Animal protein does not cause "many of our health problems" though some diabetics may find it raises their insulin.  As seen on Marks Daily Apple (mentioned above) anecdotally many people with obesity,  diabetes, high blood pressure, high cholesterol, autoimmune diseases to name just a few, have found their health recover and their weight drop by following an unprocessed diet with moderate protein and lower carb vegetables, and limited fruit, and excluding  legumes and grains, and in some cases dairy as well. If you don't have health problems eating your present diet then that's great, but people struggling with their health often have to look outside the box for answers.
Its very hard to accept that the common food pyramid is actually detrimental to our health, and as some-one who had been following the low fat mantra for 20 adult years I thought my head would explode when I read Good Calories  Bad Calories  by Gary Taubes. It was in this book I first heard about the Stefanson Experiment.  I recommend this book to anyone who has an interest in nutrition.
 
Xisca Nicolas
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I have managed to get Steffansson's book and will read it! I was just told he puts emphasis on cooked meat and muscle meat excluding organs because he wanted to be more accepted by westerners. It seems that inuit people were more unfreezing than cooking their meat... and for sure they were not wasting any animal part. So I think it is up to anybody to choose according to "guts" if organs are an option or not, and to test between raw and cooked. i was surprised by taste and tenderness of raw or nearly raw!
Carbs are an issue for many people, and the big change is the high omega 6 in our fats, and the lack of sat. fats.

I also think that nowadays food's problem are more about:

- processing and destroying proteins,
- what has been fed to our food (animals and even plants)
- extracting oils ; un-emulsification of fats (job for our liver then!)
- not having a break during the year
   - same food all year, which can bring allergies
   - no yearly fast to reset cortisol receptors etc
- nervous issues including peri-natal stress (sympathetic activation diminishes digestion and immune system)
- lack of breast feeding, c-sections and antibiotics depriving us from some beneficial bacterias.
 
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I wonder how "clean" meat will fit in??

https://www.npr.org/sections/13.7/2018/01/02/575061101/clean-meat-via-lab-is-on-the-way?utm_source=howtogeek&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=newsletter

http://www.memphismeats.com/

Added as an edit: One of those weird thoughts that sometimes pass thru: If a person manages to culture cells from himself,
would the resultant "long pork" be considered vegan?  Is "clean" meat--no matter what the source--to be considered vegan?
This could become relevant if this stuff passes all the hurdles the BigAg meat industry will probably throw at "acellular
agriculture".
 
Xisca Nicolas
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I am shocked by what implies that meat is dirty! Call a cat a cat: this is lab meat! Calling it clean meat is manipulation, not only of cultured cells but of opinions and traumatic feelings!
 
R Jay
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Xisca Nicolas wrote:I am shocked by what implies that meat is dirty! Call a cat a cat: this is lab meat! Calling it clean meat is manipulation, not only of cultured cells but of opinions and traumatic feelings!



I agree with you....that is one reason why I put the word "clean" in quotes.  

There are two other implications maybe  more important.  First,like Monsanto before it, there are claims that this
will solve the hunger problem while solving the problems raising animals are purported to cause--land used as
pasture rather than for vegetable/fruit production, more corn and soy for people instead of animals,climate change
from methane production...just to name a few.

The other implication is not that meat in self is dirty, but that the raising and subsequent butchering of animals for
that meat is "dirty.....even if it is pasture-raised with respect and the only "bad" day it has is butchering day.    
 
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