Anne Miller wrote:I had my 2nd gout attack on 1/9/18. I feel my attack was brought on by stress and dehydration. I am still having some minor pain.
From reading here on permies, I feel the long term cause is the high calcium content of our well water.
We are trying to find a water filter that will remove calcium and is reasonably priced, will last and do the volume of water that we need.
I am doing the ACV and cherries.
jordo acorn wrote:howdy,
had my first gout attack last week, horrible pain.
jordo acorn wrote:anyways, have been doing lots of research about it.
a few things I keep running into is that gout is common in vegetarians and vegans as well as meat eaters.
so the theory that meat (purines) cause gout seems strange.
First of all, there’s the problem of vegetables. Even though most vegetables are low in purines, a few (like spinach, for example) have a significant amount. But in the NEJM study linked above and in this one (completely different authors and population), purine-rich vegetables weren’t associated with gout at all.
Then there’s the fact that only about 1/3 of uric acid in the body comes from dietary purines; the other 2/3 is produced by the body itself. In other words, no matter how many purines you eat or don’t eat, the majority of uric acid is coming from somewhere else anyway.
most of the research I am doing is on paleo/keto relations to gout as thats the diet I feel best on.
I believe for me years of alcohol, sugar spikes and dehydration lead to gout?
just throwing it out there,
jordo acorn wrote: I believe for me years of alcohol, sugar spikes and dehydration lead to gout?
Anne Miller wrote:Thanks for the links. I probably should have explained better.
A few years after being diagnosed with the thyroid/low blood sugar, I felt really bad, like tired all the time. I went to the Dr. for blood work and he said everything was fine. I knew I didn't feel right. While searching a book store for something that might help I found low carb. Since I started eating low carb my thyroid is Ok. I had blood work last year and my thyroid was in the desired range. When I eat too many carbs I can tell by the way I feel.
So far, I am mainly eating vegetable and fruit carbs and everything seems OK.
I really want to control the gout with diet.
paul wheaton wrote:
A few numbers:
dried nori seaweed: 592
So, carrots and eggs are good. Seaweed is bad. During a gout attack, probably wise to not eat anything with a score of 20 or higher. And eat plenty of stuff with a score of 10 or lower. And, as always, lots and lots of cherries.
And then I spotted this:
This is bluegreen algae.
Most mushrooms, except for dried shiitake and hiratake, contained 6.9–98.5 mg/100 g purines, so they were classified in the low or very low group. Dried shiitake contained more than 240 mg/100 g purines. It is thought that the amount of purine became larger because purines in mushroom was condensed and the weight became light by drying.
jim dee wrote:Have you considered the "Flush" protocols for stones?
Joy Oasis wrote:My Dad had his gallbladder removed a few years ago. I never had official diagnosis of stones, however I occasionally dull pain and hard to describe feelings under my ribs, and when I was pregnant, I had pain from my son pushing (or so I thought) under my ribs. About a month ago, I was eating lots of chayote leaves (cooked and also raw in smoothies), and lemon (I like to put a quarter of frozen lemon in my water or a smoothie, including skin, seeds and all), and my usual herbal preparations and supplements. Possibly something else, but those might have contributed to me releasing the stones. Painlessly. The only reason I knew was because I kept going number two often and after couple of them within 15 minutes, I decided to take a shower to feel cleaner, LOL. While I was taking a shower, stone fell out, and I even thought it feel in through the window. We do have a screen, so that was not possible. I picked it up, and it was slippery, so I realized it was from me. I looked and took a stick and smushed it -it was like a hardish wax. I googled waxy intestine stones, and came up on info, that they are cholesterol stones and stored in gall bladder, but made by the liver. That's why getting the gallbladder out is not yet the end of the story. Not for very long, anyway. Stone was not that small, and maybe I imagined, but my under rib area feels so much emptier now. I looked at my other stools for a while and saw several more stones coming out. One time a few -I could clearly see them as they were darker color than the stool and I pressed them with popcicle stick and they had the same consistency. Now the problem is, I am not quite sure, what exactly I did to soften those stones since I didn't do any official cleanse. However chayote leaves are one of the many herbs/plants that soften and help to pass stones.
Here is what I have in my herbal files about herbs:
Greater Celandine (Chelidonium majus)- whole plant is used. Also great for migraines and dissolves stones.
Gold Coin Grass (Lysimachia christiniae, Herba Lysimachiae, Jin Qian Cao) can be found in almost all Chinese ancient liver gallbladder cleanse recipes, thanks to its amazing ability on dissolving stones and other health benefits. Besides of the compound prescriptions, clinically it is also often being used alone for gallstone removal. Lysimachia is a perennial creeping herb. Stems are delicate, prostrate, and 20 to 60cm long; surface is gray-green or reddish purple; the entire plant is glabrous or sparsely hairy. Opposite leaves are glabrous and with 1 to 3cm petiole; blade is oval, nearly round to kidney shape, 1.5 to 8cm long, and 1 to 6cm wide. Suggested gold coin grass dosage is from 15 to 60 grams in dried herb or 30 to 120 in fresh herb, in decoction or juice.
Ground Ivy , creeping charlie ( Glechoma hederacea) is also used to melt kidney and liver/gallbladder stones.
Bile salts and lecithin supplements miht help to disolve stones as well.
Fresh radish juice - start with 2-3 ounces by weight, and increase slowly to 12-14 ounces per day, before breakfast. Continue for 2-3 weeks at that dose, then reduce to 2-3 ounces again and continue until problems resolve.
Bogbean (Menyanthes trifoliata)- tincture -a droper 3 times a day. Also great for viral conditions (including shingles), regulating hormones. Can make strong infusion (1 oz of herb to a pint of water), take 4 tabslp. several times a day. Keep in the fridge.
Excess calcium and low magnesium, K2 and B group vitamin diet creates perfect conditions to form stones, especially where chronic dehydration is present.
Kidney Stone Recipe:
· Raw Apple Juice (if you can find it or make it – the less processed, the better)
· Dandelion Root (capsule or tincture)
· Goldenseal Root (capsule or tincture)
To dissolve the stone, take 8 oz of juice and a capsule each or herb (or one dose of tincture) every hour that you are awake – and nothing else to eat or drink. (You won’t be hungry anyway – this juice fills up the tummy, and kidney stones masks any other sensation.) If it is not a stone, these herbs work to heal the kidney or maintain its natural healing.
recipe from beyonedwheatandweeds.com
Jordan Princess Basma uses for kidney stones Silvery Whitlow-wort (Paronychia argentea Lam), foot of the pigeon in Arabic. She gathers a handful, rinses it with cold water and pours boiling water over it. She steeps it for a few mnutes and drinks it. Pain is totally gone in 10-15 minutes.
Gromwell ( Lithospermum officinale)
decoction -- which consists of just two herbs -- Heart Vine (Tinospora cordifolia) and Chanca Piedra (Phyllanthus niruri)
Chayote leaves -make tea
Queen's Crepe Myrtle (banaba tea)
Lemon juice in water since it has citrate, that helps.
Dandelion tea or tincture from whole plant
Garrya elliptica (coast silk-tassel, silk tassel bush or wavyleaf silktassel) great for gallbladder, kidney stone, and bile cramping pain. It can cause the duct to relax sufficiently to allow the stone, gravel or whatever else to pass with less resistance and pain.
Burdock seeds have often been used as a remedy for kidney stones and urinary calculi. Cook states they "are very serviceable in irritation and aching if the bladder, scalding urine, and urine charged with mucous and gray sediments." Colonial herbalist Johann Christoph Sauer, who wrote one of the first herbals in the "New World", stated that "The seed, taken in one-quint (1/8 ounce) doses every two weeks, will prevent stones in the kidneys and bladder."
"Herbs used for gallstones are dandelion, golden seal, mistletoe, yellow dock, oak, parsley, and wild yam." Dr. Christopher
Hydrangea and marshmallow - hydrangea breaks them down and marshmallow coats them and keeps them from hurting as they exit.
Claudia Orgill from Healthy preparedness blog recommends:
Here are the three simple steps I do to eliminate the pain (and cause) that comes with having a kidney stone within 1-2 hours:
1) Take a magnesium pill - enough times a day to the point where diarrhea begins to occur. (Cut back on the magnesium once that occurs. You want to saturate the body with as much magnesium as possible for that first day.) You can also topically rub magnesium chloride oil over the area that is having spasms - or continually drink water from a glass full of water containing 1/2 tsp of magnesium oil.
2) Drink a mix of 1 part fresh lemon juice and 1 part olive oil. Drink 2-3 Tbsp's at a time - every 2-3 hours the first day.
3) Drink plenty of water to flush that kidney stone out.
Kerrshay Peck wrote:
Thanks for sharing this lengthy but informative post. i read every bit and I have learnt and appreciate your post.
(Taken literally, salt is commonly a part of eating ketogenically. )
paul wheaton wrote:
what i have been eating for the last two weeks
I think this should be taken with a grain of salt.
paul wheaton wrote: This is just me. And what works for me might not work for others. And there might be a bunch of stuff here that is really messed up and I will come up with something better later. Or it is messed up and I won't figure out something better.
cherries, apples, pineapple, grapes, blueberries, tomatoes, dried fruits, bananas, lemons, limes, grapefruit
avacado, greens (except spinach), carrots, radishes (especially daikon), peppers, celery, squash, sweet potatoes
coffee with stevia and "nutpods"
mayo made from avacado oil
chips made from veggies
cheese-like stuff made from almond milk
fruit preserves sweetened with fruit juice
I like to get stuff to be more raw/fresh and less cooked.
Sometimes in small amounts:
potatoes, onions, asparagus, cole crops, spinach
beans, peas, lentils, soy
meat or fish
nuts (except a few macadamia nuts)
paul wheaton wrote:
Here are a few things about supplements that i am sharing because I am a bit on the fence.
One, is that a lot of sources desperately want both gout and gallstone folks to consume two tablespoons of organic raw apple cider vinegar three times a day, just before eating.
paul wheaton wrote:
Two super short videos. The first one played a huge role in me moving toward trying the cheegan diet. Especially the part where he mentions cooked foods:
In this one he talks about people fasting. And while I wasn't fasting, I wasn't eating much. But the big thing is where he mentions "potassium citrate"
Matt Walker wrote:I had Gout Paul. Carnivore diet has cleared up all symptoms, and from what I've read from others who eat this way that's the normal. Can't have gout without carbs, apparently. Worth a month of experimenting in my opinion.
Todd Parr wrote:It's fascinating to me that you have people from all areas of the spectrum, vegan to paleo to carnivore, that thrive on their particular diet. Obviously, no group is wrong, so rather than figuring out which is "better", I look for the similarities in diets that would seem, at first glance, to be polar opposites. Without fail, the diets that are working for people, have some things in common. No processed foods, no processed sugars, whole foods, whether meats or veggies or fruits. It seems that as long as you follow those guidelines, personal preference can dictate. There are some major differences, especially when it comes to grains and dairy, but an easy fix for that is to follow an elimination diet for 6 or 8 weeks, and then try adding in common trigger foods to see how your body reacts.
Lee Kochel wrote:Others have covered this already, but I am moved to contribute also. The answer to all gout and gall stones, regardless of blood type and personal genetics, is a ketogenic diet: high, 80+% fat ( a few percentage of which is equal amounts of omega 3 and omega 6 fats and the rest any combination of omega 9 and saturated fats); moderate, 15 % protein (half of the body protein is formed from collagen which is made up of 3 amino acids and is found in skin, hair, tendons, ligaments, all connective tissue, the outer layer of all the larger bones -- all the meat parts that most people throw out); and low, 5 % carbohydrates from green leafy vegetables including cruciferous which are mostly steamed. No grains, no refined sugar, minimal fruits, no chemicals, no excess omega 6 fatty acids, no msg. In your, Paul's, case it will have one drawback -- you will lose weight. Dr. Berg in your video selection is a great reference.
mark tompkins wrote:
Inflammation is also caused by glutin (Please read the Wheat Belly Book).
I grow my own food using rock dust, in an area out on the prairies that has sandy soil, and my health is 10000000000000000000 X better improved. Cut sugar 99%. Cut bread 90%. Cut meat 70%. EAt mostly chicken for meat, that is almost like organic (no antibiotics, hormones, ...). EAt mostly vegetables, quinoa. I also eat my own potatoes, which is a no no, but, they seem to be beneficial. Rice is not beneficial, especially the processed rices.
paul wheaton wrote:
A few numbers:
dried nori seaweed: 592
Lee Kochel wrote:My fallback is always a ketogenic diet (high fat - 80%, but no extra omega 6s, moderate protein - 15%, low carb - 5% from leafy dark green vegetables), combined with intermediate fasting. And occasionally total fasting for more than a day. Except for emergency situations this can help often more than any medicine or procedure. Also, I know you didn't ask, and I know that there are a few decent doctors out there, but in general asking a doctor for diet advice, when his business model depends on return visits, is a little like asking a wolf for design assistance when building your hen house.
May be closer to keto than you realize.
Jocelyn Campbell wrote:The main goals:
--whole, real foods
--good fats, moderate quantities (NOT low fat, not quite keto either
Terry Wahl's protocol qualifies as ketogenic.
Jocelyn Campbell wrote:
; though we have steadily increased fats without any gallstone attack or gallbladder symptoms)
--LOTS of veggies (goal of 4 cups each meal, 12 cups per day! ala Dr. Terry Wahl's protocol)
I like the "low-to-no" qualifier, but I'd aim for the "no" side of the spectrum.
Jocelyn Campbell wrote:--low-to-no grains
--low-to-no legumes, no soy
--low starchy carbs
--no potatoes, no refined sugars
After the gallstone attacks, we had switched Paul to chicken maybe twice per week, fish once a week, and egg whites frequently. We were just starting to add egg yolks back in (not more than one yolk per day) since egg yolks are high on the list for gallstone attack triggers.
Spinach in big tubs was my frugal, speedy go to for adding greens to eggs, sautes, soups...lots of things. Frugal because it was affordable and because it lasted longer than other washed and ready greens.
Cauliflower was my substitute for rice, mashed potatoes, savory crusts...many things.
Seaweed snacks were our substitute for salty chips.
Mushrooms started going in many things in place of meats.
Parsley went in almost everything, too, plus I made these lovely lemon, olive oil parsley gremolatas which Paul loved
Jocelyn Campbell wrote:So I would make him roasted root veggies (no potatoes), veggie sautes, vegan Mexican soup, vegan curry, vegan tikka masala, vegan squash soup, vegan marinara sauce on konjac noodles, vegan stuffed squash. Raw sliced veggies adorning many plates. Fermented foods at most meals. We would have rice or quinoa maybe once a week. Lots of avocados. Oils have been olive oil, avocado oil, macadamia nut oil, coconut oil and grassfed organic ghee. Lots of fresh pineapple and fresh berries. Some dried fruit (especially dried cherries) here and there.
Except for some fruit and rice, it sounds like he was eating ketogenically.
Jocelyn Campbell wrote:Paul's standby foods when I wasn't cooking have been plain whole milk yogurt with jam (usually fruit juice sweetened) and berries on top (somehow this has been working for him); these Forager chips that have veggies as the main ingredients, and a Kite Hill brand almond milk chive dip (amazingly simple, whole foods ingredients for a vegan "cheese!"). I usually try to expand the dip by at least double with minced, "safe" veggies: celery, radishes, green onion, etc. And have carrot sticks handy to use in place of chips some of the time. Oh, and maybe there was a "cherry pie" larabar here or there.
Any vegan, vegetarian or omnivore debates aside, all-in-all I think most might agree Paul was eating a fairly healthy diet! (I was damn sure working hard at it!)
Jocelyn Campbell wrote:
I'm okay if Paul wants to stay vegetarian, or go even more vegan, that's no biggie. We're still figuring out what works best to keep him pain free and healthy, so we'll be optimizing as we stumble along.
Yay to the pain free!!
Anne Miller wrote:I really like the information at Mayo Clinic:
Fats. Cut back on saturated fats from red meats, fatty poultry and high-fat dairy products.
Proteins. Limit daily proteins from lean meat, fish and poultry to 4 to 6 ounces (113 to 170 grams). Add protein to your diet with low-fat or fat-free dairy products, such as low-fat yogurt or skim milk, which are associated with reduced uric acid levels.
Organ and glandular meats. Avoid meats such as liver, kidney and sweetbreads, which have high purine levels and contribute to high blood levels of uric acid.
Selected seafood. Avoid the following types of seafood, which are higher in purines than others: anchovies, herring, sardines, mussels, scallops, trout, haddock, mackerel and tuna."
It has been hard for me to adjust my diet to lower meat consumption since many times all I ate was meat. I read somewhere that if you want to eat meat then over compensate with more vegetables. So what I am doing is eating a two cup salad made with 5 different vegetables (1/2 Cup each more or less) and then slowly decreasing my meat intake. Let say I was eating a 4 oz serving normally so then I went to 3 oz. for a week or two. Then to 2 oz., then 1 oz. I am probably now at the one ounce stage.
" Eat more fresh vegetables (and fruits with low fructose levels): higher intake of Vitamin C may help control uric acid levels."
I also read somewhere that if you want to eat high purine vegetables then limit them to no more than a 1/2 C serving 5 times a week.