I just joined after reading Mac a bees statements and the replies. I am in my 8th decade. Here is my input: in 1950 my Alhambra High School chemistry instructor Miller assigned us subjects for Term Papers. I chose static electricity and its possible uses. He turned me down, saying it was nonsense. I then chose the Periodic Chart and its possible expansion encompassing undiscovered elements. He told me it was okay but a waste of time as all the elements had been discovered. He was serious. I was young. A couple of years later, I thought it would be great if I could put a radio inside of a hat, like a football helmet. This was before Sony invaded the scene. Another: roll bars for cars and trucks, not just race cars. Most everyone thought it nonsense, not practical. The point is this: we are, as individuals, each a vortex that looks out onto the universe that is, was and ever will be. From time to time we "think of" what could manifest, as if it were "new'. . Since we all come from the same source of light energy, what we think of can be. What is often unknown is how to get there. As a species, we have accumulated data but not all data. It is frequently stated, as Dave Turpin points out, you cannot change the laws of physics; you cannot create energy out of nothing; you can, as Dave Livingston points out, convert it with certain resultant loses BUT that assumes we know everything, which we do not. Our journey within our known universe is to discover new approaches, and in Mac a bees case, curiosity and investigation to unleashing and utilizing water wheel energy. He may appear to be wrong according to what we know presently BUT he is spot-on for turning on the searchlight and looking. It is the journey that counts. In that journey, as often occurs, an oblique direction, is even accidentally taken, and voila! a new avenue is opened up, for example x & y extending into infinity can actually be imagined to be looped back and we have 3D images on two dimensional screens. Not possible, right? Well, we have TV's that do that. Knowledge is NOT finite. It is infinite and expanding exponentially. Let us go forward into the expanse with joy and insatiable experimentation, especially in renewable energy. For example, all the naysayers say photosynthesis cannot produce sufficient electricity. Really? Okay, don't poke around there, go drink a beer and know all has been done and there is nothing more. Realize, the earth for millions of years has been using the green stuff very effectively. And, as for static electricity? Naw…nothing like nano technology or binary language will ever exist, right? jp
I would like to point out that a water wheel will not turn at exactly the same speed all the time, so a DC set-up is your only alternative. I like a good treadmill or hospital bed motor.
I ahven't read through all the replies, but I read Perpetual Motion Machine, which this is not. The reason some would call it that is because they are thinking how a pump requires energy input, but not thinking about gravity as that input a la hydraulic ram pump.
Good luck and take the nay-sayers with a grain of salt.
Dave Turpin wrote:Speed does matter, otherwise you cannot calculate POWER.
If you would care to share the fundamental properties of your invention, though, I would be happy to help you with the calculations.
Quoted this one of the many because of a similar but different question.
Forgetting the water wheel for a moment and if it were a flywheel (of sorts) and a small solar powered electric motor were driving it, say 1kW -1,25kVa - ~1.35hp (simply a base figure that makes for easy math) what would be the limit on the size of the pump it could drive. A 75mm / 3"?
I know it's a bit like "how long is a piece of string" but following Newtons 2nd the 1kW should be the governing factor? Or not?
this is why i love the internet. its currently 12:18 am and i should have been to bed hours ago yet i just read a five year old thread about a perpetual motion machine... God's speed ladies and gentlemen. God's speed...
Please forgive if I have posted in the wrong place. I am new to this website and I like what I see!
I am having a devil of a time trying to size a generator to my 4 foot water wheel...breast shot 24 cup @ 12" wide and 8" deep.
Can anyone put me in the ballpark on the maximum size of generator to use with my wheel?
I have 9-10 gpm flowing in to the wheel at the 2' level and the cups have been modified to hold a majority of the water until the cup reaches the bottom of the rotation.
At maximum water flow, the wheel turns at 22 rpm with no load on P204 pillow block bearings and a 3/4" keyed shaft. Flow dimenished over night because my inlet screens get clogged with debit and the rpm rate dimenished to around 15.
I have added a 72 tooth, #35 sprocket, to each side of the axle, which couples to a 10 tooth sprocket on the first level of gearing to give me 150 ish rpm.
I can not determine my final gearing until I know which generator I will be using.
Generators are expensive and I do not want to trial and error this as it will be cost prohibitive.
You have 10gpm flow and 2' of head. Converting that to SI units, 10gpm is 0.0006 m^3/s, and 2' is about .6 meter. Lets use 100% for efficiency just to get an idea... When I plug those values into the calculator I get .0035 kw or 3.5 watts. So basically, after losses, there is no meaningful power available. You could probably use it to spin a little hobby motor and have it light up a couple of LEDs. Ideally you would want a permanent magnet brushed DC motor that is low RPM. One of those old-school bike headlamps that rests against the wheel might be a good match.
Yeah, I would look at it as a learning opportunity. To put this amount of power in perspective, a single AA battery holds something like 3 watthours. So assuming you can get half of the available power, it will take 2 hours to charge a AA battery.
Is there a site with more water flow, or a way to tap into the source higher up to generate more head? The fact that hydro runs 24/7 does really add up, but I sort of think anything less than about 20 watts is going to be hard to justify spending much money on. Then again, if it is close to the batteries (I had to run 500 feet of 10ga wire to get access to my stream) or if you like it just as lawnart, then there is no reason not to do it.
Anyway, keep me posted, and I would love to see a picture of your setup.
There is only 30 inches of fall across my property. I can't raise the water any higher because a culvert for the residential road is in line with my property.
I do have a 2" ram pump that I can use to make the wheel over shot but I lose a great deal of flow from my breast shot feed line and there is little if any gain in rpms. The gain in height is countered by the loss of flow...
I am going to try an experimental siphon to increase water flow...I have my doubts though. I know that, generally, the output of a siphon has to be lower than the water level of the pick up end. However, some of the Greek and Roman devices I have seen indicates that a siphon may work if the line from the water to highest point is short, and small, while the down slope part of the line is longer and larger in diameter. I figure that the weight of the water on the long side will create more suction than the weight on the short side and keep the siphon flowing. Make sense? Or am I wasting my time? I am not educated or smart enough to do the math to prove my thoughts but I do have 20 years experience with aircraft hydraulics and 20 more watching and studying alternative power. I think it is worth a shot and will be reasonably cheap enough to try.
My stream runs enough water to fully flow trough a 1 ft pipe. If I could capture half of that, the water wheel would probably spin off the bearings. LOL.
BTW, I tested my brushed DC motor and only got 3.5 vdc with my 1500 rpm drill...believe I will look for something else in the 12 volt + range.
The wheel has been yard art for many years. I thought I might be able to use it for backup power but my thoughts are dashing.
My ram pump, 1.14 gpm, fills up my 100 gallon pond about 12 times a day. The pond is about 6 feet above creek level. I suppose I could bell siphon the pond to feed the wheel intermittently...not motivated or convinced this is worth while.
I will keep hacking away with it until I get something workable...or go broke / die trying. LOL.
Appreciate your interest and input...will take more pics after reinstalling the geared wheel.
Yeah, you are correct, a ram pump would in fact make things worse.
If I am understanding what you are saying, it sounds like you are just diverting a part of your stream through a PVC pipeline to drive your wheel, and you are thinking of siphoning more water to the wheel? A siphon will still flow even if there is a point in the line that is higher than the intake. Two things will dictate how much water flows through your siphon: the height difference between inflow and outflow, and the resistance of the pipe. For a given head, a large pipe will flow more water. Changing pipe size partway through the line will not have any effect except for reducing the drag in the larger section.
A water wheel will only spin (nearly) as fast as the water hitting it (and the water will only travel as fast as the slope it is pouring down will allow). Applying more water to the wheel would give you more power, but you do not have to worry about the wheel spinning apart unless you also increased the pressure.
IF the stream has considerably more water, AND you can route it so you have the maximum drop occuring right at the wheel (using a culvert or ditch or some sort of raised flume), then you might be able to bank on enough power to run a few lights, and power a laptop or something like that.
As for the generator - DC motors spin faster as the voltage increases, and consequently produce more voltage as the speed you turn it increases. This relationship can be changed by how the windings are done inside the motor. You will probably want to find a motor that was designed to spin at fairly low RPMS. Also, a permanent magnet motor is going to be a better generator than a series wound motor (where the stationary magnetic field is being created by an electromagnet - as creating this field will rob you of some of the power).
Yes, I have only diverted part of the stream with a dual screened intake connected to 4" corrugated line on the pond side. The line is buried in a kind of sideways question mark formation and connects to a sediment (sump) tank next to my wheel. The formation of the line pushes enough water to feed the wheel or my RAM pump.
In hind sight, PVC would have been a better choice since laminar flow would be more likely. Oh well, the line I am using has been in for 14 years. I have to snake it a couple of times a year to get the sediment out.
Truth be known, the water wheel set up came after my RAM pump system...the drive pipe serves dual purposes to keep costs down. If the siphon trick works good enough, I will use the excess water from the RAM whenever the RAM is not in use (which is most of the time). I only use it to water the garden.
Next steps are to finish painting my wheel and reinstalling it. Then I am going to try the siphon method to see if I can get increased flow to the top of the wheel. Meanwhile, I will continue to try and find a low cogging, low rpm, continuous duty PMG.
Here's a story for you!
I thought the my major problem was going to be getting the CREEK (14000gpm) to turn my wheel fast enough to produce power. Wrong answer.
Wheel turns from 6RPM to 12RPM depending on what my Midnite Classic 250 has as a MPPT.
I have a gear ratio of 35 - 1 so, if my wheel is turning at 10 RPM, my PMA is spinning at 350RPM. Peak RPM is 380 for 120vac, rectified I get 227VDC out of my rectifier into the Midnite Classic 250.
Problem is, very low current.
I'm charging 14kwh battery bank of Nisson Leaf Li-ion batteries that have a 30a optimal charge current and I am getting 1 - 2amps in! 1 can pull 1500wstts for 8.25 hours out of my batteries, but then at 1 -2amps in, it takes 5days to bring the batteries up to the 58.8vdc full charge!
This is the 3rd PMG, 2 MPPT charge controller, 3rd set of batteries L16S, Deep Cycle lead acid 12vdc in series parallel (2banks) for 48vdc(58.8vdc) new 14kwh Li-ion batteries.
I AM AT A TOTAL LOSS, AM I AM AN ELECTRONICS INSTRUCTOR AND TECHNICIAN WITH 30+ YEARS OF EXPERIENCE!
Midnite Classic has said they think their unit is working properly, so don't bother calling back.
I won't let this thing beat me, but right now I need some help!
Hang in there Gunny! It is a learning experience most of all.
I am glad to see others persisting at this.
Being an electrical guru, I am sure you have considered that low amps is a result of wire size and the number of windings in the generator. I would say RPMs, but you have the flow. The charge controller could be oversized too I suppose.
How big is your wheel? What style is it? What is the cup capacity?
What is your RPMs without the electrical system connected?
What type of generator do you use?
Good luck! If you find the magic combination, I'd like to know. Thanks.