Garden From Scratch - ALL ADVICE WELCOME!

G Prentice wrote:

Jonathan Cole wrote:One other thing to consider is that trees don't necessarily have to be tree shaped. There's a lot of options around training them. For instance, training you plum as a fan in front of the fence by the stairs (so the south-facing side if I am reading the plans right) would provide fruit and keep it flatter to the fence. That might then give you space for another tree where you had the possible tree marked, while ensuring your plum gets lots of sunshine and produces easily accessible fruit.

The current possible tree location may also shade the concrete area you were considering for a greenhouse, so keep that in mind. Will be more or less of an issue depending on the type of tree (so how dense the crown is), the height and the way you prune it.

Yes, I need to think about the location of the tree-shaped trees carefully to avoid too much shading. The possible location marked on the diagram is roughly where I was thinking of having a tree-shaped tree (the biggest tree in the garden), but I definitely intend to have trained/espalier trees and shrubs elsewhere - especially along the left-hand fence. I'm hoping that I'll get good crops of fruit on that side as it gets the most light. I will also have some trees/shrubs away from the fence around the rest of the garden, but I'll either choose small varieties or they'll be pruned to avoid them getting too high. I haven't planned the forest garden layers in any detail yet - I'm currently thinking about where I want the seating areas and pond to be, and view lines from my flat's windows.

Popping in to plug Anna Ralph's book Grow a Little Fruit Tree - great information about keeping trees small.

Unrelatedly, I think the nook in the corner would indeed make a very nice little water feature.  I don't know that you need a fountain if the plants are well-balanced.  (I don't have a pond, though I'm digging one.  Mine will be bigger than yours and I'm hoping to keep it algae-free though plants alone, fingers crossed.)  If you do, and a solar fountain doesn't work out, would it make sense to get a pluggable one + a big rechargeable battery?  I have an earlier version of this: https://www.goalzero.com/shop/portable-power/goal-zero-yeti-200x/ which is no trouble to pack back and forth to the allotment and thus would be super easy for you to pack across the garden.  I'm not sure if a fountain needs to run every day for aeration, though.

While you're deciding what to do with it, I would plant some nice trailing nasturtiums down the side, as that white is a bit blinding.  Nasturtiums are easy to grow, often self-seed, and are pretty and tasty!

Morfydd St. Clair wrote:

G Prentice wrote:

Jonathan Cole wrote:One other thing to consider is that trees don't necessarily have to be tree shaped. There's a lot of options around training them. For instance, training you plum as a fan in front of the fence by the stairs (so the south-facing side if I am reading the plans right) would provide fruit and keep it flatter to the fence. That might then give you space for another tree where you had the possible tree marked, while ensuring your plum gets lots of sunshine and produces easily accessible fruit.

The current possible tree location may also shade the concrete area you were considering for a greenhouse, so keep that in mind. Will be more or less of an issue depending on the type of tree (so how dense the crown is), the height and the way you prune it.

Yes, I need to think about the location of the tree-shaped trees carefully to avoid too much shading. The possible location marked on the diagram is roughly where I was thinking of having a tree-shaped tree (the biggest tree in the garden), but I definitely intend to have trained/espalier trees and shrubs elsewhere - especially along the left-hand fence. I'm hoping that I'll get good crops of fruit on that side as it gets the most light. I will also have some trees/shrubs away from the fence around the rest of the garden, but I'll either choose small varieties or they'll be pruned to avoid them getting too high. I haven't planned the forest garden layers in any detail yet - I'm currently thinking about where I want the seating areas and pond to be, and view lines from my flat's windows.

Popping in to plug Anna Ralph's book Grow a Little Fruit Tree - great information about keeping trees small.

Unrelatedly, I think the nook in the corner would indeed make a very nice little water feature.  I don't know that you need a fountain if the plants are well-balanced.  (I don't have a pond, though I'm digging one.  Mine will be bigger than yours and I'm hoping to keep it algae-free though plants alone, fingers crossed.)  If you do, and a solar fountain doesn't work out, would it make sense to get a pluggable one + a big rechargeable battery?  I have an earlier version of this: https://www.goalzero.com/shop/portable-power/goal-zero-yeti-200x/ which is no trouble to pack back and forth to the allotment and thus would be super easy for you to pack across the garden.  I'm not sure if a fountain needs to run every day for aeration, though.

While you're deciding what to do with it, I would plant some nice trailing nasturtiums down the side, as that white is a bit blinding.  Nasturtiums are easy to grow, often self-seed, and are pretty and tasty!

Thanks, I'll definitely check out the book! I had also decided to put water in the corner flower bed. It will be a sort of mini pond, and then I'll have a larger pond in the main part of the garden. Still not sure about a water feature with a pump etc. Hopefully, it'll come to me whilst working on the larger design for the garden.

Hi everyone,

I've just posted an update and lots of questions about soil here: https://permies.com/t/160669/Confused-soil-PH-structure#1258251 as I've been doing soil testing. All comments very welcome as I'm a bit unsure about what to do next...

Trying to make these images appear.  Fingers crossed.

It looks beautiful.

However I have a some concerns.

1. Are you sure you can modify the stairs? The difference in high is too much for descending in straight line. You may close the staircase, in fact it would add value to temperature control of your house with well placed windows.
2. The bee garden looks difficult to manage. Once your herbs and bushes are grown, you won't be able to tend those plants that are farther from the walkway.
3. Is it ok to have your spaliered tree against the wooden wall? I remember you said some section of that wall was in need of fixing. I would think that the wall have to last at least as much as the tree.

I think you must be replying to the posted pictures?  It's just a concept that can be inspiring to the owner, maybe.  And your concerns are important.

I recall the fence coming apart too.  If he did want to espalier fruit trees but not ON the rickety fence, it'd just take metal posts or wire trellis system to carry the weight in front of the fence.  They could be separate with no problem.  Otherwise, you're right!

The stairs . . .well, if I lived there, I would want to see the greenery from a window and also bring in the light.  Watching the birds and squirrels is a pleasure to me, but you wouldn't be able to see anything with existing back door area.  The picture is just to show it all opened up in some way.  There may be many other ways to accomplish a well lighted view, but I picked what I'd talk to a contractor about if it were my home.  Maybe a glass door and a deck would work just the same, though, and would be far more affordable.  In closing that stair case would most certainly warm up the house, but would you do it?  Yes, you could add a glass wall enclosure on the stairs, but it still closes everything off.  All I know is that when I did the same thing in a home I had centuries ago, it was instant heaven and worth every dime.  When it went on the market, it sold in 7 days.  Naturally, I have no idea what rooms are at the back door, so all of it is a guess.

The bee garden is also for the butterflies and birds.  Little habitat enclosures and bird bath would be there, but you are correct that if you wanted to prune, you'd have to muddy your knees like you would in an old fashioned English garden. This is England, though, so he's no stranger to mud.

Thank you for your honest opinion!

Hello everyone,

I've been quiet for ages because my garden has just been covered in cardboard  - and currently still is (see attached photo). I can confirm that killing a grass lawn takes a lot of determination (and a lot of cardboard because it disintegrates and worms eat it - so you need to keep adding to it regularly). I would give myself a 5 or 6 out of 10 for consistency with replenishing the cardboard, so I definitely won't have killed all the grass when I pull up the cardboard, but hopefully I'll have more options for covers crops than if I hadn't tried at all. The bramble and bindweed is another story (I'll dig out what I can once the cardboard comes up - hopefully I've weakened them with the mulch cover).

I've chosen the location of an outhouse and a seating/decking area and am now trying to decide on which trees to plant and where. If I choose relatively small trees I think I can have two - in opposite diagonal corners. I'll also have one even smaller tree on the sunny left side of the garden in the middle. I'll put shrubs and herbacious plants everywhere else - although a large chunk of the garden will be a pond/wetland area.

Here are the tree species that I'm considering (and why) - comments welcome as no final decisions made yet:

Big Tree 1 (sunny corner): Fig tree (I think the leaves are beautiful and the fruit will be useful - they also seem to grow well here on the south coast of England)
Big Tree 2 (less sunny corner): Mulberry tree (Nice fruit and edible leaves. I will need to prune it a bit to control the size and also not sure if it will fruit much as it won't be on the sunniest side of the garden?)
Smaller Tree: Trifoliate orange (slightly strange but interesting looking tree, source of pectin for my jams, bee plant, doesn't grow too quickly or too big)

Any thoughts on any or all of the above? I chose the fig tree and trifoliate orange partly to compliment the large cabbage tree - which gives the garden a slightly 'exotic'/non-native starting point, but I intend to choose the shrubs and other plants for their wildlife value (the fig and mulberry aren't strong on the wildlife scale in the UK - nor is the trifoliate orange, but it's good for bees apparently).

One other thing... in previous posts I discussed having to dig the garden over once when I remove the cardboard to deal with soil compaction. Will the digging just bring up loads of weed seeds in the soil and cancel out the benefit of me covering the garden with cardboard for 6 months? If yes, does anyone think i would be better off not digging and instead just deal with any compaction issues more slowly with plant roots over the next few years?

Ooh I'm happy you gave us the update!!
So, I grow all three of your trees. Good for you on choosing things that are known to grow in your area. Keep in mind the mulberry can and should be pruned, and it will help it produce fruit. People have some strong opinions about it, but I have a yard like yours and I've been experimenting with hard pruning my mulberries and I'm really happy with the results.
Same thing goes for the figs, a judicious pruning helps (not sure if it will die back every year in your environment, but you can always ask people nearby who have them).

Keep up the good work on the cardboard, you can always also just start a bit at a time.

Edited to add: i'd not worry too much about the weed seeds. There will always be weeds. You'll mulch to impede them as you can, in my opinion it's a shame to wait another year to establish (and enjoy) your garden.

Chris McCullough wrote:Trying to make these images appear.  Fingers crossed.

Wow, impressive! Sorry, I've only just seen this!

The top photo of my building probably wouldn't work because the inside of my flat isn't on the same level as the garden, but your image does show the potential for me digging out a basement! I think I'll need to save up some money before that's an option, though My plans for an outhouse on the same level as the garden is my workaround in the meantime.

I love the bottom image of the garden plants. I'll definitely take some inspiration from that. The inclusion of an outhouse, seating area and fairly large pond obviously limits the space for planting to some extent, but I'll post a draft of my design here soon for you all to see. I'll need planning permission for the outhouse, so i'm focussing on that at the moment - along with the tree selections. I hope to start thinking about the other plants soon, though.

Mulberries are very dirty, make sure the fruit falls on ground and not over pathways.

I'd choose a fruit tree based on what I love to eat that are not wonderful when bought at the supermarket. Figs and mulberries certainly apply. I miss eating plums ripen in the tree, but I don't know if they grow well in your location.

Glad you enjoyed the mock ups.  Can you post a picture from INSIDE your house looking out?  Just curious.

I'm not sure about a pond in such a small space, but a fountain would be nice.  It probably depends on what the pond is going to do for you and for the garden, aside from mosquitoes.
And what is an "outhouse?"  Like the ones with a moon cut out in the door?  A potting shed?  Post a picture, please.  

Now for some real EASY solutions for you:

                         *  https://agrilifeextension.tamu.edu/library/gardening/soil-solarization/

                         *  https://www.nrdc.org/stories/how-combat-weeds-gently?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI66yD3srN8gIVdAnnCh0bigsJEAAYAiAAEgLaN_D_BwE

                         *  https://www.hgtv.com/outdoors/gardens/planting-and-maintenance/make-your-own-natural-weed-killer

Another inspiration:  why not plunk some really tall rebar poles against the wrought iron back fence and grow some lovely honeysuckle, jasmine, or clematis  between the poles.  They'll climb right up and give you and your neighbors some color, attracting little insets to a happy life.  That cardboard makes me crazy.  I applaud you in your commitment!!!

Thanks for the links!

I'm at work today so can't take the photo, but basically I can only see the left side of the garden easily from my kitchen window. i'm thinking carefully about what to plant on that side as it's what I'll see the most during the winter. i think I'll put more evergreen plants on that side as UK winter gardens can look quite sad when all the leaves have fallen off the deciduous plants.

An outhouse is just something to sit in and enjoy the garden even when it's raining. They are sometimes called summerhouses here - they're like glorified sheds with windows in the front wall so that you can see the garden. There's no limit on what you can spend on outhouses, but even the cheapest ones are around £1000, and my budget can't stretch to much more.

Ponds are probably the number one thing that you can include in a garden for wildlife - even a washing-up bowl-sized pond can be surprisingly useful for wildlife (but mine will be quite a lot bigger than that). Perhaps mosquitoes are more of a consideration in your part of the world. We do get them here but not usually in large numbers (will need to keep it in mind as global warming heats up our climate here, though).

I'm keen to include climbers in the garden, but it won't be on the end side of the garden - at least not any higher than the trellis that is already there. My neighbour on the other side of the fence gets all of his sunlight via my garden, so he wouldn't be very happy if I put lots of tall plants along that edge of the garden. Privacy isn't too much of an issue between us anyway because the level of his garden is 1-2m lower than mine.

Thank you for the clarification about the outhouse.  Funny.  

Could you make a pergola or shaded area off the back door stoop area so that it takes up less garden space and allows for outdoor activities/lounging and a more complete view of the garden?  Maybe a picture window in the kitchen would be nice for a better view from inside.  Less expense all around (I think).

What size pond did you have in mind?  Did you know you can have a floating  vegetable garden and also have plants that filter the pond water naturally?  Are you thinking about goldfish or Koi?  Turtles?  Fountain?  I would think that since you are in England, all you'd have to do is dig a hole and the rainfall would take care of the rest!  You probably don't know what a drought is, right?

Which direction is your back door facing

I don't think I'll make any changes to the building in the near future - it's too expensive and I also don't own the building so the process of getting permission for the changes would be lengthy.

Haven't decided on the pond size yet, but it will actually be a number of smallish ponds rather than one large pond. I need to finalise the plans for the outhosue and decking area before I think about the other details. Hoping to plant the trees this autumn, though.

The PERFECT outhouse for you!

Sorry, Attachments option only came up after I posted the last text.

I think you're overestimating how big my garden is! But I like the idea of planting on the roof of the outhouse...

Chris McCullough wrote:Sorry, Attachments option only came up after I posted the last text.

Hi everyone,

So, this autumn/winter I'll be concentrating on getting the hedging plants, canopy trees and shrubs planted. I won't have time to plan the herb layer properly and want to work on paths and seating areas before doing too much on that front. But in the meantime, I want to sow temporary-ish cover crops (species that will persist for 1-2 years) to try and stop the couch grass taking over again. You might remember that my garden has been covered in cardboard for about 9 months to try and kill the couch grass, but after digging various holes to plant trees and remove rubble, I've realised that the couch grass route network is quite extensive. However, I've disturbed the soil so much recently that there isn't currently any visible grass - the garden is bare soil, leftover sections of cardboard and a pond.

Any suggestions as to cover crops that I could sow from seed now, would start growing quickly now, look relatively nice and have some sort of beneficial wildlife value, help improve/protect the soil in some way and are not too difficult to get rid of if/when I decide that I don't want them anymore (I would probably start interplanting into them when I've designed the herb layer rather than trying to get rid of them all in one go)? Ideally, I'd like to find 3 or 4 cover crops that I can sow from seed now in a mix - rather than just one cover crop which migh be a bit boring.

I don't know if any superstar cover crops which can do all/most of the above exist, but if you know of any please let me know! Finding candidates that will start growing now (rather than in spring) might be especially difficult? I'm pretty sure the grass will come back with a vengeance soon and I'd rather not resort to cardboard again - partly because I might not have found time to design the herb layer by spring, and so I'd like something nicer to look at than cardboard that will also suppress the grass to some extent.

I'm going to try a native prairy seed mix in my plot, since it looks like the plants that are volunteering are from this biome. Zero maintenance.

Please add a pond!!! The more the merrier for critters as well as predators keeping your pests down!!!
Ponds poo and organic matter are the things to focus on to get started in my opinion!

[quote=oliver kellie]Please add a pond!!! The more the merrier for critters as well as predators keeping your pests down!!!
Ponds poo and organic matter are the things to focus on to get started in my opinion!
[/quote]

The pond is almost finished (haven't planted the margins yet, but the pond itself is done)! We've had a wet autumn and it has already filled with rainwater :)

OMG!  I think this would be a terrific growing fence for you!  See https://www.grasscrete.com/docs/projects/walls.html