Torah prohibition on Mixing Seeds.

Joshua Myrvaagnes wrote:I wonder how they even had all these questions in like 1490 (I think that's when the Mishnah was written)?

Tina Paxton wrote:Well, you know, there was this other Rabbi around 30-ish AD who was a bit radical in his views of the Talmud.

Cj Verde wrote:

Tina Paxton wrote:Well, you know, there was this other Rabbi around 30-ish AD who was a bit radical in his views of the Talmud.

Yes, but that would/should be a separate thread.

Jack Spirko thinks people could make a good living convincing Churches to "permify" their grounds. The same concepts apply to Jewish congregations.

This particular thread is about an interesting problem for very religious Jews. For sure there are loop holes but none of them involve "yashua hamashiach."

Joshua Myrvaagnes wrote:No wonder they then had to write the Gemarah. The Interpretation of the Interpretation of the Torah. 2 billion pages long, no index.

The prohibition applies to the sowing together of two kinds of grains if they are regarded as belonging to different species (see below), or of grain and legume, as well as of other edible plants. A lenient ruling was given regarding vegetables, which were customarily sown in small beds, and it was permitted to sow five species at specified distances from one another in a bed one cubit square and with variations even 13 species (Kil. 3:l). According to most authorities, it is obligatory to separate fields sown with different species by the space of a rova (104 square cubits) or of three furrows (two cubits). In the opinion of some commentators, including Solomon Sirillio and Elijah Gaon of Vilna, the measures mentioned in the Mishnah (Kil. 2:6–10) refer to the size of the plot near which a different kind may be sown (and not to the space by which they must be separated), since plots of this size and larger have the appearance of separate fields, and there is no fear that they may be thought to have been planted indiscriminately, nor is there any risk that the different species will derive sustenance from one another. The prohibition of mixed seeds applies only in Ereẓ Israel, while the prohibitions of the other mixed species are of universal application (Kid. 39a).

Dan Grubbs wrote:

...nor is there any risk that the different species will derive sustenance from one another.

B.E. Ward wrote:Maybe finding a local Chabad house would be a good start?

Cj Verde wrote:I'm going to have to mulled this one over for a while. There are lots of prohibitions against all kinds of mixing and yet... Jews have been "mixing" with other cultures for 3000 years. I guess the key is how to mix cultures, people, plants, and remain distinct individuals.

Cj Verde wrote:

B.E. Ward wrote:Maybe finding a local Chabad house would be a good start?

I think that's a bad place to start. Although they have embraced some new technology like computers/mobile phones they are still dressing like the height of fashion in Poland during the 1700s.

It's also not your best leverage point. What's that Mollisonian quote? The best leverage point will give you the most change for the least effort? I think they'd be your worst leverage point.

Also, it sound like you are probably not actually a Jew, certainly in their eyes, and that could be a real sticking point.

I really don't think this law is going to get in the way of a good permaculture plan for a synagogue. Are you familiar with the Jubilee_(biblical) concept? I once asked my Rabbi how this could have possibly worked and he said there was no indication this law was followed, and certainly not today. It would throw all real estate transactions in Israel into chaos.

Cj Verde wrote:

B.E. Ward wrote:Maybe finding a local Chabad house would be a good start?

I think that's a bad place to start. Although they have embraced some new technology like computers/mobile phones they are still dressing like the height of fashion in Poland during the 1700s.

It's also not your best leverage point. What's that Mollisonian quote? The best leverage point will give you the most change for the least effort? I think they'd be your worst leverage point.

Also, it sound like you are probably not actually a Jew, certainly in their eyes, and that could be a real sticking point.

B.E. Ward wrote:

Cj Verde wrote:
My own interests lie in trying to help Orthodox Christian parishes move towards more permaculture. We clearly don't have the same halachic requirements, but our problems have more to do with limited resources and education.

I second that regarding the limited resources....I'd love to "permify" my church but we are a very small and very poor church and at least 2/3 of the regulars are elderly.... That doesn't stop me from looking at the church & parsonage grounds and dreaming of what it could be and the amount of food it could produce for our folks...

Tina Paxton wrote:
I second that regarding the limited resources....I'd love to "permify" my church but we are a very small and very poor church and at least 2/3 of the regulars are elderly.... That doesn't stop me from looking at the church & parsonage grounds and dreaming of what it could be and the amount of food it could produce for our folks...

B.E. Ward wrote:
To be clear, my suggestion to Joshua was that *he* visit a Chabad house. Seeing as how he's Jewish and attempting to satisfy this mitzvah (or at least have it interpreted to his satisfaction), and seeing as how Chabad is essentially an 'evangelical' Jewish organization with deep and widespread roots I figure the two might be a good match. I'm also not sure what their dress has much to do with anything.. they're just attempting to do what G-d (I write it like that out of respect to them) wants them to.

Cj Verde wrote:
I do think religious buildings/ground are great public places that could/should have permaculture plans but maybe it's time to start a new thread to cross pollinate ideas. I have no idea what forum that would go in.

Tina Paxton wrote:

Cj Verde wrote:
I do think religious buildings/ground are great public places that could/should have permaculture plans but maybe it's time to start a new thread to cross pollinate ideas. I have no idea what forum that would go in.

Perhaps it can go in the Permaculture forum?

Cj Verde wrote:

Tina Paxton wrote:

Cj Verde wrote:
I do think religious buildings/ground are great public places that could/should have permaculture plans but maybe it's time to start a new thread to cross pollinate ideas. I have no idea what forum that would go in.

Perhaps it can go in the Permaculture forum?

Either there or Urban or Community. I say Urban because even in the rural area where I live, Houses of worship are in town.

You could start a thread in any of those forums and a moderator will move it or cross link it if they think it's appropriate.

Varina Lakewood wrote:It's interesting. I looked up that verse in one of the fairly accurate more modern versions of the Bible.  It read: "Do not plant two crops in your vineyard, or both will be ruined."
Sounds like crossbreeding to me. If you think about it, it makes sense, because the FIRST thing you learn when you check into breeding plants is that most hybrids are weaker and less desirable than the parent crops, not only that, but they don't come true to seed. (Hard to remember, I guess, when we have so many successful hybrids on the market, but actually quite true.) If you interplanted all your seed crop and the seed came out hybrid...well, they say it takes 8 generations of plants to successfully stabilize a hybrid into an OP variety. In the meantime, if that was your main food crop, you could starve to death. If it was your main cash crop, you would lose money and customers, and put yourself in a bad spot. Even if neither of these was true, you'd still have lost the true heirloom strains that had been in your family for generations, which would be a different kind of tragedy.

Leviticus 19:11Ye shall not steal, neither deal falsely, neither lie one to another. 12And ye shall not swear by my name falsely, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD.

13 Thou shalt not defraud thy neighbour, neither rob him: the wages of him that is hired shall not abide with thee all night until the morning. 14Thou shalt not curse the deaf, nor put a stumblingblock before the blind, but shalt fear thy God: I am the LORD.

15 Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honour the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour. 16 Thou shalt not go up and down as a talebearer among thy people: neither shalt thou stand against the blood of thy neighbour: I am the LORD.

17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him. 18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

Leviticus 19:19 Ye shall keep my statutes. Thou shalt not let thy cattle gender with a diverse kind: thou shalt not sow thy field with mingled seed: neither shall a garment mingled of linen and woollen come upon thee.

R White wrote:
So it may be less a matter of agriculture/technical question than a matter of business ethics and practices that start in production of the commodities.

wayne stephen wrote: I like what Lewis Black has to say about Christians interpreting the Torah. "You never see a Rabbi on TV interpreting the New Testament  , do you ! ".  

Nick Kitchener wrote:Interesting topic, and something that has crossed my mind a few times.

On the surface, these laws do seem to contradict what is happening in the natural world. In situations like this, the best practice is to look at the interpretation of the law and re assess it. The number of rules (interpretations of scripture by man) far outweigh the actual rules God laid down, and many of these were unfortunately made with alternative motives in mind.

The context of a prohibition on mixing seed I believe comes from Genesis 6. When the watchers descended on Mt. Hermon, they imparted certain knowledge to mankind, one of which is referred to as "the cutting of roots". This is generally interpreted as pharmakea, as it is mentioned in the same sentence as enchantments in the book of Enoch. However, a literal interpretation of this applies equally well to grafting.

The whole action by the watchers was an attempt to draw mankind away from God, and corrupt the human genome. With a corrupted genome, it would be impossible for Eve's seed to crush the head of the serpent as prophesied by God in the garden. If the prophesy could not come to pass then the word of God is fallible. As Genesis 6 points out, they succeeded in corrupting the seed, and it took the flood to cleanse not only the human genome but the genomes of the animals too. Following the flood, there was a huge effort to wipe out the nephilim tribes that contained remnants of this genetic corruption in their population and that of their livestock.

With this in mind, I can see why the Levitical laws regarding  "mixing seed of different types" was enacted, and I strongly believe that this doesn't apply to polycultures because genetic material is not altered or mixed. You aren't "mixing seed", but rather cohabiting plants IMHO. Mixing seed would involve artificial genetic modification, hybridisation that doesn't occur in nature, and grafting.

It wasn't until very recently that our technology has enabled true "mixing of seed", so it's understandable that the religious rules that formed around these scriptures developed the way they did.

Hopefully this sheds a new light on the subject and helps in some way.