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june 2020 kickstarter for wofati greenhouse

 
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Got your back bro! 😎
 
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I think you can be more confident in the demand for this product if you reach out to  David  DuByne creator of the ADAPT 2030 channel on YouTube. Joined "Themtube" 31 Mar 2012 currently with 24,674,048 views

His whole shtick is "Winter is coming" and preparing for the cold of a grand solar minimum.

Negotiate an ad on his channel and gain attention like Alosha did:

 
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Count me in (around the $25 dollar level)!

I am also North Country high water table, so any thoughts/possible approaches based on your experiments would be good.  Some mention of design values for round timber structures would be greatly appreciated. Earth-bermed deer stand, anyone?
 
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I will support it!
 
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I'm in!
 
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The earlybird goodies list is now up to 33 items

https://permies.com/wiki/141443/List-Early-Bird-Goodies-Wofati

The plans, the video and the kickstarter images are being worked on.  

We are gonna do our level best to activate the kickstarter on june 23 at 2pm.   We have talked about possibly pushing the date back, but with this date, this means that the kickstarter finishes on july 23, and we get funds and find out who actually supported the kickstarter on august 6.  So then we can do a frenzied week of design and gathering materials so that construction can begin on august 13.  We think that the construction should take no longer than two weeks, but ... you know ...   comedy ...   So if it takes four weeks that pushes us to September 10.  All-in-all, after a lot of conversations, we really think that we should NOT push back the dates.   We've had this conversation so many times now, we are pretty locked in to june 23.

Okay, if we hit the "go" button on june 23, that means that we need to submit the kickstarter, all ready to do go, on June 16th.   That is just six days away!  So we have a LOT of stuff to nail down in six days!

I think the highest priority right now is the plans.  Not only are those a big part of the video, but also for the primary kickstarter image.  And maybe a couple of bonus images.  

Josiah has a lot of the video created so far.  Once he has the plans, then he just has a few more hours to finish up.   And then we need to do about 20 rounds of video polishing.  

Nicole and Tracy are talking about ideas for the primary image, but they are thinking that with the plans they will better understand what to draw.

Jennifer and I will be working on the budgets and the wording of the kickstarter today.   To get the kickstarter page started so that people can start to look at it, we need the video, the primary image, four text blobs and the rewards.    I hope that we can create the rough kickstarter page the day after tomorrow.

We need to set up the kickback page and the media kit page.  I don't think anybody used our media kit last year, but when we talk to media they want that.   So in the hopes that some media somewhere will talk about us, it is good to have that.

I think we need to make a second video that explains what we will be attempting.


Once the page is up on kickstarter, then we need to do 20 iterations of polishing the kickstarter page and the images.  And then we need to get started on a media rich permies thread for the kickstarter.


What am I forgetting?



 
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Possibly a dumb question, but do kickstarters have to be 4 weeks long?  If it could be shortened to 2-3 weeks maybe you'd get all the same amount of funding while not consuming as much calendar time.
 
paul wheaton
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Mike Haasl wrote:Possibly a dumb question, but do kickstarters have to be 4 weeks long?  If it could be shortened to 2-3 weeks maybe you'd get all the same amount of funding while not consuming as much calendar time.



You can make them one day, if you want.   Or as much as 60 days.

 
paul wheaton
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Here is the first pass at the video.  

What could use improvement?  

What do you think of the music choice?



 
Mike Haasl
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I wonder if the early words about "Experiments about X, experiments about Y, experiments about Z" might sound even better if you said something like "At Wheaton Labs we've done hundreds of experiments, maybe thousands.  We're learning from many experiments with RMHs, ATI, Hugelkulture, etc.  My Patreon peeps want us to shift our priorities and make this be the next one...."

I'm thinking it might help the viewer understand that you don't just do an experiment here or there.  And that the pictures in the video are of things you've done so you have some street cred.  Maybe little words floating around the Allerton Abbey pictures and hugels could convey that without changing the script...
 
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Some cool drawings of what we think the final structure will look like! Thanks, Kyle!
image-(1).png
[Thumbnail for image-(1).png]
image-(5).png
[Thumbnail for image-(5).png]
image-(8).png
[Thumbnail for image-(8).png]
 
Dianne Justeen
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So I had my non-permie husband watch the video and critique it.  I thought it would be better to get input from someone who wasn't already "in the loop".  My thought is that you'll need to walk the line between appealing to the choir, and converting non-believers.

His comments are that he's not really sure of the problem you're trying to solve.  Is it greywater?  What's the problem with greywater in Montana?  Then you go on to talk about the greenhouse but don't explain how the greenhouse is going to fix the greywater problem.  He thinks you need to tie it all together at the end.

I showed him the point in the video where you go into that (0.34) but it was still meaningless to him because you didn't explain how greywater systems work so the bulletpoints weren't helpful.
 
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Just a comment.  You might generate more interest if you had several iterations on your design reflecting various locations/climate conditions.  I would assume you have a gutter to capture rainwater and an internal cistern to store heat.   There is a "Low Tech Magazine" that gets into old fashioned ways to cope with cool climates.  One trick that would apply to a greenhouse is to build a north-side thermal wall to capture warmth (rather than an earthen berm) then espalier fruit trees close to it (on the south side).  Indeed a north wall with rocket stove heat (for those really cold days) built in.  Your design with the earth berm is good but lots of extensive shovel action required.  Perhaps a less laborious approach would be earth packed auto tires like they use for "Earthship Homes."  https://www.earthshipglobal.com/
Good luck.  Jim
Greenfield, MO
 
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paul wheaton wrote:Here is the first pass at the video.  

What could use improvement?  

What do you think of the music choice?





I like it!  Big fist-bump to you and Josiah!

A few observations:
* Yes, I like the music.  I think it could swell/flourish/finish a bit stronger at the end of the video.  Maybe skootch it a bit later, and ramp up the volume subtly?
* I would extend the very end of the video a few more seconds.  When the video ends, the player platform will take the focus and control away from you!
* I'm not a huge fan of the choice of static image before pressing play (what's it called?).  All you see is "No", especially on smaller screens, where the play button is huge and centered.  Idea is ok, but maybe some more engaging word than "No"?  Hmmm.  "Greenhouse with...", "Greenhouse without"?
* I think the pace of the visuals is a little laid-back compared to the (good) urgency of the audio.  I would put in more frequent animation changes.  For example, the sequence at 0:27-0:35 -- what if the podcast comments in the background appeared a blob at a time, then faded when "Now" appears?  What if the Paul "shakes" or jerkily zooms in and out when the Now appears, or changes to a different pose (to show a reaction: surprise, enthusiasm...), or ....    The idea and overall flow is good.   Just maybe more of it.
* I love how the animations, audio, and transition all come together for the gag at about 0:09.   Can you make that happen at least one more time near the end?  Maybe in the area around 1:42 where the list of things the kickstarter would fund needs some explanation and spice anyway.  
* The fan picture at 1:01 is realistic, but a little hard to recognize.  It's kinda dark, blades not contrasty behind the grill, etc.   What about a cartoon fan?  Or maybe a tiny computer fan--I think that could have comic effect.  Or a Peltier stove fan.
* I like the "wipe" transitions.
* Paul promised it would say "give us monies". :)  (also, I like the lengthened ending of those vids.)

Hope any of that helps!  I do think it is perfectly shippable as is!  Great effort.
 
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For those wanting a fleshed out view of the wofati greenhouse, I made some sketches!

Outside View of the Wofati Greenhouse:


Inside View of the Wofati Greenhouse (the lady is probably about 5'4")
 
Kerry Rodgers
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I like the drawings, Nicole!

Should the sketchup and artistic drawings show where the graywater and cleaning plants would be?  Will the bottom of the graywater "tank" be lower than where ground-level is shown?  Will the cleaning plants be tall like reeds?  Would showing those things make the artwork look "more accurate", or "less pretty", or "too messy" ?

Just some thoughts.  I don't have answers in mind.
 
Nicole Alderman
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My husband keeps calling this the "Hobbit Greenhouse." I wonder if that would be a good, easy to understand, fun term for people?
hobbit-Greenhouse-Wofati.jpg
Hobbit Greenhouse?
Hobbit Greenhouse?
 
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Have you heard of Russ Finch, he grows citrus fruit in Nebraska!

I only really know him from this one video. : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZD_3_gsgsnk

If you're getting the earth moving equipments out you could dig some trenches for the ducts.

I've thought of something similar for here in NC.  Here - it would basically just be to keep a few plants going year round. The cool thing about the geothermal is that you can use it to cool in the summer ( It gets hot here in NC )
 
Mike Haasl
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Oooh, can it have a hobbit door?
 
Nicole Alderman
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I don't know if a round door will fit, but maybe an arched door like this would fit, and be hobbity enough:



Maybe as a stretch goal
 
Mike Haasl
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And some of those doors are "round looking" but actually have a rectangular area for the opening bit.
 
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Please forgive me if I'm just dumb, but I cannot find greywater part on presented drawings. When you talk abut it in the video (great one!) I would love to see where greywater enters the structure, what happens to it and how it leaves it (or not to hear about greywater at all, then I would focus on tomatoes). ;)
 
Nicole Alderman
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Richard Gorny wrote:Please forgive me if I'm just dumb, but I cannot find greywater part on presented drawings. When you talk abut it in the video (great one!) I would love to see where greywater enters the structure, what happens to it and how it leaves it (or not to hear about greywater at all, then I would focus on tomatoes). ;)



That's a good question. Maybe the answer is burried somewhere in this thread or in the brainstorming thread. But, I didn't see it, so I didn't know how to draw it. I think it might have something to do with the pipe? But, beyond that, I don't know. I do know we've got Art Ludwig (from Oasis Design author of a multitude of books on grey water, like Builder's Greywater Guide) chiming in. So though we don't have the particulars right now, I'm sure they'll get hammered out!

You make a great point, though. A lot of people don't know about grey water, and there's no real explanation as to what it is or how they'll be incorporating it, so mention of it kind of weakens and detracts from the rest of the video. We don't want people to watch it and think "What's greywater? No idea, sound's weird. Maybe I'll just back away from this weird kickstarter...."
 
Kerry Rodgers
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Jennifer Richardson wrote:Mike, the greywater plants would be in the north (back) bed, not directly under the window. The smaller planter bed under the glass would probably have greens in it or other edibles. We will not be eating the plants grown in the greywater basins.



Have a look in the original thread.   There's not a lot of detail, but there's some like the above.  Sorry I'm on mobile rn, so it's a little too hard to edit links and stuff.
 
paul wheaton
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Clayton this morning suggested the alliteration "Greywater Greenhouse"
 
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Will Staves wrote:Have you heard of Russ Finch, he grows citrus fruit in Nebraska!



Yes.  He uses a huge amount of electricity to pull that off.
 
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Nicole,

I took your lovely drawing and I made some slight design changes - unfortunately rather klunky.   Could you make an updated version that looks nice?
hobbit-greenhouse-wofati-adjusted.jpg
[Thumbnail for hobbit-greenhouse-wofati-adjusted.jpg]
 
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My first thought with "hobbit greenhouse" was "ooooo!  that could be super cool!  I think we could get a lot of attention with that!"   and then the downsides started to pour into my brain...

  - are we gonna get sued?

  - will we end up with 600 people commanding us that we are doing it "wrong"

  - will people gloss over what I think is the most powerful point: truly passive - no fans

            - more people hyper focused on how the door is wrong instead of how the passive stuff is right



 
 
 
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I made a tiny change with the 1 inch black pipe just under the glass ...
hobbit-greenhouse-wofati-adjusted-2.jpg
[Thumbnail for hobbit-greenhouse-wofati-adjusted-2.jpg]
 
paul wheaton
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And then the whole well casing thing ...
hobbit-greenhouse-wofati-adjusted-3.jpg
[Thumbnail for hobbit-greenhouse-wofati-adjusted-3.jpg]
 
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I can probably put the greywater in the model today if I can get an idea of what it looks like and where it goes.

One thing I haven't seen discussed yet is the effect of condensation on the windows.  We've got a relatively warm moist environment, will a fogged up window hinder things?  I don't think it would make it any colder, but might put a damper on any photosynthesis we were hoping for.  At the very least it will be a sign that it's warm inside.
 
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I loved the video -- it was well done -- but I was a bit confused by the ending.  "Do you want us to try?" I think that gives the wrong message, unless the whole point of the video is to solicit a yes/no vote.  But what exactly should the viewer try, anyway?  

I thought this was a kickstarter intro video, to get people to sign up for a kickstarter campaign.  If so, that's the message the video's got to get across -- and by the way, at the end you don't want a question, you want a firm statement of YES, let's do this!  (But be clear on what you want people to do)  

I'm in agreement with Mike Haasl about the beginning, too.  

In teaching and public speaking (and in almost all writing other than fiction) the The Rule of Three is recommended:  tell them what you're going to say, then say it, then tell them what you said.   This helps with learning, remembering, and understanding, particularly with speeches or videos when people must rely on short-term memory.  It's not like with text where someone can readily study a point.  With videos it's a PITA to go back and forth to check out something you missed or didn't understand.  

So a brief overview that gets right to business at the beginning (you might consider the cute written text panels you use later to emphasize your words, but maybe change the motif), then the meat of the video as seen, then the recap statement at the end telling people how to do what you want them to do (support the kickstarter, right?).  

One thing Mike says I'm not in agreement with is the mention of Patreon.  Don't confuse the issue.  People who aren't familiar with creator support get confused about these things.

So to recap [grin] I love the video but I think you could improve it by tacking on an introduction that explains what you want and then a wrap-up at the end that tells people specifically what to do.  If I missed the point of the video as shown, well, that just supports my thoughts here, doesn't it?  
 
Nicole Alderman
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paul wheaton wrote:Nicole,

I took your lovely drawing and I made some slight design changes - unfortunately rather klunky.   Could you make an updated version that looks nice?



Sure! I think I can easily do that. Some quick questions:

The black lines, are those the billboard sheeting envelope?

Does the hill need to be turned to dirt, or can I keep it grassy while drawing the black line through the grass?

What is the material on the top-layer of the greenhouse? I drew an arrow toward it in the attached picture. I'm not quite sure what color and texture to make that.

My first thought with "hobbit greenhouse" was "ooooo!  that could be super cool!  I think we could get a lot of attention with that!"   and then the downsides started to pour into my brain...

 - are we gonna get sued?

 - will we end up with 600 people commanding us that we are doing it "wrong"

 - will people gloss over what I think is the most powerful point: truly passive - no fans

           - more people hyper focused on how the door is wrong instead of how the passive stuff is right



I shared the image on facebook, and it's managed to be shared 80 times (yay!). More people are talking about the size, than about the door. (The only person on facebook who mentioned the door was my friend who's a huge Tolkin fan, and he just said it was a modern hobbit house. He wasn't unhappy about it). The vast majority of people just think it's really cool and are sharing it around.  

I think "Hobbit Greenhouse" instantly gives people an idea what it'll be like, and makes it a lot more accessible than "passive, greywater greenhouse," with passive and grey water being terms most 1 and 2 level people probably don't know about. I know I didn't know about them until I'd been around permies a while! "Hobbit" grabs the attention, and then we can tell them how it's even MORE awesome than just a hobbit greenhouse.

But, yeah, I don't know about the legalities. Is there a copyright on hobbit? Is there even a way to look that up?
hobbit-Greenhouse-Wofati-top-material.jpg
[Thumbnail for hobbit-Greenhouse-Wofati-top-material.jpg]
 
paul wheaton
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Nicole Alderman wrote:The black lines, are those the billboard sheeting envelope?



I have gotten into the habit of calling it "membrane" - because what it is depends on what we are able to get.

 
paul wheaton
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Does the hill need to be turned to dirt, or can I keep it grassy while drawing the black line through the grass?



There will be dirt below the membrane.  Above the membrane there will be dirt and then growies (with roots?) on top of that.  

It would be nice to somehow show that the dirt above the membrane is moist and the dirt below the membrane is dry.   Maybe slightly lighter or darker?

 
paul wheaton
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What is the material on the top-layer of the greenhouse? I drew an arrow toward it in the attached picture. I'm not quite sure what color and texture to make that.



That is a log - viewed from the side of the log.
 
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More people are talking about the size, than about the door.



My guess is that they are saying "It is so very smart of them to do this perfect size."

 
Kerry Rodgers
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Nicole Alderman wrote:But, yeah, I don't know about the legalities. Is there a copyright on hobbit? Is there even a way to look that up?



This crowdsourced answer nicely sums up my general impression of what I've been hearing for years.

And a commenter on that page makes it even blunter:

Honestly the legality matters less than your willingness to fight legal battles with a rich and litigious foe. The Tolkien Estate is famously aggressive in protecting what it sees as its trademarks.

 
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If you're gonna go Middle-Earthy, go all the way. Make it so that anyone (even Aragorn!) gazing into a Palantir sees the following advert.

[Opening shot: slow zoom-in on an unblinking eye]
Hi, I'm Sauron and this is my ninth attempt to lengthen my shadow. I'm bonkers about rings! Rings for Elves! Rings for Dwarves! Rings for Mortal Men! However, my problem throughout the ages has been how to deal with my nemesis, Gandalf The Greywater. Recently I had a discussion with my head Ringwraith, the former Witch King of Angmar, about improvements over the existing rings (let's face it -- although powerful, they are mere essays in the craft). I'm thinking of a really, really big ring, truly active, that acts as a master remote control! But first, I need a volcano-sheltered ring-forge, able to withstand our cold Mordor winters and immune to the machinations of the Elf conglomerate. Maybe include a Balrog pit beneath the floor to capture and process Gandalf The Greywater into Gandalf The Whitewater for disposal. We will not attempt to process Radagast The Brownwater.

[Cut to aerial view: ranks of assembled Uruk-Hai et al]
We've got an army of Orcs cursing at us in their foul tongue, urging us to drop necromancy and get on with this project! The Hobbits may try to thwart us, but they're too zoned-out on pipeweed to be a threat.

What do you say? Shall we try?

[Closing shot: Paul Bombadil singing lustily: "Dig a hole, case a hole! Shove a one-inch pipe in!"]
 
Whip out those weird instruments of science and probe away! I think it's a tiny ad:
Rocket Mass Heater Manual - now free for a while
https://permies.com/goodies/8/rmhman
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