Win a copy of Grocery Story this week in the City Repair forum!
  • Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
permaculture forums growies critters building homesteading energy monies kitchen purity ungarbage community wilderness fiber arts art permaculture artisans regional education experiences global resources the cider press projects digital market permies.com private forums all forums
this forum made possible by our volunteer staff, including ...
master stewards:
  • r ranson
  • Nicole Alderman
  • Anne Miller
stewards:
  • Mike Jay
  • paul wheaton
  • Joseph Lofthouse
garden masters:
  • Joylynn Hardesty
  • Steve Thorn
  • James Freyr
  • Greg Martin
  • Dave Burton
gardeners:
  • Carla Burke
  • Pearl Sutton
  • Dan Boone

Paleo diet

 
pollinator
Posts: 3738
Location: Vermont, off grid for 24 years!
100
dog duck fungi trees books chicken bee solar
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

greg patrick wrote:[ The more you exercise, the more carbs your body needs for fuel.



Not true!

When you restrict carbs your body starts burning fat for fuel. Several cultures (the Masai, Inuit, Great Plains Native Americans) were almost exclusively carnivorous and they got plenty of exercise. Peter Attia's site (here) get's into technical issues, very heavy on the science. Also, most of the various low carb books do as well (Gary Taubes, Atkins, etc.). Peter's low carb journey is an interesting read. He first cut out sugar and HFCS, then switched to only whole grains then very low carbs and ketosis. He works out 3-4 hours a day with very low carbs and looks/feels much better than when he worked out that much and ate carbs.

I didn't think Paleo allowed grains because that's a relatively recent adaptation. All of these diets do say to avoid sugar like the plague!

I've been doing this 2 months and the weight is coming off with no hunger.
 
Posts: 644
2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I changed to a mainly Pescatarian diet and rarely eat potatoes or bread and cut out pasta. I feel 100% better and rarely get sick.
 
Posts: 168
Location: SoCal, USDA Zone 10b
3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Cj Verde wrote:

greg patrick wrote:[ The more you exercise, the more carbs your body needs for fuel.



Not true!



Refer to Mat LeLond, Robb Wolf, Chris Kresser, Mark Sisson, Gary Taubs et all. These guys are the core of the Primal/Paleo world and they all agree that carbs are king, mostly post workout. Yams or rice or potatoes or milk will replenish muscle and liver glycogen very effectively. Read up.
 
Posts: 63
Location: Tacoma, WA [8B-7B]
1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
First I heard about paleo, then a week+ later, GAPS (Gut And Psychology Syndrome, soon to have a Gut And Physiology Syndrome edition), then days later WAPF.

The thing I balked at about paleo is that I think paleolithic peoples probably ate everything edible, including grains, legumes, and tubers, but think about it, small amounts and strictly seasonal. I also guess that a lot of the grains went to fermented drinks (which I then think led to agriculture to increase fermented drink availability, which led to the first AA chapter, etc...). So, I think that paleo is a great way to halt the disaster of the SAD (Standard American Diet) and reverse much of the damage, but I think that GAPS is even better at the healing part of that. Once the healing is done, I look forward to finding where my body does the best using paleo and WAPF as loose guidelines and food preparation help.

I love the podcast, Latest in Paleo. The host often states that there is a certain fluidity to paleo, less dogmatic and more open to using the information that we gain through further study and personalized results.

I'm loosing weight and seeing dramatic health improvements and now my friend who is immobilized with MS has agreed to allow me to work this healing magic on/with her.

I'll report back in a few months on our progress! FTR, I am moving slowly into GAPS by eating 'full GAPS' minus dairy (which means I'm eating paleo) and looking forward to the 'intro diet', esp to get dairy back, I definitely react to dairy now.
 
Cj Sloane
pollinator
Posts: 3738
Location: Vermont, off grid for 24 years!
100
dog duck fungi trees books chicken bee solar
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

greg patrick wrote:

Cj Verde wrote:

greg patrick wrote:[ The more you exercise, the more carbs your body needs for fuel.



Not true!



Refer to Mat LeLond, Robb Wolf, Chris Kresser, Mark Sisson, Gary Taubs et all. These guys are the core of the Primal/Paleo world and they all agree that carbs are king, mostly post workout. Yams or rice or potatoes or milk will replenish muscle and liver glycogen very effectively. Read up.



I've read extensively. Gary Taubes most certainly disagrees that carbs are king.

A direct quote from Gary Taubes Why We Get Fat:

Since carbohydrates make us fat, it follows that the best and perhaps only way to avoid becoming fat is to avoid the carbohydrate-rich foods that are responsible. For those who are already fat, this implies that the best and perhaps only way to become lean again is to do the same. The logic is straightforward. But our doctors believe these diets will do us more harm than good, which makes it a difficult and dangerous proposition to believe otherwise.



Taubes, Gary (2010-12-28). Why We Get Fat: And What to Do About It (p. 173). Random House, Inc.. Kindle Edition.

And here:

Following Through
This is not a diet book, because it’s not a diet we’re discussing. Once you accept the fact that carbohydrates—not overeating or a sedentary life—will make you fat, then the idea of “going on a diet” to lose weight, or what the health experts would call a “dietary treatment for obesity,” no longer holds any real meaning. Now the only subjects worth discussing are how best to avoid the carbohydrates responsible—the refined grains, the starches, and the sugars—and what else we might do to maximize the benefits to our health.


Taubes, Gary (2010-12-28). Why We Get Fat: And What to Do About It (p. 201). Random House, Inc.. Kindle Edition.
 
greg patrick
Posts: 168
Location: SoCal, USDA Zone 10b
3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Now the only subjects worth discussing are how best to avoid the carbohydrates responsible—the refined grains, the starches, and the sugars—and what else we might do to maximize the benefits to our health.


Taubes, Gary (2010-12-28). Why We Get Fat: And What to Do About It (p. 201). Random House, Inc.. Kindle Edition.


Taubes is saying right here, in your own quote, that we need to avoid the carbohydrates responsible—the refined grains, the starches, and the sugars. Not avoid carbohydrates, avoid BAD carbohydrates.

I'm not talking about the average, overweight, sedentary, insulin resistant American here, I'm talking about fit, normal weight, insulin sensitive athletes who benefit from good carbs to replenish glycogen post workout. The harder you work out, the more you need good post workout carbs. Carbs from veggies and tubers and white rice and milk are not evil; empty carbs from processed grains and sugars are what wrecks us.

Many people who hit weight loss plateaus find that they get better body composition results and better energy when they add significant amounts of good carbs back into their diet, but not until they're most of the way to their goal. I'm not suggesting someone with 30% body fat should eat baked potatoes with their steak, and I'm not suggesting anyone should ever 'carbo load'. In fact, some new research I just read showed top level cyclists eating low carb during exercise had much better endurance than their carb-sipping counterparts.

And going back to the Taubes, chew on this: Gary Taubes from his interview with Robb Wolf, ep.78 , referring to the Katavans: "And it's an excellent point. And then it turns out that the researchers suggest that indeed it is sugar, the fructose [0:32:51] [Inaudible] impacting the liver. So that would be my understanding. And yet it is conceivable that if we never had sugar the other carbs would be much more tolerable to us. And if we never had sugar and white flour, if we had just tubers and roots and we'd be fine and healthy as could be."

Taubes also says 'Lets not make this a religion'. He is one of the most reasonable voices in a chorus of extreme views.

I love Chris Kresser's 'Beyond Paleo' view: Everyone's different, experiment and see what works for you.

And Rob Wolff: Take it out of your diet for 30 days, then re-introduce it and see if you feel stronger/healthier.

What works for other people is only a starting point. Everyone's different, so we all need to experiment to see what works for ourselves.
 
Cj Sloane
pollinator
Posts: 3738
Location: Vermont, off grid for 24 years!
100
dog duck fungi trees books chicken bee solar
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

greg patrick wrote:
I'm not talking about the average, overweight, sedentary, insulin resistant American here, I'm talking about fit, normal weight, insulin sensitive athletes who benefit from good carbs to replenish glycogen post workout. The harder you work out, the more you need good post workout carbs. Carbs from veggies and tubers and white rice and milk are not evil; empty carbs from processed grains and sugars are what wrecks us.



This is an incredibly small percentage of the population. Attia makes the case that, perhaps, Olympic level athletes may need a bit more carbs but after a 3-4 hour workout he lets the ketones do their job.

I can't think of anyone who thinks veggies are evil but the evidence indicates they are not necessary (I'll cite Taubes and Phinney if you like). Tubers, white rice, and milk are more controversial though it depends which low-carb group you adhere to. I can't think of anyone who promotes white rice though.

I actually think Taubes is fairly extreme but I'm slowly coming around to his side. By extreme I mean he proposes limiting your fruit intake:

Even the fruits we eat today are vastly different from the wild varieties consumed by hunter-gatherers, whether the modern versions or the Paleolithic ones. And they’re now available year-round, rather than for only a few months of the year—late summer and fall in temperate climates. Although nutritionists today consider copious fruit a necessary part of a healthy diet, and it has become popular to suggest that one problem with Western diets is the relative absence of fruit, it’s worth remembering that we’ve been cultivating fruit trees for only the past few thousand years, and that the kinds of fruit we eat today—Fuji apples, Bartlett pears, navel oranges—have been bred to be far juicier and sweeter than the wild varieties and so, in effect, to be far more fattening. The essential point, as this 2000 analysis noted, is that the modern foods that today constitute more than 60 percent of all calories in the typical Western diet—including cereal grains, dairy products, beverages, vegetable oils and dressings, and sugar and candy—“would have contributed virtually none of the energy in the typical hunter-gatherer diet.” If we believe that our genetic makeup has a say in what constitutes a healthy diet, then the likely reason that easily digestible starches, refined carbohydrates (flour and white rice), and sugars are fattening is that we didn’t evolve to eat them and certainly not in the quantities in which we eat them today. That a diet would be healthier without them seems manifestly obvious. As for meat, fish, and fowl, for protein and fat, these would be the staples of a healthy diet, as they apparently were for our ancestors for two and a half million years.


Taubes, Gary (2010-12-28). Why We Get Fat: And What to Do About It (pp. 167-168). Random House, Inc.. Kindle Edition.

The bit about cultivating fruit trees is interesting from a permaculture perspective though I haven't drawn any conclusions. I'm leaning towards a thumbs up for a carb that is a perennial, and a thumbs down for an annual.
 
steward
Posts: 1748
Location: Western Kentucky-Climate Unpredictable Zone 6b
104
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I find this paleo diet attractive but have not embarked upon it except when I have tried the low carb diets. Mostly I like the idea of being able to more easily grow my own carbs. Also , I failed completely on no-carb approaches since I felt so weak after just a few weeks. I have to disagree with the notion that the paleolithic era was a golden age for human diet and health. I think it was probably a short and brutal life that rarely let you live long enough to develop heart disease. There is certainly evidence of osteoarthritis in the fossil record. The apparent drop in average human size can be attributed to the reliance on monocrops and subjection to famine and crop failure. Hunter gatherers had more resilience built into their diet options. I keep coming back to the findings of all recent studies of healthy dietary patterns that point to calorie vs exertion being the key to health. We can certainly use less daily spikes in our blood sugar , and grains do that even if they are whole. Imagine the effort needed by our ancestors just to find constant sources of tubers and berries , never mind hunting with a stone tipped spear. Running from bears. I am going to try this diet out - but I still don't think buying a grass fed steak from Whole Paycheck Foods is the same as chasing a herd 25 miles and then going toe to toe with protective bulls and cows so you can nab a calf or take on the bull itself with a spear. For most of the paleolithic era humans did not even have fire , scavenging was probably more successful than hunting and so fighting hyenas , lions , and wolves was probably
a heck of a workout. If this is the case , then post workout meals was the case then too . Incredible exertion and then a meal .
 
Cj Sloane
pollinator
Posts: 3738
Location: Vermont, off grid for 24 years!
100
dog duck fungi trees books chicken bee solar
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

wayne stephen wrote:I think it was probably a short and brutal life that rarely let you live long enough to develop heart disease.



I mainly disagree with this. "Modern day" hunter gatherers do/did live enough so that we know they didn't develop heart disease, diabetes, appendicitis, and cancer (until they ate western diets). As for a golden age of health... my favorite line in Cleave's book (free online, see above for link) was that eliminating sugar and white flour will eliminate the diseases of the West, but will not protect against attack by virus or multicellular organisms like tapeworm or tigers.

As for weakness with the low-carb diets, several books address the issue. One cure is to have a cup of high sodium broth every day due to the fact that you're not retaining water like on a high carb diet. Also, it takes time to adapt.

The deal with grass fed beef has more to do with the omega 3 v 6. and less chance of e-coli problems. Most would say even corn fed beef is better than say a corn muffin.
 
master pollinator
Posts: 11177
Location: Central Texas USA Latitude 30 Zone 8
663
cat forest garden fish trees chicken fiber arts wood heat greening the desert
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Cj Verde wrote:

wayne stephen wrote:I think it was probably a short and brutal life that rarely let you live long enough to develop heart disease.



I mainly disagree with this.



Yeah, the short brutal life thing has mostly been disproved, or rather, was really mostly imaginary. Not saying hunter-gatherer life is all peaches and cream. Fatality due to injury is fairly high and in some cultures, death among young men can be high due to fighting among different groups.

Here's a discussion about the "nasty brutish and short" myth: http://rewild.info/anthropik/2005/10/thesis-9-agriculture-is-difficult-dangerous-and-unhealthy/index.html
 
Posts: 11
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I totally agree! The paleo diet seems to definitely be the starting point for a lot of people, it however does not talk about several other things such as using only organic produce all the time (i.e. organic vegetables NOT just organic pasture fed free range meat) and no fermented foods. The best book i have read that covers all angles, as well as being very science based has been 'Deep Nutrition - why your genes need traditional food'. Especially its sections on grains and fats which was very enlightening.

http://www.amazon.com/Deep-Nutrition-Your-Genes-Traditional/dp/0615228380

This is an amazing book that, in my eyes, provides the ultimate information on what food choices we should make for short and long term genetic health. It deals with many issues, including Epi-genetics and the Western A Price Foundation findings to name a few.

What do other people think of the book?

Cheers,
Doug.



Clover Love wrote:First I heard about paleo, then a week+ later, GAPS (Gut And Psychology Syndrome, soon to have a Gut And Physiology Syndrome edition), then days later WAPF.

The thing I balked at about paleo is that I think paleolithic peoples probably ate everything edible, including grains, legumes, and tubers, but think about it, small amounts and strictly seasonal. I also guess that a lot of the grains went to fermented drinks (which I then think led to agriculture to increase fermented drink availability, which led to the first AA chapter, etc...). So, I think that paleo is a great way to halt the disaster of the SAD (Standard American Diet) and reverse much of the damage, but I think that GAPS is even better at the healing part of that. Once the healing is done, I look forward to finding where my body does the best using paleo and WAPF as loose guidelines and food preparation help.

I love the podcast, Latest in Paleo. The host often states that there is a certain fluidity to paleo, less dogmatic and more open to using the information that we gain through further study and personalized results.

I'm loosing weight and seeing dramatic health improvements and now my friend who is immobilized with MS has agreed to allow me to work this healing magic on/with her.

I'll report back in a few months on our progress! FTR, I am moving slowly into GAPS by eating 'full GAPS' minus dairy (which means I'm eating paleo) and looking forward to the 'intro diet', esp to get dairy back, I definitely react to dairy now.

 
Cj Sloane
pollinator
Posts: 3738
Location: Vermont, off grid for 24 years!
100
dog duck fungi trees books chicken bee solar
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I just wanted to post this because of my Gary Taubes reference earlier. He really eats almost no fruit or veggies! The more hard science I've read, the less I'm eating too. But... we're heading into berry season. 2 cups a day will still keep me in tolerance - esp with heavy cream (slows the spike in blood sugar).

... I do indeed eat three eggs with cheese, bacon and sausage for breakfast every morning, typically a couple of cheeseburgers (no bun) or a roast chicken for lunch, and more often than not, a ribeye or New York steak (grass fed) for dinner, usually in the neighborhood of a pound of meat. I cook with butter and, occasionally, olive oil (the sausages). My snacks run to cheese and almonds. So lots of fat and saturated fat and very little carbohydrates. A deadly diet, according to Dr. Oz.



Not a guy who thinks carbs are king - even after workouts.
What Gary Taubes eats every day
 
Tyler Ludens
master pollinator
Posts: 11177
Location: Central Texas USA Latitude 30 Zone 8
663
cat forest garden fish trees chicken fiber arts wood heat greening the desert
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Cj Verde wrote: The more hard science I've read, the less I'm eating too.



It's interesting the different conclusions different people reach from reading the same hard science.
 
Cj Sloane
pollinator
Posts: 3738
Location: Vermont, off grid for 24 years!
100
dog duck fungi trees books chicken bee solar
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I am much more skeptical of "scientific studies" now.

I just recently read that the reason Gary Taubes started investigating the low carb v low fat feud is due to the fact that he met someone taking claim for putting America on the "low-fat" path. He said this guy was the worst "scientist" he had ever met and he was convinced there had to be a story there.
 
Tyler Ludens
master pollinator
Posts: 11177
Location: Central Texas USA Latitude 30 Zone 8
663
cat forest garden fish trees chicken fiber arts wood heat greening the desert
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Cj Verde wrote:someone taking claim for putting America on the "low-fat" path.



After which Americans became fatter than ever....
 
steward
Posts: 7926
Location: Currently in Lake Stevens, WA. Home in Spokane
313
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Yeah. When you remove most of the fats from many foods, they become bland.
The food industry offset the blandness by adding sugar (or HFCS). Thanks for the "favor".

 
Posts: 539
Location: Athens, GA/Sunset, SC
1
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Low-fat and low-carb is plain out unhealthy. Alaskan cultures are virtually disease-free. The people of Sardinia as well as so many other Italian provinces are among the healthiest cultures on earth. It's certainly not because they make it a point to avoid carbs and/or fat.
In fact, they make it a point to include it in their regime daily and plentifully. Sardinians for instance herd goats, drink goat milk for breakfast with a bit of grilled boar/olives/whole-grain bread, eat a great deal of legumes, fruits (notably figs and some citrus), farm fresh salads (with mass amounts of olive oil throughout the entire process). Meat is actually consumed sparsely, perhaps 2-3 times a week, but especially on Sundays. Red wine called "Cannonau" is consumed nightly. This is perhaps one of the most reputable and reliable lifestyles on earth. Let us take notice, and stop buying into empty-dangerous trends. Eat sensibly, smart, and exercise often. Make it a lifestyle rather than just another "diet".
 
greg patrick
Posts: 168
Location: SoCal, USDA Zone 10b
3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Cj Verde wrote:I just wanted to post this because of my Gary Taubes reference earlier. He really eats almost no fruit or veggies! The more hard science I've read, the less I'm eating too. But... we're heading into berry season. 2 cups a day will still keep me in tolerance - esp with heavy cream (slows the spike in blood sugar).

... I do indeed eat three eggs with cheese, bacon and sausage for breakfast every morning, typically a couple of cheeseburgers (no bun) or a roast chicken for lunch, and more often than not, a ribeye or New York steak (grass fed) for dinner, usually in the neighborhood of a pound of meat. I cook with butter and, occasionally, olive oil (the sausages). My snacks run to cheese and almonds. So lots of fat and saturated fat and very little carbohydrates. A deadly diet, according to Dr. Oz.



Not a guy who thinks carbs are king - even after workouts.
What Gary Taubes eats every day



Not in his books; Listen to his interviews. He's much more flexible on good carbs now than when he wrote the books (Good/Bad, and Why We Get Fat). Do some searching on the Rob Wolff and Chris Kresser podcasts and websites. LOTS of good things on good carbs from most of the experts. Very few are still saying active people should avoid carbs. Now if you are overweight and want to loose weight, that's another matter. Low carb is a great way to get healthy quickly. But for folks who are already in great shape and want to maximize performance, energy and recovery, carbs can't be beat. Milk and yams are my two favorites.
 
Cj Sloane
pollinator
Posts: 3738
Location: Vermont, off grid for 24 years!
100
dog duck fungi trees books chicken bee solar
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Actually, I just watched a video where he gave a speech to a paleo type group. At the very end he said that he differed from Dr Lustig (of Sugar: The Bitter Truth) because Dr Lustig said you'd be fine if you just stayed away from sugar and HFCS whereas Taubes believes once you've begun to show signs of insulin resistance you'd have to give up most/all carbs - including sweet potatoes. You could hear lots of groans from the audience.

One of these days I will hunt down those podcasts you are referring to.
 
greg patrick
Posts: 168
Location: SoCal, USDA Zone 10b
3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Regarding the Katavans being very healthy eating a high carb diet, Gary Taubes: "And it's an excellent point. And then it turns out that the researchers suggest that indeed it is sugar, the fructose [0:32:51] [Inaudible] impacting the liver. So that would be my understanding. And yet it is conceivable that if we never had sugar the other carbs would be much more tolerable to us. And if we never had sugar and white flour, if we had just tubers and roots and we'd be fine and healthy as could be. But…"

source: http://robbwolf.com/wp//wp-content/uploads/2011/05/Episode78.pdf
http://robbwolf.com/2011/05/03/the-paleo-solution-episode-78/ audio
 
Posts: 24
Location: Tucson, AZ
10
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Does anyone know of good sources for grain free vegetable recipes?
 
Corky Love
Posts: 63
Location: Tacoma, WA [8B-7B]
1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

sheryl hansen wrote:Does anyone know of good sources for grain free vegetable recipes?



The other day I was listening to the podcast, An Organic Conversation, of which I've been contemplating dropping from my playlist. Yes, they're pro-organic, eco, green, etc., but I want more progressive information. However, they had the author of Meals That Heal Inflammation, Julie Daniluk, as a guest and she specifically mentioned that she included recipes for vegans, as she had been one for many years.

I have not had an opportunity to peruse the book, but you can listen to the podcast to hear her nutritional approach. I'm interested in paleo/GAPS/WAPF and I'm married to a lacto-ovo vegetarian (since he was 15=dogmatic) and am seriously considering the book to get ideas for his meals.

Ideas/Thoughts that have come up in considering how to approach his dietary limits:
*soy - only fermented, so no tofu. Miso, tamari/soy sauce (wheat free), and tempeh are my known fermented soy
*no wheat or legumes? - hardest, so I'm working towards WAPF grain advice and we've always soaked the legumes, utilize GAPS acceptable legumes
*major increase in consumption of fungi
*absolute highest quality of fats, eggs, and dairy
*eggshell stock - haven't tried it yet
*rice seems to be low on the anti-nutrient scale, at least that's what my body tells me, so we see it once a week or less
*cultured dairy and fermented veggies

 
pollinator
Posts: 340
Location: Colville, WA Zone 5b
78
goat kids books homestead
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Cj Verde wrote:

greg patrick wrote:[ The more you exercise, the more carbs your body needs for fuel.



Not true!

When you restrict carbs your body starts burning fat for fuel. Several cultures (the Masai, Inuit, Great Plains Native Americans) were almost exclusively carnivorous and they got plenty of exercise. Peter Attia's site (here) get's into technical issues, very heavy on the science. Also, most of the various low carb books do as well (Gary Taubes, Atkins, etc.). Peter's low carb journey is an interesting read. He first cut out sugar and HFCS, then switched to only whole grains then very low carbs and ketosis. He works out 3-4 hours a day with very low carbs and looks/feels much better than when he worked out that much and ate carbs.

I didn't think Paleo allowed grains because that's a relatively recent adaptation. All of these diets do say to avoid sugar like the plague!

I've been doing this 2 months and the weight is coming off with no hunger.



That might be the case for some but interestingly that didn't work for me. I was very low on starches and low-ish carb since I first went primal (at 3 mos pregnant last year) and I did mostly okay but about two weeks ago I started a more rigorous workout schedule, just an hour or so a day with heavy lifting a four times a week. I didn't really think about changing my diet because so many of the paleo folks say they do fine with heavy workout regimens and low carb.

I started noticing that on my "easy" workout days (which always followed two days of heavy lifting) I would get really sick late morning - like weird sick. Tired, groggy, feeling yucky, and verrry cranky. After the second time it happened, I ate some starchy carbs and almost immediately within about 10 minutes I felt better. My breakfasts had always been zero carb and so since that happened I've started adding in some starch in my breakfasts and I do fine now. And then the one time I forgot, it happened again.

I don't know if it's because I'm nursing a baby or what, but I can tell you that low carb plus rigorous exercise is NOT a good idea for me. It only resulted in a very groggy, out of it, tired cranky mom for my three girls. What I'm doing now is having some starchy carbs for breakfast along with my regular eggs & coffee, and then post-workout is a kefir/banana smoothie with a little sweetened cream added (and a hefty dose of fish oil). It seems to be working well.
 
Posts: 187
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Somebody that needs lots of carbs to get through a workout, may be doing the wrong kind of workout. Workouts tend to be unnatural. People that live in remote parts of the world, don't need to load up on carbs because they are about to perform a certain task or because they just finished a certain task.
Ask yourself, are you training to be a top athlete or are you training to be be fit and healthy? The two are not always the same.
 
Cj Sloane
pollinator
Posts: 3738
Location: Vermont, off grid for 24 years!
100
dog duck fungi trees books chicken bee solar
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I think if you're working out really hard AND nursing it's like working out really, really, really hard.

I'd check the paleo specific blogs/boards but I wonder if there are enough nursing women, on low carb, who workout really hard to get an idea of the norm (and you may not be in the norm of that small population).
 
Tyler Ludens
master pollinator
Posts: 11177
Location: Central Texas USA Latitude 30 Zone 8
663
cat forest garden fish trees chicken fiber arts wood heat greening the desert
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Here's an article about nursing and primal diet and it suggests a moderate carb diet, NOT a low carb diet for nursing moms! http://www.marksdailyapple.com/nursing-primal-blueprint-diet/#axzz22ia2XG1y
 
greg patrick
Posts: 168
Location: SoCal, USDA Zone 10b
3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
The big debate at this years Ancestral Health Symposium was over carbs. A panel of experts debated the subject and it appears the pure ketogenic crowd is becoming fringe. Bottom line: Carbs like white rice, potatoes and raw milk are Primal if you workout. I workout like a fool and I need lots of carbs. Apparently so do lots of others.

Here are some great links about AHS2012:

http://chriskresser.com/take-home-messages-from-ahs-2012

http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2012/08/ancestral-health-symposium-2012.html

http://robbwolf.com/2012/08/14/ancestral-health-symposium-2012-review/#comment-115295

http://vimeo.com/ancestralhealthsymposium

http://www.slideshare.net/ancestralhealth/presentations

 
pollinator
Posts: 356
Location: Portugal (zone 9) and Iceland (zone 5)
13
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Hi folks,

I currently eat mostly vegetarian, mostly grains (rice, millet, amaranth, rye...), pulses, some nuts and seeds, and ocasionally eggs, milk and fish.

I am very open to diets, but the problem is, my body is extremely picky.

It does not do well with processed food that's sure, sweets neither, it does not want meat, it does not like too much oils, it is not very fond of soft fruits (but it is of greens), and my body needs a daily dose of pulses and grain. I have tried variations but to no success. No carbs and I suffer from sugar levels and weakness. Fruits same thing: put my sugar levels unstable. But nuts work good (but they make my toilet wastes a bit harder ). No proteins and I also suffer: pulses are a good option. But when I try raw sprout pulses somehow I feel they are undigestible for me. I need some animal protein (ocasionally but not too much), because going vegan did not work for me (my health got worse), eggs, milk and fish seems ok (but not too much or I get sick of it - since they are fatty foods) I am also very thin with a high metabolism. I seem to have a perfect health, except for ocasional tooth problems.

Would you advice me, based in the paleolithic original diet, what could I change? I definitively do not wish to suffer and eating something I don't want, and suffering a lack of energy. It would be perfect to fit a perfect healthy diet, with permaculture (growing my own food) and my body needs!

 
greg patrick
Posts: 168
Location: SoCal, USDA Zone 10b
3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Paulo Bessa wrote: it does not want meat,

How about fish? Wild game? Pastured red meats?

Paulo Bessa wrote:it does not like too much oils

Which oils? Some are amazing and most are very toxic

Paulo Bessa wrote: except for ocasional tooth problems.

Likely from the high grain diet.

Paulo Bessa wrote: Would you advice me, based in the paleolithic original diet, what could I change? I definitively do not wish to suffer and eating something I don't want, and suffering a lack of energy. It would be perfect to fit a perfect healthy diet, with permaculture (growing my own food) and my body needs!



It takes several weeks for our bodies to adjust to lower carbs. I exercise a ton so I need a fair amount of rice/potatoes, etc to fuel me and since you're already thin and have high metabolism, you might not want to go much below 150-200g/day of carbs. I use 'getting sleepy' after a meal to be my indicator of when I over did it on the carbs. Try getting some of your protein from cold water fish like wild salmon, herring, etc. Also, while CAFO meat and milk make me very ill, pastured meats and raw pastured dairy make me thrive. Keep a food diary and see what your body likes. And remember that grain cravings take quite awhile to go away.

Another thought: How's your gut flora health? Eating all those grains is horrible for gut flora. Eat lots of pro-biotic foods like kefir, kimchee, etc and then try to re-introduce the healthy but reactive foods periodically. You may have simply developed reactivity due to leaky gut, which will probably go away once your gut health is restored. Read more about the GAPS diet for the full story here.

Also, read Sally Fallon's 'Nourishing Traditions', Robb Wolf's 'Paleo Solution', and Mark Sisson's 'Primal Blueprint'.
 
Cj Sloane
pollinator
Posts: 3738
Location: Vermont, off grid for 24 years!
100
dog duck fungi trees books chicken bee solar
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
There are some vegetarians who do paleo but it doesn't sound like the right diet for you.

Paleo/low carb tends to be quite high in fat 30% protein and minimal carbs - depending on your activity level. Most grains are frowned upon, beans too. Buckwheat & quinoa are sort of acceptable. Sweet potatoes are OK but not regular potatoes.

A pretty good test would be to ask yourself if it would have been eaten by a hunter gatherer.
 
Paulo Bessa
pollinator
Posts: 356
Location: Portugal (zone 9) and Iceland (zone 5)
13
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

greg patrick wrote:

Paulo Bessa wrote: except for ocasional tooth problems.

Likely from the high grain diet.

Paulo Bessa wrote: Would you advice me, based in the paleolithic original diet, what could I change? I definitively do not wish to suffer and eating something I don't want, and suffering a lack of energy. It would be perfect to fit a perfect healthy diet, with permaculture (growing my own food) and my body needs!



It takes several weeks for our bodies to adjust to lower carbs. I exercise a ton so I need a fair amount of rice/potatoes, etc to fuel me and since you're already thin and have high metabolism, you might not want to go much below 150-200g/day of carbs. I use 'getting sleepy' after a meal to be my indicator of when I over did it on the carbs. .



Hi Greg, thanks for your help.

I already eat around 100-150 g/day of carbs (about 40g in every main mail). So I guess I should stick to it. I don´t feel sleepy after any meal.
Still I have some tooth problems, I would very much like that they would recover, but it seems impossible.

I eat about once per week, wild salmon. I feel fine with it, but can´t eat too much of it, my stomach does not enjoy too much fatty food. Only other oils I eat are seeds (like sesame), nuts and olive oil (I don´t use any other vegetable oil).

Milk seems to be perfectly fine to me (I don´t take more than a portion per day). My body seems good with it. A few years ago I removed milk from my diet for a while and I lost much weight and the tooth problems became worse. That was not good. So that´s why I eat ocasional fish and 1 portion milk per day.

Gut flora, That is an interesting thing to look at. Actually I don´t eat pro-biotic foods but probably I should. Anyways I tried kefir once and I did not like it. But I eat sometimes pro-biotic yogurts. I eat also legumes nearly every day (most is chick peas, lentils and cowpeas). If I don´t eat legumes or fish, then I feel hungry and weak, probably due to the lack of protein.






 
greg patrick
Posts: 168
Location: SoCal, USDA Zone 10b
3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Paulo,

If you want to get the benefits of eating Paleo, you need to do it and do it completely. No cheating, no compromises, no excuses. If you have leaky gut, you need to heal that first. And since you're reactive to so many foods and you eat a lot of grains and legumes, it's very likely you have it. Leaky gut will make you react to everything. Go on a GAPS diet first to heal your gut, then reintroduce foods per the GAPS protocol. Only then can we start talking about how well you tolerate foods.

Pasteurized dairy and grains destroy teeth and bones quickly, but bone broths, raw dairy, vitamin D from sunshine, magnesium and weight lifting repair damaged bones and teeth quickly (if your teeth are bad, so are you bones).

So here's my 2 cents. If you were me, I'd get Dr. Natasha Campbell-McBride's book on the GAPS diet and read it. Then follow it if it seemed like it would help me. If it turns out you have symptoms of leaky gut you'll feel much better afterward and you will be much better able to eat paleo foods that are problematic right now. Consider the GAPS diet as the ultimate 'cleanse' to get your body ready for a paleo diet. It will be worth the effort.

http://www.gapsdiet.com/

And if you don't think leaky gut is a factor, then get a hold of one of the excellent paleo/primal books out there and just start doing it cold turkey. You'll probably feel a little worse for the first two or three weeks as your body get over it's grain addictions and your system get accustomed to the new diet, but then you'll feel great.



 
Paulo Bessa
pollinator
Posts: 356
Location: Portugal (zone 9) and Iceland (zone 5)
13
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
What I do not know is why grains like rice, buckwheat amaranth or quinoa irritate the gut?
These can be a good source for a low to moderate carb diet. And because rice, buckwheat, amaranth and quinoa are not grasses.

Second question: why is it unhealthy to eat pulses?

When pulses are soaked to germination (antinutrients start to disappear) and then they are boiled with a couple of changes of water, their anti-nutrients are probably completely removed or destroyed.

I can understand that still some beans (like red kidney) might provoke gas (which is not a good sign), but I only eat very digestible pulses like chick peas, peas, cowpeas, mung beans and some types of lentils. Do you think if I prepare them well they are still not healthy?

I totally agree with all the rest: avoiding processed, sugar, salt... and eating an abundance of raw fruits and greens.

 
Posts: 416
Location: Otago, New Zealand
3
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Many people do well on those grains, and many people eat pulses likewise. If your diet works for you why would you want to change it? Did I miss something that you are unhappy about?

Paleo works extremely well for many people, but I don't see any evidence that everyone should eat like that (nor that the planet can sustain that kind of eating for everyone).

re your teeth, have you read any of the Weston Price material? You could probably make some adjustments to you diet that increase nutrient density (meat broths would be a good place to start).
 
greg patrick
Posts: 168
Location: SoCal, USDA Zone 10b
3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Paulo Bessa wrote:What I do not know is why grains like rice, buckwheat amaranth or quinoa irritate the gut?
These can be a good source for a low to moderate carb diet. And because rice, buckwheat, amaranth and quinoa are not grasses.

Second question: why is it unhealthy to eat pulses?

These are definitely sources of carbs, but they aren't good sources. I'm not going to explain why because I'm off to the ranch and don't have time to do your homework for you. Read the four books I suggested. They will answer ALL your questions.

Paulo Bessa wrote:I can understand that still some beans (like red kidney) might provoke gas (which is not a good sign), but I only eat very digestible pulses like chick peas, peas, cowpeas, mung beans and some types of lentils. Do you think if I prepare them well they are still not healthy?

Yes. Still unhealthy. Read the books.
 
Posts: 16
Location: The Edge of Faerie
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
For solid information on the paleo diet, check out Nora Gedgaudas. One of the best experts in the field, in my opinion. This is going BEYOND the so-called paleo diet.

Her official website - http://www.primalbody-primalmind.com/

Her podcasts - https://itunes.apple.com/podcast/primal-body-primal-mind-radio/id385416862

Lecture - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEhLhqZjddg&playnext=1&list=PL2F0EB7AEFE082C74&feature=results_video

She's a lot like Sally Fallon. But she goes into the paleo diet aspect much more.
 
Rion Mather
Posts: 644
2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I have decided to eliminate beef, chicken, and pork in favor of wild game and fish. I am also increasing my rice intake and dumping the pasta. We'll see how this works. I'm pretty much a pescetarian as it is so it should work.
 
Posts: 135
5
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

greg patrick wrote:

Cj Verde wrote:

greg patrick wrote:[ The more you exercise, the more carbs your body needs for fuel.



Not true!



Refer to Mat LeLond, Robb Wolf, Chris Kresser, Mark Sisson, Gary Taubs et all. These guys are the core of the Primal/Paleo world and they all agree that carbs are king, mostly post workout. Yams or rice or potatoes or milk will replenish muscle and liver glycogen very effectively. Read up.



Not true. When reading in the Paleo world, you need to understand that there are two broad categories of people who follow Paleo: High-Performance Athletes (like the Cross-Fit followers) and Everyday folks. These Paleo gurus regularly recommend a low-carb paleo for the everyday folks who need to lose weight. They recommend it as a part of an overall strategy to reverse and fix "Metabolic Syndrome" which afflicts many people. Once that's been cleared up, then carbs are reintroduced slowly, mostly in the form of fruits and starchy vegetables in moderation.
 
Hold that thought. Tiny ad:
Food Forest Card Game - Game Forum
https://permies.com/t/61704/Food-Forest-Card-Game-Game
  • Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
Boost this thread!