Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
permaculture forums growies critters building homesteading energy monies kitchen purity ungarbage community wilderness fiber arts art permaculture artisans regional education skip experiences global resources cider press projects digital market permies.com pie forums private forums all forums
this forum made possible by our volunteer staff, including ...
master stewards:
  • Anne Miller
  • Leigh Tate
  • jordan barton
  • Pearl Sutton
  • Nicole Alderman
stewards:
  • r ranson
  • paul wheaton
  • Greg Martin
master gardeners:
  • Carla Burke
  • John F Dean
  • Jay Angler
gardeners:
  • Nancy Reading
  • Mike Barkley
  • L. Johnson

Occupy Wall Street

 
pollinator
Posts: 11827
Location: Central Texas USA Latitude 30 Zone 8
1135
cat forest garden fish trees chicken fiber arts wood heat greening the desert
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Report post to moderator
"OccupyWallSt.org is the unofficial de facto online resource for the ongoing protests happening on Wall Street. We are an affinity group committed to doing technical support work for resistance movements. We are not affiliated with Adbusters, anonymous or any other organization.

Occupy Wall Street is a people-powered movement that began on September 17, 2011 in Liberty Square in Manhattan’s Financial District, and has spread to over 100 cities in the United States and actions in over 1,500 cities globally. OWS is fighting back against the corrosive power of major banks and multinational corporations over the democratic process, and the role of Wall Street in creating an economic collapse that has caused the greatest recession in generations. The movement is inspired by popular uprisings in Egypt and Tunisia, and aims to expose how the richest 1% of people are writing the rules of an unfair global economy that is foreclosing on our future.

Occupy Wall Street is a horizontally organized resistance movement employing the revolutionary Arab Spring tactic to restore democracy in America. We use a tool known as a "people's assembly" to facilitate collective decision making in an open, participatory and non-binding manner. We call ours the NYC General Assembly and we welcome people from all colors, genders and beliefs to attend our daily assemblies."

http://occupywallst.org/about/
 
gardener
Posts: 2188
Location: Cascades of Oregon
316
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Report post to moderator
Hopefully leaders will begin to surface and the groups message will become more clear. Not a nebulous group but an articulate spokesperson(s) carrying the message.
  Though I support the idea of a more intune gov't.,  after the exposure of the 1 percent what do we do?
Globally what happens?
Is a clear even playing field that is wanted?
One world government?
Restore democracy in America by removing big money I'm all for it. I doubt that there will be a Presidential canidate this time around who isn't tainted.
 
Tyler Ludens
pollinator
Posts: 11827
Location: Central Texas USA Latitude 30 Zone 8
1135
cat forest garden fish trees chicken fiber arts wood heat greening the desert
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Report post to moderator
How can a horizontally-organized group allow leaders to emerge?  That would turn it into some kind of hierarchy.   

Even having spokespeople emerge is problematical, because who chooses the spokespeople?

If no leaders emerge (the organization remains non-hierarchical) and no spokespeople are chosen, will that invalidate the movement in the eyes of people who can only comprehend hierarchies?

 
Tyler Ludens
pollinator
Posts: 11827
Location: Central Texas USA Latitude 30 Zone 8
1135
cat forest garden fish trees chicken fiber arts wood heat greening the desert
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Report post to moderator
Is Elizabeth Warren articulate enough?  Does she qualify as a spokesperson for the Occupy movement?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/25/elizabeth-warren-occupy-wall-street_n_1030974.html

It's possible if an articulate spokesperson (like or as Warren) surfaces, that person will be ignored or invalidated.  Just like Warren.

 
Tyler Ludens
pollinator
Posts: 11827
Location: Central Texas USA Latitude 30 Zone 8
1135
cat forest garden fish trees chicken fiber arts wood heat greening the desert
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Report post to moderator
Is Naomi Wolf articulate?  Does she qualify as a spokesperson for the Occupy movement?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/oct/19/naomi-wolf-arrested-occupy-wall-street

It's possible if an articulate spokesperson (like or as Wolf) surfaces, that person will be ignored and arrested.  Like Wolf.
 
Robert Ray
gardener
Posts: 2188
Location: Cascades of Oregon
316
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Report post to moderator
Let's distill it to one goal and confirm that the group has the same goal and solution in mind, an idea starts out broad and gets a bit more pyramid like as the idea or consensus or goal is finally identified.
Here one voice is one vote, group's aren't allowed in the election booth. But money is allowed to be thrown about before that one voter gets there.

Well isn't kind of hierarchal now if they want to restore democracy?

Does the movement want democracy?

Would a spokesperson invalidate the movement?

Will the movement survive without leaders emerging?
 
Robert Ray
gardener
Posts: 2188
Location: Cascades of Oregon
316
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Report post to moderator
The movement needs more wolves me thinks.
 
Tyler Ludens
pollinator
Posts: 11827
Location: Central Texas USA Latitude 30 Zone 8
1135
cat forest garden fish trees chicken fiber arts wood heat greening the desert
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Report post to moderator
How often do the demands and goals need to be repeated before they are recognized? 

"On September 17th, men and women of all races, backgrounds, political and religious beliefs, began to organize in nonviolent protest. These men and women represent the 99% with the goal of ending the greed and corruption of the wealthiest 1% of America"

http://www.occupytogether.org/occupy-wall-st/
 
Robert Ray
gardener
Posts: 2188
Location: Cascades of Oregon
316
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Report post to moderator
We have a mission statement:
Now how to accomplish the mission.
In order to carry out the mission what would you do first?
The people are assembled now what?
 
Tyler Ludens
pollinator
Posts: 11827
Location: Central Texas USA Latitude 30 Zone 8
1135
cat forest garden fish trees chicken fiber arts wood heat greening the desert
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Report post to moderator
1. Reinstate the Glass-Steagall Act
2.  Reverse the Citizen's United decision

for starters. 
 
Tyler Ludens
pollinator
Posts: 11827
Location: Central Texas USA Latitude 30 Zone 8
1135
cat forest garden fish trees chicken fiber arts wood heat greening the desert
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Report post to moderator
The people can simply Occupy until those two very specific goals are met.  For starters.

How complicated is that?

 
Robert Ray
gardener
Posts: 2188
Location: Cascades of Oregon
316
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Report post to moderator
Ludi,
It's only part of the 99% now.
It's a movement yes, but not a majority movement and if this is a democracy the small part of the 99% has to get a bigger portion of people involved.
I understand that other countries are unhappy with their government as well but I am not a citizen of the world as far as voting goes.
I see the global economy is so interconnected there is or are issues that need to be addressed. we need to clean up our act first.
If the majority of the populace does not agree with the small portion of the 99%  now "occupying" what then? Do you occupy if there is a push back by the rest of the 99%?
 
 
Posts: 153
3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Report post to moderator
OWS is not a political party with an agenda.

It is not a non-profit like Greenpeace.

It is better to think of OWS as a thought, expressed in many diverse actions around the country.

The fact that OWS does not have a "platform" as most people are used to see ing one, is its advantage not its disadvantage.
OWS has changed the political/social discourse. And it has changed the way we feel about our power.
Example:
You have people "Occupying the Board of Education" to protest the emphasis on testing.
"Occupy women" is a group taking up the cause of reproductive and women's health rights.
I am protesting a city which wants to remove some acreage from a wetlands in my community. I am going to suggest to my fellows that we "Occupy" the municipal chambers.

Those of us who have been battling for a better world for years and for decades feel empowered and "high" with the success of OWS. Long may it exist.

Anyone who pays the slightest attention to the various occupy movements can tell what the goals are, what the values are.
It is not some hidden esoteric knowledge available only to the few. 

For example you can listen online Mon-Fri, WBAI.org at 6:30 pm, and hear the voices of OWS.

Whereas, anyone who limits themself to what passes for "media" in this country,  all you will hear and all you will repeat is the bleats of "no goals, no leaders, no good".


ps-- **I am using "you" in the sense of "a person". 
I am not directing my post personally at Atom, altho Atom's post did motivate me to write.

ellen


Atomdari wrote:
i didn't say that they were leftist, communist, or anything else. I tried to write out my point as polite as possible so it wouldn't point fingers.

they are stuck in the train of thought now, of not having an opinion. everyone wants something, some people with more sense and some people with less, all facing in some direction and they haven't yet reached an agreement on a solid modus operandi.

part of that stems from there not being a leader. anyone who steps up as a leader is stepping away from the mood of the movement. The issue is that they are starting to need that leader now. people are interested in changing all levels and facets of society in one way or another. it seems like a prudent time for people to start voting up specific civic leaders that can be mouthpieces for a representation.

the leftists, rightists, and the shades and tones thereof will either agree or disagree, but with a situation where they have a tension building around them, and government and police officials openly looking for ways to undermine and displace them, they need their voices to begin to ring clear on some levels of demands.

i'd be all for joining in on the infrastructure and conservation section.

 
ellen rosner
Posts: 153
3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Report post to moderator

Atomdari wrote:
Anyways. New Orleans has had a 400 person surge in occupiers since the Oakland incident. I've got a test for a job on the 1st, and pass or fail, I'll be out at the park with the rest of them, difference being whether I'll be staying full time, or just supporting when I can.



good for you.
I'd be interested if you get a chance, to hear about occupy in NO.
this is the first I've heard.

good luck with the job test.

ellen
 
ellen rosner
Posts: 153
3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Report post to moderator

Robert Ray wrote:
We have a mission statement:
Now how to accomplish the mission.
In order to carry out the mission what would you do first?
The people are assembled now what?



Robert,
just wonderin'...did you read any of the articles I cited early on in this thread?

Another good article:

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2011/nov/10/zuccotti-park/

and- an insider's view of Occupy Oakland:
http://www.berkeleydailyplanet.com/issue/2011-10-27/article/38683?headline=The-Oakland-Commune-and-the-Planned-General-Strike-News-Analysis---By-Steve-Martinot


really...there is too much information out there for people to be saying"What do they want?"   
 
Robert Ray
gardener
Posts: 2188
Location: Cascades of Oregon
316
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Report post to moderator
Ellen,
Unfortunately the majority of the 99% is limited to what passes as "media" in this country. A different baliwick but something that needs to be addressed as to the media's power to influence the American Political scene. Yet without the meager coverage initially given to the OWS it would have failed to spread as it has. New social media did play a factor in it's spread but can you really place your faith in that type of media without wondering if it is factual or as inaccurate as the normal media.
Civil Disobedience is a long held tradition for bringing issues to the fore in this country and I am thankful for it.
If OWS is just a system of protest  great I understand the civil disobedience aspect. Your occupy involvement to save wetlands identifies your agenda for your particular "Occupy", but you do have an agenda.
If there is no agenda it's just a bunch of people camping on the people's (government owned) property. It truly is the people's patch of ground.
An agenda is a change of the current status quo and as we have seen used Presidentially, regardless of how you feel about the change promised, an effective battle cry but to what end is the change being sought by OWS?
I've been involved in a battle with the county here that has lasted over five years. Commissioners enacted an ordinance, ill conceived. Fighting to allow the people to vote and the people overwhelmingly defeated the ordinance once they got to vote. Yet am still fighting the same battle at the State level now.  I can empathize with those wanting change and what is right.
I feel for the movement to get legs and retain it's effectiveness has to re-enforce it's claim of being the 99%  it will have to develop that 99% acceptance. If it just a  system of how to protest that's ok too. I hope it's more than that and melds into that big movement/change though.
  To really claim that 99% I see really just two things, and would like to see more, that would be the 99% desire and not so ephemeral:
Take the money out of politics (ALEC mentioned earlier is an interesting organization for one to look at).
Make my vote count as Paul has said.
Even here Ludi has identified two agenda items, I'm ok with those two but I don't see those as a complete solution to the issues at hand. New legislation with teeth to make the change is required, yet you claim no OWS agenda exists.
Income distribution mentioned earlier in this post, what does that mean?
A democratic political movement can't remain horizontal you need to reach the top for change to happen otherwise it's just background noise. It could certainly spread horizontally to other groups, but in the end change happens when elected leaders those at the top enact legislation. My opinion here and I am part of the 99% is the rest of the 99% listening? There are more of us out here.
 
Posts: 22
Location: New Orleans presently
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Report post to moderator
i have seen chinks of the reports from the newscasts that have been segmented online. but i don't own a television anymore. I sold it for cash a few months ago, not that i ever watched it anyhow.

i dont think that there isnt a meaning or focus behind the group, but i am saying that without even a short term voted spokesman or a set of official statements going out to leaders, they may as well get all of their info about the movement through fox news.

in savannah my old roommate started up the occupy there, and its a small steady number of people with about 10 visitors each day. the most of them are college age, without any money to go to school, and with the usual 8$ or less an hour job. (you can get by on it, but if you don't already own some land, expect spending a ton on the basics). Locals applaud them, and they know what they are asking for. you'd have to be blind and deaf to not get the idea of whats happening (and with congress now having an approval rating below 9%, its no surprise). Its just the need for those factions to form and start pushing hard for the parts of government that they want to see change.

the zeitgeist movement and a handful of other groups are going after the fed and the red shield banking system, the only problem is that so far they havent started to build an occupy in that front.

the young turks are working to do the basic goals that started the occupy movement. taking corporate money out of politics and requiring caps on things that politicians can receive from donors. they are beginning to form a full nation system to have a real push for a 28th amendment that will take corporate interests further from our politics.

the fair tax group is working on re-framing the tax system so that only new items purchased in the US (i think they don't tax food) are taxed. and you don't pay wage taxes or property taxes. this would bean you would OWN your land permanently once you paid it off, without the yearly property taxes. they haven't been out into the fray much yet.

NORML and the other drug policy alliances have yet to join into one big force and start pushing hard fro drug law reform, even though they could easily do it if they just got people to get up and do something.

the plenitude of conservation organizations have been stuck on small issues as well (I'm not saying the keystone pipeline is small, but the oil companies just keep finding ways to get around the system). coal and oil companies have muddied the water around politicians hard on this ,and without some really hard work to get their efforts away from our current politicians, we wont move the stone here.

it keeps going. i think OWS is going to be a huge marker for our history in the US, assuming people start fighting hard to make sure demands are heard from each SUB-group. because hte points made about the movement being tainted by a leader make a lot of sense.

but it is a digital movement, with a little work, organizers can help to direct people to choose specific topics of focus (taxation, politician pay rates, transportation, energy, environmental concerns) and build swells there. each of these groups can start pushing to effect their democratically decided agendas, without really needing more than short term, appointed leaders for ideas and planning.

with that, i think the system will bend to accommodate the people much more.

damn, does it smell political in here or is that just me?
 
Robert Ray
gardener
Posts: 2188
Location: Cascades of Oregon
316
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Report post to moderator
Ahh, there you have it sub groups and agendas, cells with visionaries (leaders) looking for change.
Are the organizer on the digital front leaders?
But are they, the sub-groups, the true and accurate desires of the 99%
Don't worry the political smell goes away after awhile.
 
Atom Dari
Posts: 22
Location: New Orleans presently
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Report post to moderator
well i guess it's going to be more about the transparency and the volunteerism of the groups.
 
steward
Posts: 36090
Location: missoula, montana (zone 4)
hugelkultur trees chicken wofati bee woodworking
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Report post to moderator
(thanks folks for keeping things respectful)

paul wheaton wrote:
I don't mind folks getting rich.  But I do mind people getting rich by screwing others.  I mind the lack of integrity that is happening to screw people.  I think the government is supposed to protect us from getting screwed by bad guys, but instead they often seem to be in on it.



My ten second summary of all of this.  I think the gubmint is supposed to stop bad guys.  I think bad guys are getting into gubmint due to voting shenanigans.  Therefore, i wish that the "occupy" people had one message of "make my vote count".  

There are ways that the populace can see that their vote is counted, while at the same time maintaining the voting privacy.   And we can take voting shenanigans FAR more seriously.  

I think once the voting stuff is mended, all other things will begin to be mended via good ole voting.  Another way to put it:  I think our current problems cannot be solved without mending the vote stuff.


 
Robert Ray
gardener
Posts: 2188
Location: Cascades of Oregon
316
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Report post to moderator
Hear, hear.... make my vote count.
  Now I truly believe that would garner the true desire of 99%
 
ellen rosner
Posts: 153
3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Report post to moderator
"Form in Front of Content"

"In mere weeks Occupy Wall Street has challenged prevailing perceptions of the U.S. left, the status quo, and the relationship between the two. Overcoming the police suppression and media blackout of its vulnerable beginnings, OWS has absorbed energy and tactics from the Middle East and caromed them across the United States. While many people initially wondered when the NYPD would crush the movement, the discussion now involves, regardless of what happens at Liberty Plaza, what will be occupied next.
...
"While some worry that without demands OWS will dissipate, the movement might dissipate no matter what. Yet, the logic of the movement’s form, its occupation of physical space and its leaderless, consensus-based rejection of establishment institutions, invests it with great potential power. If this movement migrates to the arenas of our everyday lives – our apartment buildings, workplaces, and schools – it can become transformative.  For it to endure, however, it will have to attain a clearer grasp of the system that it is contesting."

http://www.counterpunch.org/2011/10/28/form-in-front-of-content/

 
Robert Ray
gardener
Posts: 2188
Location: Cascades of Oregon
316
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Report post to moderator
Ellen interesting blurb, from that article:
"for it to endure, however it will have to attain a clearer grasp of the system it is contesting"

  My concern exactly.  The current system is based on numbers, one person one vote. The movement can only claim to be a part of the 99% right now.
I can see where a handfull of people claiming to be a legitimate "Occupy group", if there is a way to make that claim, really doing damage to what could be an effective movement.
There is no logic to not directing the powerful energy that could exist if there were a focused result desired. If that is  to encourage interaction with the government entity at city, county, state, national level great.
To direct change the electorate needs direction. Your planned "occupy" to save the wetlands has a clear and defined end point. Our communities success in defeating a County Ordinace was through participation. We flooded the Commisioners meetings with concerned parties and had a clear message. If "occupy" just generates that type of participation it has been a success.
  I can see where your occupy could succeed, you have made a tangible demand. Let's say that you are successful in getting your wetland protection to a vote. Should it fail at the ballot box would you consider it a success? A partial success? Through the currently available process a decision has been reached and the majority has declined to agree. It would be a personal dissapointment  but a clear indication that that "occupy" did not represent the 99%.
To sit down and just say,"I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore ." reminds me of an unhappy child having a fit in a supermarket line. Dealing with an infant that can't verbalize can be difficult. Once I figure out the child wants a drink and is hot I can alleviate the tantrum.  Occupy if it only trains people how to organize and educate voters on specific areas of concern will have been a success.
The bold claims of representing the entire 99% without a clear and defined course might just backfire.
 
pollinator
Posts: 935
Location: Federal Way, WA - Western Washington (Zone 8 - temperate maritime)
77
7
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Report post to moderator
For the 'electorate' to vote intelligently, it would need unbiased information, which, in light of Citizens United decision, is not possible now.  (94% of election/auctions are won by biggest spenders). 

I think the two most commonly mentioned (as also posted here) issues - reinstate Glass-Steagall, and override Citizens United - would be supported by a very large majority of the 99%.  Kudos to 'our' Occupy movement for putting the issues front and center - nothing was every going to happen when 'our reps' are so dependent on big $$ donors.

Actually,  the "Occupation" maybe the critically necessary end-run around the media-owning MoU's!  I think it's kind of 'symbiculturey' - very simple, natural, homemade, communitarian, peaceful, ethical, etc
 
Robert Ray
gardener
Posts: 2188
Location: Cascades of Oregon
316
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Report post to moderator
If only we could get 99% to vote. If occupy does nothing but energize some of those that have been apathetic I'll be happy.
 
nancy sutton
pollinator
Posts: 935
Location: Federal Way, WA - Western Washington (Zone 8 - temperate maritime)
77
7
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Report post to moderator
While considering joining our local corner-standers, I've been composing my signs.... "WE are the 99%! - Now VOTE!)"  and maybe "We are MANY, They are Few... VOTE!"  and a few other good ones  

I used to think that not doing something (anything!) was a form of political activism (albeit passive) in and of itself.  But I've let myself off the hook as I've become older and tireder
 
Posts: 9002
Location: Victoria British Columbia-Canada
692
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Report post to moderator
  My brother Jeffrey and I are very close politically. We both adhere to a live and let die Darwinist point of view and believe that hard work far is more likely to get you somewhere than any amount of whining.

  So imagine my surprise when I see him on television as Victoria's representative for the occupy the sidewalks campaign. He led a cameraman on a tour of the now dripping wet campsite that doesn't seem nearly as fun and entertaining now that the weather has turned. Jeff explained what each tent was for. Media, first aid, food, information etc. and gave the guy a basic rundown of various demands being made by Victoria's idle class.

  When I caught up to him today I had to ask, "why you". Jeff operates a food forest on the Yucatán Peninsula in Mexico but he's here working in Canada for a while. Seeing that a tent city already existed he decided this would be a great spot to stay while visiting Victoria. The local news van pulled up unexpectedly when none of the usual representatives of the "poverty industry" were available, so Jeff stepped in. He told me they couldn't find anybody else who was articulate enough to put in front of the camera so he was elected by default. So there he was a young man who says he would like to give most of these bums a kick in the ass and he's their voice to the world.

    Overall he did a pretty good job. He tried to steer things towards bank reform, agricultural policy etc. and to downplay things like jet contrails and the fact that our Prime Minister is a Dick. They all seemed happy with his performance and he met several cute hippie chicks.
 
Robert Ray
gardener
Posts: 2188
Location: Cascades of Oregon
316
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Report post to moderator
Dale's brother is part of the 99%. One of the things I have worried about, so many group meetings with no clear clear definition of a spokesperson/message.
Was Jeffery part of the 99%, yes.
Is what he did right? He steered the discussion to bank reform and agriculture so maybe.
If not Jeffery who? Does Jeffery's voice count at all?
I'm not defending his actions just pointing out what I have been worried about.

I will have to admit ( I don't always agree with some of Dale's posts) I do believe removing safety lables off of everything will speed Darwinism up a bit.

 
ellen rosner
Posts: 153
3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Report post to moderator
apparently my post was deleted
i guess it was not sufficiently "nice"

so let me just say, that I think Integrity is a good thing.
and that pretending to be someone you are not, is duplicitous.

How's that? 
 
Robert Ray
gardener
Posts: 2188
Location: Cascades of Oregon
316
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Report post to moderator
Is it duplicitous to claim representation of 99%?
Integrity is indeed a good thing!
 
Dale Hodgins
Posts: 9002
Location: Victoria British Columbia-Canada
692
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Report post to moderator
Jeff moved into the campground simply out of convenience. They've had many entertaining musical performances, dancers and other fun events which attract people of all political stripes. Overall it's been quite a festive atmosphere with none of the doom and gloom I see on American TV. Anyone who finds themselves in a desperate situation in this country has numerous avenues of publicly funded help open to them.

     Jeff had no intention of stealing the thunder from anyone in our multilayered "poverty industry". It was an opportunity thing, like when the bus driver dies and some passenger takes the wheel.

   Most Canadians have much less to complain about than do Americans. We have a far more generous social safety net and our economy hasn't fallen apart. That is probably why Victoria's little protests seems to only include people who have chosen to live on the fringes of society.

    I recognize many of them from other protests. The University of Victoria had a huge problem with feral rabbits and some of these people were part of a protest to prevent the University from dealing with this problem.

    For years we've had many who choose to live in public parks and boulevards while homeless shelters sit under utilized. Many have migrated to the only interesting thing happening in our tourist town this time of year.

     Jeff tells me that the complaints he hears most often are nothing to do with monetary policy, civil rights wages etc. Instead they're making demands to improve the creature comforts of their little tent city which resides in the public square at City Hall. They want some permanent water lines, better bathrooms and some sort of recreation hall. Some are quite upset about the state of affairs. Apparently the government is responsible for the fact that it gets cold and wet in the winter and camping isn't nearly as much fun.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------  On a more serious note and leaving my prodigal brother out of it, there are many legal issues which I would like to see addressed. All of them would tend to level the playing field or even slant it in favor of the little guy at the expense of the big guy.

    We have many laws in Canada which prevent small farmers from freely producing food. There are marketing boards which control the production of eggs, milk, frying chickens, ducks and duck eggs, potatoes, carrots, beets, lettuce, celery, tomatoes, peppers and cucumbers. Those are the ones I remember. If I were to raise 1000 chickens without purchasing quota the legal and financial ramifications would be greater than if I were to walk out into the street and assault the next person I see. To me this is despicable and if I said what should be done about it I would be paid a visit by CISIS (Canada's version of homeland security).

    I would also like to see changes in our building code which would give citizens a greater opportunity to become self-sufficient while reducing their environmental footprint.

    I would like to see strict foreign ownership laws enacted so that our resources may be protected. Long-term, Canadians are at much greater risk of American invasion for resources than from any other foreign threat. We are currently allowing the sale of resources and it's not because of any dire financial need. It serves to make a few rich while it makes the average citizen poorer. As a function of our population we are very wealthy in this regard having the world's second largest oil reserve, vast untapped mineral resources and so much timber that forest fire is allowed to consume a huge percentage of useful trees.

    So there's plenty I would like to see changed.

    But I will never be in favor of handing money or resources to nonproductive members of society. The protests in my country are largely centered around their needs and demands and not around the important structural changes in our legal system and the economy that would require us to think and make real changes which would have long-term social, financial and ecological ramifications.
 
pollinator
Posts: 940
Location: Stevensville, MT
30
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Report post to moderator
Paul and Jocelyn talk about "greed" in this podcast: http://www.richsoil.com/permaculture/455-podcast-085-greed/
 
Tyler Ludens
pollinator
Posts: 11827
Location: Central Texas USA Latitude 30 Zone 8
1135
cat forest garden fish trees chicken fiber arts wood heat greening the desert
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Report post to moderator

Dale Hodgins wrote:
But I will never be in favor of handing money or resources to nonproductive members of society. The protests in my country are largely centered around their needs and demands and not around the important structural changes in our legal system and the economy that would require us to think and make real changes which would have long-term social, financial and ecological ramifications.



In my region the protests are largely centered around the fact that billions of dollars are being handed to the nonproductive members of society called "banks" and "transnational corporations."  The productive members of society  - the middle class and the working poor - would like to see those dollars used in a more productive way.

 
Dale Hodgins
Posts: 9002
Location: Victoria British Columbia-Canada
692
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Report post to moderator
    My earlier comments only reflect the irritating nature of Victorias street population. My country is not horribly mis-managed, we have not had a banking meltdown and just about anyone who has planned their lives sensibly is doing just fine.We're seeing  quite a bit of spill over of activism that totally makes sense south of the boarder. We have wisely disengaged from Afghanistan and we never went to Iraq .So our problems are different and not nearly so severe.

   The US has seen it's power and control shrink in recent years. In the 60s, about half of world economic activity was American or related to American corporate activity abroad. It is quite likely that within the next 30 years this will settle out at 15% or so.

   At one time anyone with half a brain could do well in an ever expanding economy.Those days are gone. As other nations become industrial,they will hold onto resources for domestic use and the availabe  plunder will taper off. Thus your average American will be on a level playing field with billions of others around the globe.This is already fostering a generational income gap which is likely to continue for a while.

   Overpopulation could be the new reality as compitition for resources becomes more domestic in nature.

   With all the changes which are likely, it's time to examine  the cost/benifit of foerign wars and to admit to the the financial nature of these conflicts. America won the arms race with the Soviets but is now slowly losing the peace.

   Once the banking stuff settles out and everyone goes home, the much more important task of developing an economy free of the military industrial mindset must begin if America's youth are ever to find their place in a world that they will be unable to dominate. The money to invest is there,but it's currently being shoveled into a giant hole that will never be filled.

     
 
Dale Hodgins
Posts: 9002
Location: Victoria British Columbia-Canada
692
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Report post to moderator
I stumbled upon this dormant thread today. Passions were running high. Deletions were rampant.

So far as I know, I'm the only participant who went down to the thing and conducted interviews.
In reading through it again, it brings back memories of windshield fliers, dripping wet protesters and collapsed, drenched tents and sleeping gear. I eventually loaded my brothers crap into my van and hauled it to somewhere dry.

Victoria's protest ended with a whimper. News vans drove by, kids called their moms for pick up, some people got their jobs back. City hall was mudded up pretty bad. Garbage and the stench of piss permeated every crevice of the courtyard. A few pregnancies were reported.

Our professional protesters now have something with some meat on it to play with. They're protesting a plan to pipe oil to the US and to British Columbia's coast. It's a good, identifiable cause and it will be pretty easy to determine success or failure.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I wonder if there are any Americans, Europeans or members from other regions, who would like to give your take on where this all led in your region. Do you think anything was accomplished ? What was it ? Have any potential political leaders emerged from it ? Do you think that your protesters represented their cause well ?
 
pollinator
Posts: 1703
Location: Western Washington
22
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Report post to moderator
Dale,

Thank you for bumping this thread. I think the occupy movement and its lack of accomplishment was a really interesting spectacle. At the time I was living as far out there as one can get in the lower 48. I didn't hear about it until at least a week in. I thought It was very exiting that people from around the world where staging mass sit in protests. It was amazing.

Then the local solidarity meetings started. Yikes

Feel Good potlucks with expensive industrial organic chips, everybody driving into town (single occupancy as often as not) to talk and make signs and gossip and complain. I was getting some contact with civilization at that point via working farmers markets. I hate badly conceived protest signs

My thoughts where that the best way to show solidarity with what I felt was a legitimate movement was to stop supporting Wall Street or any large institution that one opposes via financial means. Don't give them your money. Don't give them your time. I was encouraging everyone to quite there jobs. Just to remind everyone where the power really was.

I am shocked how effective the establishment has been at ignoring it though. I guess that's because they know people are creatures of habit and until we change our habits they've got us by the stomach. I have sense some very disturbing uses of force against protestors. I like it not at all. In many of the instances none was being violent in the least unlike in Seattle back in 99,

I am still unable to believe the total lack of public discourse this spawned within the halls of power.

I also wonder why I haven't heard more uproar about a plan to ship coal through my state to china. That also seems like a pretty identifiable cause with quantifiable results.
 
Robert Ray
gardener
Posts: 2188
Location: Cascades of Oregon
316
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Report post to moderator
Perhaps something similar to N.C.'s Moral Mondays will be more effective. I still believe that a horizontal movement just spread out over the tidal flats what is needed is a torrent to cut a channel. Had it been a true 99% things would have changed.
 
nancy sutton
pollinator
Posts: 935
Location: Federal Way, WA - Western Washington (Zone 8 - temperate maritime)
77
7
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Report post to moderator
Well, how about Financial Permaculture?

http://www.financialpermaculture.com/2008hwald/documentary

Pretty grassroots... and I think the Occupy Movement only facilitates the success of these efforts... it lit a bright, albeit singular and temporary, spotlight on the shadow hiding heart of the problem; gave important facts a label, i.e., '1% vs 99%', 'debt money', etc, (without an understandable name, a thing does not exist in human culture); spawned "Strike Debt" which cuts to financialization's core, etc., etc. I think it was a heroic moment (ala our own 1999 'Battle in Seattle' against the WTO) which cannot be erased, and still lives in various forms.

For those who viscerally detest the 'hippie' aspect of anything, remember that the nature-and-peace-loving, communal 'hippie' sentiments of the 60's panicked the MoU's into issuing the Powell Memo, and starting the anti-labor, corporate takover, and financialization-expansion trends which really got traction in the 80's. And here we are. The Eisenhower-identified military/defense lobby cannot allow a "Make peace not war" propensity to infect the electorate.

BTW, as one who was passing out warning flyers re: electronic voting fraud to raise the alarm in 2003, I obviously think fixing the voting system is absolutely critical, but not a silver bullet. As we can see, there are other ways to rig the election.... the current targeted voter suppression measures. But, also, as long as trusting citizens are fed lies by the plutocrats' psychologically-savvy, political marketing machine, via a corporate/billionaire owned media, we still have an insurmoutable problem.

I'm hoping that the permaculture/transition/holistic mgmt/regen/holzer, etc., etc. edifice (with kudos to our grandfather/mother 'hippies' - ps they were originally called 'fringies' here in Seattle, which sounds more like permies :) that is rising all over the place, under the radar right now, will provide the 'pictures' of a feasible option to the current 'there is no alternative' business-as-usual meme. A prominent marketer once said that when folks "SEE a picture", the situation changes (hence the power of TV). (Got to go 'see' what Paul's doing on his farm, now :)

But.... Financial Permaculture may be one of the biggest, heaviest bricks in our rising edifice :) and most threatening to TPTB.


 
Posts: 1947
Location: Southern New England, seaside, avg yearly rainfall 41.91 in, zone 6b
80
forest garden fungi trees books chicken bee
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Report post to moderator
http://news.providencejournal.com/breaking-news/2013/09/providence-rally-urges-end-to-surveillance-of-citizens-ready.html

Occupy Providence is still in existence and working for change. It was a great opportunity for passionate advocates to get to know each other here. I spoke on behalf of them at a rally last Friday about privacy and surveillance

The financial permaculture idea is really exciting!

Something has got to be done. It feels like end times to me lately. I spend most of my energy preparing to survive, spending all my time protesting is too optimistic for me.


 
nancy sutton
pollinator
Posts: 935
Location: Federal Way, WA - Western Washington (Zone 8 - temperate maritime)
77
7
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Report post to moderator
To reinforce all of the preceding posts in this thread, here is another step in the right direction...ala financial permaculture, et al. Brett Scott's book is "Heretic's Guide to Global Finance: Hacking the Future of Money", and here is an interesting article he wrote, based on permaculture.

http://www.suitpossum.blogspot.com/
 
I have gone to look for myself. If I should return before I get back, keep me here with this tiny ad:
Tour of Wheaton Labs, the Movie! - now available!
https://permies.com/w/tour
    Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic