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Wofati 10x10

 
Sam Barber
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Here are some of the initial designs for a third, smaller wofati. This is a rough picture without the end walls, shell, umbrella, and mass.
wofati82.png
[Thumbnail for wofati82.png]

If no one from the future comes to stop you is it really that bad of a decision?

 
Sam Barber
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Here is the sketchup file of the wofati 10x10
Filename: wofati-.821.skp
File size: 6 megabytes

If no one from the future comes to stop you is it really that bad of a decision?

 
Jesse Biggs
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I've been fiddlin' with this idea too. Here are some of my thoughts mostly in the form of sketchup-made images.

I made all the "logs" rectangular to speed modeling up.

I was thinking it might be faster to simply run all the roof logs all the way to the ground, that way when the roof has been constructed the walls are done too.
tinywofatiI.jpg
[Thumbnail for tinywofatiI.jpg]
tinywofatiII.jpg
[Thumbnail for tinywofatiII.jpg]
tinywofatiIII.jpg
[Thumbnail for tinywofatiIII.jpg]

some of what I'm up to: http://www.permies.com/t/34620/projects/acre

 
Jesse Biggs
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Then all that's left is to frame up the ends in a more standard way. Seems like Paul wants lots of light inside so this would include lots of glazing.
tinywofatiIV.jpg
[Thumbnail for tinywofatiIV.jpg]
framed out with lot of glass
tinywofatiV.jpg
[Thumbnail for tinywofatiV.jpg]
from the inside
tinywofati12.jpg
[Thumbnail for tinywofati12.jpg]
winter time sans forest

some of what I'm up to: http://www.permies.com/t/34620/projects/acre

 
Sam Barber
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I had a similar idea originally but paul nixed it. One thing is that there is a lot more would with dirt on top of it which means you will need more reinforcement for the roof.

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Sam Barber
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Also where would you attach the retaining walls?

If no one from the future comes to stop you is it really that bad of a decision?

 
Jesse Biggs
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This was my response to two stipulations: VERY fast & VERY cheap

I bet at such a tiny scale, this setup is stouter than the bigger wofatis already built. You're spanning ~5' at 45 degrees.

Also you'd be doing away with roof to wall, and wall to post connections... fewer screws/pegs.

I wonder if we could get Tim in on the convo.


some of what I'm up to: http://www.permies.com/t/34620/projects/acre

 
Jesse Biggs
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Sam Barber wrote:Also where would you attach the retaining walls?



I think you're referring to the wing/retaining walls?

Again I can't help but think roof=wall=retaining wall all in one move.

This is giving me another idea, I'll draw it up.

some of what I'm up to: http://www.permies.com/t/34620/projects/acre

 
Jesse Biggs
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Here's another round of the "nixed" version. There are even fewer posts and beams and the roof eave to ground angle has been changed to make for better piling-on and retaining of thick earthen roof stuffs.
tinywofati13.jpg
[Thumbnail for tinywofati13.jpg]
tinywofati14.jpg
[Thumbnail for tinywofati14.jpg]
tinywofati15.jpg
[Thumbnail for tinywofati15.jpg]

some of what I'm up to: http://www.permies.com/t/34620/projects/acre

 
Jesse Biggs
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...and with finished end bits...
tinywofati16.jpg
[Thumbnail for tinywofati16.jpg]

some of what I'm up to: http://www.permies.com/t/34620/projects/acre

 
Miles Flansburg
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Hey Jesse, Since you are so good at doing those drawings could you do a quick one for me?

Have you ever seen a hogan?

I have always thought that logs stacked log cabin style, in an octagon , might work in this wofati application.
The roof is sort of a dome ,formed by stacking shorter and shorter logs. At the top a square box with windows on four sides would finish it up, sticking out of the dirt, letting in light and used for ventilation. Wings could be built in as the front walls were being built.
If the joints were done right you might not even have to use all of the pins and such, so less expense.
Seems like a bunch of 6 to 8 foot logs could be stacked pretty quickly, and would be pretty strong?
Not sure how long the logs would have to be to equal a 10X10 space?
Would something like that work?

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Jesse Biggs
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Miles, I'll see if I can work something like that up. It might take me a day or two. I'm not sure the hogan version fits in Paul's definition...

"wofati definition

1) every drop of rain must always have a complete downhill soil path. Encountering the edge of the roof is not okay.
2) There are two layers of polyethylene. The lower layer, which hugs the structure, and the upper layer, which defines the thermal mass that surrounds the structure. The upper layer must cover at least twice as much square feet as the available square feet in the structure.
3) The uphill side has at least three open trenches to move water around the structure.
4) The uphill side has a roof that extends at least three feet beyond the exterior wall.
5) There is at least four inches of dirt between the two layers of polyethylene. There is at least sixteen inches of dirt on the top layer of polyethylene.
6) The inner pole structure is made of logs.
7) No treated wood is used in any of the structure.
All polyethylene is surrounded on both sides by at least 10 sheets of newspaper. If the wood shell is unmilled logs or poles, much more newspaper must be used."

... so I'll post it on this thread wofati sheds / shelters when I do.

I spent a school semester down on the Navajo rez and got to see all kinds of primitive native structures. That's a harsh hot and cold desert environment and the hogan worked for them for many years.

some of what I'm up to: http://www.permies.com/t/34620/projects/acre

 
Miles Flansburg
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OK Thanks!

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R Scott
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I love the look of the A frame sticking out of the hillside.

No idea how it compares for ease of construction or strength. How does it compare for maximum log length needed?

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I am interested in this for sure. This would be a sweet little project to get up quick and move in.

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mike jastram
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Sam,

We're pretty pumped to see and hopefully help out a lot with the 10x10! I'm curious if you or anyone else could elaborate a little on what the planned changes are for this build vs 0.7 and 0.8? Paul made it pretty clear that speed and low cost are high priorities (I think he said something in the range of $100 mat'l cost in the update?), and I think you mentioned somewhere that he wants to keep the retaining walls straight (as your CAD shows). Any other important bits I could work on wrapping my head around?
 
Sam Barber
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So a few things are going to be changed. The attachment of the walls is going to be simpler. the wing walls will be smaller and will stick straight out at a 90 degree angle from the wall of the house this will help to blend the wofati into the landscape more making it less intrusive on the beauty of nature. The goal is to use less fasteners when building the walls thus lowering the cost of the structure in both 0.7 and 0.8 the fastener costs have been a large expense in the build. We will be experimenting with this technique in the berm sheds that we will be building later this year. I hope this answered your question.
-Sam

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mike jastram
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Very cool, sure does. Thanks!
 
Sam Barber
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Here is the updated model of the Wofati 10x10
Filename: wofati.8210.skp
File size: 2 megabytes

If no one from the future comes to stop you is it really that bad of a decision?

 
Sam Barber
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Here is a screen shot of the updated design I basically added in some extra roof support in this design. One of the picture is a cutaway of the interior.
wofati...png
[Thumbnail for wofati...png]
wofati....png
[Thumbnail for wofati....png]

If no one from the future comes to stop you is it really that bad of a decision?

 
paul wheaton
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I merged your stuff with the following thread. I hope that is okay by you.

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From Sam's photos at the base camp:

Sam Barber wrote:I am currently working on the designs for the Wofati 0.82 Which will be a 100 square ft wofati. This is a photo of the wofati sans shell, umbrella and dirt.
-Sam




and

Sam Barber wrote:Another view of the wofati plans.

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Jesse,

One of the things I want to move to is making good use of trees that are being thinned out. A lot of woodland is being thinned with the idea of "reducing fuel load". So the little poles are cut, piled and burned. I like the idea of the wofati to mostly use those poles.

I very much like the idea of reducing hardware as much as possible. Far more than in wofati 0.7 and 0.8. We still need beefy logs, I would just like to have fewer of them.

I think your design is very good if your "roof" wood is a large diameter.

I would be tempted to make the soil over the lower roof wood thicker, and I think the wood would not be able to support that. So your design works, I would just need to add a note "don't make the soil thicker here!"





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Sam Barber
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Added the outer wall support logs.
Filename: wofati.8210.skp
File size: 2 megabytes
wofati.....png
[Thumbnail for wofati.....png]

If no one from the future comes to stop you is it really that bad of a decision?

 
paul wheaton
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Here is my feeble attempt to draw what I think is "better".

On the left is what was done with wofati 0.7 and 0.8. The wall logs were bigger and fastened.

With the 10x10, I want to use small, unpeeled poles. And a pole will hold them in place as they get loaded in. No fasteners.
cheaper-log-walls.jpg
[Thumbnail for cheaper-log-walls.jpg]

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paul wheaton
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These "little poles" are easier to harvest, easier to move and easier to put in place. They are far more plentiful. And far easier to grow back.

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Slightly OT, but the pics of Paul in place of the "generic" person in these Sketchup models is priceless! Love the purple hat, too!

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Sam Barber
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Made some modifications to the design: Extended the eaves of the wofati out to 5ft, Added in supports for those eaves.
wof1010.png
[Thumbnail for wof1010.png]
wof101010.png
[Thumbnail for wof101010.png]

If no one from the future comes to stop you is it really that bad of a decision?

 
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So tim and kristies walls: using pins for each



Pauls wall idea: main beams plus secondary posts to load "stick" type wood in, thus requiring no pins



Am i understanding that correct?

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With Paul's new design (small log wall sandwiched between two poles), are there any concerns with settling or have they already been addressed by the underlying foundation somehow?
 
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Sean Kibler wrote:With Paul's new design (small log wall sandwiched between two poles), are there any concerns with settling or have they already been addressed by the underlying foundation somehow?


There are concerns about settling that is why we are trying this out on the wofati 10x10 first so that we can see what happens.

If no one from the future comes to stop you is it really that bad of a decision?

 
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At this point is there anything about the wofati design that is not scalable to larger structures? I'm thinking 1000-2000 sq ft. I suppose some folks might be interested in a second floor but I personally have no interest in that besides maybe storage/crawl space.

What kind of lifetime is such a structure expected to have? I know it is largely theory at this point but are we talking at least outlasting matchstick homes?

My wife and I are seeking refuge from traditional homes, lifestyle, debt servitude and all the other nasty that comes along with "the American dream" and I was very interested in the monolithic dome homes and earthships while she really likes underground homes. Wofati seems like it meets both needs in the right ways and WAY cheaper, possibly by order(s) of magnitude.

If there is a compiled resource with answers to these kind of questions I haven't found it so I would surely appreciate a point in that direction.
 
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The "O" in "wofati" is a tip of the hat to mike oehler because the wofati is based, in large part, on his designs. Here is his original structure which he built for $50 and is still standing strong 40 years later.



As for scaling for size, there are many oehler structures that are 1800 square feet or larger. As for wofati: 0.8 is 800 square feet.

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paul wheaton
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As I was visiting the site today, I was thinking about how we were hoping that this wofati might be built in two days. After all, Sepp builds his structures in one day. But so far it has been ... five days? And the roof wood isn't done yet.

Holes are being drilled in the roof logs so that a rebar pin can be put in to hold the log in place.

Part of the wofati design is to have something that is FAST to build. And cheap! Rebar has costs.

Sepp spends thousands on EPDM and felt.

I would like to get to a design for a 10x10 that can be built in two days and costs less than $200.

So, should we try to build another 10x10, then I would like to try this design change: make the top flat. No more rebar for attaching the roof. Then lay the plastic on the roof and lay some dirt on top of that to make a gable shape. Then another layer of plastic (in the gable shape) and then continue as before. The side walls would be much higher than our current design. Ten feet or so.



10x10-simpler-roof.png
[Thumbnail for 10x10-simpler-roof.png]

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paul wheaton
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One of the things we are shooting for is to be able to be warm all winter without any added heat. Using the heat from the summer to heat the structure through the winter.

One of the things we have learned from wofati 0.7 is that we might be losing a lot of heat through the non-mass walls. They are insulated, but not particularly well.

The eaves on all wofati are currently at 5 feet, although I think that 3 feet would be sufficient. 2 feet would be a bare minimum. The first thought is that we might be able to cobble together a flimsy "porch" wall. Something with a lot of glass. It could have some insulation.

So, for the existing 10x10, it is possible that we could create something "porch-ish" where the porch is three feet wide (and this might leave only a foot and a half under the eaves).

For a future 10x10, we could build something that has an extra five feet on either end and then the "porch" could be six and a half feet wide.
10x10-longer.png
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kadence blevins
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As to the squared roof. Perhaps this could be done with a sort of round hogan roof deal? Use up that smaller wood you want to utilize.

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kadence blevins
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Like this..?

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paul wheaton
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Adding some hogan-esque things could be interesting. Certainly good art/aesthetic points. But it would be slower.

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