Heating an old barn...

Hi Everyone!
Well I finally did it, I purchased a hobby farm after years of urbansteading I off to try my hands at homesteading and permies has give me such a wealth of information just from lurking in the forums. Now it is time for me raise my hand and ask for some help or just throw ideas I have out there and see what happens. After reading through a rocket stove book I feel much enlightened and think I can make this happen by first doing a trial phase on a small 10x12 shed. There I plan to test my new found knowledge, I'll keep it simple as I just want to warm the area and use the mass as a workbench. I live in Wisconsin, tonight's temp is a balmy -12 degrees.

After the workshop it is on to the barn...here is where I would like some guidance...the barn is a typical two story structure...very drafty, but I have almost unlimited access to MDF plywood and paint so I think I can stop the drafts....anyone ever worked with a barn in this way I would love to hear your input.
it is about 36 x 36. I don't know the height of the ceiling yet, but it has a full loft (or 2nd floor since it is not open).... tbc.. gray water problem.... and I thought I was busy at my old job anyway I plan to have a small cow (Dexter) on the farm and maybe a goat or two, chickens etc so may there is a plan to accomadate them but that's not in the parameters of this discussion.

I plan to use multiple stoves to stagger the workload to keep the barn at a constant 70+ degrees. I may build one, test, duplicate if there isn't a known way to factor the potential heating capabilities.

There will be big water tanks downstairs I read somewhere water has around 2 times as much mass, I'll confirm that but if so I would love to heat the fish water. Keep in mind I'm more techy than permie right now so I am very comfortable in automating a way to keep the temp at 70 once the process takes place.


I would like to keep the barn warm all the time. I've got a lot woods near by and think I sustain the wood or switch to a vegetable oil as a backup. I tend to think the biggest problem will be to tighten down this old ship. Ah I didn't mention I plan on using the top of the barn for aquaponics. I will go through my mental layout of the barn...keep in mind this is lucid...we are all on the ground floor here.
******non rocketmass stove info here****
The top of the barn is to be aquaponics to substantially feed the family. I would like this to be year round and the engine to generate this is the fish...everyone says talipia..who am I to argue...I was start at the beginning at figure things out from there....I like trout or salmon myself. The talipia needs to be at a temp of 70 for the water. I've been doing hydroponics in my apartment in the city with good results. That was 8 square feet, but the automation worked very well and should be easy to duplicate/refine.
*******end non rocktmass info*****

I have other out buildings to house the animals so I don't have to use space in the barn for them in need be.

any and all comments welcomed. I would like to start soon as possible but scavenging the parts will take a bout a month or two so until then I am planning, planning, planning. I figure why keep to my own ideas when there is such a wealth of information on this site.

Thanks


I work at a cabinet manufacturing company and there is tons of sawdust for the taking. I'm thinking I can somehow use that sawdust as insulation. I'm thinking I could staple tar paper and maybe some quarter inch paneling (tons of that stuff too...if you're ever in mid Wisconsin and looking for some panels let me know) to form a vapor/solid barrier and then pack sawdust in there really tight. I could then put some half inch plywood to form the interior wall.

Currently the barn consists of a dirt floor...I assumed it was concrete before. The walls from the bottom to the top.... stones and masonry(?) @5-6 ft then cinderblock @ around 10ft then vertical wood siding to the roof that has tar shingles I believe.

I investigated again the morning before having to go to town to run errands. The wife came with and we had a very nice breakfast. I will post pics in the morning of everything.

Very nice Damian. Are you wanting to keep the barn warm almost all the time, or do you mainly just want to have it warm when you want to use it? I can envision a possible mix of both. Things to keep in mind, the longer your duct work to draw the exhaust gasses through to store heat, the more velocity you will lose. If you want to to be very long you can counter this by having a higher than common heat riser. Some ideas, perhaps two smaller RMHs may meet your needs better than a single larger one. You may also build a mass heater to keep the temp a bit higher in the barn most of the time and then augment that with one or more pocket rockets. If you only want it warm when you are using the barn you may do well with just pocket rockets.

Damian Jones wrote:Hi Everyone!
Well I finally did it, I purchased a hobby farm

Congrats! you are where I want to be.... well the have some land part, maybe not the location

after years of urbansteading I off to try my hands at homesteading and permies has give me such a wealth of information just from lurking in the forums. Now it is time for me raise my hand and ask for some help or just throw ideas I have out there and see what happens. After reading through a rocket stove book I feel much enlightened and think I can make this happen by first doing a trial phase on a small 10x12 shed. There I plan to test my new found knowledge, I'll keep it simple as I just want to warm the area and use the mass as a workbench. I live in Wisconsin, tonight's temp is a balmy -12 degrees.

After the workshop it is on to the barn...here is where I would like some guidance...the barn is a typical two story structure...very drafty, but I have almost unlimited access to MDF plywood and paint so I think I can stop the drafts....anyone ever worked with a barn in this way I would love to hear your input. it is about 36 x 36. I don't know the height of the ceiling yet, but it has a full loft (or 2nd floor since it is not open).... tbc.. gray water problem.

I think for people to add input, they need know what the barn will be used for. Drafts are good too... to a point. Are you going to use it as a barn? Animal housing? Living space? Mass heaters are great for living spaces because there are people in it all the time. You want it heated 24 hours pretty much. For a workshop that is only heated when it is used, you want the fast heat of something with more metal. A RMH without the mass, but with a second radiator for example. Even in Russia where high mass heaters are the norm they use iron boxes for temporary heating of shops and such. Can the upper floor be closed from the lower? will the upper and lower floor be used for the same thing? If you are using it as a shop, do you want/need to heat the whole area? or would a smaller heated area be better? Would dual zones make sense? Say keeping the whole building above freezing, but some workspace comfortable.

Damion Jones : Welcome to Permies.com, our sister site richsoil.com, and a big Welcome to the Rocket and Wood Stoves Forum/Threads. With ~21,000 members~, you can
come here 24 / 7 and find someone who wants to talk about what you want to talk about !

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Tonight we will see a balmy -8, and have your weather in spades tomorrow night!

Keep coming back here, If there is a RMH in your future we will help you find and build IT ! For the Good of The Craft ! Big AL !

Thanks Mike for such a quick response.
I would like to keep the barn warm all the time. I've got a lot woods near by and think I sustain the wood or switch to a vegetable oil as a backup. I tend to think the biggest problem will be to tighten down this old ship. Ah I didn't mention I plan on using the top of the barn for aquaponics. I will go through my mental layout of the barn...keep in mind this is lucid...we are all on the ground floor here.
******non rocketmass stove info here****
The top of the barn is to be aquaponics to substantially feed the family. I would like this to be year round and the engine to generate this is the fish...everyone says talipia..who am I to argue...I was start at the beginning at figure things out from there....I like trout or salmon myself. The talipia needs to be at a temp of 70 for the water. I've been doing hydroponics in my apartment in the city with good results. That was 8 square feet, but the automation worked very well and should be easy to duplicate/refine.
*******end non rocktmass info*****

I have other out buildings to house the animals so I don't have to use space in the barn for them in need be.

Mike Paulus wrote:Very nice Damian. Are you wanting to keep the barn warm almost all the time, or do you mainly just want to have it warm when you want to use it? I can envision a possible mix of both. Things to keep in mind, the longer your duct work to draw the exhaust gasses through to store heat, the more velocity you will lose. If you want to to be very long you can counter this by having a higher than common heat riser. Some ideas, perhaps two smaller RMHs may meet your needs better than a single larger one. You may also build a mass heater to keep the temp a bit higher in the barn most of the time and then augment that with one or more pocket rockets. If you only want it warm when you are using the barn you may do well with just pocket rockets.

Damian Jones wrote:Thanks Mike for such a quick response.
I would like to keep the barn warm all the time. I've got a lot woods near by and think I sustain the wood or switch to a vegetable oil as a backup. I tend to think the biggest problem will be to tighten down this old ship. Ah I didn't mention I plan on using the top of the barn for aquaponics. I will go through my mental layout of the barn...keep in mind this is lucid...we are all on the ground floor here.

While not out of the question, water is heavy, mass is also heavy.... To keep water warm you would want the water thermally connected to the mass. Would the floor support that? or are you planning on building something to support it? (masonry stove guys use a cinder block tower under their heaters as a foundation) Or a rocket powered water heater could be used. In this case the water becomes the mass... speaking of which, water stores heat better than most mass in a heater, this means a rock or cob mass big enough to stabilize a tank of water might have to be much bigger (4 times?) than the water volume.

******non rocketmass stove info here****
The top of the barn is to be aquaponics to substantially feed the family. I would like this to be year round and the engine to generate this is the fish...everyone says talipia..who am I to argue...I was start at the beginning at figure things out from there....I like trout or salmon myself. The talipia needs to be at a temp of 70 for the water. I've been doing hydroponics in my apartment in the city with good results. That was 8 square feet, but the automation worked very well and should be easy to duplicate/refine.
*******end non rocktmass info*****

Tilapia tastes fine, does well in more stagnant water than trout, salmon probably need more space and feeder fish too. Tilapia meat separates from the bones almost as easy as salmon. So It is probably easier to keep the water at 70F in a small tank than provide higher circulation at 40F. Also salmon start to rot as soon as they hit fresh water, so you would have to maintain the salt level too.

I have other out buildings to house the animals so I don't have to use space in the barn for them in need be.

In general, animals provide warmth, northern cultures kept their animals in the living space for this reason. Their manure and bedding straw will produce heat as well. They don't need the warmth your fish will need though or even what I would need to be comfortable.

Got it... Thanks

allen lumley wrote:Damion Jones : Welcome to Permies.com, our sister site richsoil.com, and a big Welcome to the Rocket and Wood Stoves Forum/Threads. With ~21,000 members~, you can
come here 24 / 7 and find someone who wants to talk about what you want to talk about !

Location, location location, look at your Signature/name-space and L@@K at mine! At the right top of this page is the Permies Toolbox. Find, and clickon> the Button marked
"My Profile", you need to locate the signature Or Name Line so that you can Add a general location, climate Zone Number, Annual rainfall and Elevation if you are as far North
as Madison !

Len Ovens wrote:
While not out of the question, water is heavy, mass is also heavy.... To keep water warm you would want the water thermally connected to the mass. Would the floor support that? or are you planning on building something to support it? (masonry stove guys use a cinder block tower under their heaters as a foundation) Or a rocket powered water heater could be used. In this case the water becomes the mass... speaking of which, water stores heat better than most mass in a heater, this means a rock or cob mass big enough to stabilize a tank of water might have to be much bigger (4 times?) than the water volume.

I looks to be a heavy concrete floor in the barn so I think almost anything I can fit in there would work, but I will try to find some information on recommended loads for a concrete base if need be.

In general, animals provide warmth, northern cultures kept their animals in the living space for this reason. Their manure and bedding straw will produce heat as well. They don't need the warmth your fish will need though or even what I would need to be comfortable.

I worried more about having the animals go from 70+ degrees to -20. Maybe they are smart enough to want to stay in...I can only hope.

Damian Jones wrote:
I looks to be a heavy concrete floor in the barn so I think almost anything I can fit in there would work, but I will try to find some information on recommended loads for a concrete base if need be.

I thought you said the water works were going to be on top. I was thinking wood floor. If it is the lowest floor there should be no problems. If the concrete floor is suspended, I am not sure.

In general, animals provide warmth, northern cultures kept their animals in the living space for this reason. Their manure and bedding straw will produce heat as well. They don't need the warmth your fish will need though or even what I would need to be comfortable.

I worried more about having the animals go from 70+ degrees to -20. Maybe they are smart enough to want to stay in...I can only hope.

If you are getting rid of drafts, I would think the doors are closed, maybe I am missing something. Also, just because your water is at 70 does not mean the air temperature must be as well. If the water tank is reasonably insulated, the air can be a lot less. IMO heating the whole place to keep one corner warm is not the greatest solution. Even a few old sleeping bags hung as walls will create a barrier, but you say you have wood too. Walls can be 2x4 on 48inch centres to support them.

Second floor aquaphonics might benefit from windows or skylights for solar gain and light.
Banking earth around the barn could help insulate.

Donkey's proboard has a great design by Peter Berg for stacked barrels that create a "bell" that the rocket exhausts directly into. Matt Walker has a stacked barrel bell design with mass stacked inside.

William Bronson wrote: Second floor aquaphonics might benefit from windows or skylights for solar gain and light.
Banking earth around the barn could help insulate.

Donkey's proboard has a great design by Peter Berg for stacked barrels that create a "bell" that the rocket exhausts directly into. Matt Walker has a stacked barrel bell design with mass stacked inside.

The idea of a bell design very intriguing, I tried locating the information, but couldn't find it in the intermaze. Do you have a link you can post?

Thanks,
Damian

Satamax Antone wrote:http://www.stove.ru/index.php?lng=1&rs=16

Thanks Satamax, but I'm hoping for something less complex to build.

Damian Jones wrote:

Satamax Antone wrote:http://www.stove.ru/index.php?lng=1&rs=16

Thanks Satamax, but I'm hoping for something less complex to build.

To make a bell, take one container that won't burn. Pipe your exhaust gas into it either part way up the container or from the bottom pointing up (this is not that important, but can make it more affective). Take the flue gas out through a pipe at the bottom. Very simple. The simplest smallest bell is to put a "T" in the horizontal flue pipe pointing up and cap it. You could just put another barrel on top of that. The barrel could even be horizontal. Cover the barrel with mud to store more heat. That example uses the same pipe for intake and exhaust which would allow much heat to go straight through, so it is better to have one pipe go in and another out. This is not rocket science (it's bell science?) it is even easier than the RMH. The only must thing is the whole thing must be sealed and higher than the flue out pipe. The "bell" name comes from the similar concept to a diving bell.

Damian Jones wrote:

Satamax Antone wrote:http://www.stove.ru/index.php?lng=1&rs=16

Thanks Satamax, but I'm hoping for something less complex to build.

Sheap and simpoul

http://s65.photobucket.com/user/mremine/library/NYC%20Rocket%20Stove%20Build/#/user/mremine/library/NYC%20Rocket%20Stove%20Build/?page=1&_suid=138916351701502407655773906614

William Bronson wrote: Second floor aquaphonics might benefit from windows or skylights for solar gain and light.
Banking earth around the barn could help insulate.

Donkey's proboard has a great design by Peter Berg for stacked barrels that create a "bell" that the rocket exhausts directly into. Matt Walker has a stacked barrel bell design with mass stacked inside.

Here is my first concept of the project. From what I can tell my community has is not strict about building codes



I would like to removed the roof and the siding of the 2nd floor.
I would heat one tank as hot as possible and use cooler water to set the right temperature before returning it to the stock tank.

I don't own a barn but have always wanted one. I do own a 1889 balloon framed 3 storey Victorian that might qualify somewhat though. Here's what I did and what I would suggest -

Don't remove the roof or sidewall on the second level. I don't think the structure would standup anymore in high wind conditions and you still have to put water shedding somewhere.

From what I read previously, I was of the impression that the water tanks for the fish farming would go on the second level. Unless you're sharing that space within the greenhouse, I'm confused by the large tanks on the bottom level. If they are just water tempering holding tanks, that makes some sense.

On my own home I used fiberglass on the perimeter walls to fill between the studs. I then added a poly vapor barrier and 3/4" foam for an additional thermal break and then placed 5/8" rock over that for fire code and an additional thermal mass...now only the heads of the attachment screws get cold - the inside stays at a pretty even temp like the inside of a cooler.

I added insulation between my second level ceiling joists to R19 with a vapor barrier there too! No foam there but it would make sense if you were trying to keep each level at its own humidity level. I continued into the 3rd storey rafters where I built them out to get to an R40 and added vapor barrier and the foam again with the rock over that. I did place a spacer against the roof decking a vented the ridge with an intake at the eaves. Be sure to plan on keeping the critters out, insects, bats, and squirrels.

If you're planning on adding tanks within the greenhouse 2nd level, I'd suggest concrete block support columns filled with sand, aggregate, etc. for more thermal mass with a water piping system internal so you could use it to temper the water system for both summer and winter...copper not being needed since you want a slow exchange anyway.

The concrete floor on the first level can provide more tempering if you put in a raised floor and piping underneath. In the winter, it can be heated even though it will sink heat into the ground, it will provide more thermal mass. In the summer that ground temp can provide some cooling though.

I think it's obvious that you want some sort of heat exchanger for the water piping system from the stove(s) and I would try to use an open water reservoir with piping within and a auto refill system like on a toilet tank and control loop so it adds heat normally but can be shut off when not needed.

Just a few ideas based upon what I've seen.

Thanks for the reply Dave.

Somewhere in my post I must have miss-communicated my intentions.... The water tanks will be on the ground floor. I would still tie in the joists and studs to keep structure solid. I purchased the property at a fairly reasonable cost so I'm will to invest some money into sustainability. I do not consider this a DIY project by any means.

This is the grand slam plan where money is not an object. My primary goal is the heat the structure effectively and modify the barn to bring in more light to cut down on cost of lighting for the aquaponics.

Dave Colglazier wrote:I don't own a barn but have always wanted one. I do own a 1889 balloon framed 3 storey Victorian that might qualify somewhat though. Here's what I did and what I would suggest -

Don't remove the roof or sidewall on the second level. I don't think the structure would standup anymore in high wind conditions and you still have to put water shedding somewhere.

From what I read previously, I was of the impression that the water tanks for the fish farming would go on the second level. Unless you're sharing that space within the greenhouse, I'm confused by the large tanks on the bottom level. If they are just water tempering holding tanks, that makes some sense.

On my own home I used fiberglass on the perimeter walls to fill between the studs. I then added a poly vapor barrier and 3/4" foam for an additional thermal break and then placed 5/8" rock over that for fire code and an additional thermal mass...now only the heads of the attachment screws get cold - the inside stays at a pretty even temp like the inside of a cooler.

I added insulation between my second level ceiling joists to R19 with a vapor barrier there too! No foam there but it would make sense if you were trying to keep each level at its own humidity level. I continued into the 3rd storey rafters where I built them out to get to an R40 and added vapor barrier and the foam again with the rock over that. I did place a spacer against the roof decking a vented the ridge with an intake at the eaves. Be sure to plan on keeping the critters out, insects, bats, and squirrels.

If you're planning on adding tanks within the greenhouse 2nd level, I'd suggest concrete block support columns filled with sand, aggregate, etc. for more thermal mass with a water piping system internal so you could use it to temper the water system for both summer and winter...copper not being needed since you want a slow exchange anyway.

The concrete floor on the first level can provide more tempering if you put in a raised floor and piping underneath. In the winter, it can be heated even though it will sink heat into the ground, it will provide more thermal mass. In the summer that ground temp can provide some cooling though.

I think it's obvious that you want some sort of heat exchanger for the water piping system from the stove(s) and I would try to use an open water reservoir with piping within and a auto refill system like on a toilet tank and control loop so it adds heat normally but can be shut off when not needed.

Just a few ideas based upon what I've seen.

This is the grand slam plan where money is not an object.

If this is the case, I would recommend a new, purpose-built structure. Maybe, you could still keep the fish tanks in the barn, but put the grow beds out (in another structure) on the south side rather than upstairs.

By putting your growbeds upstairs, you are necessarily making the situation less sustainable because the pumps will have to work hard to get the water up there...you will have to have bigger pumps requiring more electricity.

Look into F-clean products for the walls of your greenhouse.

Murray Hallam has created a plan for an aquaponics system which has enough growbeds for a family of 4. It is called Indy23.

Cindy Mathieu wrote:

This is the grand slam plan where money is not an object.

If this is the case, I would recommend a new, purpose-built structure. Maybe, you could still keep the fish tanks in the barn, but put the grow beds out (in another structure) on the south side rather than upstairs.

By putting your growbeds upstairs, you are necessarily making the situation less sustainable because the pumps will have to work hard to get the water up there...you will have to have bigger pumps requiring more electricity.

Look into F-clean products for the walls of your greenhouse.

Murray Hallam has created a plan for an aquaponics system which has enough growbeds for a family of 4. It is called Indy23.

There was an article in the St. Paul Pioneer Press this past summer about a warehouse in Maplewood that is using a completely closed water system to raise fish and feed plants indoors. I found it fascinating that the system was paying for itself even with the costs associated with lighting, heating and cooling. Tanks on the ground floor is a very good idea and since heat rises, a greenhouse upstairs might work in the winter but I don't believe you'd get enough sun to grow much without supplemental light. A roof system made from clear fiberglass panels could be considered but it's not very energy efficient either summer or winter. Dave

I would like to take advantage of the barn's foundation. Masonry and rock walls for about 5 feet then another 4-5 of cinder block. Thick wood beams...this is a hay barn and the floor of the 2nd shows it. I can jump and down in there and it doesn't give a bit. I'm thinking I waterproof the floor and install drains and vents. The green house portion would be 2 ft less the the perimeter of the building and an area 3 ft as a deck. It will be a weird look I grant you that, but in my experience weird is not bad, just not normal. I don't mind being not-normal.

Pumping water up is not be a insurmountable problem. I'm researching a way to pump water up with out electricity...It is called a ram pump

Dave Colglazier wrote:

Cindy Mathieu wrote:

This is the grand slam plan where money is not an object.

If this is the case, I would recommend a new, purpose-built structure. Maybe, you could still keep the fish tanks in the barn, but put the grow beds out (in another structure) on the south side rather than upstairs.

By putting your growbeds upstairs, you are necessarily making the situation less sustainable because the pumps will have to work hard to get the water up there...you will have to have bigger pumps requiring more electricity.

Look into F-clean products for the walls of your greenhouse.

Murray Hallam has created a plan for an aquaponics system which has enough growbeds for a family of 4. It is called Indy23.

There was an article in the St. Paul Pioneer Press this past summer about a warehouse in Maplewood that is using a completely closed water system to raise fish and feed plants indoors. I found it fascinating that the system was paying for itself even with the costs associated with lighting, heating and cooling. Tanks on the ground floor is a very good idea and since heat rises, a greenhouse upstairs might work in the winter but I don't believe you'd get enough sun to grow much without supplemental light. A roof system made from clear fiberglass panels could be considered but it's not very energy efficient either summer or winter. Dave

Damian Jones wrote:
Pumping water up is not be a insurmountable problem. I'm researching a way to pump water up with out electricity...It is called a

ram pump

A hydraulic ram wastes something like 90% to get 10% to go up. Probably, not what you want in your case. What would more likely work... but may be dangerous... is the putt-putt boat principle. Heres one. The other problem is that it may heat the water too much. But you have the heater. You would be purposely creating steam which should not be a problem as it would be an open system. You would have two one way valves and a heated container. While it operates on steam, the water need not be close to boiling. the water being moved could be at some distance from heated end.

Did I just invent something? Hmm, just in case, lets call the above copyright CC by SA 2.5 Len Ovens 2014.

Note: the putt putt boat has been around many years and yet the idea has never been used to drive a people sized boat. There are probably some size/pressure considerations that keep it from being upsized.

I'm not worried about wasting water as I'll collect the waste to be apart of the return system. I plan to pump to a dispensing stock tank then water the plants from there.

Len Ovens wrote:

Damian Jones wrote:
Pumping water up is not be a insurmountable problem. I'm researching a way to pump water up with out electricity...It is called a

ram pump

A hydraulic ram wastes something like 90% to get 10% to go up. Probably, not what you want in your case. What would more likely work... but may be dangerous... is the putt-putt boat principle. Heres one. The other problem is that it may heat the water too much. But you have the heater. You would be purposely creating steam which should not be a problem as it would be an open system. You would have two one way valves and a heated container. While it operates on steam, the water need not be close to boiling. the water being moved could be at some distance from heated end.

Did I just invent something? Hmm, just in case, lets call the above copyright CC by SA 2.5 Len Ovens 2014.

Note: the putt putt boat has been around many years and yet the idea has never been used to drive a people sized boat. There are probably some size/pressure considerations that keep it from being upsized.

Damian Jones wrote:I'm not worried about wasting water as I'll collect the waste to be apart of the return system. I plan to pump to a dispensing stock tank then water the plants from there.

A hydraulic ram works from water going down hill. So that waste water will have to be pumped back up so you can use it. So you start with water warmed on the main floor, drop it down below the floor... say 10 feet, so you can get 10% of that water to the second floor. now you have 90% of the water 10 feet down and need a powered pump just to get it as high as the main floor tanks. It helps to draw a picture of the levels and where which water ends up.

I see your point. Once winter lets up I will have to do some practical experiments. For myself, getting water up the 2nd is the objective and can be done with a electric pump or by hand

Len Ovens wrote: A hydraulic ram works from water going down hill. So that waste water will have to be pumped back up so you can use it. So you start with water warmed on the main floor, drop it down below the floor... say 10 feet, so you can get 10% of that water to the second floor. now you have 90% of the water 10 feet down and need a powered pump just to get it as high as the main floor tanks. It helps to draw a picture of the levels and where which water ends up.

Damian Jones wrote:I see your point. Once winter lets up I will have to do some practical experiments. For myself, getting water up the 2nd is the objective and can be done with a electric pump or by hand

Len Ovens wrote: A hydraulic ram works from water going down hill. So that waste water will have to be pumped back up so you can use it. So you start with water warmed on the main floor, drop it down below the floor... say 10 feet, so you can get 10% of that water to the second floor. now you have 90% of the water 10 feet down and need a powered pump just to get it as high as the main floor tanks. It helps to draw a picture of the levels and where which water ends up.

Another thought I had... normally a hydraulic ram works on the same water it is pumping. I wonder if it could be adapted to having return water from the second floor pump a small percentage of "new" water upstairs. It would not be all of it and a pump would still be required, but it could be some of it.

Len Ovens wrote:[

Another thought I had... normally a hydraulic ram works on the same water it is pumping. I wonder if it could be adapted to having return water from the second floor pump a small percentage of "new" water upstairs. It would not be all of it and a pump would still be required, but it could be some of it.

Thanks for the good info Len. I've decided going with a solar pump filling a reservoir upstairs would be the way to go. The pump would go as long as there is sun and the reservoir would have an overflow drainage back in to the fish tank for help with aeration. I'm aware the of the increased weight of water may be a factor so I may several 50 gallon barrels spread along the foundation wall would care of that and the added mass would be a plus for the project. I was hoping to post a drawing to help visualize the situation but it is fairly straight forward now I think.