Would you rather transform swampland or desert into a permaculture paradise?

Here is another great "would you rather" question from Timothy. No one gets to start with perfect land, but if you had to take it to one extreme or the other with water....

Would you rather transform swampland or desert into a permaculture paradise?

This one is tough, but I think I would rather deal with not enough water, than too much. I'll take desert.

Desert. Desertification more likely happens because something went wrong. I would see reversing it is as beneficial. Swamplands and marshlands on the other hand are established beneficial ecosystems in my view. I'd leave those alone.

j

I grew up in a home near a swamp and miss the ecosystems that are within. There are so many beneficial plants that grow in swamps that I think that would be fun.


I also think restoring deserts is noble.... I just don't have any experience! Maybe that is where my fondness comes from?

Desert for sure! I'm in Florida for the winter and I hate the bugs and constant high humidity.  I grew up in Wyoming and am much more comfortable in arid climates.

It might be much better to first clarify whether the desert or the swamp are "created" by human intervention or are naturally occurring.

Ancient deserts and swamps already have their own "permaculture paradise". They are each full of their own particular ecosystems and life and interrelationships. They may not suit our human idea of paradise. But they are what they are and deserve to be left alone to themselves as they are. It really is not up to humans to impose their will on every single landscape and system. To do so is the opposite of paradise. It would just be somewhat boring uniformity. And it could create circumstances that could lead to all sorts of unhappy and unforeseen effects and even ecological damage. Earth needs deserts. Earth needs swamps. Earth needs Earth's diversity. The creatures and plants and insects and soil and waters of the deserts and swamps and rivers and prairies and mountains need their places. Unfettered by unneeded and unwanted outside human influences.

On the other hand, if a swamp has been imposed on a landscape by human thoughtlessness or misuse, or if a desert is created because of poor human stewardship, then the question becomes one of how to "fix" the human caused condition. In that case, the question is should the land be returned to its original state, or should the land be turned (again) into something it was not originally (which might be some persons idea of a "permaculture paradise"). It really isn't an either or question. The actual question might best be, "What does the Land want? And how can a human best help achieve that?"

But Jim, its a game, where people _have to choose one or the other in order to play.  I know what you mean since I like thinking of third options too, but ...

I'll play, I enjoy Would-You-Rather.  Easy answer here, I'd prefer swampland, because I really struggle in the desert, I feel drained, like the earth is sucking all of my energy out through my toes, because I gain energy from water and trees and hills.  And its like the earth is trying to gain that energy from my body when I go to the desert.  So even though swampworld is harder in a lot of ways, I'm choosing it.

And there's the rub. ~The games we play, the thoughts we think, the actions we take, can change the atmosphere around us. Everything we think, everything we do changes the Universe. If every day you think you can't do something, you probably won't. If you always open yourself to the highest and best good, quite often that is what will happen. It isn't just our hands that changes everything around us. Our minds and thoughts do as well.

There was an interesting discussion on this group some 10 years ago. It was posited that it may be best to return the favor when someone verbally or in writing assaults you. --And maybe there are some good things to be said for that, -Don't let the scoundrels get away with acting poorly. But the action of being angry at someone being angry, may just perpetuate the upset. Maybe it might be more useful in the long run to ask such a person why they would act like that. Or ask why they are triggered by you, instead of them creating the just and wonderful world they imagine. Or even just a simple, "Thank you for thinking of me, and now I return your unused gift to you." Change the actions of unhelpful behavior into more peaceful discussion.

I know that this all may tend to be a bit obscure to the original question of "would you rather". But for me, they are actually closely related. Thoughts create action.  If you think of a swamp as something that needs changing to better fit human imagined needs, perhaps you create an atmosphere where you bit by bit stop seeing swamps as beautiful places in their own right. And see them as less. If we imagine a possible "would you rather" as having a Fairie as a (in effect) slave, who will water your plants on your schedule, we will bit by bit think of Fairies as less. If deserts are just possible home to a future food forest, where will the desert creatures and plants go? When we just tear at someone tearing at us, when does peace happen?

Some decades ago, there was a very popular movement called Macrobiotics (it still exists, but much smaller).  Its core was "Macro" meaning large, big, all. And "biotics" all life. Macrobiotics took into account/covered all aspects of life. Spiritual, diet, movement, health, behavior, etc. That is kind of the way I think of Permaculture. A total way of thinking about, relating to, acting towards Earth. If we spend our days growing the best, best companion planted garden ever, but always walk the exact same path to get to the garden, what have we accomplished? We cherish that plant, -but trod thoughtlessly on that other plant. It's not whole. It's not complete. It creates an incomplete atmosphere. Maybe better to be teacher in all we do, rather than just take actions or think thoughts that don't actually teach.

So for me, playing games is wonderful. We do it every day with the large Farm School/homeschool we run. But playing mindful games might be a bit more useful, than just gaming each other. Go ahead play "would you rather". It's terrific. But for me, maybe ask uplifting "rathers" than just asking whatever random "rather" that comes to mind. And perhaps the Universe will be created happier for it.

Desert. I spent most of my life in New Mexico, gardening there. I'd be more ahead of the game as far as experience with the climate and native and imported species. Swamps are too moldy for me, I get ill fast.

Currently greening the desert so I’m gonna pick that one. I also think the wet conditions would amplify my allergies and the bugs. The heat can be brutal but I have found that napping during the hottest part of the day if the only way through it and one of my favorite things to do too. The cool mornings with the birds and the dark skies with the stars makes it all worth it.

Quite by accident, I had the opportunity to take a few hundred mile drive on a two lane at night through the sw desert.  I was amazed at all the pairs of eyes, glowing in the dark, looking back at me.   I have also done some exploring in Louisiana swamp county as well as in Maine.  All seem to be vibrant eco systems in their own right.   I will take the cop out and not change either.

Well, our land is a damn sight closer to swamp than to desert, and we are "changing" it. Trying to do it gently and respectfully, as to not disturb too much, but well. Life is change, and every interaction changes both the interacting entities. A land with humans on it will look different than a land without humans, just like a land with beavers, or spruce trees, or any one species, will differ from one without. I'm always a bit sceptical about the concept "untouched wilderness", since it implies that humans are, or can be, or should be, separate from the rest of nature. We are part of the whole, not separate, and I personally believe that the majority of the trouble and misery in the world stems from us trying to ignore this fact. I think changing and affecting one's surroundings is inevitable, and the best we can hope for is to let that change be in a good direction, towards more diversity and life rather than less.

But enough commandeering a game thread for serious discussions I guess... I'll play the game! It's a tough choice. There aren't any deserts in my part of the world, and I don't really know anything about them, while we do have a lot of swamps. But everything I read about greening the desert sounds fascinating, so very theoretically I'd still pick a desert.

I worry about water conservation, that is why our pond is (or was) empty.

I have never dealt with swamp land though I believe there need for conservation in these areas.

I feel I would try to tackle the swampland.

I love the desert I just don't want to use a lot of water to turn it green.

Do I have a water source for the desert?  Would probably choose desert even without a water source though as there are to many regulations to fight to even think about swamp land.  Since I live in an area with 4 to 6 inches precip many years(we had 13 last year but that was a really rare year) I know about desert.  But we do have irrigation water off the mountain here that makes ag possible.

There are some really thought-provoking replies to this question.
I would rather transform desert.
I watched this Geoff Lawton video recently, so my mind is a bit biased to desert right now.

Matt McSpadden wrote:Here is another great "would you rather" question from Timothy. No one gets to start with perfect land, but if you had to take it to one extreme or the other with water....

Would you rather transform swampland or desert into a permaculture paradise?

Desert, since that is what I have experience doing!

Sandy

Desert, swamps have too many insects that bite and bugs love to bite me.

Is anyone here in the Santa Fe, NM general area? Moved from swampy St Louis to Santa Fe area a few years ago and would really enjoy meeting other folks interested in this fun stuff!
🙏🏽

Seeing as I was born near the bog skeleton in the Essex UK area, I'll choose swamps. I have a lot more experience with swamps, bugs, and lost welly boots.