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What is a Pie?

 
Nancy Reading
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We've been wondering - how do you define a pie?

Does it need a crust on the bottom?
what is pie
this one doesn't

(source)

Does it need a crust on the top?
this one doesn't!

(source)

Does it need to be pastry?
what about Shepherd's pie?

source

What about pizza pie?
is this pie?

source

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Pearl Sutton
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One of my favorite cookbooks has a category "filled things" some are things like dolmas, which I wouldn't call a pie, but I think part of the definition of pie needs to include "something filled with something."  

Is a cobbler a pie? What about an eclair?

There's a reason the staff is asking this, and you'll understand why soon, but we are having a hard time with this concept, it's more complex than you'd think!!

What IS a pie? What is not?

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Timothy Norton
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From Merriam-Webster " A: a dessert consisting of a filling (as of fruit or custard) in a pastry shell or topped with pastry or both"

So a dessert specifically unless you follow the other definition...

"b: a meat dish baked with biscuit or pastry crust"

This is a linguistic crisis of the highest culinary order!

I'll love to see what people come up with.

Vegetables, Flowers, Chickens, Fruit Trees, Grapes

 
Carla Burke
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Personally, I see it as something with a 'crust'. On top, on bottom, both, or even a hand-held one - hand-pies, turnovers, Scottish & English meat pies, Stromboli,  calzones, etc. Pizza, pot pie, and quiche also qualify, in my personal 'pie lexicon'. This might seem a bit... odd? But, even with a classic dessert pie, I'll often eat them in hand, if they're firm enough. I struggle with thinking of shepard's pie and cottage pie as a 'pie', for their lack of crust, of some type, and see them as a casserole.

BUT!! My definition of a 'crust' has changed dramatically, since I began this wheat-intolerance-paired-with-keto odyssey, too! I've used  many crisply-cooked things as a crust: meat (including bacon), cheese, potatoes (not keto, but tasty, when I want a carb-up) a few specific veggies, nuts, seeds, and... I feel like I'm leaving out a couple things... And, I still love a crust I can eat in hand, though a softer crust is not necessarily a deal breaker.

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Pearl Sutton
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Then there's me. I make pie with no crust. I think it's overrated. The filling is the good part. If I put anything it's some kind of crumbs or flakes just to make it dish out easier.

If I eat other people's pie, I generally skip the crust, or eat minimal amounts. I only know one lady who's crust I will happily eat, if all crust tasted like that, I'd eat it. Never met anyone else who did it that good though. Other crusts are just boring cardboard to hold the filling in. I'd just as soon skip it.

So do I eat pie?

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Christopher Weeks
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Pearl and I would make good pie partners. I mostly like the crust with a little of the filling as flavor, preferably the slightly burned parts.
 
Jay Angler
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I'm in between Pearl and Christopher - I like a little crust (think thin dough pizza instead of thick) and I like *lots* of filling. I always make a deep dish pie, and that goes for meat pies as much as desert pies.

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Cat Knight
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Based on the Cube Rule, a pie is a quiche (labelled as  soup/salad with bread bowl in the chart) if it doesn't have a top crust and a calzone if it does.

15_cube_rule.jpg
The Cube Rule of Food Chart
The Cube Rule of Food Chart

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Nancy Reading
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Carla Burke wrote:Personally, I see it as something with a 'crust'. On top, on bottom, both, or even a hand-held one



Ah! I see I forgot pasties! We call them bridies in Scotland.

scottish bridie pie
Scottish (or Forfar)bridie


Cornish pasties differ in their filling and the design of the crust

traditional cornish pasties
Cornish pasty


I see the main difference being they're made without a dish - mind you so are raised pies traditionally too.

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Jay Angler
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No time to track down the source today, but it was either one of the TV shows covering historical farming or from a book describing the same. As Nancy says above,

I see the main difference being they're made without a dish - mind you so are raised pies traditionally too.



Yes - and the crust was strictly considered the "container" to bake it in the bread oven. In fact, it was at least implied, if not stated outright, the crust was not eaten. I suspect the crust would have been considered animal feed at least.

I don't recall what the era used to make the crust (or even exactly what era it was), but I doubt it had the quality ingredients that I use in my crusts, like a mix of butter and goose fat, flour, lemon juice and an egg. Eggs would have been very valuable that far back. I recall a British video describing "ancient jobs" that described people climbing down cliffs over the sea with a basket stealing bird eggs. I'm not sure how they could tell if the eggs had already started developing, or if they cared. Apparently the value of the eggs was worth the risk...

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Christopher Weeks
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If shepherd’s pie counts, so does Frito pie.
 
Carla Burke
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I do love me some good frito pie!! (Frito pie, for those unsure, is a bag of Fritos corn chips, ripped open on the back seam, and pulled open, similar to a bowl, then topped with chili and whatever toppings you like. For me, that would be raw wire onion, shredded sharp cheddar, sour cream, fresh jalapeño, and sliced black olives!)

For anyone unsure of the difference between shepard's & cottage pie, my understanding has always been that shepard's is made with lamb & topped with mashed potatoes, while cottage it's made with beef & topped with sliced potatoes, with the remainder of the recipes being pretty similar. I'm more likely to prefer cottage, on a typical day. But, sometimes, lamb is da bomb!

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Carla Burke
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Oh! Another pie that's not a pie (but I love!) is Boston Cream Pie. Two layers of rich yellow cake, filled with rich vanilla pastry cream, and topped (not on the sides) with a thick layer of ganache.

The only thing...more expensive than education is ignorance.~Ben Franklin
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Jordan Holland
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Thirteen posts in and no one has made a math joke. What's this place coming to...?

What about a Russian pirozhok? It uses yeast leavened dough, but can be an appetizer, hearty meal, or a sweet dessert.

Now I'm hungry.

And he said, "I want to live as an honest man, to get all I deserve, and to give all I can, and to love a young woman whom I don't understand. Your Highness, your ways are very strange."

 
Carla Burke
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Hmmm... that, while it looks delicious, reminds me more of a baked version of Chinese steamed dumplings...

The only thing...more expensive than education is ignorance.~Ben Franklin
Learn to make cheese on a personal sized scale, with our own Kate Downham!
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Nancy Reading
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Dumplngs reminds me of cobblers - does a crust have to be complete?

source

And on the subject of hand held pies, how could I forget samosa?

source

They used to be the birthday treat choice when I worked in Coventry (UK)

Don't dream it - be it!
How Permies works: https://permies.com/wiki/34193/permies-works-links-threads

 
Christopher Weeks
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Some cross-pollination: I got to talking to my wife about defining pie, and she went to her peeps at Ravelry to see what people thought. You have to have an account to see it, but probably some of you do: https://www.ravelry.com/discuss/remrants/topics/4277748
 
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