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"The future is something which everyone reaches at the rate of sixty minutes an hour, whatever he does, whoever he is." C.S. Lewis
"When the whole world is running towards a cliff, he who is running in the opposite direction appears to have lost his mind." C.S. Lewis
Matt McSpadden wrote:Hi Lisa,
I think it is good to have a reality check with alternative energy. There are limitations, and some people like to forget that. I like the list you have already. I would add solar hot water heater to that. There are many different kinds, but here in a cold climate, heating the water is a good chunk of our energy bill. Even if it is an on demand propane heater that barely uses electricity, it still costs a lot to heat it. A solar hot water heater, done right, could easily take care of all of the domestic hot water use for a family. With a large setup and a storage tank, you could probably do the domestic hot water plus supplement some heat.
A build too cool to miss:Mike's GreenhouseA great example:Joseph's Garden
All the soil info you'll ever need:
Redhawk's excellent soil-building series
Win a free slice of Pie! - https://permies.com/t/251532/win-free-slice-pie-answering
"The future is something which everyone reaches at the rate of sixty minutes an hour, whatever he does, whoever he is." C.S. Lewis
"When the whole world is running towards a cliff, he who is running in the opposite direction appears to have lost his mind." C.S. Lewis
Natural Small Batch Cheesemaking A Year in an Off-Grid Kitchen Backyard Dairy Goats My website @NourishingPermaculture
Iterations are fine, we don't have to be perfect
My 2nd Location:Florida HardinessZone:10 AHS:10 GDD:8500 Rainfall:2in/mth winter, 8in/mth summer, Soil:Sand pH8 Flat
The best place to pray for a good crop is at the end of a hoe!
Christopher Shepherd wrote:I did a video of a small solar system not working well at 1:00 in the afternoon here on January 6th. The clouds block out almost all of the solar energy spectrum. I like solar, but have learned to deal with a couple months of no solar energy making to the ground.
https://youtube.com/shorts/ZlMyZZ-mFfI
The best place to pray for a good crop is at the end of a hoe!
hmm the other unit you tried was it the same type? I ask because there are a lot of "fake" mppt chargers out there. The brand is called mppt or their definition of mppt is not the same. Usually if you hook up to the controller and the panel drops immediately to the battery voltage you have a pwm charger not an mppt. It's usually somewhere in the manual fine print. The amperage does not change but the controller chops the voltage.Voltage range for a true MPPT should be about 100 volts for those entry level ones. On a cloudy day like that the panel should be putting out about 25 percent of rated capacity as long as there is a load on the battery as well...Christopher Shepherd wrote:Hi David. These panels run about 33v in full sun and 66v in series. They hit about 32v in parallel for a few minutes today. The clouds were just so thick yesterday. I too thought something was wrong. If I unhook them from the mppt controller they were pumping about 30v yesterday, but as soon as there was a load they went way down to 12-13v. I was all over the wiring just to make sure. I rewired every connection. I even changed the mppt controller with another one to prove to myself things were wired right. Then I put the panels in parallel just in case one has a bad connection internal. Darn clouds. Today I am getting about 4.5 amp every once in a while. The sun has not come out, but I can see that the clouds are thinner in spots. That was the lowest I have seen them charge in 3 years. It definitely had me fooled.
The best place to pray for a good crop is at the end of a hoe!
The best place to pray for a good crop is at the end of a hoe!
Lisa Brunette wrote:
Matt McSpadden wrote:Hi Lisa,
I think it is good to have a reality check with alternative energy. There are limitations, and some people like to forget that. I like the list you have already. I would add solar hot water heater to that. There are many different kinds, but here in a cold climate, heating the water is a good chunk of our energy bill. Even if it is an on demand propane heater that barely uses electricity, it still costs a lot to heat it. A solar hot water heater, done right, could easily take care of all of the domestic hot water use for a family. With a large setup and a storage tank, you could probably do the domestic hot water plus supplement some heat.
Thanks, Matt! Is a solar hot water heater something you have to make yourself, or can you buy one that's permitted for suburban housing? And will HVAC maintenance techs know how to fix it if something goes wrong?
Chris Tully
Java developer, Handy man, Gardener
Country oriented nerd with primary interests in alternate energy in particular solar. Dabble in gardening, trees, cob, soil building and a host of others.
Steve, this is a great book. I agree. Well worth the read.
How Permies works: https://permies.com/wiki/34193/permies-works-links-threads
My projects on Skye: The tree field, Growing and landracing, perennial polycultures, "Don't dream it - be it! "
S Bengi wrote:$8,000 over 20yrs is about $33/month
or about 100kWhr/month or about 3.3kWHr/day
or just a 1,000W solar array with 3.3hrs of effective sunlight on average over a year
1,000W solar array is just three 333W solar panel.
FYI: utility companies usually say they only charge $0.16/kWhr but you have to double that due to distribution charges.
Paying $8,000 for what is basically just 3solar panels. Makes me think that you could build a carport with solar roof or something and get more bang for your buck. But you are correct, in the city with high-rise not everyone has a roof that they can install their own solar on, and maybe a neighbouring building blocks all your sunlight even if you own your roof.
This is what I think a typical solar setup look like
Production/Usage = 1,000kWHr/month or 33kWhr/day
Solar Array Size = 10,000W for about $10,000
Inverter = 10,000W costing $7,000 for a Hybrid Sol-Ark 12k
Misc = $3,000
Labor usually brings the total price up by 50% (total of $30,000 or $20,000 with tax credits/etc)
Optional LiFePO4 Battery = 5kWHr-33kWHr for $5,000 to $33,000.
To me having solar isn't just about saving cost, it's about having electricity even if the grid goes down. Its about distributed self-production and having an emergency plan.
Your friend isn't always right and your enemy isn't always wrong.
Failure is a stepping stone to success. Failing is not quitting - Stopping trying is
Never retire every one thinks you have more time to help them - We have never been so busy
Trace Oswald wrote:Solar heat definitely seems to be the way to go in my mind. Morris Dovey has effectively solved the heating issue for people to a very large degree with his plans to build solar heaters. They have no moving parts, can be built DIY, and are not expensive. Other people have created similar units, but not as elegantly, and not completely passively with no moving parts whatsoever. It took him 8 years to perfect. A fascinating story.
His article can be found The Zen of Passive Solar Heating . Warning upfront - there is a lot of information about heat, and the details are somewhat complex.
Solar water heaters are not complicated DIY projects, and there are some really good designs on BuildItSolar
great write up! I'm curious what you see as the shortcomings of your SW? I like the Victrons but have not gotten a chance to install one yet. Only one or two of their inverter models is certified for US/Canada install as well ...J Bentley wrote:Hello - we live in the Smoky Mountains area of North Carolina. 4 years ago we installed 8 rooftop solar panels, MPPT controller, 48v inverter, and 6 repurposed lithium batteries. The install happened after years and countless hours of research, planning, learning, saving, etc. We didn't plan for it to be a DIY install, but pro installers said our site would not support solar. They had trucks, advertising, and a HR department to fund, and they were scrambling for low-hanging fruit -- prime grid-tie solar sites with big price tags. One pro suggested we needed "a man in a van" to help us. It took about a year to find that person, an electrician and solar expert who was also very busy and had to drive 90 minutes each way to our home for some crucial installation steps that were beyond my abilities. He also allowed us to get the system permitted in our rural county.
I made some mistakes in the design process, which we were able to fix with a little bit of additional equipment and a lot of research hours and tinkering. The 2500w system with 13kwh of batteries cost us about $12k, not including hundreds of hours of my time designing, researching, and installing. Despite lots of help on websites, I felt like we were reinventing the wheel for our mountainous, heavily wooded site. The system has helped us through several extended power outages, and we feel a sense of relief that the sun provides at least half of our electricity on average.
A year later we added solar thermal for preheating hot water, thanks to Gary and others at builditsolar.com . Heating water had been our biggest electricity draw, and the solar thermal system has proven to be the best value, bang for buck. For about $3000, we get 100% of our hot water for a few months a year, and a nice boost the rest of the time. Right now the evacuated tubes are covered with snow, as are the PV panels, but somehow the drainback cycle has already run several times.
In hindsight, the only big thing I would change would be our choice of inverter. The Schneider SW4048 has been robust so far, but I think it was misrepresented as a good choice for "self-consumption," a system that harnesses as much solar as possible with minimal grid support. Now I would choose a Victron Quattro inverter - even more expensive but far more appropriate for our situation.
Spending $15k+ on renewable energy seems like a lot, and others have done better for far less money, but the decisions we made were the best we could manage at the time. We had a deadline for federal tax credits (which have since been reinstated per the IRA). Shifting from planning into action was exciting, terrifying, and more expensive than we had predicted. But I think it was worth it. Hopefully our kid will agree in the years to come. Like Neil Young told the crowd at the end of his set, "Do what you can, people!"
Lisa Brunette wrote:Thanks, everyone! Really useful information, especially some of those links, videos, and examples.
It's hard not to get discouraged or feel a bit overwhelmed, as the commentary seems to break solar into two options:
1. Pay for a professionally installed system. This comes with a high cost, and depending on your solar "fitness," (roof and house position, climate, etc.), it won't pencil out.
2. Go DIY. This is the more cost-effective option, and it's great permies ethos, as you're empowered to do the work. BUT, it requires some training or self-study in electrical tech, specifically in solar, which is rarer, since most focus on traditional electrical systems. The risk is that you get it wrong and incur more cost fixing it, or even start a fire or other hazard. I don't possess enough background in this stuff to understand some of the back-and-forth comments in this very thread, unfortunately.
I guess there could be a third option, which is to barter/trade your skill set with someone who has a solar tech skill set. I don't know anyone who does, but it would be a good option if I did!
Steve Marquis wrote:There's a brilliant how-to on solar in Lonny Grafman's (free to download) book To Catch the Sun β full of inspiring stories of communities coming together to harvest their own sunshine, and how you can do it too to create your own renewable resource.
https://www.tocatchthesun.com/
He has another on water systems (to catch the rain.com)
Trace Oswald wrote:Solar heat definitely seems to be the way to go in my mind. Morris Dovey has effectively solved the heating issue for people to a very large degree with his plans to build solar heaters. They have no moving parts, can be built DIY, and are not expensive. Other people have created similar units, but not as elegantly, and not completely passively with no moving parts whatsoever. It took him 8 years to perfect. A fascinating story.
His article can be found The Zen of Passive Solar Heating . Warning upfront - there is a lot of information about heat, and the details are somewhat complex.
Carrie Graham wrote:
I sense you are somewhat intimidated. The intro system at Harbor Freight, though overpriced per watt, is still a complete basic system. Even my fancy internet-monitored system is basically exactly the same thing at its core. I suggest you might purchase or at least study one of those to see how easy it really is to familiarize yourself with a solar electric system installation. Play around with it. Add some stuff, use it as a generator, try to envision the possibilities.
How about option 2.5?
Do the panel part yourself (or oversee a handyman or teenager) and hire an electrician to do the final connection to the house for you. The actual connectors are very low voltage, small wires and look similar to plugging in a phone or computer. For several reasons, even though I have a roof system, I do not suggest that as a first choice. Panels that are easy to get to are easier to clean every so often. Start with a design like that.
An optimal system in my opinion would be a south-facing carport system that eventually charges an electric car. The car can serve as a generator for the house, the expensive part of the generator is already in the car. Backup batteries would need to be stored and charged inside the house, as batteries don't do as well in extreme cold or heat. More panels could be added for the house or built into the south facing part of the house, but I really think they need to be designed in so they are accessible for easy cleaning from the start. Not so you have to pay a company or suffer decreased output. Or maybe inexpensive cleaning drones will be marketed soon.
I am also not sure why more people don't get together and purchase solar panels in bulk for projects. That would save them a great deal.
I have had no breakdown cost so far in 6 years nor do I see any. I did replace one warrantied controller on a panel.
C
Failure is a stepping stone to success. Failing is not quitting - Stopping trying is
Never retire every one thinks you have more time to help them - We have never been so busy
There will come a day of self-sufficiency, freedom, and divine living. But for those men for whom wisdom is possible, and who do seek it, such men may truly live as gods. For men of wisdom, all things can be full of justice and mutual love. From the Wall of Oinoanda
I'm all tasted up for a BLT! This tiny ad wants a monte cristo!
A rocket mass heater heats your home with one tenth the wood of a conventional wood stove
http://woodheat.net
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