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The limits of solar energy

 
pollinator
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My husband and I looked into adding solar panels to our suburban home, and we found that it doesn't pencil out well:

- Cost $8,000 US, with rebates/subsidies
- It will take us 20 years to pay off in energy saved, and that's if NOTHING EVER BREAKS (ha, ha, ha, ha....)

The solar provider did ask us if we could place some panels in our yard, since part of the factor here is the position of the house and steep incline/small footprint of the roof doesn't make it the best candidate for solar. However, we're only on 1/4-acre, and we're using the full yard for our food forest. Plus... I doubt our city hall will approve them in the yard like that.

I've done some research on solar energy as a replacement for fossil fuels (it's definitely not a 1:1!). This inspired me to write a more lengthy treatment, since a lot of people think we can just sort of "unplug" all our energy-sucking stuff from the fossil fuel grid and then "replug" it into the renewable grid, and go merrily on our way. Here's the post: It's not easy being green

There's also the problem that solar panels come mainly from China, where labor and environmental regulations don't exist to protect workers and ecosystems.

So my main takeaway from this is that I've focused instead on lowering my energy consumption through energy efficiency (dressing warmly in winter, turning down the thermostat, insulation, strategic use of incandescents as Paul Wheaton has covered, etc.).

I thought this warranted a thread here on Permies. Question for discussion:

What's the best way to capture and use solar energy? We own a Sun Oven, which is great. I know there are plans here on Permies for making solar dehydrators and the like. But what about heating your home and powering your devices? Is there a clean, green, and affordable way to go solar? Are there better sources for solar panels?

Alternatively, does your permaculture residence have to include solar? Can you, and even should you, go without it?

Also, here's a related thread on Permies.

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Hi Lisa,
I think it is good to have a reality check with alternative energy. There are limitations, and some people like to forget that. I like the list you have already. I would add solar hot water heater to that. There are many different kinds, but here in a cold climate, heating the water is a good chunk of our energy bill. Even if it is an on demand propane heater that barely uses electricity, it still costs a lot to heat it. A solar hot water heater, done right, could easily take care of all of the domestic hot water use for a family. With a large setup and a storage tank, you could probably do the domestic hot water plus supplement some heat.
 
Lisa Brunette
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Matt McSpadden wrote:Hi Lisa,
I think it is good to have a reality check with alternative energy. There are limitations, and some people like to forget that. I like the list you have already. I would add solar hot water heater to that. There are many different kinds, but here in a cold climate, heating the water is a good chunk of our energy bill. Even if it is an on demand propane heater that barely uses electricity, it still costs a lot to heat it. A solar hot water heater, done right, could easily take care of all of the domestic hot water use for a family. With a large setup and a storage tank, you could probably do the domestic hot water plus supplement some heat.



Thanks, Matt! Is a solar hot water heater something you have to make yourself, or can you buy one that's permitted for suburban housing? And will HVAC maintenance techs know how to fix it if something goes wrong?
 
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Solar heat definitely seems to be the way to go in my mind.  Morris Dovey has effectively solved the heating issue for people to a very large degree with his plans to build solar heaters.  They have no moving parts, can be built DIY, and are not expensive.  Other people have created similar units, but not as elegantly, and not completely passively with no moving parts whatsoever.  It took him 8 years to perfect.  A fascinating story.  

His article can be found The Zen of Passive Solar Heating .  Warning upfront - there is a lot of information about heat, and the details are somewhat complex.

Solar water heaters are not complicated DIY projects, and there are some really good designs on BuildItSolar
 
Matt McSpadden
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@ Lisa,
Yes. As Trace mentioned, you can DIY it yourself if you have some basic carpentry and plumbing skills. You can buy commercial pre-built systems, but all the ones that I have seen are fairly expensive. There are a lot of different styles.

For climates that freeze, I like using a collector, unpressurized tank, and a drain back system. The actual collector could be just about any kind that is mounted higher than the storage tank (rooftop with tank in the basement works well). You have a solar panel that run a pump directly. If there is enough sun to run the pump, then it pumps the water. When there is not enough sun, then you probably don't care about the pump running. You hook it up as a loop with an unpressurized tank. One side is long and goes all the way down to the pump on the bottom of the tank, under water. Then the piping goes up, through the heat collector, and then back down to the tank. The key is to stop that second pipe maybe 6-12 inches above the water level. That way when the pump shuts off, the water can drain back down into the tank and leave the collector empty. This means you can use water in the system instead of antifreeze, without worrying as much about things freezing. Then you use a heat exchanger to take that heat and send it to your shower, washing machine, or heating system.
 
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Reducing the need for electricity first is definitely a good idea.

We have hot water, cooking, and heating all from wood = no electricity needed for the 3 most energy-hungry things in my climate. Opening windows instead of air conditioning knocks out another big use for electricity.

Selective fridge use can help - often in winter it's easy to find fridge-like temperatures in some rooms or outside without any electricity, and this is the time of year when solar electricity generates the least.

Reducing or eliminating various electrical gadgets around the house, or being selective about their use and only using when the sun is shining can help as well.

With these strategies, we managed to get our use electricity low enough so that we generate all the electricity we need from 1300w of solar panels (4x330 watt panels).
 
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The cost of photovoltaic solar is prohibitive for me and many others. But solar heating is much much more efficient and more directly accessible. The sun is a giant ball of energy shooting beams at us constantly. There are tons of ways to use it that aren't photovoltaic panels.

Many have already been mentioned but a quick list:
solar water heaters
solar ovens
solar dehydrators
passive solar architecture
natural lighting/windows/mirrors
greenhouses
thermal mass
chlorophyll!!!
 
pollinator
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$8,000 over 20yrs is about $33/month
or about 100kWhr/month or about 3.3kWHr/day
or just a 1,000W solar array with 3.3hrs of effective sunlight on average over a year
1,000W solar array is just three 333W solar panel.
FYI: utility companies usually say they only charge $0.16/kWhr but you have to double that due to distribution charges.

Paying $8,000 for what is basically just 3solar panels. Makes me think that you could build a carport with solar roof or something and get more bang for your buck.  But you are correct, in the city with high-rise not everyone has a roof that they can install their own solar on, and maybe a neighbouring building blocks all your sunlight even if you own your roof.

This is what I think a typical solar setup look like
Production/Usage = 1,000kWHr/month or 33kWhr/day
Solar Array Size = 10,000W for about $10,000
Inverter  = 10,000W costing $7,000 for a Hybrid Sol-Ark 12k
Misc = $3,000
Labor usually brings the total price up by 50% (total of $30,000 or $20,000 with tax credits/etc)
Optional LiFePO4 Battery = 5kWHr-33kWHr for $5,000 to $33,000.

To me having solar isn't just about saving cost, it's about having electricity even if the grid goes down. Its about distributed self-production and having an emergency plan.
 
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I have to very much agree with S Bengi's numbers.

Part of the problem here is that you are also paying for the labor of installation, and the cost of the permitting and inspection process.  With DIY, the costs are far lower.  Looking back at S Bengi's numbers...

8,000 over 20yrs is about $33/month
or about 100kWhr/month or about 3.3kWHr/day
or just a 1,000W solar array with 3.3hrs of effective sunlight on average over a year
1,000W solar array is just three 333W solar panel.


It turns out tht 3.3kWh is close to what my real-world consumption averages over the course of the year.  I find my absolute minimum numbers, keeping the refrigerator running 24/7 is ~ 2.5kWh in winter, and ~3.5kWh in summer.  The kitchen is the farthest place from our main woodstove, so it simply consumes less power in winter.

It's easy to put together a 24V cabin system that can make this much power for only ~2200$, which I've posted before.  Don't buy panels retail with shipping.  Shipping all that glass is the killer.  Buy locally off Craigslist with cash and carry pickup.  I got 260W REC panels for 65$ that way.  Here's an itemized list, including prices....
4 golf-cart batteries, now 110$ at Costco: 440$
4 260W grid-tie panels at 75$ each: 300$
1 80A MPPT charge controller: Epever Tracer 8420AN is 350$ right now on Ebay
24V sine-wave inverter:  Samlex makes a budget 2000W unit for 650$ that is UL listed.  Schneider makes a premium Conext 4024 for 1800$.
wiring, breakers, electrical boxes: 500$
total:  2240$

If you put your panels on rotating mounts like I did, you can rotate your array East in morning and West in afternoon, basically doubling your total output.  Expect to get 4-5kWh minimum in winter and 7-8kWh in summer with manual solar tracking.

I you instead went with premium components, going with Trojan L-16 batteries, and the Conext 4024 inverter, you could incorporate automatic generator charging through the inverter.  That ratchets up the price to about 3600$, including the generator, the bigger batteries, and double the solar to 2000W.  So, absolute independence for 3600$.

Now, for a financial analysis, assuming the deluxe system above can make you at least 10kWh of power per day in winter and your electricity would otherwise cost you 20 cents/kWh, then you could make 2$ of electricity per day, or ~ 60$ per month.  It would take just 60 months, or 5 years to break even with an initial investment of 3600$.
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I did a video of a small solar system not working well at 1:00 in the afternoon here on January 6th.  The clouds block out almost all of the solar energy spectrum.  I like solar, but have learned to deal with a couple months of no solar energy making to the ground.  

 
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Christopher Shepherd wrote:I did a video of a small solar system not working well at 1:00 in the afternoon here on January 6th.  The clouds block out almost all of the solar energy spectrum.  I like solar, but have learned to deal with a couple months of no solar energy making to the ground.  

https://youtube.com/shorts/ZlMyZZ-mFfI


Hi Christopher,
Based on the display on your charge controller you are running an mppt controller but your array seem to be running at the same voltage as your battery bank... That to me says you need to double check your wiring. MPPT chargers were specifically developed to help less than ideal locations use solar effectively by combining the voltages of several panel and switch it down to battery voltage only at the controller. Your array should be putting out on average about 1.5 times your array size in Kw Hrs per day at this time of year even in Ohio...  It does make a significant difference.
Cheers,   David
 
Christopher Shepherd
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Hi David.  These panels run about 33v in full sun and 66v in series.  They hit about 32v in parallel for a few minutes today.  The clouds were just so thick yesterday.  I too thought something was wrong.  If I unhook them from the mppt controller they were pumping about 30v yesterday, but as soon as there was a load they went way down to 12-13v.  I was all over the wiring just to make sure.  I rewired every connection. I even changed the mppt controller with another one to prove to myself things were wired right.  Then I put the panels in parallel just in case one has a bad connection internal. Darn clouds.  Today I am getting about 4.5 amp every once in a while.  The sun has not come out, but I can see that the clouds are thinner in spots.  That was the lowest I have seen them charge in 3 years.  It definitely had me fooled.
 
David Baillie
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Christopher Shepherd wrote:Hi David.  These panels run about 33v in full sun and 66v in series.  They hit about 32v in parallel for a few minutes today.  The clouds were just so thick yesterday.  I too thought something was wrong.  If I unhook them from the mppt controller they were pumping about 30v yesterday, but as soon as there was a load they went way down to 12-13v.  I was all over the wiring just to make sure.  I rewired every connection. I even changed the mppt controller with another one to prove to myself things were wired right.  Then I put the panels in parallel just in case one has a bad connection internal. Darn clouds.  Today I am getting about 4.5 amp every once in a while.  The sun has not come out, but I can see that the clouds are thinner in spots.  That was the lowest I have seen them charge in 3 years.  It definitely had me fooled.

hmm the other unit you tried was it the same type? I ask because there are a lot of "fake" mppt chargers out there. The brand is called mppt or their definition of mppt is not the same. Usually if you hook up to the controller and the panel drops immediately to the battery voltage you have a pwm charger not an mppt. It's usually somewhere in the manual fine print.  The amperage does not change but the controller chops the voltage.Voltage range for a true MPPT should be about 100 volts for those entry level ones. On a cloudy day like that the panel should be putting out about 25 percent of rated capacity as long as there is a load on the battery as well...
 
Christopher Shepherd
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Yep, it is real.  We used to sell this brand.  It searches for about 2 minutes as it keeps trying to find the most efficient route.  Then it ends up at the bottom with not enough power coming in.  We are having trouble with a customers midnight doing the same thing at the moment.

This one is good for, if I remember right, 150v input for 12v or 300v for 24v.  It is fully adjustable for charge and float mode max voltages on the output.  I usually run a little lighter voltage on the gel cells verses wet cells to reduce charge heat.  I will show you when we get a little sun how quick the numbers go up.

It is better today, but still the clouds are thick.

I have a customer with 19 x  330 watt panels that is only getting 76 watts at this moment.  Icky clouds.  I can look at quite a few of my customers systems over the web.  I should have done that yesterday and saved me some headache.
 
David Baillie
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Hmm... Well that sucks... What kind of system are you installing running these days?
Cheers, David
 
Christopher Shepherd
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We install  from 330 w to about 150 k both grid tie and griddles.  We use midnight, Schneider, and enphase as are normal.  We use sol ark and chili con for requested applications.  Sol ark has surprised us without the use of a transformer.  We are quite picky from too many warranties over the years.  On the small stuff we use a few off brands of controllers that I test on the homestead to see if they really work as promoted.  Most of the time I am R&d, engineer, service guy and purchasing for the company I work for.  I got hooked up with them, because I do real work testing on a homestead.  Breaking things is my specialty.  Things got to be tuff to live on a homestead.

Edit:
Today the sun peaked out and charged the batteries too full.  When I got to the shop at 3 the voltage input was 28v the output was 13.7 and the amps were 10.4.  
 
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Lisa Brunette wrote:

Matt McSpadden wrote:Hi Lisa,
I think it is good to have a reality check with alternative energy. There are limitations, and some people like to forget that. I like the list you have already. I would add solar hot water heater to that. There are many different kinds, but here in a cold climate, heating the water is a good chunk of our energy bill. Even if it is an on demand propane heater that barely uses electricity, it still costs a lot to heat it. A solar hot water heater, done right, could easily take care of all of the domestic hot water use for a family. With a large setup and a storage tank, you could probably do the domestic hot water plus supplement some heat.



Thanks, Matt! Is a solar hot water heater something you have to make yourself, or can you buy one that's permitted for suburban housing? And will HVAC maintenance techs know how to fix it if something goes wrong?



I know that you can both buy and have solar hot water systems installed. My parents did just that and it worked pretty well, but the there was eventually a leak in the roof where the panel supports were attached to the roof.
 
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Something I need to take into consideration with solar electric is that I would need to get a permit which opens me up to my property tax being re calculated by the city.
This would raise my property taxes from around $7000/ year to somewhere around $20000/ year. $13000 buys a lot of electricity.
 
Lisa Brunette
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Thanks, everyone! Really useful information, especially some of those links, videos, and examples.

It's hard not to get discouraged or feel a bit overwhelmed, as the commentary seems to break solar into two options:

1. Pay for a professionally installed system. This comes with a high cost, and depending on your solar "fitness," (roof and house position, climate, etc.), it won't pencil out.

2. Go DIY. This is the more cost-effective option, and it's great permies ethos, as you're empowered to do the work. BUT, it requires some training or self-study in electrical tech, specifically in solar, which is rarer, since most focus on traditional electrical systems. The risk is that you get it wrong and incur more cost fixing it, or even start a fire or other hazard. I don't possess enough background in this stuff to understand some of the back-and-forth comments in this very thread, unfortunately.

I guess there could be a third option, which is to barter/trade your skill set with someone who has a solar tech skill set. I don't know anyone who does, but it would be a good option if I did!

 
pollinator
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So do project that have reasonable pay offs.  Here is one of mine still progressing.  Intend to add solar hot water after this one is finished.

Solar thermal air collector
 
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I’ve had an off grid home in Alaska for 25 years. Neighbors added up how much they would pay over the years for solar and most didn’t think the price was worth it. Most thought cost/savings did not add up. Several factors that should have entered their analysis. The positive good it would do for the environment. That was a big one for me. The other consideration that most left out, the many days during winter when commercial electric failed and we were the only light source shining, it happened with trees falling on power lines, even vandalism such as shooting transformers. We didn’t use power for heating rooms, but a hot plate sure was handy many times and all our rechargeable batteries were always full. These same panels are still making power. We bought more than we need to start as we knew there would be deterioration. We learned that you buy the best battery’s available instead of cheaper ones, pay a little more for better panel's such as German. I sold my homestead and I’m in processing of downsizing. My new place will be powered by solar electric and we will sell power back to electric company, run my well pump and green house lights. It’s physical and mental health knowing I’m able to keep my home buzzing when all else around me fails. The solar you buy now is better and 30% less than when I started.  Security of the mind and body is priceless.
 
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There's a brilliant how-to on solar in Lonny Grafman's (free to download) book To Catch the Sun – full of inspiring stories of communities coming together to harvest their own sunshine, and how you can do it too to create your own renewable resource.

https://www.tocatchthesun.com/

He has another on water systems (to catch the rain.com)
Staff note (Paul Fookes) :

Steve, this is a great book.  I agree.  Well worth the read.

 
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Welcome to Permies Henry, thanks for sharing your experience. I'm impressed that you get sufficient solar power even in winter to power hotplates. We're trying to think of ways of making our shop more resiliant (lots of refrigeration) so I must check out how much sun the rear roof gets....
 
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Okay, here's my experience. I live in West Virginia, which is far from the best insolation in the US, but not quite the worst. Winter clouds are sure yes indeed a thing here, perhaps makes more difference even than the shorter days and less ideal angle. We don't have a generator, but we have a line to our neighbor's--they have a larger, grid-tied system, and we take a kilowatt-hour or two a few times a winter, totaling maybe ten or 20 kwh a winter--half or close to as much as the typical US home uses in a day. But we use between 2 and 3 kwh a day. I have a huge advantage in that my husband knows his way around electricity and electronics; he planned and installed our system, and assisted others in the area, some with grid-tied or hybrid systems. He also figured out ways to save energy, power supplies for specific appliances so the inverter doesn't need to run. We got our system in 2009, and paid $9070 for four panels @ 220 watts each, eight T 106 batteries, and inverter and charge controller, and wiring and such.  Seven years later when these "training batteries" were shot we got a different kind of lead-acid battery, new here but long popular in Europe, tubular batteries--these are very heavy and taller, are in glass or plastic cases so you can see in, and the specs claim that they will be down to 80% original capacity in 25 years--so they'll last us the rest of our lives. They were $4000. We had a problem only once, six months after installation when a close lightning strike fried part of the inverter--luckily it was still under warranty and they quickly replaced the part. We now turn off most AC in times of storms, and even the refrigerator if lightning is striking violently around. My husband decided we needed a couple more panels a few years ago, and here's the interesting thing--the new ones are almost exactly the same dimension as the old ones, but they are 315 watts, and also more efficient in low light, so a good 50% better capacity--and the old ones in 2009 cost $600 apiece, these cost $200 apiece. A year or two ago my husband discovered that the cables which connected the new batteries were unequal and substandard--he replaced them and the difference was amazing--we can go three cloudy days, then in a half sunny day get recharged.
So. Absolutely, DO get solar because the day is coming, I predict, when grid power is either much more expensive or becomes intermittent. But DO figure out ways to cut your use FIRST--if you have to pay someone to help you with this, it will be worth it, but for $25 you can get a Kill-a-watt, which plugs into an outlet, then you plug an appliance into it and it tells you how much power the appliance is using; for things like a fridge it counts the hours so you can assess how much power an appliance that goes on and off uses in a day. (It also tells some other stuff I don't understand, about the quality of the electricity or something.) Also--mounting panels on a roof is not necessarily the best choice. It's best if you live in a city and have to worry about vandalism and theft, or if the roof is the sunniest part of your property and you have a good south face. But ground-mounted panels can be easily adjusted seasonally (the angle of the sun changes quite a bit). And a roof mount means making holes in your roof, quite a project and must be done right not to leak. Also panels are more efficient at lower temperatures, and roofs are warmer than other places. And--we go out sometimes more than once a day in winter to brush snow off the panels with a push-broom--such days are when we need the input the most, but how much fun would it be to hang out a window, or walk over an icy roof, to do it when it's 12 degrees out? My husband posted plans for the ground mount that we and several others in our area, and now others elsewhere have used, on his website which is spectrumz.com, under going solar. The mounts are made of pressure-treated wood.
Okay, aside from panels I'll put in a plug for my other favorite solar device--an attached greenhouse.  I have one on the 12-foot south face of our house, seven feet deep. I use it to start seedlings in spring, to dry towels all year and things like beans and peanuts in fall, to house orphaned chicks or injured hens in safety and once in an exceptionally frigid week, all my chickens; I also dry seeds inside paper bags there, and certain bulbs...and of course, it helps heat the house on borderline days so we don't need a fire.
 
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Here at the Castle (one large community building in our small eco-villagy place) we have three big old PVs up on a 30' roundwood structure, and another dozen smaller ones on the south side of the building that we just installed. We can tilt the vertically-installed panels on the wall to get a better sky profile in the summer but so far we haven't bothered.

All of the panels were bought used -- apparently rich folk often upgrade their entire PV system to the latest tech and just dump the old ones off on the market. (I beg you to never pay retail, especially for silicon! flexible cheap durable perovskite panels are already becoming available; the industry is about to shift big time)

I was here when the expansion got hooked up, and with roughly triple our solar input, we didn't have to fire up the generator for months. Pretty sure we'll cover the expansion costs in a couple of years just from gas savings. The charge controllers were the big buy, but the whole installation was under $2K, including a reasonable hourly rate for the resident who did the work.

We are lucky to have a family of self-trained off-grid experts to do the wiring and source cheap electronics. We also don't give a wet fart about permitting, contracts, and hooking into the grid. Nobody uses hot plates or coffee machines or any of that wasteful crap.

I regularly monitor and shut down the inverter system to conserve power for the freezer and the electrical circuits on the (on-demand propane) water heater. The house has two separate wiring systems for DC and AC, so we always have light and a bit of charge for personal electronics when we need it. On an even partly sunny day we can run everything forever, including the community washing machine, freezer, blender, and some LED grow lights.

It takes three days of solid cloud to run down our battery bank to the point where the 12V system won't engage, and three or four hours of sun to charge it back up from flat. Less sun in the winter, but the lower temperatures increase overall gain noticeably. The freezer is our biggest draw, and it's in an unheated space so we only ever have trouble charging that in the summer when there is generally plenty of sun.

Some clever electronics preserves power to the DC well pump and other essentials even when the battery drops very low. Very rarely, I have to turn people away with their laundry, but nobody's missed a hot shower since the new panels came online. Worst case, we run a litre of gas through the generator to top us off. That happens maybe once a month on average in the winter, less so in the summer.

Maintenance has been light since we replace the ancient well pump (CAN $130 including shipping) and garbage-heap inverter (I think the new one was less than $200). Every month or two we have to top up the battery bank with distilled water. Every now and then we've had to re-wire one of the kludged DC plugs, but it's been well over ten years since they were installed. Ditto LED lights, which have started to fail after a decade or two.

I don't see how we would need anything else. Maybe a propane genny for backup to get us entirely off the gas -- also the community is putting up a rebroadcast tower that might take a turbine.

We've done all of this with decades-old tech. Cheap household flow batteries and roll-to-roll printed PVs will make it a no-brainer very soon.

All in all this is the cheapest place I have ever lived in, and the benefits of being in the woods more than make up for any minor inconvenience. I guess we could use a RMH to supplement our iron cookstove; it's on my list.

I think a lot of the sweat here is in trying to deal with a grid plug-in, where of course the provider and your contractors are going to squeeze as much cash out of you as they can.

In which case my advice is: "get out of town"
 
pollinator
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S Bengi wrote:$8,000 over 20yrs is about $33/month
or about 100kWhr/month or about 3.3kWHr/day
or just a 1,000W solar array with 3.3hrs of effective sunlight on average over a year
1,000W solar array is just three 333W solar panel.
FYI: utility companies usually say they only charge $0.16/kWhr but you have to double that due to distribution charges.

Paying $8,000 for what is basically just 3solar panels. Makes me think that you could build a carport with solar roof or something and get more bang for your buck.  But you are correct, in the city with high-rise not everyone has a roof that they can install their own solar on, and maybe a neighbouring building blocks all your sunlight even if you own your roof.

This is what I think a typical solar setup look like
Production/Usage = 1,000kWHr/month or 33kWhr/day
Solar Array Size = 10,000W for about $10,000
Inverter  = 10,000W costing $7,000 for a Hybrid Sol-Ark 12k
Misc = $3,000
Labor usually brings the total price up by 50% (total of $30,000 or $20,000 with tax credits/etc)
Optional LiFePO4 Battery = 5kWHr-33kWHr for $5,000 to $33,000.

To me having solar isn't just about saving cost, it's about having electricity even if the grid goes down. Its about distributed self-production and having an emergency plan.



Is it a mixed bag?  Sure.
But, I agree with S Bengi.
If you have the roof space or yard to make it work, I say, "Go for it."
We have had our system about 1 1/2 years.  The electric bill my wife just paid was $14.31.
Between that and the payment for the solar panels we are still paying less than our electric bill had been before.
Since electric rates have gone up here we are paying a lot less than our neighbors.  And, every time rates go up we will be a little better off.
Years down the road when the thing is paid off we will be a lot better off.
 
gardener
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We have been totally off grid with our house, solar electricity, solar hot water using antifreeze to capture the heat and transfer to the water, a bit like a car radiator.
Having completed a full upgrade, refit for about $AU 15 K, we are expecting 15 years of power without too many problems.If you anticipate the cost of electricity to double every 10 years, the power bill in 20 years will be 4 times what it is now.  We ran some figures and will have paid off our system in about 8 years given what our fully on grid neighbours are paying currently and excluding the expected 2.4% increase on top of the 18% last year.

We use dual axis trackers for efficiency, four 1 KW 12 volt arrays, two per tracker.  We use 12 volt because when we put the solar on in 1986, that was the way to go so we have dual 12 volt DC and 220 volt AC systems.

This guy is my go to for advice and solar stuff is   http://www.micropowergrids.com.au/_Solar_Generation/__Residential.html
 Some of my footings work for the dual axis trackers is on his site
Depending how you are set up, it is probably worth looking a direct drive DC washing machines, fridge/ freezer combinations with two Danfoss compressors using CHO gas.  One compressor manages the freezer and one manages the fridge.  We use header tanks for water pressure so pumps only run when the sun is out. And we have one fridge freezer, 1 fridge and one freezer with no problems.

Our only limit is after 7 days or really overcast weather we might have to put our 800 w generator on for a day (3 litres of fuel) which we have don once in 12 months.
 
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Hello - we live in the Smoky Mountains area of North Carolina. 4 years ago we installed 8 rooftop solar panels, MPPT controller, 48v inverter, and 6 repurposed lithium batteries. The install happened after years and countless hours of research, planning, learning, saving, etc. We didn't plan for it to be a DIY install, but pro installers said our site would not support solar. They had trucks, advertising, and a HR department to fund, and they were scrambling for low-hanging fruit -- prime grid-tie solar sites with big price tags. One pro suggested we needed "a man in a van" to help us. It took about a year to find that person, an electrician and solar expert who was also very busy and had to drive 90 minutes each way to our home for some crucial installation steps that were beyond my abilities. He also allowed us to get the system permitted in our rural county.
    I made some mistakes in the design process, which we were able to fix with a little bit of additional equipment and a lot of research hours and tinkering. The 2500w system with 13kwh of batteries cost us about $12k, not including hundreds of hours of my time designing, researching, and installing. Despite lots of help on websites, I felt like we were reinventing the wheel for our mountainous, heavily wooded site. The system has helped us through several extended power outages, and we feel a sense of relief that the sun provides at least half of our electricity on average.
   A year later we added solar thermal for preheating hot water, thanks to Gary and others at builditsolar.com . Heating water had been our biggest electricity draw, and the solar thermal system has proven to be the best value, bang for buck. For about $3000, we get 100% of our hot water for a few months a year, and a nice boost the rest of the time. Right now the evacuated tubes are covered with snow, as are the PV panels, but somehow the drainback cycle has already run several times.
   In hindsight, the only big thing I would change would be our choice of inverter. The Schneider SW4048 has been robust so far, but I think it was misrepresented as a good choice for "self-consumption," a system that harnesses as much solar as possible with minimal grid support. Now I would choose a Victron Quattro inverter - even more expensive but far more appropriate for our situation.
   Spending $15k+ on renewable energy seems like a lot, and others have done better for far less money, but the decisions we made were the best we could manage at the time. We had a deadline for federal tax credits (which have since been reinstated per the IRA). Shifting from planning into action was exciting, terrifying, and more expensive than we had predicted. But I think it was worth it. Hopefully our kid will agree in the years to come. Like Neil Young told the crowd at the end of his set, "Do what you can, people!"
 
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I agree about the issues with solar.  The Zen Passive article is fantastic!  Thanks for sharing!

Trace Oswald wrote:Solar heat definitely seems to be the way to go in my mind.  Morris Dovey has effectively solved the heating issue for people to a very large degree with his plans to build solar heaters.  They have no moving parts, can be built DIY, and are not expensive.  Other people have created similar units, but not as elegantly, and not completely passively with no moving parts whatsoever.  It took him 8 years to perfect.  A fascinating story.  

His article can be found The Zen of Passive Solar Heating .  Warning upfront - there is a lot of information about heat, and the details are somewhat complex.

Solar water heaters are not complicated DIY projects, and there are some really good designs on BuildItSolar

 
David Baillie
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J Bentley wrote:Hello - we live in the Smoky Mountains area of North Carolina. 4 years ago we installed 8 rooftop solar panels, MPPT controller, 48v inverter, and 6 repurposed lithium batteries. The install happened after years and countless hours of research, planning, learning, saving, etc. We didn't plan for it to be a DIY install, but pro installers said our site would not support solar. They had trucks, advertising, and a HR department to fund, and they were scrambling for low-hanging fruit -- prime grid-tie solar sites with big price tags. One pro suggested we needed "a man in a van" to help us. It took about a year to find that person, an electrician and solar expert who was also very busy and had to drive 90 minutes each way to our home for some crucial installation steps that were beyond my abilities. He also allowed us to get the system permitted in our rural county.
    I made some mistakes in the design process, which we were able to fix with a little bit of additional equipment and a lot of research hours and tinkering. The 2500w system with 13kwh of batteries cost us about $12k, not including hundreds of hours of my time designing, researching, and installing. Despite lots of help on websites, I felt like we were reinventing the wheel for our mountainous, heavily wooded site. The system has helped us through several extended power outages, and we feel a sense of relief that the sun provides at least half of our electricity on average.
   A year later we added solar thermal for preheating hot water, thanks to Gary and others at builditsolar.com . Heating water had been our biggest electricity draw, and the solar thermal system has proven to be the best value, bang for buck. For about $3000, we get 100% of our hot water for a few months a year, and a nice boost the rest of the time. Right now the evacuated tubes are covered with snow, as are the PV panels, but somehow the drainback cycle has already run several times.
   In hindsight, the only big thing I would change would be our choice of inverter. The Schneider SW4048 has been robust so far, but I think it was misrepresented as a good choice for "self-consumption," a system that harnesses as much solar as possible with minimal grid support. Now I would choose a Victron Quattro inverter - even more expensive but far more appropriate for our situation.
   Spending $15k+ on renewable energy seems like a lot, and others have done better for far less money, but the decisions we made were the best we could manage at the time. We had a deadline for federal tax credits (which have since been reinstated per the IRA). Shifting from planning into action was exciting, terrifying, and more expensive than we had predicted. But I think it was worth it. Hopefully our kid will agree in the years to come. Like Neil Young told the crowd at the end of his set, "Do what you can, people!"

great write up! I'm curious what you see as the shortcomings of your SW? I like the Victrons but have not gotten a chance to install one yet. Only one or two of their inverter models is certified for US/Canada install as well ...
Cheers, David
 
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Lisa Brunette wrote:Thanks, everyone! Really useful information, especially some of those links, videos, and examples.

It's hard not to get discouraged or feel a bit overwhelmed, as the commentary seems to break solar into two options:

1. Pay for a professionally installed system. This comes with a high cost, and depending on your solar "fitness," (roof and house position, climate, etc.), it won't pencil out.

2. Go DIY. This is the more cost-effective option, and it's great permies ethos, as you're empowered to do the work. BUT, it requires some training or self-study in electrical tech, specifically in solar, which is rarer, since most focus on traditional electrical systems. The risk is that you get it wrong and incur more cost fixing it, or even start a fire or other hazard. I don't possess enough background in this stuff to understand some of the back-and-forth comments in this very thread, unfortunately.

I guess there could be a third option, which is to barter/trade your skill set with someone who has a solar tech skill set. I don't know anyone who does, but it would be a good option if I did!


 I sense you are somewhat intimidated.  The intro system at Harbor Freight, though overpriced per watt, is still a complete basic system.  Even my fancy internet-monitored system is basically exactly the same thing at its core.   I suggest you might purchase or at least study one of those to see how easy it really is to familiarize yourself with a solar electric system installation. Play around with it. Add some stuff, use it as a generator, try to envision the possibilities.

How about option 2.5?
Do the panel part yourself (or oversee a handyman or teenager)  and hire an electrician to do the final connection to the house for you.  The actual connectors are very low voltage, small wires and look similar to plugging in a phone or computer.  For several reasons, even though I have a roof system, I do not suggest that as a first choice. Panels that are easy to get to are easier to clean every so often. Start with a design like that.  

An optimal system in my opinion would be a south-facing carport system that eventually charges an electric car. The car can serve as a generator for the house, the expensive part of the generator is already in the car.  Backup batteries would need to be stored and charged inside the house, as batteries don't do as well in extreme cold or heat. More panels could be added for the house or built into the south facing part of the house, but I really think they need to be designed in so they are accessible for easy cleaning from the start.  Not so you have to pay a company or suffer decreased output. Or maybe inexpensive cleaning drones will be marketed soon.

I am also not sure why more people don't get together and purchase solar panels in bulk for projects.  That would save them a great deal.  

I have had no breakdown cost so far in 6 years nor do I see any. I did replace one warrantied controller on a panel.  

C
 
Mary Cook
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Now I gotta respond to Carrie's post to say: we got our initial system from Backwoods Solar, which is also good at helping people figure out a system, and offers set-ups all ready to go. But there's a key question here, which is whether you want to go off-grid, do a grid-tied system, or have a parallel off-grid system. Backwoods I believe specializes in off=grid systems, which is what we have, and has the advantages that your power doesn't go out when the grid goes down, and you aren't at the mercy of the %%$## at your utility. But grid tied systems basically consist of the panels, with micro-inverters built into each one--the grid is your battery and charge controller. Here in WV, you have to pay for a fancy meter that runs both ways, and they don't ever pay you for electricity, but you get full credit for surplus to use in a time of deficit and only pay $5/month for the privilege of using the grid.
Carrie talked about people getting together to get panels cheaper--there is an outfit here that does that. I think it's Solar United Neighbors, which focuses on one region at a time, collecting customers, then the installer goes around and assesses them all, and at some point is ready to order all the panels and install each system. There is also lobbying going on now for community solar, in which a larger system is set up in a good location, and you can buy into it and thus get cheaper electricity without setting up panels on your own place. Last year we did finally get third-party financing deals legalized, in which an outfit puts the panels on your roof (or yard?) and owns the system, you pay for the power and eventually I guess own the system. So you might want to check into what's possible where you live. But if you're thinking grid tied, I point out that you need not calculate your average use and put up that many panels--you could start with a small system that supplies a part of your power. Then, if the grid goes down for good you will be very glad to have what turns out to be all the power you actually need.
 
Lisa Brunette
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Steve Marquis wrote:There's a brilliant how-to on solar in Lonny Grafman's (free to download) book To Catch the Sun – full of inspiring stories of communities coming together to harvest their own sunshine, and how you can do it too to create your own renewable resource.

https://www.tocatchthesun.com/

He has another on water systems (to catch the rain.com)



Thanks! Just ordered a free digital copy.
 
Lisa Brunette
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Trace Oswald wrote:Solar heat definitely seems to be the way to go in my mind.  Morris Dovey has effectively solved the heating issue for people to a very large degree with his plans to build solar heaters.  They have no moving parts, can be built DIY, and are not expensive.  Other people have created similar units, but not as elegantly, and not completely passively with no moving parts whatsoever.  It took him 8 years to perfect.  A fascinating story.  

His article can be found The Zen of Passive Solar Heating .  Warning upfront - there is a lot of information about heat, and the details are somewhat complex.



Trace,

Thanks for this source. My husband and I have started to dig into Dovey's passive heating system, and it's really fascinating, with no moving parts or electricity lines. So cool!
 
Lisa Brunette
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Carrie Graham wrote:

 I sense you are somewhat intimidated.  The intro system at Harbor Freight, though overpriced per watt, is still a complete basic system.  Even my fancy internet-monitored system is basically exactly the same thing at its core.   I suggest you might purchase or at least study one of those to see how easy it really is to familiarize yourself with a solar electric system installation. Play around with it. Add some stuff, use it as a generator, try to envision the possibilities.

How about option 2.5?
Do the panel part yourself (or oversee a handyman or teenager)  and hire an electrician to do the final connection to the house for you.  The actual connectors are very low voltage, small wires and look similar to plugging in a phone or computer.  For several reasons, even though I have a roof system, I do not suggest that as a first choice. Panels that are easy to get to are easier to clean every so often. Start with a design like that.  

An optimal system in my opinion would be a south-facing carport system that eventually charges an electric car. The car can serve as a generator for the house, the expensive part of the generator is already in the car.  Backup batteries would need to be stored and charged inside the house, as batteries don't do as well in extreme cold or heat. More panels could be added for the house or built into the south facing part of the house, but I really think they need to be designed in so they are accessible for easy cleaning from the start.  Not so you have to pay a company or suffer decreased output. Or maybe inexpensive cleaning drones will be marketed soon.

I am also not sure why more people don't get together and purchase solar panels in bulk for projects.  That would save them a great deal.  

I have had no breakdown cost so far in 6 years nor do I see any. I did replace one warrantied controller on a panel.  

C



Carrie,

I don't know if it's "intimidation" so much as feeling outright thwarted by the reality of limitations: of our site, our budget, resources, and capabilities. The professional solar companies have deemed our roof not well-suited to solar. We're in a suburban area, entirely on-grid, with zoning restrictions that preclude off-roof solar arrays, plus we lack the space (whoever suggested we build a garage/carport and put the panels on that roof, same issue there). It looks like our current home might not support what we want to do.

We are also engaged in a long-term decision whether to move to a more rural/small-town area with more acreage, and in that case, we could possibly have the freedom to experiment more. But doesn't that then suggest that solar in the suburbs, if not possible for us, might not be possible for many people? For example, our south corner is blocked by the adjacent four-family apartment building, which is a mere 6' clearance. We don't even have windows on that side of the house on the main floor, as they'd just look out onto a brick wall.

My husband and I really like the example of Morris Dovey's passive solar system linked to above... but building something like that ourselves is outside our skill set, even if we were to move to a location where it would be possible.

There's a lot to consider, but this thread is full of great info. Thanks again, everyone!
 
Paul Fookes
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There are a number of plug and play solutions.  Sometimes, it is a matter of just giving it a go.  I watch Youtube for how to do stuff.  The main thing with the solar cells is to get the angle correct.  There are a number of calculators online so I will not go into that.  Depending on what design your roof is, you can have panels on the East, South, and West.  That way you will maximise your power generation when you presumably need it - breakfast and dinner time with the midday to charge batteries.  I have a friend did this and it works well.

I agree with doing as much as you can do then getting a solar power qualified  electrician to do the hook-up and certification.
Good luck with it
 
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I think your personal investigation into solar power mirrors a larger cascade of events across the globe. As you've stated solar, aswell as other "renewable" power sources, have there disadvantages. And for the most part cannot reliably and affordably provide for the power requirements of our power hungry society. So I would agree that you should start by reducing power consumption. The one cost consideration I didn't see in your review, that should be included, is depreciation. The life of solar panels is about 20-30 years, shorter for batteries, so if your not recouping your investment within ~10yrs I'd say it's not a worthwhile investment unless you have a specific need for solar, such as offgrid. My energy security plans are more diversified, wood heating is cheap and easy, and can be relatively efficient. A mix of small scale DIY solar and wind generation can provide a bulk of offgrid electricity at a reasonable cost. With a small gas/diesel generator to get you through the weeks when the weather just won't cooperate. If your mechanically inclined they can be had at auction for next to nothing. A methanol reactor can convert said cheap wood into wood alcohol that can be used in the small gas generator, provided some upgrades to the seals and gaskets. And if I get around to raising pigs, excess fat can be used with methanol and wood ash to make biodiesel for the generator aswell. Not a plan that can be executed in a suburban area but I hope it illustrates how I see solar/wind fitting into a renewable energy mix.      
 
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