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Would rather not be single...but

 
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Any other extremely introverted individuals out there, who consider dating the epitome of hell? or am I the only one.
 
pollinator
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Can you explain what you mean by your description?
 
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At times my friends do not understand why I like my time by myself.  I am a therapist and constantly with people listening, helping them at work. I want, no crave quiet time without people!!!  Growing up I liked being by myself. People know me and seem to like me, yet at times I have to retreat to my office for some quiet time.  

I have learned to be excellent at small talk.  I find it difficult to disclose things about myself.  When talking with you about you I can do it!  To tell you about me - ugh!!  I want to share, care, love deeply another one.  Getting from hello to a relationship is like walking over hot coals.  
 
Nicole Blank
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Sure John,

This is my take on the topic "what's wrong with dating today?" In my opinion everythings wrong with dating today, I'd rather skip it.
 
Nicole Blank
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Unfortunately Terry, small talk to me is like pulling fingernails, I'd rather nose-dive into a deep philosophical discussion, I have found this is NOT considered attractive.
 
author & pollinator
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Yes, I am pretty much the same.  For me, the ideal date is going for a hike... which means not talking much while hiking because of being observant.  THen sitting down at the destination, having a good meal and long, in depth conversations about things that matter.  Most bars are too loud and very few restaurants these days impress me.  I'd rather cook a meal and have a quiet dinner at home with a date if the hike works out.
 
Nicole Blank
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I find it difficult to disclose things about myself.  When talking with you about you I can do it!  To tell you about me - ugh!!  I want to share, care, love deeply another one.  Getting from hello to a relationship is like walking over hot coals.  

I get this, while I can totally be my 100% true self with people I know, once I step out the front door I'm totally different, I adapt the mindset game on world, game on.
 
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Lots of pretty women have wanted my:   time, attention, money, status, and indentured servitude.
The decider for me is their ability to "nose-dive into a deep philosophical discussion."
But, most folks can't spell  fil-a-sof-ick-al.

So, I don't even converse with people that have not tried to enlighten their intellect/soul.
Nicole Blank said, "Unfortunately Terry, small talk to me is like pulling fingernails,"
I agree, My time is too valuable to me to waste on small talk.

Nicole Blank said, "Getting from hello to a relationship is like walking over hot coals"
and then crossing a muddy river when you can't see what you are gonna put your foot on.
 
Nicole Blank
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Actually Pete this "getting from hello to a relationship is like walking over hot coals" was a quote from Terry, I put it into my post but don't know why it didn't show up with a white background, as it does when your quoting from someone else.
 
Pete Arthur
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Non Player Character:

You meet someone.
If by the their third statement you realize they have not taken the long road to self discovery,
you politely excuse yourself from the conversation.


But, to find someone to have a meaningful conversation, it takes an hour of mutual discovery/comparison.
So, you talk to people.
One in ten have any sense.
One in a hundred have any soul.
One in a thousand have decided to be a positive agent for change.

So you "do the dishes" knowing that in this 20 bushel pile of soiled plates, cups, forks, pots, there is a silver spoon.
Most of it is still drudgery.
 
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Pete Arthur wrote:Non Player Character:

You meet someone...



You are much more optimistic than I am on the numbers, but you nailed it so eloquently here.

Every few years, I work up the gumption to go through a few bushels of dishes.  I find nothing remotely resembling a silver spoon, set the kitchen on fire, and walk away.  

At this point, I'm preparing to go hide in a cave while the NPC's eat each other.

 
Michael Adamson
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Judson Carroll wrote:Yes, I am pretty much the same.  For me, the ideal date is going for a hike... which means not talking much while hiking because of being observant.  THen sitting down at the destination, having a good meal and long, in depth conversations about things that matter.  Most bars are too loud and very few restaurants these days impress me.  I'd rather cook a meal and have a quiet dinner at home with a date if the hike works out.



I must look like a serial killer.  Suggesting a hike as a first date seems like the fastest way to get ghosted that I've found, though I have had luck with, "Can we go somewhere with water so I can dunk you in it and see what you actually look like under that clown paint?"  Ladies that go for that one are never my type though.
 
gardener
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This is a good question. One thing people keep bringing up in my thread you mention is their belief that we need more events where people get together, and that will help get the dating scene back on track. What about people who are extremely introverted? What about people who are shy? What about people who are fed up with disrespectful asking/rejection? Simply being around more people isn't likely to help, because lack of people isn't so much an issue with all the technology we have today to connect with countless people. More of the same kind of people simply magnifies the problems.

I really feel for the people who are so shy they virtually can't date. I wonder how many might even want to post here about it, but are so shy they can't even do that. The woman who is asked, but so shy she can't say yes. The man who is so shy he can never ask. What hopelessness they must feel. How much potential is lost? If they could just get past that initial stage, how much better could the world be because of what they could offer?

I'm not shy. I could be on stage in front of a thousand people and it not bother me. In fact, it feels like I'm at home. But I care very little for social interaction. There is a thread on permies about how long you could go without human interaction. I was surprised at how short a span most people claimed; I would have expected more loner types here. Last year, I took some time off and later realized I had gone seven days without speaking to or seeing another human being and didn't even realize it. Part of it may be that I am often so disgusted by humanity that I am ashamed to be a part of it. Like the lines from the poem: "And so I turned into a sty/ and laid me down among the swine." But there are many good people out there as well. I just don't feel the need most normal people seem to have for talking just for the same of talking or simply being in the presence of others.

From what I have read, the psychology behind it is due to the need for validation. Fortunately/unfortunately for some, they are so confident in who they are that being around others does not really give them anything. Sometimes, it even takes from them since they are giving out validation but receiving none in return. It makes sense that such a person would prefer few or even a single close relationship rather than many lesser ones. And such people can make remarkable companions or lovers. They do not generally suffer from many of the pitfalls associated with people that arise from lack of confidence or of not knowing one's self. Jealousy, selfishness, infidelity, etc. As has been noted, they typically make excellent listeners, partly because they do not feel the need to speak for no good reason, but also because if they care enough to be with someone, they are with them for all the right reasons and truly care about what they have to say. Unfortunately, if society places a large emphasis on the dating rather than the end goal, such people tend to fall through the cracks. Sometimes the people who have the most to offer are given the least chance. Such is life, I guess.
 
Nicole Blank
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Judson - A hike sounds pretty cool, my ideal date would be kayaking, love it!
I'm not into bars I'll skip that party, I prefer to stay in than go out, a coffee shop is the  exception.

Pete - If you don't mind sharing, what is your idea of a good philosophical topic?

Michael - setting the kitchen on fire, that's funny! Also clown paint agreed, although I can kill it with an eyeliner pencil, that's all I need.

Jordan - right on. I feel like I have a lot to offer, I've been showered with praise my whole life about what a good wife and mother I'd be, from both men and women, unfortunately I can't seem to get to that place, I've come to the conclusion I'm undatable...what's the cure for that?

I have apparently earned an apple, does anyone know what that means?
 
Judson Carroll
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Nicole Blank wrote:Judson - A hike sounds pretty cool, my ideal date would be kayaking, love it!
I'm not into bars I'll skip that party, I prefer to stay in than go out, a coffee shop is the  exception.

Pete - If you don't mind sharing, what is your idea of a good philosophical topic?

Michael - setting the kitchen on fire, that's funny! Also clown paint agreed, although I can kill it with an eyeliner pencil, that's all I need.

Jordan - right on. I feel like I have a lot to offer, I've been showered with praise my whole life about what a good wife and mother I'd be, from both men and women, unfortunately I can't seem to get to that place, I've come to the conclusion I'm undatable...what's the cure for that?

I have apparently earned an apple, does anyone know what that means?



An apple means someone liked your post a lot.  I enjoy kayaking and canoeing, but we have a bit too much whitewater here in the mountains to take someone out whose skill levels you don't know.  I plan to spend some time this winter down in SC and am looking foreward to exploring the rivers and lakes with my fishing kayak - tons of water, from navigable streams to the Great Pee Dee River, fresh water and salt water.  Should be fun!
 
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Hi Nicole;  
An apple is given for an outstanding helpful post!  
Or the apple-thrower likes what you have to say and wants to let you know that your post was enjoyed and appreciated.
Only Pollinator's and staff have apples to throw.
But you can give a thumbs up if you like a post.
 
Pete Arthur
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Nicole Blank wrote:

Pete - If you don't mind sharing, what is your idea of a good philosophical topic?



Is there good and evil, if so, how do you quantify their value?
 
Nicole Blank
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Judson - that sounds amazing! I've only done lake kayaking, I'm very small and light as a feather, not sure if that makes a difference or not when it comes to skill level.

To whomever gave me this apple, thank you!🙂 What are you suppose to do with these apples?
 
Nicole Blank
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Pete - "Is there good and evil?" I would say yes, just as you have day and night, truth and lies and so on, you cannot have one without the other you must have both.

"How to quantify their value?" You'll need a scale...it's your heart!💜 Where your treasure lies there your heart will be also, what do you value more? Truth or lies, darkness or light, good or evil?
 
pollinator
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Yeah, the advice to "just get out there" is not helpful for introverts. I used to push myself to do all the things people suggest. I went to the bar on Friday night, then hid the rest of the weekend to recover enough to be able to deal politely with humans at work on Monday. I took the fun, learn a new language or skill type classes, but most people around here don't usually go to them alone, so, on the rare chance there is someone you want to get to know, you have to break in on a friend group to meet them. Awkward. I did some college courses in subjects I was interested in, thinking a whole term would be long enough to actually get to know someone in my slow, introverted way (which was another problem with the other kinds of classes - not long enough to make a connection with someone). I went to parties at strangers' houses. That was even more exhausting than going to the bar - too many people to be comfortable, not enough to be lost in a crowd. I have a friend who strikes up conversations with cashiers, wait staff, anyone he encounters by making self deprecating jokes or telling an embarrassing story. He's gotten a few dates that way from women who work at places he goes to often. I tried a version of that. Or tried to try. Turns out there really aren't many men in service industries I frequent.

All that stuff took up a lot of time and it was extremely unpleasant to do. It also required downtime to recharge afterwards, sometimes days. The cost to benefit ratio didn't make any sense, when i could count on one hand the number of times I was even slightly interested in someone. So the whole thing was life sapping and profoundly discouraging.

That's when I decided to try online dating. I seem to be in the minority about my enthusiasm for online dating, but being introverted was exactly the reason it was so helpful to me. I'm okay with writing stuff online, that's not exhausting to me. After one or two messages I could generally tell whether a guy was compatible enough to continue talking to. The vaaaast majority weren't. Getting to that point in the real world was a long, exhausting process. Just getting to the point of finding someone you'd like to TRY to talk to is an exhausting process in the real world.

So, no solutions, but I sympathize.
 
Judson Carroll
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On reflection... I'm not really all that introverted, but being a self employed author doesn't get me out among people much.  When I do meet someone, it is usually online so we chat for a while before meeting.  I think that is why the hiking date works.  I just finished writing the last chapter of my cookbook - desserts, of course, and Rice Pudding because I am old family, NC.  Tomorrow, the long process of editing and revisions begins... 220 unformatted pages written in less than 3 months! (probably 300 or so once formatted).   This is the 8th book I have written.  So, to say my social skills are atrophied may be an understatement, at least in terms of going into groups and talking with strangers.  A lot of us Permies have odd jobs and unconventional lives.
 
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Same boat, small talk is a nightmare, especially on online dating! I think the ingredients needed are exposure and time, regardless of level of extroversion, and the special sauce is shared interests; something that shifts the focus away from the personal but can be shaded by it.

I've considered classes; as previously mentioned, it suits exposure and time but adult classes lack the "confinement?" and reliance on others that being enrolled in a school program has. Many people are taking the class for a different reason than meeting people as well, often it's for work and they have no personal interest beyond advancing their career or if they do have an interest in the class it's to learn a personal skill. Many of the classes I can imagine don't lend themselves well to encouraging people to work together/rely on each other or their goal doesn't make for a great conversational piece because it's self evident. I'd suggest taking a class if it's something that interests you or you want to acquire the skill, and if you meet someone bonus! For myself, for example, the most likely candidate for a class in which people would work together & share an interest would be either bee keeping or some other permaculture class where i'd have the chance to talk indirectly about myself and my goals through a shared interest topic.

Another avenue would be table top gaming; it too provides an indirect method to talk about interests, and allows for self expression beyond that of small talk. It fulfills quite the niche by allowing a direct conversation in an indirect way with people that are invested in the conversation. It's superbly suited to those who want to dive head first in topics like philosophy in contrast to "nice weather we're having." Akin to this would be a club that is focused on exploring ideas/topics or debating.

My approach to dating has evolved to be "Do you, and see if someone shows up" lol. Just live your life doing the things you want to do, and the person that shows up in that life is the one that wants to be there.    
 
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Michael Adamson wrote:

Pete Arthur wrote:

At this point, I'm preparing to go hide in a cave while the NPC's eat each other.



Lol got a belly roll from this.  

I personally no longer care what others think of me so I dive into the deep end many times. Loved driving a cab a couple years ago, as I could feel how deep a conversation I could have.  Some very deep, got the husband riding up front to put down his book while went down the rabbit hole with his wife. He commented that I must be a sage.

F it don't have the superficial convo, dive into the deep end and scare em off.  You never know who has dove in deeper than you unless you open up

 
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I’ve become increasingly more introverted..a friend told me , the other day , that I was the closest thing to a hermit , he knows of .  Guess it’s true , I really prefer to never to come out of the forest ..I’m so addicted to my particular lifestyle and my groove, that the prospects of finding a kindred , are pretty slim and I don’t see me compromising , much. I enjoy company , but often find myself looking forward to their absence , before too long . I do get lonely for this vision of someone , that I’ve held on to  , but yet to see. I’m kind of at that giving up stage
 
Nicole Blank
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Thomas - thank you for explaining what an apple is, you answered the question very clearly, and it was easy to follow.

Jan - I agree, I find written communication less exhausting upone first attempt to get to know someone, probably because I can step away from it before actually sending anything.

Judson - desserts! The very best😋 while I can burn a kitchen down with my cooking abilities lol or lack there of, earlier comment about kitchen in flames = funny! I love to bake, and can make an amazing tiramisu.
 
Nicole Blank
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Justin - while all of these suggestions are good ones, unfortunately for the introverted person, we're not going to deliberately place ourselves willingly into these types of settings, especially when you can learn or teach yourself anything from YouTube.
 
pollinator
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I'm extremely introverted but I spend so much time on my property that when I go out and finally interact with others (not my adult kids), I can actually be quite chatty. Sometimes I look back and think, was that me? That doesn't sound like me.

Bars are really only for drinkers and hookups. The alcohol deals with the introvert problem. It's a quick and easy way to get laid, period. Not for relationships.

Personally as far as philosophical questions, I like something more along the lines of who is your favorite philosopher, Kant, Sartre, Foucault, the Stoics etc. Nietzsche is a red flag for me, although that's more of a problem with his followers than anything else.

 
Nicole Blank
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Ben - I knew a man who for years was a dead set never getting married happy bachelor, who at the young age of around 60 something just found his someone, don't give up.

For myself as a women though, I would prefer not to wait that long, as I haven't completely ruled out having a child yet...yet.
 
Nicole Blank
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Stacy - that's the flip side, I can be extremely chatty with people I know.

I don't drink, smoke, or do any kind of drugs never have, never will. I don't hook-up, I don't want all the guys I just want one, I don't think that's to much to ask, but apparently it is.
 
Stacy Witscher
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Nicole - I'm not saying that you should, but rather that's the point of it. Everyone should do what they want. I have my kids. I'm not looking for a baby daddy or husband, just a partner. My choices are likely very different from yours and that's fine. Honestly, I settled when I was younger because I wanted more kids. I don't regret the kids, but their fathers were useless, but that's just my experience. Hopefully you can find what you are looking for. I wish you all the best.
 
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hi nicole,

just my two cents here, but I would look at things from a different perspective. I too consider myself rather introverted. What has worked for me in the past, is focusing on what I enjoy and in the process I find others who share those interests. (I think this is why we join Permies in the first place)  And when you really like doing something, you never know who will step into your life. For example, a number of years ago my sister was getting married and I didn't want to be a wall flower at the reception and wanted to be able to confidently lead the ladies on the dance floor. So I signed up for dance lessons. What I didn't realize was how much fun it would be and all the great people I would meet. I really got into it... Six Step, Charleston, Lindy Hop, Shag, Balboa... so much so that I became one of the leading men of that dance community. As an introvert... were there times I just didn't feel like going out... didn't feel like socializing... didn't feel like making laborious small talk to strangers? Absolutely. But this is what I discovered: have you ever not wanted to do something or go somewhere, but when you got there, you had a great time? It was kinda like that. It's easy to talk yourself out of something, "work was hell this week..." or "I'm exhausted..." but, I went out to every friday and saturday night dance. When I look back, I am so glad I pushed myself out of my comfort zone... and some years later I read this somewhere... and it's true...

"A comfort zone is a beautiful place, but nothing ever grows there."

So, I wouldn't focus on dating (especially if its the epitome of hell lol). I don't. But find where you will have fun... where you'll meet interesting new people and let life take its course.

just my two cents, and I hope it helps.
 
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I am an introvert and was very shy ten years ago and still am, just slightly less.

I have met three people who I considered for a relationship.
The first during university time when we got into a discussion on what is a good way to get into research as an undergraduate. It was not bad but also not close enough. She invited me to a bar and I am never going to go to one again.

The second one was a sister of a friend who invited me to stay with his family for a while. We got along very well, but the age difference was a bit too much for her liking. And she needed a few years more experience to make that decision, so I treated her with respect while I stayed there and nothing happened.

The third found a post of me on permies and wrote me an email asking about some advice. I offered her to chat on telegram because I find that easier with people who want to know something but can't quite specify it exactly. It got a bit sidetracked and we ended up talking about permaculture and world politics, and apparently that sparked her interest in me. After we first talked in video I also found her quite likable. A few months later I am now in the same city and we meet whenever possible. (Religion has slowed things down a bit.)
 
Judson Carroll
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Nicole Blank wrote:Judson - that sounds amazing! I've only done lake kayaking, I'm very small and light as a feather, not sure if that makes a difference or not when it comes to skill level.

To whomever gave me this apple, thank you!🙂 What are you suppose to do with these apples?



As we say in Permaculture in regard to most things, "It depends."  I won't say everything, because I agree with you in regard to good and evil.  But as for kayaking you definitely need some experience before tackling certain rivers.   Many waters here in the mountains are calm for a few miles, then you round a bend and hit major rapids.  We have lots of waterfalls, too.  you need to be able to read the water, not panic if you get into trouble and have mapped the river before hand.  A lot of people don't and they get hurt, or worse.  So, in that regard, size would not be much of an issue.  On the other hand, the low country rivers and salt marshes I plan to explore soon are completely different.  For instance, the Lynches River is just barely deep and wide enough for a canoe in many places and has a lot of low limbs and tight brush where it is narrow.  I am really looking forward to kayaking it in Jan-Feb when the shad and herring begin running upstream.  You can catch bushels of them, smoke them to enjoy all year and the roe is nearly on par with caviar.  Shad fishing used to be a major industry int he Carolinas, but now just a few of us woodsy and water, country boy types do it.  But, I am 6'4" and a lean 220 lbs.  So, you would definitely have an easier time squeezing through such tight spots where I would probably have to wade and hack my way through with a manchette.
 
Judson Carroll
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Nicole Blank wrote:Thomas - thank you for explaining what an apple is, you answered the question very clearly, and it was easy to follow.

Jan - I agree, I find written communication less exhausting upone first attempt to get to know someone, probably because I can step away from it before actually sending anything.

Judson - desserts! The very best😋 while I can burn a kitchen down with my cooking abilities lol or lack there of, earlier comment about kitchen in flames = funny! I love to bake, and can make an amazing tiramisu.



I am really more of a meat and fish, sauces, gravy and savories kind of guy.  I pickle/ferment a lot and bake sourdough bread and pizza weekly.  My food heritage is largely French and southern, so cooking is in the blood.  I do love tiramisu though!  Dessert for me is usually fruit, chocolate and nuts.  But, custards and ice cream never go uneaten!
 
Ben Child
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Nicole Blank wrote:Ben - I knew a man who for years was a dead set never getting married happy bachelor, who at the young age of around 60 something just found his someone, don't give up.

For myself as a women though, I would prefer not to wait that long, as I haven't completely ruled out having a child yet...yet.



I’m sure that happens . It would , indeed, be a miracle, in my case ..I’ve tasted a level of freedom that it’s hard to return from , but that scares the shit out of most people..I’ve seen woman , that I imagine , could appreciate , but they’re  far and few and I’m not able to transverse my desire to be attracted by the outside of the vessel..I just wanna see lots of freckles and a slender frame ..it doesn’t seem too great an obstacle , but apparently it is .

I’ve had children , though they were unnecessary raised in a bit of war and struggle. We homeschooled and they are successful and I’m proud of them , but it was a lot of pain in a hard relationship..
 There is a bit of crazy in me , that’s thought about this coming age , where if men die at a hundred years , it’s as if a small child..an extension of life..I’ve treated this temple , that I reside in , well ..juicing , raw foods , doing right ..my hopes are that i walk in and have that experience , that Job type of experience, a redo of sorts ..I’d love to be a dad , again , and raise children in a harmonious way ..it’s still a great desire  
 
Nicole Blank
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To any and all who have taken the time to post to my thread, thank you.

Believe it or not I'm finding everyone's input very helpful, this year has been a year of many firsts and changes for myself, to even be on a site or talking to anyone pushes me outside of my comfort zone, but I'm getting better at it and it's becoming easier.

Also as a side note, I feel I should address this about myself, because it keeps coming up. I do not disclose my exact location or my phone number EVER. This is deliberately done for my own safety and peace of mind. While I have progressed with certain individuals on this site to actually meeting in person or would be willing to give my number, I have also had creepy experiences with others.

So for anyone that wants to get to know me better, it would have to be in writing for a time, before I would feel comfortable disclosing more private information.

 
Ben Child
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Nicole Blank wrote:To any and all who have taken the time to post to my thread, thank you.

Believe it or not I'm finding everyone's input very helpful, this year has been a year of many firsts and changes for myself, to even be on a site or talking to anyone pushes me outside of my comfort zone, but I'm getting better at it and it's becoming easier.

Also as a side note, I feel I should address this about myself, because it keeps coming up. I do not disclose my exact location or my phone number EVER. This is deliberately done for my own safety and peace of mind. While I have progressed with certain individuals on this site to actually meeting in person or would be willing to give my number, I have also had creepy experiences with others.

So for anyone that wants to get to know me better, it would have to be in writing for a time, before I would feel comfortable disclosing more private information.



I thought this was more a philosophical thread, given the title and that there’s like zero information on you..age , appearance , or anything .
I totally agree with the caution , though ..the internet is a horrible place to develop an idea of someone’s being ..campfires are the best
 
Nicole Blank
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Thank you Ben you make a good point, I was thinking on that this morning.

This is not a philosophical thread, I enjoy very much philosophical discussion, but this is more my attempt as an introvert to connect with other singles who are also introverted, or who wouldn't mind getting to know one, but can't stand the dating scene. Which is why I decided to start my own thread, and not start posting to someone else's.

I wasn't quite ready to put my full blown profile on as single and available, so I thought I'd just try making connections and see if anything comes of it, such as shared interest or the like.

I guess this is my best attempt being an introvert, trying to connect, I'm probably doing it wrong. Sorry in advance 🙂

I won't put my photograph on this site, but I have shared my appearance with certain individuals privately, most of them think I'm cute.

I'm Female 30, single but open to getting to know someone. I'm short at 5 feet and not an inch taller. I weigh 90lbs at the most, I'm a feather. I'm also an artist ink is my favorite, I love coffee, the beach, and cats! Lol I hope that helps. Feels wierd to put it all out there.




 
Ben Child
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Nicole Blank wrote:Thank you Ben you make a good point, I was thinking on that this morning.

This is not a philosophical thread, I enjoy very much philosophical discussion, but this is more my attempt as an introvert to connect with other singles who are also introverted, or who wouldn't mind getting to know one, but can't stand the dating scene. Which is why I decided to start my own thread, and not start posting to someone else's.

I wasn't quite ready to put my full blown profile on as single and available, so I thought I'd just try making connections and see if anything comes of it, such as shared interest or the like.

I guess this is my best attempt being an introvert, trying to connect, I'm probably doing it wrong. Sorry in advance 🙂

I won't put my photograph on this site, but I have shared my appearance with certain individuals privately, most of them think I'm cute.

I'm Female 30, single but open to getting to know someone. I'm short at 5 feet and not an inch taller. I weigh 90lbs at the most, I'm a feather. I'm also an artist ink is my favorite, I love coffee, the beach, and cats! Lol I hope that helps. Feels wierd to put it all out there.






I think all that is smart .. I don’t think you did anything wrong, actually .the singles section has had , as of late , a series of questions , that have been put there to engage conversation ..I just supposed it was one of those. You sound like a gem
 
Nicole Blank
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Thank you Ben, your words are kind🙂

If I'm a gem💎 sometimes I feel like I must be locked in a chest, sunk at the bottom of the ocean, where no one will ever find me.
 
Did Steve tell you that? Fuh - Steve. Just look at this tiny ad:
Work Trade for the 2023 Garden Master Course
https://permies.com/wiki/190487/permaculture-projects/Work-Trade-Garden-Master
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