In your humble opinion, what is wrong with dating today?

Youtube recently listed a suggestion for a video about something dating related and I watched it. I don't recall what the first one was that triggered it, but apparently watching one suggested video on dating turns half of your video suggestions into dating videos. I was intrigued and have watched quite a few at this point. I'm not sure it is a rabbit hole I would recommend venturing down to, well, anyone. But it has definitely been an eye-opening and thought provoking experience.

Most of what I've seen has revolved around Tik-Tok. I don't do Tik-Tok, but apparently there's a near infinite amount of videos of people standing in front of a camera talking about dating. Some are heart felt and sad, some are angry, some are comical, some are bewildering, but virtually all are bad. I am absolutely shocked at how bad some are, and how some people truly seem to feel. There is now apparently an equally large army of people on Youtube showing these videos and breaking them down and analyzing and pontificating on the hows and whys and wheres, particularly from the other side.

I think dating has always been a very inexact science to say the least, but I am absolutely bewildered at some of what I have seen. Society has been changing at an exponential rate, and it makes sense that something as big as dating would have to change along with it. Now we hear about Chad's, Pick Me's, simps, MGTOW, "The Wall," and many other new words and phrases to describe this strange new world.

I know there is a stark contrast between city people and country people. I believe a lot of this is so foreign to me because virtually all of these videos are from city people. And I'm sure there is quite a bit of disingenuousness in them because people are after as many views and likes as possible. But I still get the feeling that there is a lot of very disturbing truth coming through. It seems that there has been a major upheaval to the very fabric of society, especially when it comes to dating and marriage.

In any case, it appears that the number of people unhappy with the current dating situation is alarmingly high and growing quickly, and I can see it myself. Maybe we can brainstorm and learn more about the situation and learn from it. Maybe we can learn about ourselves. Perhaps even some people here could feel so similarly about what is wrong that it could serve as a starting point for a relationship. So, in your humble opinion what is wrong with dating today?

To much me first attitude and need for near instant gratifications pushed by fast passed social media.

I am beginning to believe that many people either see everything as short term or some are just trying to get a partner as a financial plan.
In Australia there is a growing number of men who are having the cut so they never have children and that affects the scene a lot I think.
It could be they do not want the responsibility of a family.
I often hear women speek of wanting to be married, I dont hear people saying they want a loving partner they are happy to spend a lifetime with.
In my case I was left with the view I was just a 'sperm bank'.

What is wrong with dating is that like so much else in modern society it has become globalised, and industrialised.  The internet means you can watch in great detail how other people do it, and there is the market for people to commercialise on that and SELL voyeurism and how to do it.  It's become a lifestyle choice, like weddings have, people feel compelled to be the best at it.

Whilst thinking about the language of it, however, I was amused to reflect on weird dating conventions and etiquette of the past, like how in Victorian times you could communicate with your intended partner by waving your fan in a certain way or sending a posy of certain flowers to convey a message.  So I think it is human nature to make a ritual of seeking a partner!



 

And to add to that, I could still "date" without being any part of that dating "scene".  I could meet someone whilst out with friends and like them, engineer another encounter and arrange to meet up again after that, explore what we have in common, decide to spend more and more time together, etc etc... all without knowing what a Chad or a Pick-Me is, in blissful ignorance.  I don't even have to call it "dating".  In fact that might be one of my criteria for a successful courtship, to never think of it or call it "dating"!

I don't date.  Haven't for nearly decades now and it suits me very well.  With that background in mind I made a joking comment to a younger coworker about wanting to date him for his handyman skills. Immediately I  could tell from the look on his face thar had actually happened to him 😳

I don't date because if I was going to form an attachment bond to anyone it would have been the last man I dated and it wasn't happening. I have never had a bad dating experience. That seems to be very rare.  I am not even sure what people are looking for these days.   It doesn't seem to be a partner to build a life together with.   It seems like even those in relationships are careful to keep their lives easily separable.

there is the market for people to commercialise on that and SELL voyeurism

Exactly. And which video is more likely to collect views -- one titled "My Happy Dating Experience" versus "My Dating Horror Story Will SHOCK You!!!"

City vs. Country hasn't really surprised me at all.   It's mostly about lifestyle and what they think a partner should look like.   It's all a bit "product" oriented, imo.   It's not about finding a person.    It's about ordering a collection of parts to insert into a gap  or a particular need.   Less about meeting people and seeing if they "click".  

Internet dating has been SUPER strange.   Every once in a while I pop into a dating site for a bit..  and then quietly tiptoe away just like last time ROFLOL.  

You're really asking the big questions here Jordan! Living in the 2020s we're all being subject to huge and rapid changes, politically, socially, culturally, in just about every way possible. Frankly I think young folks are all a bit confused and disoriented, myself included.

I closed myself off to dating for quite some time. I'd go on dates with girls and have fun, but never really take the next step. I used to tell myself that it was to avoid hurting them, but now I think it was to avoid getting hurt myself. I have a really big heart, which is great but it makes me very vulnerable too. Only recently after a death in the family forced me to go through being really really sad have I opened myself up. I think in going through the griveing process I realized that I'm a whole lot stronger than I once thought. I can handle pain, grief and sadness. I just need to make space for those feelings. Since actually opening myself up emotionally I've met someone! She is very easy to talk to, super outgoing and openminded, and reaaally pretty to boot. I think it's going somewhere with her and I don't know where exactly yet but I am very excited to see.  

But had I met her in 2019, when I was going through my eco-depression (only phrase I can come up with) I probably would have shut things down before they could go anywhere. Too much vulnerability, no thanks! But now I realize that even if I do get my heart broken, fundamentally I am okay. I might get sad, angry, frightened, and feel any other negative emotion there is. But they all pass in the end. It's not only opening up to romance and all its ups and downs but to life itself. It's exciting, but scary as hell at times too. I cry way more than I used to. I remember I'd take pride in the fact that I'd cry once a year or less. I was content the vast majority of the time. But the price I paid for that was big - basically I was missing out on half of life. I think it was the death in my family and my explorations of Buddhism through Pema Chodron that have changed the path I was on. It's learning to not only live with but enjoy groundlessness, or that sort of queasy unsure feeling that we all get from time to time. It's learning to move towards that feeling and exploring it rather than running away.

That's me at least. In terms of dating in general I'd say the internet and the ultra commodification of just about everything have greatly contributed to how dating is today. I was on dating apps for a couple months, and it was strange having to sum up who I am in just a few sentences. Not only that, but making sure it was clever and funny! That was the first challenge. The second was messaging matches. About 85-90% of the matches I got never responded to my first message. Some responded a couple times, only to go totally silent and without explanation (called ghosting I think). It's tough, and I can see how people get jaded by stuff like this. I think a lot of the MGTOW and manosphere stuff comes from guys getting frustrated and sad about their failed dating attempts. But not just that, because as far as I know these movements didn't exist before the internet. One of the internets' great strengths is that there is a community online for just about anything you can think of. This is also a weakness too though. These frustrated young guys often find their way to these communities one way or another, and find solace in them. The downside is that these groups are full of outright sexism and often lots of evolutionary psychology twisted to fit the sexist narrative. The whole red pill thing is where it seems to culminate. The red pill itself is just another version of reality that someone can dsicover online nowadays through an echo chamber where dissent is silenced or banned. It sucks.

What I'm focusing on to help fix this is getting in touch with my own emotions. Sounds a bit silly, but I think it's the way to go. I think one of the best ways to change how masculinity is currently defined is to set the example for a new, healthier version. I see so many of my friends feeling anger when I know underneath there is a sadness they're afraid to feel.

Sorry if this was a bit of a rant. You asked a great question, and I'm curious what others have to say about it.

In the past dating was related to marriage. You didn't date at all unless you were of age and maturity and means to get married, and you dated for the purpose of discovering if the other person was marriageable. If you thought it was a good match you introduced them to your family, and if you still thought it was a good match, you got married, usually pretty quickly, and that was that.

This is how my wife and I did it, and I believe it is still done this way, in some areas.

Edit to add: In the course of dating as described above, if either party decides it is not a good match, they say so, and both sides move on. This can usually be determined within a relatively short period of time.

The internet.

I have not dated in a long time because I have been married a long time.

Why is it that folks have to use the internet to find dates?

My recommendation is to look around and find someone that is real to ask out.  This person could be someone at work or at places that a person visits.

This is just my opinion as to "What is wrong with dating today?"

I think the reaon you are seeing so many angry, disingenuous people on the internet talking about dating is because the people that aren't lame are going on about their lives doing things, including dating.  In my experience, positive people are out doing things while negative people are sitting around talking about how it's impossible to do things.

Anne Miller wrote:The internet.

I have not dated in a long time because I have been married a long time.

Why is it that folks have to use the internet to find dates?

My recommendation is to look around and find someone that is real to ask out.  This person could be someone at work or at places that a person visits.

This is just my opinion as to "What is wrong with dating today?"

I've thought about this myself.  I want to agree with you, and trot down the local shop where I know there is a single guy about the right age who I have a passing acquaintance with, who is pleasant enough company until you get him onto politics, and ask him out. I think he's gay actually, so it might not work out in the long term.  So there are a couple of reasons I think this doesn't work so well these days:

People don't NEED to get married any more.  A few generations ago, there was certainly a perception that you needed to be married, especially as a woman you would need a man to support you, deal with choosing which car to buy and tell you which way to vote etc, and as a working man you needed a wife to cook and clean etc.  So people can afford to be pickier and stay single longer.

A few generations ago, yes people worked at their marriage and learnt to love the person they had ended up with, and sometimes this worked wonderfully but there were also many people who lived a vaguely miserable rest of their lives, or much worse.  Case in point the guy above who is probably gay but in times gone by would have got married anyway to decrease his chances of ending up in jail or in an asylum being chemically castrated.

For better or worse, we have so much more choice and mobility and illustrations of "happiness" (whether real or fictionalised) it is almost paralysing us in trying to find the right person, just because we can so why settle for living vaguely miserably?

We have more leisure time to go out and find alternative companionship, so the itch to find one special person isn't so urgent.

Similar things have been discussed on the "50's singles thread" but I think they are just as applicable to younger age groups.

Hester said, "People don't NEED to get married any more.

There are still lots of folks who want to get married.  It might be that they want the long-term relationship that marriage offers.

Then there are people who want children and feel they need a relationship that can offer stability.

Some folks still want long-term relationships even if marriage is not in the picture.

Why not go ahead and make friends with that guy at the local ship?  He probably may have guy friends that you might find interesting.  And those friends might have other guy friends, etc.

I have known some long-term friendships that have endured time.

At the risk of diverting the topic from dating to marriage, recall that in past generations "till death do us part" usually meant a few decades at best. At current life expectancy, even a delayed marriage can mean a 50-70 year commitment.

I once read that a prime "danger zone" for divorce is shortly after retirement, when the couple no longer gets to spend most of the day away from each other and has to really examine how common their common interests are.

Dc Stewart wrote:At the risk of diverting the topic from dating to marriage, recall that in past generations "till death do us part" usually meant a few decades at best. At current life expectancy, even a delayed marriage can mean a 50-70 year commitment.

In 1850, a person who made it to the marriageable age of 20 could expect to live about another 40 years. These days, if you make it to the marriageable age of 30 you can expect to live about another 45-50 years. That's a bit longer than in 1850, but not a huge amount.
https://www.infoplease.com/us/health-statistics/life-expectancy-age-1850-2011

I don't think it needs to be forever.   I"m a different person than I was at 20.    I married young,  chose a guy who worked hard and made a good dad,  raised our kid for over a decade.

Then,  we started growing in different directions.   It was strained.  There wasn't really a compromise other than both of us not having/being where we wanted to be.   We both had issues we needed to work on,  and the compatibility wasn't there anymore.    It was hard and sad.   Separating was the RIGHT thing to do, for everyone involved.  

He and I are good friends now (without benefits, lol).    We both have healthy separate relationships with our now-adult daughter.   I think that is all OK.

What's wrong is people are more unhealthy, both physically and emotionally, than ever before.  Unhealthy people don't think clearly and make poor decisions.  So for two unhealthy people to come together to form a meaningful relationship is unlikely.  This is why self help is so prevalent in the relationship niche.  If people were healthy they could be easily matched to a compatible partner.

John Wolfram wrote:

Dc Stewart wrote:At the risk of diverting the topic from dating to marriage, recall that in past generations "till death do us part" usually meant a few decades at best. At current life expectancy, even a delayed marriage can mean a 50-70 year commitment.

In 1850, a person who made it to the marriageable age of 20 could expect to live about another 40 years. These days, if you make it to the marriageable age of 30 you can expect to live about another 45-50 years. That's a bit longer than in 1850, but not a huge amount.
https://www.infoplease.com/us/health-statistics/life-expectancy-age-1850-2011

That's the thing, "marriageable age" is a lot older now.  So people have experienced a lot more of the world, and their expectations of a partner, rightly or wrongly, are higher/more complex/different.

Anne Miller wrote:Why not go ahead and make friends with that guy at the local ship?  He probably may have guy friends that you might find interesting.  And those friends might have other guy friends, etc.

OK, I went to the theatre with him once, because there was a play we both wanted to see and he doesn't drive.  It wasn't a date.  He invited me to a Shakespeare quiz night he was organising, I've seen him act, he's seen me act, we are friends on fb.  I know enough about him that I don't view him as potential partner material, and I assume the reverse holds true.  We could dig into those reasons and decide whether I'm being unreasonably picky, but it comes back to I don't NEED to consider him as a partner, I'm not that desperate, to put it bluntly.

He may have friends I would find interesting but I actually have other friends of my own with whom I have more in common, so I hold out hope that maybe one of them will bring an interesting friend along, but they haven't yet...  I wonder why not.  

I haven't been part of the dating scene for several years. Very thankful for that, as it was beyond weird and frustrating to me. I think internet dating has done some very weird things to people's brains and behaviors. I think the illusion of infinite choice can lead people to think the grass is always greener and keep looking rather than actually get to know anyone. That in turn leads to them treating the people they're meeting less personally. Lots of shallow interaction and disappearing when it's no longer convenient for them. At least that was my experience. There were also lots of people just being creepy and wanting naked pics when I'd only just started talking to them via computer or text. Gross. Seems they confused internet dating with porn. Seemingly always expecting instant "connection" and gratification and some getting irate when they didn't get what they wanted.

I know when I was dating, it felt like everyone was playing games rather than just being themselves and trying to get to know another person. I often felt like I was being treated as a means to an end, rather than an end in myself. Looking back, I feel like meeting someone with the expectation of it "going somewhere" interferes with actual connection and discovering who someone is. In my experience, it lead to lots of overthinking and trying to strategize rather than speaking from the heart. I've been reflecting on how wanting to get to know a certain person with the hope of it turning romantic actually kept me from forming a genuine connection with them. I really wish I could have let the expectation go and just gotten to know them as a person, because by all counts, they seem to be an awesome one. But now, it always seems like when I try to connect with them, there's a certain tension in the way and it makes me deeply sad that I didn't just focus on being a friend to them.

I think it's interesting how the person I did end up with, I initially had no intention of dating or a romantic relationship. We were just friends hanging out in the garden and in front of the fire together. As time went on, I started noticing that every time I'd go on a date with some person from the internet, I'd think about how I didn't enjoy spending time with them as much as I did with the person who is now my partner. I was on a dating site at the time and one day, it sent me an email with potential matches. It had matched me with my friend! It felt awkward. It wasn't till several weeks later when he just told me how he felt that the friendship turned into a romantic relationship. I just feel like I got to know him so much better without all the pretense of trying to only present what would be "desirable". Plus, I got to see that he cared about me and was there for me when I needed a friend, which is what made me fall for him.

Back to the games, I also recall watching videos from dating coaches in an attempt to navigate the weirdness. Some of them were genuinely helpful and mostly focused on seeing yourself as a worthy person and not putting up with people who treated you otherwise. They suggested that as a woman, you shouldn't initiate contact, rather waiting for the man to do so. At the time, I found this weird and it felt like a strategy. In retrospect, I see it could be a great way to protect oneself from some of the weird behavior, save time and energy and value yourself rather than plead for attention from someone who is treating you as an option. Interestingly, my partner was given advice not to pursue women and to let them approach him. He's shared that it was also something he did because of how many women friends had told him stories of men making them uncomfortable by being way too pushy. Naturally, he didn't want to be one of those men. I wonder how much of people's behavior in dating is based either on trying to avoid being perceived as a negative stereotype of their gender and/or conflicting dating advice.

Cam Haslehurst wrote:What I'm focusing on to help fix this is getting in touch with my own emotions. Sounds a bit silly, but I think it's the way to go. I think one of the best ways to change how masculinity is currently defined is to set the example for a new, healthier version. I see so many of my friends feeling anger when I know underneath there is a sadness they're afraid to feel.

I think you've hit the nail on the head, here Cam. It's not silly at all! I think you're absolutely right and that's a wise choice. Vulnerability is all too often viewed as weakness when it is in fact immense strength. I think lots of people act weird in dating to avoid feeling vulnerable and instead, use it as a way to numb out. Focusing on building emotional intelligence and strength to feel all the feels is definitely a big part of the solution in my mind. For everyone, not just men.

That said, vulnerability requires there to be established boundaries. Being vulnerable with someone else is a gift and it shouldn't be given unless they've shown they are a safe person and worthy of it. I've seen plenty of people who share the most intimate details of their lives with complete strangers (often, I've been said stranger). This is a great recipe for getting hurt if the person you're sharing with doesn't have good intent. I think that's why it's so important to get to know someone slowly and take time to let them show you who they are and build trust. That doesn't mean you can't be vulnerable at all through that process. Just that it needs to be done with discernment and in a way that matches the level of trust already built. I think a lot of people are confused about the difference between healthy boundaries and walls. Boundaries are mostly just about knowing and communicating what is and isn't okay for you. They help keep things safe and respectful. They also might mean some people don't get to be around or that you limit the kind of connection with them. Walls are more like armoring yourself so you don't have to be vulnerable or feel anything. They keep any real connection, other than very surface level ones out. I've experienced lots of folks who have no boundaries and get upset when other people do. I've also experienced lots of folks with serious walls in many different forms. I expect both behaviors may be fairly common and either would be pretty limiting when trying to date. Someone who's much wiser and more eloquent about vulnerability and boundaries than I is Brene Brown. I'd highly recommend checking out her work to anyone trying to develop better connection with themselves and others.

I think that there is a lot of accurate points in this thread. And I think the problem is a cumulation of a lot of them.

The Internet has created a lot of problems in this realm of society.
- Instant gratification
- Infinite Options: Think about Tinder, you have nearly limitless possibilities it makes it near impossible for someone not to live with the attitude of "well I can just find someone else" while not bad in in itself, it's an attitude that makes it way too easy to disregard a potential soul mate too early, to not try your best to work through problems in a relationship, to not compromise AT ALL.. because you know, you can just  hop on your phone and find someone who suits you better (which isnt actually true, but that is the promise of it). Mr or Mrs. Perfect is out there somewhere and if I just look hard enough I will find them.
- Confirmation Bias: I haven't heard this one yet, but the internet makes it easy to confirm your biases no matter what they are. Did youre SO say something you don't like? Just ask the internet if you are in the right, you will find out you are and probably be encouraged to dump them cause " you deserve better" Nobody holds themselves accountable for anything anymore. In 12 step programs they call it Co-signing Bullshit.
- High mobility, people are not connected to place anymore. I believe this has a lot to do with urbanization and people becoming detached from the land. Detachment from land leads to detachment from community and from that culture. Its too easy to run away and start afresh somewhere new because we arent as deeply connected with the land and with each other as we once were.

My best friend is my age... 32. He has abstained from dating until the last few years because he had goals and dream that he felt he needed to accomplish first. Like Owning a peace of land and starting a permaculture Eden. He finally did so, and now that he is searching for a partner to share it with he has become increasingly frustrated. He continues to find potential matches that see perfect (want to do permaculture, into fitness like he is, enjoys hanging out with him), but they always end up being flighty and not wanting to commit to anything. He's been offered Open relationships, joining poly families, and led on until the person changes their mind at the last second for some other person who they ultimately do the same thing to.

I'm so glad I got married 10 years ago because I don't know how I would handle it. I've seen the kinds of internet content that you talk about. The sad thing is I kinds get where it's coming from. People are confused, and many are resentful. I think there is something to be said for the wisdom of tradition, and while social progress is important, not every tradition broken should be considered progress. And sometimes tradition is broken without that being the primary intent. I doubt the creators of the Internet.. or even Tinder for that matter, imagined they would create these kinds of problems, but people don't think about the ancient fabric that holds cultures together until it has been shredded to pieces.

I think that people have become more discriminating and that's a good thing. In my life, I've been on a couple of dates. I've had long term relationships, lovers, friends with benefits but not so much dating.

I think that in the past a connection, spark with someone, along with being of the same class was enough to try to build a life together. Doesn't sound like enough for me. That's a good way to chose a lover not a life partner. The criteria for me are vastly different.

I've found internet dating completely useless. Now just trying to meet people with similar interests, it will be good for me regardless of whether or not any romantic relationship ensues.

I think that dating has always been a shitshow. People just talk about it more now.

You guys and gals get deep!  
As an old therapist people would come to me and not understand their self let alone trying to understand the other person.
Many times I would ask them what are your values? your beliefs? your morals and they could not answer.  
They do not know where there thoughts came from.  I would help them find their inner core and suddenly they would stumble over someone who shared the same values.  
when you know yourself - you will be happier with yourself and not have to have someone to make you happy.  
The biggest challenge seems to be to put your self in the best "pool" of others like you.  This is why many couples find each at a religious gathering or at a professional conference - shared values, similar outlooks.  
The dating sites - yes I have tried them - give such little info that is important to establish a meting of the minds.
Age makes a difference - there are more single ones from 18 to 30 than 60 to 70 like me!!
I encourage lookers to write down a shopping list of what they feel they would like and make the statements values like "I would like someone who believes in a "green" life and not one of throw away.  
Do not settle for someone show is not similar to your values - it will like the game tug of war - and who really wins - no one
So if you know of a gentleman around age 70 who is a "greenie", who wants to improve things not tear down or throw away, someone who is financially about to care for his self,  cute would be nice not necessary send him this way - might get lucky!

Anne Miller wrote:The internet...

Why is it that folks have to use the internet to find dates?

I would like to jokingly point out the irony of posting that in the personals section of a website!

But that brings up a good question. Paul created Permies to use the internet to help spread the knowledge of permaculture. I think most here would say it has been successful in doing that. How is it that the internet is helping permaculture but harming dating? The internet is inanimate. It just does what people tell it to do. From what I've seen, especially recently, the internet is mostly being used as a communication device; the people are still dating locally. Perhaps it's just less personal. Perhaps it just makes it easier to ghost people, whereas asking a person you see frequently at the local store would not be so easy.

And why use the internet to find someone? It seems there's not many other choices today. For quite some time I've been seeing things posted on facebook, these new videos, and have heard in person from many women how inappropriate it is for men to ask them out at a store, at a restaurant, at a gas station, walking down the street, at the workplace, when they are with friends, when they are with family, when they are alone...virtually everywhere. I suspect it's situational, and they are often rather offended by the lack of effort or the perceived quality of the guy, but how is a guy to know? A dating app would seem a relatively safe place ask without fear of offending someone.

Jordan - I don't know about other women, but the reason that I don't like being approached in public is because they know nothing about me and are going just on appearance. And sometimes, it's aggravated by how I looked at the time. Getting hit on while I was very pregnant although young by much older men felt creepy to me. I prefer to meet people at events where there is a shared interest and a reason to talk.

Stacy Witscher wrote:I think that people have become more discriminating and that's a good thing. In my life, I've been on a couple of dates. I've had long term relationships, lovers, friends with benefits but not so much dating.

I think that in the past a connection, spark with someone, along with being of the same class was enough to try to build a life together. Doesn't sound like enough for me. That's a good way to chose a lover not a life partner. The criteria for me are vastly different.

I've found internet dating completely useless. Now just trying to meet people with similar interests, it will be good for me regardless of whether or not any romantic relationship ensues.

I think that dating has always been a shitshow. People just talk about it more now.

I think Stacy's got a lot of good points here.

I haven't dated since 2010, when I met my husband online. I loved online dating. I'd spent ten years not  getting anywhere in real life (cause dating sucked when I was in my 20s, too), then met my best friend and life partner online in a couple years. I could have settled for a few guys I met in real life, but, as Stacy puts it, I was very discriminating. My friends said picky. And I'm glad I was, cause my husband is sooooo much better than the guys I could have ended up with.

Whoever gave the advice for women to let men come to them online is nuts. In my experience, guys just spam every woman who ends up on their match list. They seem to have a quantity over quality approach. Send enough messages out and you'll eventually get a bite. It would be a lot of work finding a good match if you were just sifting through those.

When I was online, there was one guy who seemed to send out messages to everyone once a week or so. Just said, "Wanna coffee?" The first time I answered politely saying no thanks, I'd like to know something about you first. When I got the next one I caught on to his technique and told him I wouldn't be answering any more cause it was a waste of time. I'm sure he didn't get many responses anyway, but I was careful to always answer people cause I know it sucks to put effort into a message and not get a response. Because I was so specific in my profile and probably, if we're being honest, cause I give off a bit of an I don't give a fuck vibe, I don't think I got spammed as badly as a lot of women.

There was another guy who had an okay message, but it was obvious it was the same generic one he was sending to everyone. I answered with some kind of not interested thanks message. He wrote back being a bit bitchy cause I was turning him down without talking to him first. So I went through his message, pointing out how I could tell it was one he sent to everyone. I told him if he wanted to pique my interest he'd be better off looking at my profile and commenting on something we had in common or asking a question about something on there, maybe make a joke. "But that takes so much time!" he protested. Yes. Yes, it does. And I put in that time to try to have a meaningful exchange every time I contacted a guy.  My best interactions were with guys I contacted, rather than those who contacted me.

I'm sure a lot of guys make a genuine effort, but I tend to be unsympathetic to complaints from guys like the ones Cam mentioned above because of what I've seen. They don't put any effort in, then get pissy when women aren't interested. And these weren't kids, either, raised by the demon internet. Most of these guys were in their 30s.

Anyway, I think online dating can be great and it worked for me.

And I don't think the internet can be blamed for everything. I still think it's those newfangled radios! Humans are the ones going online to wallow in id. And rising divorce rates were the subject of hand wringing even before every house had a computer. We've always liked instant gratification and avoiding hard work. I am very glad I didn't grow up with social media, though. Having every awkward look from adolescence photographed, commented on, and immortalized online? No thanks.

There may be some new ways of doing things and new problems, but, ultimately, I think the kids are all right.

Whoever gave the advice for women to let men come to them online is nuts. In my experience, guys just spam every woman who ends up on their match list. They seem to have a quantity over quality approach.  

I have no doubt that there are some lazy guys out there. I would never do that, but I can also tell you what it's like to spend a month's subscription to Match.com different times over the years because there was one person I currently saw whom I felt would be a good match for me. I would spend an hour or more writing a very thoughtful letter, making sure it was just right. I would send it and...nothing. I won't excuse the behavior of men who spam, but I have often wondered if they started out differently. I wonder if they once put in more work, but after so many times of not getting so much as a single word in exchange for their effort, they resorted to such efforts. I think they may become jaded and do that not so much as a genuine effort to find someone, but rather to "prove" to themselves that "all women are bitches," maybe holding out some miniscule hope that one might prove them wrong.

I think this highlights one of the main issues in dating, though it is not a new one, but possibly exacerbated by the faster pace of the world today. People on both sides may not be trying to empathize with the other side as much as would be optimal. As far as quantity over quality, that can very well be true. But another way of looking at it is that possibly men are more accepting of women. On one of these videos I watched, it stated the statistic that on these new dating apps that have a like/dislike function, men like over 50% of women's profiles, while women like only 5% of men's profiles. Now many would say, "Well yeah, guys just want to get laid!" but I don't think that's fair. Being more selective can be a good thing, but it can also be a very bad thing. I would say the women I see in these videos are very much more selective than in the past. But all the things about which they are more selective are the most superficial. Instead of opening the book and delving further, they are simply judging the cover even more scrupulously. And many may applaud the women for only liking 5% and having such high standards, but that means if a man is not in the top 5% he is wasting his time. So what can we expect the 95% to do? What is so ironic and even offensive is that these men who are willing to give over half of women a chance (whether it is just for sex or even a relationship) are seen as just being after sex and scorned by many women, meanwhile the top 5% are having sex with every woman they want. And those women are crazy about them. Until they get ghosted and then often make a Tik-Tok video about it apparently.

Personally, I think that dating sites are a bad place for casual sex. There are other sites for that, or I don't know, just hit a bar a little before closing. It's not rocket science. That is what I find disappointing about dating sites, people not understanding what they are for. Dating sites are for relationships, not hook ups. I'm not wasting that kind of time on a hook up.

I can tell you that I'm very honest about who I am and what I'm looking for and I have gotten all kinds of nasty responses even though I have only spoken my truth. In my experience, a lot of men really struggle with strong and highly intelligent women. Thankfully my father isn't one of them.

Stacy Witscher wrote:Jordan - I don't know about other women, but the reason that I don't like being approached in public is because they know nothing about me and are going just on appearance. And sometimes, it's aggravated by how I looked at the time. Getting hit on while I was very pregnant although young by much older men felt creepy to me. I prefer to meet people at events where there is a shared interest and a reason to talk.

I'm sure this is right, probably a great deal of the time if the two have never met before. I don't really recall women specifying specifically that the men are complete strangers. Though I do believe this is still unfair to men to some degree at least. It assumes that men are incapable of such things as empathy or intuition. I can say that I can pass by women who are the picture perfect stereotype of being drop-dead gorgeous and not feel a thing. Indeed I often feel a slight sense of negativity towards them. And then I can walk past a woman equally as beautiful or even far less beautiful and feel a very strong attraction. Looking into most women's eyes is pretty bland, but some it feels like I can feel their soul. It's definitely not always about physical beauty, at least for me, and I imagine it must be the same for many others. I don't generally ask out women the first time I meet them, and when I did it was never without a conversation first. I generally always got to know a woman first, meeting her several times before deciding to ask. I must profess that I cannot imagine walking up to strange women and asking them out to have a failure rate any higher than I experienced by getting to know them first, though.

Stacy Witscher wrote:Personally, I think that dating sites are a bad place for casual sex. There are other sites for that, or I don't know, just hit a bar a little before closing. It's not rocket science. That is what I find disappointing about dating sites, people not understanding what they are for. Dating sites are for relationships, not hook ups. I'm not wasting that kind of time on a hook up.

Personally, I don't think there's any good place for casual sex. In any case I have never had any interest for such. And from what I hear these days, from a man's perspective it is extremely risky to hit up a bar before closing looking for that.

I had the exact opposite experience on dating sites. I went there expecting women to be more serious about relationships and not want to play games, but it was mostly just games and "just looking for friends." The point I was trying to make is that many of the women are looking for a relationship, but the top 5% of guys don't care. I'm pretty sure they know what the sites are for and exactly what they are doing. They are just so desired they can get away with it.

My relationship with sex is complicated. For most of my life, I had a very strong sex drive that was never satisfied in my relationships, personally I think  part of that is because I was always involved with older men. I would never advise going more than +/- 5 years. I did and it was a huge mistake. The differences in life experiences are just too extreme and in performance ability.

I have no moral problem with casual sex. Sex is a biological need just like food and water. I'm not religious so I don't have those hang ups. I'm not sure what problem men are incurring in hooking up with women at bars. I've never heard of a problem unless you are talking about wealthy/powerful men receiving consequences for their behavior and for that I say, such is life.

They suggested that as a woman, you shouldn't initiate contact, rather waiting for the man to do so. At the time, I found this weird and it felt like a strategy. In retrospect, I see it could be a great way to protect oneself from some of the weird behavior, save time and energy and value yourself rather than plead for attention from someone who is treating you as an option. Interestingly, my partner was given advice not to pursue women and to let them approach him. He's shared that it was also something he did because of how many women friends had told him stories of men making them uncomfortable by being way too pushy. Naturally, he didn't want to be one of those men. I wonder how much of people's behavior in dating is based either on trying to avoid being perceived as a negative stereotype of their gender and/or conflicting dating advice.

I believe a good man will be extremely flattered and full of respect for a woman who is willing to be straightforward and not waste his time. If a man is offended by it or allows it to go to his head, I think that shows all you need to know about him. My personal advice to women is that if you are physically attractive (by men's definition, not yours), I highly recommend that you do the asking. A humble, loving man will shy away from asking you because he thinks he is not good enough or doesn't have a chance. It may take him some time to convince himself that even though he may not deserve you, he could still possibly be the best one for you, because he will truly cherish you and try harder to make you happy than others. An arrogant man, on the other hand, will take one look at you and think he deserves you, that he needs to conquer you, and will not hesitate to ask you out. A woman in this scenario will likely be dating the worst of the worst if she only waits for men to ask her. One may think the inverse would be true if a woman is not physically attractive, but sadly I don't believe so. I believe she must look out for some men who might try to use her less attractiveness against her to seduce her. But I think a general rule of thumb in today's fast-paced society is to take opportunities when one can, whoever asks first.

Stacy Witscher wrote:
I'm not sure what problem men are incurring in hooking up with women at bars. I've never heard of a problem unless you are talking about wealthy/powerful men receiving consequences for their behavior and for that I say, such is life.

I'm not sure what you mean about wealthy/powerful men, but I was referring to rape allegations. Most places, if a woman has consumed alcohol, it opens a lot of doors to say it wasn't consensual.

My daughter has struggled with this. She is very beautiful, but many men around here want to control her. They view controlling a strong, black woman as a kind of victory and when they realize they can't, they get abusive. My daughter, like me, wants a partner. We are finding that elusive. We don't need a partner, we want one. And conversely, we don't want someone who can't take care of themselves but rather someone who wants to be together. Dependency is not attractive in partners in our mind.

Dating today is evolving so fast, its hard to look at it like a defined object in order to say what is wrong with it.

It appears to me like for a couple or few years now it is in a state of chaos (no negative connotation implied) trying to reach equilibrium.

Online dating has definitely changed things for everyone, but also from my own personal experience, getting older and going through my own changes simultaneously, well, everything is just so different now.

The city-country divide that was mentioned in some posts has blurred with the internet, because with the internet available in the country the city influence has a much farther reach than before. In many cultural ways the country is becoming less isolated and citified.

I live very in a very remote small town surrounded by miles and miles of national forest in every direction. There is Jo traffic lights here, and there is no traffic light for 1.5 hours of driving in any direction.

I've not been able to connect with any of the people in this town, all the good ones are taken, and the rest are all so ignorant despite any natural intelligence, and incestuous,  so I use online dating apps.

Most of the people that come up as potential matches to choose from live at least 50 miles away as the crow flies, and I'd have to drive at least an hour and a half to meet, and the places they live are cities, or very large towns where the culture and mentality are very much city like compared to here. For me that doesn't help, because with so much access that online day ng affords with so much distance my profile gets dismissed by many potentials based just on that.

My personal experience with online dating has changed so much since the first time I tried it, and so have women.

Somewhat recently I put down 'hook ups', as an option of what I was looking for. The animal in me was open to the idea. I got all kinds of notifications that 'someone liked me, or notifications that I had a potential match. I realized what I think alot of women are realizing too over the course of all the change that is happening, that hooking up is not my cup of tea even if it seems like an okay thing in concept.

A couple of months ago a woman who was obviously just passing through here was checking me out hard at the gas station. When I was at the pump she rolled her window down and mouthed some words I didn't under stand so I was gesturing that I could jot hear or understand. She repeated a few times before in realized she was saying "do you want to hook up?", but then shed rolled up her window and took off. I could not believe it. Is this becoming normal?

If i put down in looking for love, or a LTR I get way less responses, but  I'm  actually surprised at some of the women who respond.

In my personal experience of this whole thing i think that my superficial appearance that they may be basing stereotypes on makes me seem more appealing for a one night stand or I also get hit up for threesomes with married type couples, but maybe not so desirable for an loving, monogamous LTR which is what I am seeking. I don't think I appear to others as I am.

I think women are getting used to certain types, and with so many potential matches they all have at their finger tips they categorize men into boxes in order to organize the whole process and narrow down their choices.

I don't fit in a box. I've got so many things about me that make me a very rare personality type, and am neurodivergent. With the hundreds of guys hitting up women daily on these apps many of them seem jaded, and unwilling to put any initial effort into it, and so it is the smooth talker who is just out to please himself that is getting all the attention from woman and who they are ending up putting in effort to get to know.

Women are getting more picky as someone already mentioned, but also with literally 1000s of men at their finger tips, they are also getting lazy, and curious about what else is out there. Many of them are becoming coming the personification of all that they used to complain about guys my whole life. I am 47. They are becoming as bad if not worse than the iconic "A**hole", typical male I heard about so much my whole life, but who I personally could never identify with.

To be clear, I do not mean that all women are this way. That is why I am saying, " many women".

So I rarely hit it off with any of my matches well enough to want to spend $40-$60 on gas to drive from 1.5-2.5 hours to go on a date, but I some times do.

Its depressing. Sometimes I will be chatting with a few women at once and get so diluted that I suddenly lose interest in the whole thing and all of them, and delete all my accounts for a few months and resign to loneliness.

A good match for me is a very rare wan indeed, and I've not run into her online yet.

Throughout my life I was always thought of as very attractive. I had gotten used to women approaching me and expressing interest and making an effort, and so the contrast of the combo of growing older, and what online dating has done, along with what I am actually looking for is difficult to adapt to, especially because the dating world is in so much constant flux.


This evolution that is happening though...I think about in a more natural setting, where we did not have giant pharmaceutical companies birth control so accessible, this cultural change would not, and could not be supported.

The pickyness would not be accessible because if people behaved this way without corporate BC there would be a lot of babies getting in the way of that cultural movement, and the pickyness would switch to an entirely different kind of man than the one who is going out on all the dates with these women.

I still wouldn't be that guy. I really font fit snugglybin any box.

I personally would like to have a baby with someone. I'm not dead set on it, but I know that I would. I'd be willing not to, but still would like an LTR. The age ranges I am open to is a much wider scope than what I generally look for. In general I think in terms of finding someone within my age group to 10 year's in either direction, but on the apps I extend it further in both directions because there is always the possibility of that one exception.

I have found that women from their late 20s to beyond have, and don't want children, or don't have and don't want children.

I'm a single parent, I homeschooled so recreational dating, or having a relationship with someone who wants to travel and go parachuting or bungee jumping all the time...not going to work. Not what I want.

My mind has always been in the 21st century, never conventional. I don't mean to say Imnyoung at heart or have a young mind; I have mature and sophisticated mind but my social views have always been more relatable to what the younger generations are coming to.

I was raised by a single woman and never saw myself as wanting to, and never saw the need to find a woman to get under my subjection as the man of the house. I've always wanted an equal relationship, but I am also a homebody, family oriented and would like a relationship that is centered around that.

I'm actually in the middle of talking to a few women on different apps as I type this. I'm actually putting in effort but just know that it will amount to nothing and go nowhere at all.

Its sad. Modern dating has made me feel isolated and lonely, but seems to promise so much access to finding true love.

Steve, This is exactly what I was thinking. It's always good to hear real life experience.

It appears to me like for a couple or few years now it is in a state of chaos (no negative connotation implied) trying to reach equilibrium.

It looks to me like a large railway system has been in place and functioning for quite some time. And one day, some people decided it could be improved upon and took it upon themselves to do it. Without a serious plan, they started tearing up some track, leaving others, adding others, building stations, bridges, etc. but neglected the fact that there were already trains in motion traveling all over. So now there are collisions, derailment, running off of cliffs and all kinds of chaos.

For many years now, many people have been working to create what they feel is a more fair or equitable system of dating for women. But there were already systems in place and now so many things have been randomly changed that there are many contradictions and hang-ups. One thing I'm seeing is that many people, particularly on the women's side, are doing things very differently, like women doing things traditionally done by men. This puts two trains trying to occupy the same track. And while they are doing some things differently, they are also trying to cling on to some of the old things, like a train trying to use new tracks with a different spacing than the old system, and also trying to use the old tracks too. As can easily happen, affording new benefits to one side can sometimes lead to an imbalance of power when the old system had benefits that might not have been so obvious.

An example I have seen is the old debate over whether it is the man's responsibility to pay for the date. In the old system, it was universally agreed that the man should. It's chivalrous, and back then a young woman (or girl) of dating age would likely not have had much money due to the way society was at the time. As times changed, there came a point where men and women were much closer socially, and most women took on much more independence and could pay. Many men saw the appeal of a woman paying her own way on a date. After all, equality is equality. But many of the women still insisted that the man pay. They wanted the new advantage of independence, while they still wanted the man to pay. Note this is not inherently wrong (as the balance before was not necessarily even), but it does upset the status quo.

There is a lot of talk about hook-up culture online. Here in rural Kentucky, I'm not seeing it anything like it seems to be happening in the cities. I don't see a whole lot of difference over the past 20 years. There have always been a fairly small number of people who got around, and I imagine probably about as many doing it discreetly that no one noticed. I do feel that society here is about 15-20 years behind what is going on in the bigger cities traditionally, but as the speed of societal change is accelerating (probably due to Moore's Law) I imagine it will speed up as well. It really concerns me that this would spring up so rapidly. As Hester mentioned, people have always had courtship rituals, and indeed virtually all animals do as well. I'm concerned that the sudden elimination of so much of the process is going to have a negative effect on society. It affects "pair bonding" from what I hear. Meeting, courting, and mating is a very complicated orchestra of chemical changes in the body. I have seen videos of some women professing that they truly believe that living a hook-up lifestyle has damaged the way their brains function. There are dating articles for women now telling them that when they meet a man they consider boyfriend material to make him wait an extended amount of time before allowing him sex. But all the while, if they have an itch that needs to be scratched, then by all means go out and hook up with random strangers as often as needed. So they end up constantly bonding chemically/mentally with random people while they are trying to bond with someone else with whom they are not even having sex. That's not the way nature has always worked, and it's no surprise that their brains would get confused and lose the ability to bond at all.

Not to mention the increased risk of STDs. I just did a quick search and the rise of hook-up culture may be further proven by the current, serious rise in STDs. https://www.webmd.com/sexual-conditions/news/20191008/std-rates-continue-to-rise-in-the-us#:~:text=TUESDAY%2C%20Oct.%208%2C%202019%20%28HealthDay%20News%29%20--%20STD,and%20chlamydia%20reached%20an%20all-time%20high%20in%202018. Looks like congenital syphyllis is up 40% since 2017, and record numbers of others as well.

In my personal experience of this whole thing i think that my superficial appearance that they may be basing stereotypes on makes me seem more appealing for a one night stand or I also get hit up for threesomes with married type couples, but maybe not so desirable for an loving, monogamous LTR which is what I am seeking. I don't think I appear to others as I am.

Sadly, scientific studies bear out your observations. When women look for a hook-up, they very often statistically approach a man with the stereotypical alpha/caveman look. Sharp brow ridges and jawline, strong, tall, etc. The research also suggests that this is the type of man women are drawn to at the peak of their heat cycle, while at other times or when looking for a more stable relationship they tend to prefer men with those same features, just softened and less extreme.

Many of them are becoming coming the personification of all that they used to complain about guys my whole life. I am 47. They are becoming as bad if not worse than the iconic "A**hole", typical male I heard about so much my whole life, but who I personally could never identify with.

This is exactly what I thought after watching all these videos! And I think it is a sort of intentional accident. Now, these videos are a skewed image of women. It does not represent the shyer women but rather the alpha females mostly who are bold enough to record their life and put it on the internet. I suspect that this push to make women as powerful and equal in the dating world as men has resulted in these women working to emulate the traditional stereotypical male enemy of women: the alpha male bad boy who often just wants to conquer women and move on to the next. It really makes sense of this queen culture we see becoming so prevalent.

I have also always wanted to have a child. My mind matured at an early age, and I can recall literally aching to have a child when I was just in middle school. I always dreamed of having a daughter. So many dreams...I think of all that could have been, but was lost. I almost lost myself. All because of how I look. And now at 40 I am at the point where I have to consider whether it would be ethical to try, and that's assuming I succeed at the Herculean task of finding someone with whom I am compatible who would give me a chance, which seems unlikely considering I haven't even been trying since my last betrayal almost two years ago. You are right; modern dating feels like such a farce. With all we have today, we should have the best chances in all of history to have the best relationships. I sometimes wonder if we have the worst.